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Old 10-29-2005, 09:20 PM   #1
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I mostly loved Buffy and Angel, but does anybody else think that Joss Whedon is incredibly over-rated? I haven't seen Firefly or Serenity, but I can't imagine being blown away. I'm not that confident about Wonder Woman either...

P.S. "Goal!" is mostly excellent since you get to see football players such as Shearer and Beckham attempting to "act", as well as places that I've been in Newcastle! Hurray!

P.P.S. "Howl's Moving Castle" is alright, but probably not the most coherent Miyazaki film to start on if you have no prior interest in the man. Watch the much more straight-forward "Spirited Away" first and see what you think, then go see Howl.
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Old 10-30-2005, 07:14 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scabb
I mostly loved Buffy and Angel, but does anybody else think that Joss Whedon is incredibly over-rated? I haven't seen Firefly or Serenity, but I can't imagine being blown away. I'm not that confident about Wonder Woman either...
Well, if anything, it's worth a look, mainly because it's different. I've seen a lot of mixed feelings about the movie, some say it's very very bad, some say very very good, and yes, there are those in the middle. At the end of the day, I didn't read a single review before going to see the movie and I enjoyed myself incredibly, this could be because I had already invested myself in the characters, but more than that, I know a good movie when I see one, and for me, this works in all the right places. Despite this being Joss's first time directing a film, it's not his first time writing a screenplay for a movie, something that he's proved to have done well before (Toy Story).

That said, I'm also not that confident about Wonder Woman, but that's only because the entire premise seems to be lost in todays society. The only way she can be taken seriously is if she's protrayed as some kind of icon for 'Female Power' or whatever, and that's not best done in 'those' types of outfits. Oh well, guess we'll have to wait and see.

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Old 10-30-2005, 10:13 PM   #3
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Ok, my Serenity Rant, Major Major Spoilers for those who haven't seen it (movie and show)...

spoiler:


I think I fall in the middle of the like it/hate it catergory. Because while overall it was a good story and very entertaining, I hated alot of the little things. (And a couple major things) First and foremost being the death of Wash, he was my favorite, that just really pissed me off that he got taken out like that. And I realize it builds the intensity or whatever, but still. (Although I do think I read at one point they were having toruble getting everyone back for the movie, so maybe he was a victim of that circumstance)

I also hated the killing of Shepard Book, his character in the show was set up to be obviously way more than he appeared to be, and yet his story is cut short in an instant in the movie, and you never really get to know what they seemed to be moving towards. (Although one of my friends made the suggestion that Book may have at one point been an Operative like the guy hunting River in the movie, which is an interesting thought) And on this note, why did he leave the ship and get his own little religious outpost place?

Also, why did they even bother to bring Anara in, she had basically zero role in the story, I think she was completely underused.

And how come as soon as River reaveled the truth about the Reavers to everyone she seemed to heal almost instantaneously? Maybe she didn't and she just wasn't on screen enough afterwards to show it.

And how come Jayne was again so much in favor of getting Simon and River off the ship, in the show after he tried turning them in, he seemed to have a change in attitude towards them. But then throughout the whole movie hardly any of the characters seemed to get along at all. They really did seem just like hired hands to Mal, instead of the more friendly familial relationships they all had on the show.

And when Simon was breaking River out he questioned that scientist guy so he would know a bit about what they had done to her. But on the show he had the crew hijack parts of a hospitol just so he could try and figure out anything that had been done to her.

I realize that's alot of complaints. But alot of those thing were bothing me during the movie. I did love alot of it, like actually getting to see the Reavers, and the opening that explained a bit about what had happened to Earth. And I know they had to try and make the movie completely stand alone from the show, but still. Maybe I just need a few days to process it and to see it again. But as of now I feel if the show hadn't been cancelled it would have turned into one of the greatest stories ever told, but with the cancellation and the changes to the actors that would happen were it to continue now, I'm not sure how I feel about it. Anyway, just my current thoughts.



