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View Poll Results: Who think these ideas will be more realisted than the current non free will system?
yes:I want ultimate real Jedi Knight experiance with free will. 21 33.33%
no:I want the computer to do all the work, I don't want freedom in combat. 42 66.67%
Voters: 63. You may not vote on this poll


Thread: D20 system intergrated in realisted combat mode for KOTOR III !
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Old 11-11-2005, 05:14 AM   #1
Windu Chi
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Thumbs up D20 system intergrated in realisted combat mode for KOTOR III !

When I posted last time with the thread, ''realisted combat or D20''.I did"nt realise the importance of D20 system to realism in a game like KOTOR. So with time to think of the usefullness of the D20 system, I came to the realization that by combing D20 with free will combat it will make a exceptional Jedi Knight game concerning the combat portion of the game. Well I imagine this combination will work like ; in a combat situation if you swing your weapon to hit the enemy at a specific region on their body d20 will determine if you will hit that area or miss that specific area, but in a consitent realisted effect ,base on the combat levels/other skills ;defense, offense(this should be a included attribute in KOTOR III) dexterity, strength, intelligence ( this will determine how good your character can use the combat skills and adapt those skills) for a specific combat situation) and wisdom( this determines what right combat skills to use in the combat situation) you aquire/learn in the game that will determine the outcome in a specific combat situation.

Also I hope the developers READ this post to include these ideas, because I believe this make a great game that will have a big return.

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Old 11-11-2005, 09:47 AM   #2
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I, and I think you will find many others, do not want any twitch based combat systems in the KOTOR series.

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Old 11-11-2005, 09:57 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
I, and I think you will find many others, do not want any twitch based combat systems in the KOTOR series.
Prime is right here. I don't think anybody wants the combat system from KotOR to be changed, only enhanced.


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Old 11-11-2005, 11:51 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
I, and I think you will find many others, do not want any twitch based combat systems in the KOTOR series.
Same here. I think that your system is even worst than your JK idea, because in JK when you hit you kill, but if it was like your new idea its hitting a lot of times and 'missing' even though you took off someone neck.


Let's kill ourselves.
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Old 11-11-2005, 12:44 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
I, and I think you will find many others, do not want any twitch based combat systems in the KOTOR series.
As the others, I agree with Prime. There's a charm by the KotOR battle system. And It should never change, it may improve, but the setup itself MUST not change!


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Old 11-11-2005, 01:49 PM   #6
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How many more of these damn threads about changing combat to the crappy Jedi Academy one in KOTOR are we going to get?

Please close this...
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Old 11-11-2005, 02:03 PM   #7
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HA! & it's still the same loaded question.....

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Old 11-11-2005, 02:05 PM   #8
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A little bit better Windu6, but still- it sucks. At least you didn't start calling the combat system names, but still, the whole idea is just a different method of making it a button mashing game. Stick with it, just the way it is. I don't really care if it changes one singe bit.
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Old 11-11-2005, 11:54 PM   #9
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I have to agree with the others any sort of "realisted" combat in KOTOR III would be really bad...

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
So with time to think of the usefullness of the D20 system, I came to the realization that by combing D20 with free will combat it will make a exceptional Jedi Knight game concerning the combat portion of the game.
Pure RPG's are not FPS or action games, they are not supposed to require button mashing or tests of reflexes to progress the storyline.

The D20 system will never allow, by it's very nature, for any sort of 'realisted' combat system that you seem to desire. This is not going to happen... I'm sorry but lets leave Jedi Academy gameplay to Jedi Academy, and KOTOR gameplay to KOTOR.

It seems to me that many of you need to realize the roots of the RPG... I hear countless posters whining about poor graphics and wanting "flashy" visuals, and fluid animations.

RPG's are at their core tabletop PnP style games converted to be playable on a PC, they are not known for graphics, they are very primitive dialogue driven games that have never been known for their eyecandy. Many of the RPG's in history only allowed movement in 4 directions, and combat was a poorly animated pixelated monster appearing on the screen in front of you and combat would be just numbers on some part of the screen, you might never even see your PC, let alone any combat animations.