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Old 10-31-2005, 01:45 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scabb
I mostly loved Buffy and Angel, but does anybody else think that Joss Whedon is incredibly over-rated? I haven't seen Firefly or Serenity, but I can't imagine being blown away. I'm not that confident about Wonder Woman either...
That's what I thought. I'd read some descriptions making mainly the 'western in space' statement. So it took some time until I downloaded an episode of Firefly (had to, since I can't watch US television).

I was blown away!

Now, I even love the cheesy theme song. "Take me out, to the black. Tell them I ain't coming back"...

One thing I learned some time ago: Never doubt Joss. Right now the thought creeps inside my brain that the first seasons of Buffy can't have been so good. It's been like that a lot of times and when I actually watch the series I questioned I _always_ wonder how I could.



I've watched Doom yesterday and have to say it was a good movie. Not more. It relied heavily on action/suspense/gore, but also tried to have some plot. If you liked Resident Evil or Mortal Kombat, you'll probably have no problem with this flick. Maybe they should have stuck with the hell theme, but that might have gone very wrong. Like those death metal bands who use (defaced) christian symbols to convey their evilness, they might have relied on religion too much. I recently searched for some metal cover art and have never seen so many angels...

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Old 10-31-2005, 05:50 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinkie
Ok, my Serenity Rant, Major Major Spoilers for those who haven't seen it (movie and show)...

spoiler:


I think I fall in the middle of the like it/hate it catergory. Because while overall it was a good story and very entertaining, I hated alot of the little things. (And a couple major things) First and foremost being the death of Wash, he was my favorite, that just really pissed me off that he got taken out like that. And I realize it builds the intensity or whatever, but still. (Although I do think I read at one point they were having toruble getting everyone back for the movie, so maybe he was a victim of that circumstance)
spoiler:
Apparently, he was one of the first back on, it's not as if he refused or anything. I think it's important in a certain sense that someone of the crew die (apart from Book) and since wash had served his purpose (I'm being insensitive, I know, he was also one of my favorite, if not my favorite character), it would be him. I guess a lot of people have mixed feelings about him dying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinkie
spoiler:

I also hated the killing of Shepard Book, his character in the show was set up to be obviously way more than he appeared to be, and yet his story is cut short in an instant in the movie, and you never really get to know what they seemed to be moving towards. (Although one of my friends made the suggestion that Book may have at one point been an Operative like the guy hunting River in the movie, which is an interesting thought) And on this note, why did he leave the ship and get his own little religious outpost place?
spoiler:

Mal need a good reason to go through the reavers and to Miranda, Books death did that for him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinkie
spoiler:
Also, why did they even bother to bring Anara in, she had basically zero role in the story, I think she was completely underused.
Agreed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinkie
spoiler:

And how come as soon as River reaveled the truth about the Reavers to everyone she seemed to heal almost instantaneously? Maybe she didn't and she just wasn't on screen enough afterwards to show it.
spoiler:
She didn't, at the beginning of the big fight she was back in her own world again, she didn't heal until Simon go shot, do with that what you will but that resonated with me a hell of a lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinkie
spoiler:
And how come Jayne was again so much in favor of getting Simon and River off the ship, in the show after he tried turning them in, he seemed to have a change in attitude towards them. But then throughout the whole movie hardly any of the characters seemed to get along at all. They really did seem just like hired hands to Mal, instead of the more friendly familial relationships they all had on the show.
spoiler:

I suppose I didn't get that, mal was a tad more insensitive than he was at the end of the series, But as for Jayne, he was perfect as Mal's Muscle who was also untrustworthy, but not too much, it worked brilliantly, even when book died

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinkie
spoiler:

And when Simon was breaking River out he questioned that scientist guy so he would know a bit about what they had done to her. But on the show he had the crew hijack parts of a hospitol just so he could try and figure out anything that had been done to her.

I realize that's alot of complaints. But alot of those thing were bothing me during the movie. I did love alot of it, like actually getting to see the Reavers, and the opening that explained a bit about what had happened to Earth. And I know they had to try and make the movie completely stand alone from the show, but still. Maybe I just need a few days to process it and to see it again. But as of now I feel if the show hadn't been cancelled it would have turned into one of the greatest stories ever told, but with the cancellation and the changes to the actors that would happen were it to continue now, I'm not sure how I feel about it. Anyway, just my current thoughts.

Fain enough on the whole front, you're entitled to your opinion.

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Old 10-31-2005, 03:58 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinkie

spoiler:


I also hated the killing of Shepard Book, his character in the show was set up to be obviously way more than he appeared to be, and yet his story is cut short in an instant in the movie, and you never really get to know what they seemed to be moving towards. (Although one of my friends made the suggestion that Book may have at one point been an Operative like the guy hunting River in the movie, which is an interesting thought) And on this note, why did he leave the ship and get his own little religious outpost place?

spoiler:


I just thought I'd throw this in the mix, my housmate Jim has, I think, figured Book out completely. He was an operative in the battle of serenity valley, but became dissolusioned in the aftermath much the same way that the operative in the film did. The only way he could deal with this was to turn to God. Book found his faith in the same place that Mal lost his. Very Joss Whedon.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinkie

spoiler:


And when Simon was breaking River out he questioned that scientist guy so he would know a bit about what they had done to her. But on the show he had the crew hijack parts of a hospitol just so he could try and figure out anything that had been done to her.

spoiler:


I don't think Simon knew precisely everything that they'd done to her, as far as the scientist folk knew he was just a government offical with no medical background so he wouldn't have got too many details off them - just a rough idea.



I'm taking this all far too seriously - I'm so sorry ...


You mean the way the sea stays steady as a rock and the buildings keep washing up and down? Yes I thought that was odd.
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Old 10-31-2005, 10:36 PM   #7
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Just a quick question about the Firefly DVD set - just got it today.

I think I read somewhere that the episodes were screened out of order on US television. Are they in the correct order on the DVD, or as screened?

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Old 11-01-2005, 04:08 AM   #8
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They're in correct order on the DVD, so, if like me, you'd never seen the show before getting the DVD, you'll see it in the intended order. Fox were idiots with it, they didn't like the 2 hour pilot so they almost forced Whedon and Minear to write a new pilot (The Train Job) over the weekend, needless to say, it did it's job expositionally, but it was a bad episode and didn't leave people wanting more like the original pilot would have. The 2 hour pilot was shown after Fox aired the 12 episodes that they did screen and after the show had been cancelled. The basic reason the show was cancelled was because of the show being shown out of order and therefore not reaching it's target audience (that, and some of the episodes were pushed back for the World Series, bloody Fox)

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Old 11-02-2005, 06:31 PM   #9
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Not only that, but it was aired on Friday nights during the football season so no one was home to watch them. That's always a death slot. I caught the first episode cause I taped it, but that proved to be inconvienient for me, so I never saw the others.


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Old 11-03-2005, 02:02 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshi
Fox were idiots with it, they didn't like the 2 hour pilot [...] needless to say, it did it's job expositionally, but it was a bad episode and didn't leave people wanting more like the original pilot would have.
It was also a bad move that they advertised the show like this:

A tough guy named Jayne! ("Just scare him a little." "Pain is scary.") A cosmic hooker! ("How's business?" "None of yours!") And a girl in a box! (River screams)

That would be a spoiler, which is bad enough. But since they didn't show the pilot, there wasn't even a "girl in a box". It's also pretty bad to reduce the characters to such basic descriptions.

Joshi, I started with The Train Job, but still loved it and wanted to see the other episodes.

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Old 11-03-2005, 04:35 AM   #11
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Well, to be honest, it was an alright episode (I loved parts of it, especially the final confrontation with Niska's Henchmen), but it wasn't a decent pilot, at least not as good as the original Pilot.

I read that Fox decided to put a voiceover on the beginning credits to introduce the characters, but that they were thankfully taken out of the DVD.

The fact that they showed the 2 hour pilot after the rest of the episodes was stupid, you didn't get the whole "Simon may be evil", "we don't know what's in the mysterious box", "is Kaylee dead" thing, I'm glad I watched it in order as it was just great for me.