NWN, the Baldurs Gate Games, and others of their like, came along and gave us some nice(r) eyecandy, until KOTOR came along and spoiled us with all that it had... now like ol' Oliver Twist some of you are now asking for "more" instead of just being glad for what you have.

Just my 2 cents!


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Old 11-12-2005, 12:08 AM   #10
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Wow, this poll is made to play on people's feelings about freedom...

No, no changes please. Ugh, I do agree with Vlad, things are getting annoying with the number of these threads...


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Old 11-12-2005, 12:57 AM   #11
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what luke and vlad said basically.

If you so want Jedi Knight style gaming go get the damn JK2 and JK3 -_-...







... I got em XD



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Old 11-12-2005, 02:07 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
I, and I think you will find many others, do not want any twitch based combat systems in the KOTOR series.
Count me in here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Moeller
Prime is right here. I don't think anybody wants the combat system from KotOR to be changed, only enhanced.
Not many of us do anyway. I just want enhancements as well. New and multiple animations for standard and special attacks etc. would be an order.
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Old 11-13-2005, 01:05 AM   #13
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If I want to play a twich shooter I'll load an FPS or go play a platformer. I play RPG's for the story not to button mash
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Old 11-13-2005, 02:11 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawke
The D20 system will never allow, by it's very nature, for any sort of 'realisted' combat system that you seem to desire. This is not going to happen... I'm sorry but lets leave Jedi Academy gameplay to Jedi Academy, and KOTOR gameplay to KOTOR.
Sorry to break up everyone's ideas, but the biggest D20 game ever to be realised, the biggest epic, will have some different and fresh ideas. I'm talking about "Dungeon and Dragons Online", based on Eberron set. It will implement a mixed system. All the rules still apply, but now if you want your character to do something (and your group to work togheter) you'll have to take a decision and do it yourself. Like blocking an attack, when blocking your shield defense still determines if you're succesful or not, but now your character will not block by default, so the bonus defense provided by your shield will apply only when you make effective use of it.
I think that the same system should be applied to all the others D20 games, not to make it more realistic, because it will never be realistic, but to make it more dinamyc and interactive, just my opinion, but the system is suffering changes.
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Old 11-13-2005, 04:10 AM   #15
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I think the system used in both KOTOR's works pretty well. I'm not in the slightest convinced that it needs this sort of "improvement" <spits>. The system isn't broken and doesn't need to be fixed in this fashion.
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Old 11-13-2005, 04:46 AM   #16
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Well, with a JKA system exactly this is not gonna happen:
If you yourself direct your swings there will only very occasionally be any sort of parrying/dueling, simply because you cannot do a precise hit or block using a PC mouse/keyboard/controller.
I prefer "realistic"/good-looking combat over challenging combat.
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Old 11-13-2005, 05:15 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulforged
Sorry to break up everyone's ideas, but the biggest D20 game ever to be realised, the biggest epic, will have some different and fresh ideas. I'm talking about "Dungeon and Dragons Online", based on Eberron set. It will implement a mixed system. All the rules still apply, but now if you want your character to do something (and your group to work togheter) you'll have to take a decision and do it yourself. Like blocking an attack, when blocking your shield defense still determines if you're succesful or not, but now your character will not block by default, so the bonus defense provided by your shield will apply only when you make effective use of it.
I think that the same system should be applied to all the others D20 games, not to make it more realistic, because it will never be realistic, but to make it more dinamyc and interactive, just my opinion, but the system is suffering changes.
Sorry to burst your bubble there Soulforged, but this game you are referring to "Dungeon and Dragons Online" isn't a "pure" SP RPG or D20 game, it is a hybrid system made for MMORPG PvP online play with an increased twitch factor that is undesirable for most in a SP RPG.