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Old 11-03-2005, 10:34 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshi
Well, to be honest, it was an alright episode (I loved parts of it, especially the final confrontation with Niska's Henchmen), but it wasn't a decent pilot, at least not as good as the original Pilot.
There are some more scenes I like about it.
spoiler:
Jayne getting drugged. The following dialogue, depicting some of how Mal ticks:
Bourne: You were truthful back in town. These are tough times. A man can get a job, he might not look too close at what that job is. But a man learns all the details of a situation like ours, well then he has a choice.
Mal: I donít believe he does.
Can't think of more, but I liked the train caper as such...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshi
I read that Fox decided to put a voiceover on the beginning credits to introduce the characters, but that they were thankfully taken out of the DVD.
I sometimes missed the voiceover on the DVDs. It was spoken by Mal, later by Book (great voice!). They didn't introduce the characters, but described the situation:

Mal: Here's how it is: The Earth got used up, so we moved out and terraformed a whole new galaxy of Earths. Some: rich and flush with new technologies. Some: not so much. The Central Planets, them was formed the Alliance, waged war to bring everyone under their rule; a few idiots tried to fight it, among them myself. I'm Malcolm Reynolds, captain of Serenity. She's a transport ship, Firefly class. Got a good crew: fighters, pilot, mechanic. We even picked up a preacher, for some reason, and a bona fide companion. There's a doctor, too, took his genius sister out of some Alliance camp, so they're keeping a low profile, you understand. You got a job? We can do it. Don't much care what it is.

Book: After the Earth was used up, we found a new solar system and hundreds of new Earths were terraformed and colonized. The central planets formed the Alliance and decided all the planets had to join under their rule. There was some disagreement on that point. After the War, many of the Independents who had fought and lost drifted to the edges of the system, far from Alliance control. Out here, people struggled to get by with the most basic technologies; a ship would bring you work, a gun would help you keep it. A captain's goal was simple: find a crew, find a job, keep flying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshi
The fact that they showed the 2 hour pilot after the rest of the episodes was stupid, you didn't get the whole "Simon may be evil", "we don't know what's in the mysterious box", "is Kaylee dead" thing, I'm glad I watched it in order as it was just great for me.
100% acknowledged.

EDIT: corrected Mal's intro as good as I could. Also I got the order mixed up, Book was first, Mal second.


Last edited by Alien426; 11-03-2005 at 02:08 PM.
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Old 11-03-2005, 12:02 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien426
I sometimes missed the voiceover on the DVDs. It was spoken by Mal, later by Book (great voice!). They didn't introduce the characters, but described the situation:

Mal: Here's how it is: Earth got used up, so we terraformed a whole new galaxy of Earths, some rich and flush with new technologies, some not so much. Central Planets, them was formed the Alliance, waged war to bring everyone under their rule; a few idiots tried to fight it, among them myself. I'm Malcolm Reynolds, captain of the Serenity. Got a good crew: fighters, pilot, mechanic. We even picked up a preacher, and a bona fide companion. There's a doctor, too, his genius sister from some Alliance camp, so they're keeping a low profile. You got a job, we can do it, don't much care what it is.

Book: After the Earth was used up, we found a new solar system and hundreds of new Earths were terraformed and colonized. The central planets formed the Alliance and decided all the planets had to join under their rule. There was some disagreement on that point. After the War, many of the Independents who had fought and lost drifted to the edges of the system, far from Alliance control. Out here, people struggled to get by with the most basic technologies; a ship would bring you work, a gun would help you keep it. A captain's goal was simple: find a crew, find a job, keep flying.
Now you see, most of this information, I got from the movie, I suppose if the series had carried on I'd have gotten most of this information as and when it was needed. I also a got a heap load of info from the Serenity Visual Companion (well worth a buy, half the books a detailed interview with Whedon, the second half, the entire shooting script, complete with deleted scene of Inara at the temple, and then every now and then a few details on shooting and the history before serenity and so on).

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Old 11-05-2005, 05:20 PM   #14
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I watched the pilot episode (the real pilot episode) for Firefly today. It was great! Usually I tend to sigh and look at my watch a lot when I'm trying to get into a new programme, but not today.

The mind boggles how they didn't use this as the pilot on TV. It seemed to set everything up really well. I'll have to wait until The Train Job episode I suppose...