So that won't work... and wouldn't be a KOTOR game anyway... while a future SW RPG might integrate these features, I don't see it happening as it would take away from the D&D MMORPG by doing so.


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Old 11-13-2005, 08:12 AM   #18
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it doesn't need to be changed. I don't mind it being enhanced to be a little more realistic. I haven't had any problems with the first two so why would it need tampering. As the old saying goes 'if its not broken don't fix it.'
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Old 11-13-2005, 07:52 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawke
Sorry to burst your bubble there Soulforged, but this game you are referring to "Dungeon and Dragons Online" isn't a "pure" SP RPG or D20 game, it is a hybrid system made for MMORPG PvP online play with an increased twitch factor that is undesirable for most in a SP RPG.
Yes I know that. But I must tell you this: the same thing happened when Baldur's Gate came out (ie old users complaining), a bad critic to the system of real time playing. With the time all users have adapted themselves to this system. The same thing might happen again, and to be honest with you I'll like to see it, at least to be a little more interactive. Just think for a moment, if you're improving your character to be more skillful in combat, because that's the major part of the game, it will be great to at least have a more interactive system, apart of being more inclusive for others to join in the fight. Now I don't agree with a change of the rules, but I don't agree either with this kind of "throw your character in, and let him do the work". The only way in wich I may be able to accept it as a complete adventure, will be the case where the major part will involve character development aside of fighting. But that's no going to happen: 1st- because the industry of Star Wars Games is tending to the children demand, not to a more adult one (thus the simplicity of the plot, and the hack'n slash feeling that at least I had with both Kotor Games, not so with Baldur's Gate), 2nd- because it seems that it's better to throw a game to the market quickly, than to really develop it, and I'm not talking about bugs, I'm talking about plot, integration of rules, interaction system, variety of items and characters (and worlds) and diversity of customization. All this elements are shining for their ausence right now.
Quote:
So that won't work... and wouldn't be a KOTOR game anyway... while a future SW RPG might integrate these features, I don't see it happening as it would take away from the D&D MMORPG by doing so.
Oh I don't see it happening either (see post above), but at least I see a change in the MMORPG world based on the same set of rules.
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Old 11-13-2005, 09:43 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
I, and I think you will find many others, do not want any twitch based combat systems in the KOTOR series.
Agreed.

I don't care how people try to justify turning into a twitch game, I don't like it as a twitch game.


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Old 11-14-2005, 02:30 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulforged
the same thing happened when Baldur's Gate came out (ie old users complaining), a bad critic to the system of real time playing. With the time all users have adapted themselves to this system. The same thing might happen again, and to be honest with you I'll like to see it, at least to be a little more interactive.
As you can tell I am with the group that thinks the system is fine as it is. I, and many others, have no problems with the way things are presented. Adding any sort of reflex based features for the game is a negative. Believe it or not, some people who play these KOTOR games cannot even beat the Turret Mini-Game, these people would be left in the proverbial dust with the addition of 'twitch combat' features.


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Old 11-14-2005, 03:06 AM   #22
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i, like pretty much all my friends who've played it really dont like the combat system. It's too boring and samey for such an important part of the game.
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Old 11-14-2005, 09:35 AM   #23
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I think it would be cool if combat in Kotor 3 was kind of like the combat style of Star Wars Episode 3: The Video Game. If it were like that, you would fight as a Jedi waaaayyyy better, you could actually jump behind opponents and gut them, engage in the sickest light saber battles and fight pretty similar to Yoda, and Anakin Skywalker.
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Old 11-14-2005, 03:41 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darth_yanstrol
I think it would be cool if combat in Kotor 3 was kind of like the combat style of Star Wars Episode 3: The Video Game. If it were like that, you would fight as a Jedi waaaayyyy better, you could actually jump behind opponents and gut them, engage in the sickest light saber battles and fight pretty similar to Yoda, and Anakin Skywalker.
That's not how RPG combat works, though. It's not about "simulating actual lightsaber combat", it's about your character's stats versus his opponent's stats by invisible dice rolls.