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Old 11-23-2005, 08:23 AM   #15
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I think I read somewhere that Serenity is set five years after the end of Firefly. That means there's still lots of untold stories in the Firefly universe (including Book's) which can be gone back to if they make another series/movie or whatever. It would also explain the difference in attitudes (although I didn't notice anything myself, but I haven't seen the film since I watched the series).

Anyone know what's next for Firefly/Serenity? The DVD extras are so depressing as they were recorded before the film was greenlit, and everyone is lamenting how they'll never be able to get back to that universe again... thank god they did! I don't know how fans of the series managed to survive when the series was first cancelled!

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Old 11-23-2005, 09:19 AM   #16
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I just watched all the Firefly dvd's.

My god its good.

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Old 11-23-2005, 12:20 PM   #17
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Serenity is set 6 months after 'Objects in Space' (the last episode of Firefly). My sources include the official visual companion and the book of the movie. Everything that happens between Objects in Space and Serenity is set to be chronicled in this graphic novel (can't find this in the UK store, which is kinda annoying, but not too much, I'm sure some obscure online comic book retailler will ship it...or play.com).

Nice little aside, if you listen to the audio commentary for 'Out of Gas' (my favorite episode by far) you'll hear that Alan Tudyk stole the button that mal needed to hit to call his crew back and sent it to Joss (confirmed by Tudyk in the episode commentary for 'The Message') telling him to hit it when Joss found his miracle (To bring back firefly in some form). I always thought that was cool.

As for the difference in attitude with the characters, which I had also noticed, if you read the official novel, based on the movie (written by Keith DeCandido) it explains a lot (also a really good read), but frankly, you don't need it to enjoy the movie anymore, only if you're confused at people's attitudes in the movie in relation to the end of the TV show, and frankly, if you care enough then you'd enjoy the book anyway.

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Old 11-23-2005, 12:34 PM   #18
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Does it really sum up their changed attitudes? Maybe I should look into it.


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Old 11-23-2005, 01:16 PM   #19
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Well, it has more of an insight into the thought processes of each character, each scene is played through the mind of each character and sometimes through really minor characters. This helps sum up various thoughts. A lot of the TV series in integrated into the book to make it a bit richer. Although Jayne's attitude isn't really explained much except to say, for enough money, or to save his own neck, he would rat out Simon and River as that's just in his character.
The rest though, like Mal (well, only Mal seems to have had the complete change of heart from the series) are looked into as to why he's so cold towards the Doctor, and really, it's nothing more than conflict due to circumstances. When in the movie he says to Simon "I look out for me and mine, that don't include you less I conjure it does", he says it because he needs River on this job and wants to get Simon out of his way, but otherwise, like in the series, he would probably think of them as part of his crew, like when he takes River after her bar fight.

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Old 11-26-2005, 11:14 AM   #20
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Any idea when the movie comes out on DVD? I'm kinda feeling like I need to see it again. The more I think about it the more I think I may have liked it more than I originally realized. This time I'll be expecting the darker edge (and will not be in the worst drive in movie theatre known to man)


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Old 11-26-2005, 05:42 PM   #21
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Thanks for the info Joshi! That's really interesting about the book. That quote from Mal (which I obviously didn't pick up on as I hadn't seen the series then) is very out of character... weird! I'm guessing they hardened up his character a bit for the people who had never seen Firefly before (like they did in the pilot when Mal was first introduced). I wonder if there might be a more 'canonical' edit of the movie in the future?

Serenity DVD is out on December 20th in the US.

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Old 11-28-2005, 06:07 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderPeel2001
Thanks for the info Joshi! That's really interesting about the book. That quote from Mal (which I obviously didn't pick up on as I hadn't seen the series then) is very out of character... weird! I'm guessing they hardened up his character a bit for the people who had never seen Firefly before (like they did in the pilot when Mal was first introduced). I wonder if there might be a more 'canonical' edit of the movie in the future?
The book pretty much puts it down as a circumstance thing, Mal is very much about the job at hand, and at that time, he really wanted the doctor out of his face (remember, he doesn't really like the doc that much, but he still thinks of him as a member of his crew) so that he could take River with him.

But yeah, they probably did harden him up a bit for the movie, more than anything to convey Mal's character and what he's all about.

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