To change the combat would be to change what KOTOR is about. KOTOR is NOT a twitch game. People who insist it needs to be changed to one should just stick to action games since RPGs obviously don't appeal to you if you're going to complain about something that is synonimous with RPGs.


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Old 11-14-2005, 03:50 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawke
Believe it or not, some people who play these KOTOR games cannot even beat the Turret Mini-Game,
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha; Can't even beat the Turret Mini-Game; Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha.
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Old 11-14-2005, 06:12 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawke
As you can tell I am with the group that thinks the system is fine as it is. I, and many others, have no problems with the way things are presented. Adding any sort of reflex based features for the game is a negative. Believe it or not, some people who play these KOTOR games cannot even beat the Turret Mini-Game, these people would be left in the proverbial dust with the addition of 'twitch combat' features.
Fair enough Hawke, I'll keep on "revolutionary mod". Though you misunderstood me, I don't want to change anything of the rules, just maybe add a little more animations to make it less repetitive. It would not be really a reaction system, when you play this game usually you pause it and plan your actions (of course like this game is so easy it's really unnecessary, but again, with BG I had to do that), the same will be with the system that I'm planning (well the system already exists it only has to be implemented), is not a reactionary system, is the same but more interactive, more planning, and more thinking from the user's part.
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Old 11-14-2005, 07:07 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
i, like pretty much all my friends who've played it really dont like the combat system. It's too boring and samey for such an important part of the game.
So instead of going and playing JK you come here to say that you want to ruin other peoples fun?


Let's kill ourselves.
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Old 11-15-2005, 12:48 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha; Can't even beat the Turret Mini-Game; Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha.
I don't think that's funny in the least Vlad, it is actually quite sad!

This was a big issue, and you should have heard the praises for Darth333 and her Easy Turret Mini-Game mod.

+10 DS points for Vlad!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulforged
Though you misunderstood me, I don't want to change anything of the rules, just maybe add a little more animations to make it less repetitive. It would not be really a reaction system, when you play this game usually you pause it and plan your actions (of course like this game is so easy it's really unnecessary, but again, with BG I had to do that), the same will be with the system that I'm planning (well the system already exists it only has to be implemented), is not a reactionary system, is the same but more interactive, more planning, and more thinking from the user's part.
While that's cool and all, I would much rather have the other parts of the game worked on.

How about having the story be engrossing and fully fleshed out, leave nothing cut out, and have the effects of your DS or LS decisions be seen by you in the game.

Example: Onderon in TSL, if you sided with the DS faction (Vaklu), or the LS faction (Talia), when you returned to the Onderon afterward you would be treated by a unique cinematic, and see the effects of what you have done. With DS the city of Iziz would have been a depressed place with much suffering, while LS the city would be cheerful and rejoicing.

Also I would rather the features they already began to implement be fully fleshed out, like the Influence system, when you convert a LS NPC to the DS their responses would change to evil ones, or the opposite with DS NPC's converting to the LS. I would rather have engrossing storylines, humor, and fully fleshed out NPC's with side-quests, and goals so as to actually make me have an attachment to them. Also they need to work on the random item drops. These are the types of features I want to see improved with the game, to heck with the combat!


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Old 11-15-2005, 01:56 AM   #29
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I have to agree with Redhawke. This kind of game is about the story. The graphics don't have to be the very latest. The story needs to be really solid. That is what really makes a great CRPG.
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Old 11-15-2005, 02:26 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hallucination
So instead of going and playing JK you come here to say that you want to ruin other peoples fun?

Did i say ruin the game? i really dont remember saying that. Combat, especially lightsaber combat is an integral part of who jedi knights are, what i want is something more than "click.....click......click...", its uninspired and gets really tiresome.

It doesnt have to be twitch combat, but who says just because a game is an RPG game it has to have non-existant combat? Look at Jade Empire: fantastic story, great graphics, also INSPIRED, rpg skill dependant combat, but there's more to it than just clicking from a variety of slightly varied attacks that look exactly the same every time.

Yes, these games are about story, but the truly great games are those that can have greatness in all aspects of the game. Deus Ex, for example, is an RPG game, the focus is on story, and it has a brilliant story, but the combat is dependant on your skill levels, you dont have to be great at First Person Shooters to enjoy the complex, inspired storyline and great characters and immersive atmosphere.

by NO means am i saying this game should be like jedi knight, jedi knight is terrible, the gameplay (ironically) doesnt capture jedi combat well at all. At least, i dont remember luke and vader running around like headless chooks swinging their lightsabers frantically hoping they might hit something.
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Old 11-19-2005, 04:04 PM   #31
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keep d20 system because of one main reason

the kotor series is an rpg based game.....play the star wars live action rpg game and it incorporates the D20 system into, plus the kotor series has already been made with the D20 system so to change now, it would just be like making a whole different star wars game.
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Old 11-19-2005, 05:40 PM   #32
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@Manny C: You don't have to change the game to an FPS to ruin peoples fun, you just have to take out the part that people have fun on.


Let's kill ourselves.
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Old 11-19-2005, 07:51 PM   #33
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well ur right hallucination, but from what people are saying, that's the story and the characters, not the combat system. The combat system is tedious, i know plenty of people who feel the same way, i know people who've given up on the game because of the combat system. You can improve the combat system to make it more interactive without even touching the story. Also i never said make it FPS, FPS is too far away from the current system and it wouldnt work changing it that much. What im saying is make it something like Jade Empire, in which you have far more control over the combat but it still hinges for the most part on your skill levels.
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Old 11-19-2005, 07:58 PM   #34
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how would jade empire be a D20 system? i cant see that, because all i did in jade empire was jump over people and attack them from behind.
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Old 11-19-2005, 10:35 PM   #35
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@Manny C: But think about the people who like the D20 system.


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Old 11-20-2005, 02:23 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
but from what people are saying, that's the story and the characters, not the combat system. The combat system is tedious, i know plenty of people who feel the same way, i know people who've given up on the game because of the combat system.
Tedious? I think not! The "classic" RPG's that many of us know and love would thusly drive you and your 'freinds' crazy then, becuse combat is only a means to an end in all of them, and combat is nothing more than numbers on the screen in some of those very "classics". Even the newer NWN, which KOTOR is based on, looks far more primitive compared to KOTOR. In all actuality KOTOR has spoiled the RPG world rotten, and any people who think differently about that are much akin to the character Oliver Twist asking for "more?" when we should all just be thankful for what we got.

Sorry to differ with your appraisal, but the combat system in KOTOR and TSL is one of the best that a 'pure' RPG has ever presented...

Lastly if the "tedious" combat made someone quit the game, then I submit to you that RPG's are not their cup of tea, and they should move on to a game more suited to their tastes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
You can improve the combat system to make it more interactive without even touching the story.
Combat, while part of the expirience, is not the major focus of an RPG... since the story, it's NPC's, and our choices and influence on the game world is the main focus, the game developers would be better served to spend their energies on those aspects.

Combat is used to futher the story, and grant the party some expirience along the way... also to find loot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
What im saying is make it something like Jade Empire, in which you have far more control over the combat but it still hinges for the most part on your skill levels.
Nope, Jade Empire is a Martial Arts RPG, and while it is entertaining, it's 'twitch' factor due to it's handling of combat limits it's playability by 'pure' RPG fans... and all those who cannot handle "twitch" games, especially for long sessions. I can play KOTOR for upwards of 12 hours straight, but with Jade Empire I hit my limit at around 4 hours, this is due to the 'twitch' combat factor.

It is clear to me Manny C that you have a love of 'twitch' style games, and since you liked KOTOR you want to add that element you love to the game to make it 'perfect' in your eyes, I can respect that... just you do have to adknowledge that there are others don't like those kinds of additions.

Unfortunately, though all this is a moot discussion, being KOTOR is a D20 game, it is bound by the D20 rules, and thusly classifies as a 'pure' RPG, so you will not get your wish. We likely will get some new animations/eye-candy, but the combat will remain the same or similar "tedious" Turn-Based Combat system that we have played in KOTOR and TSL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Engma48
how would jade empire be a D20 system? i cant see that, because all i did in jade empire was jump over people and attack them from behind.
Exactly, it is a totally different system and game... what works with one game will not work with all games.


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Old 11-20-2005, 04:19 AM   #37
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You pose a good argument RedHawke, but I think the difference of opinion stems from a confliction in our tastes in games. There is clearly a fanbase who, insane as i think it is, have grown accustomed to no more involvement in combat than a few possible actions which have the same animation over and over and over....but i digress.

My love of kotor, and rpg's in general has stemmed from the dwindling popularity of adventure games, and a subsequent shift into the closest thing still in fashion, so ive never been one for mind numbing tedium.

My opinion is that the game would be better served by being more all-rounded and making the combat more interesting and interactive, giving combat more depth as it should be in a game about jedi, instead of restricting it to the same, boring process over and over just to keep the unflexible RPG veterans happy. Games should be EVOLVING, ever improving and becoming enjoyable in ALL aspects, instead of restricting the game and its fan base in order to appease a small portion of the consumers.
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Old 11-20-2005, 06:13 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
You pose a good argument RedHawke, but I think the difference of opinion stems from a confliction in our tastes in games. There is clearly a fanbase who, insane as i think it is, have grown accustomed to no more involvement in combat than a few possible actions which have the same animation over and over and over....but i digress.

My love of kotor, and rpg's in general has stemmed from the dwindling popularity of adventure games, and a subsequent shift into the closest thing still in fashion, so ive never been one for mind numbing tedium.

My opinion is that the game would be better served by being more all-rounded and making the combat more interesting and interactive, giving combat more depth as it should be in a game about jedi, instead of restricting it to the same, boring process over and over just to keep the unflexible RPG veterans happy. Games should be EVOLVING, ever improving and becoming enjoyable in ALL aspects, instead of restricting the game and its fan base in order to appease a small portion of the consumers.
I appreciate your feelings on this matter, but the best you can hope for in KOTOR III would be that they could add additional animations to spice up the combat, but it will remain the same slow "select the attack from the menu" turn-based system we have now. That is because KOTOR is a correct depiction of the PnP D20 system.

'Pure' RPG's. like D20 KOTOR, are not really meant to be enjoyable in your "ALL aspects" either, they are, at their core, cerebral tests, not tests of dexterity and adrenaline, and you are talking about adding just that.

Lastly, the so called "unflexible RPG veterans" are not a "a small portion of the consumers" as you seem to think, you seem to underestimate just who these games are made for, and what type of people they cater to.

Look above in this threads posts, and browse this section of the forums, you will eventually see that you are definately in the minority on this issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
I, and I think you will find many others, do not want any twitch based combat systems in the KOTOR series.


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Old 11-20-2005, 06:33 AM   #39
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the combat in kotor is unique im sick of games that are essentialy clones of other games


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Old 11-20-2005, 04:45 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawke
Lastly, the so called "unflexible RPG veterans" are not a "a small portion of the consumers" as you seem to think, you seem to underestimate just who these games are made for, and what type of people they cater to.

I fully agree with this statement.
There is an evolution of the genre, but evolution does not mean changing everything.
Of all the actual RPGs, KotOR has one of the best combat system.

Look at some Japanese RPGs, mainly the Final Fantasy serie. Stand at point x, move towards enemy, attack, return to point x.
It's even more horrendous then KotOR, yet there's less whining about it. Why? Great story and characters, just like KotOR.

It's like some heretics who dare say that Civ should be made into an RTS. The serie of Civilization games are management games so combat isn't the main focus, just like real RPGs.

Or even better, Rainbow Six doesn't have enough fast-paced action. It's not supposed to have fast-paced action.
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