lfnetwork.com mark read register faq members calendar
View Poll Results: Who think these ideas will be more realisted than the current non free will system?
yes:I want ultimate real Jedi Knight experiance with free will. 21 33.33%
no:I want the computer to do all the work, I don't want freedom in combat. 42 66.67%
Voters: 63. You may not vote on this poll


Thread: D20 system intergrated in realisted combat mode for KOTOR III !
Thread Tools Display Modes
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Old 11-20-2005, 09:52 PM   #41
Manny C
 
Manny C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Australia: the Tatooine of the real world
Posts: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawke
the best you can hope for in KOTOR III would be that they could add additional animations to spice up the combat, but it will remain the same slow "select the attack from the menu" turn-based system we have now. That is because KOTOR is a correct depiction of the PnP D20 system.
I would settle for this. Having far more animations, different animations for different lightsaber forms, more interesting attacks, stuff like that i would be perfectly happy with. Truth is i dont mind the combat system that much, ive gotten used to it, but i would prefer more diversity, diversity that feeds into the game as your character becomes more skilled and faces more skilled opponants so that everything isnt seen and done in the first 10 hours of the game.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawke
Lastly, the so called "unflexible RPG veterans" are not a "a small portion of the consumers" as you seem to think, you seem to underestimate just who these games are made for, and what type of people they cater to.

Look above in this threads posts, and browse this section of the forums, you will eventually see that you are definately in the minority on this issue.


in a forum like this, of course im in the minority, but i think ull find kotor has a much wider audience than you think, that's how its been so successful, and the majority of the gaming community nowadays is the more casual gamer who plays games for the fun of it, and wont venture onto forums like this.
Those sorts of players are the sorts who get bored with the combat and will not bother anymore, and they really do take up the majority of gaming consumers nowadays.

Although im not gonna fuss and complain if they dont change the combat system, the games are too bloody awesome to not play them on account of a mildly boring combat system, i just think the game would benefit from a more interactive system, as it wouldnt affect the story or anything negatively, and it would draw in more customers.
Manny C is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-20-2005, 11:35 PM   #42
lukeiamyourdad
Using Teletraan I
 
lukeiamyourdad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Montréal, Québec, Canada
Posts: 8,274
LFN Staff Member 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
Those sorts of players are the sorts who get bored with the combat and will not bother anymore, and they really do take up the majority of gaming consumers nowadays.
If this is true, how come both games were financial successes?
After KotOR 1, people who would get into the sequel were mostly players of the first game, at least, that's what a sequel usually attracts, then they knew what was waiting, the same old D20 system.

Another combat system will affect the game. It's a definite negative for pretty much everyone.
What I think you refer to as "casual gamer", is the generation of FPS players, the more "action" oriented gamers. They're not every single gamer. The Sims, a franchise who has basically no "action", is among the most succesful.
Again, Final Fantasy, who has a horrible combat system, is wildly popular and having kept the same old turn based system they had years ago, with minor modifications is still a financial success.

You have to realize that the market is not composed of one type of gamer who needs "x" kind of gameplay. The gaming market is extremely vast and complicated and you cannot simplify it and say, if there's more action, it will sell better.
Certain games appeal to certain people.

My take on why some of these people were unhappy with the combat system is:

a) They don't know what an RPG is all about and assumed that it was like JK;

or

b) They bought the game because it had "Jedi" and "Star Wars" on the box.


We cannot qualify somebody as "the average gamer". What is the "average gamer"?
The guy who's not a hardcore gamer?
In Korea, it could be the RTS and MMORPG player. In the US, it could be the GTA player, in England, it could be the Pro-Evolution player.
Is there a genre representing the average gamer? No.
Is there a definition of average gamer, accepted by everyone? No.
Is he male?
What age group?

I think what your defintion is, it's someone who plays video games for fun, but doesn't know about mods, doesn't post on forums and usually owns a console.
What does that mean?
Nothing.

Does the "average gamer" play action games only?

There is no way you can accurately answer those questions.

Until then, you cannot pose a judgement on the whole gaming community and say:"If we make this type of game, we'll sell more." Simply because it is totally false. There are trends, I won't deny it, but it comes and goes. A few years ago, it was RTS, right now, FPS, in a few years, we'll see.
lukeiamyourdad is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-20-2005, 11:43 PM   #43
OptimalOptimus
Rookie
 
OptimalOptimus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 37
I Voted NO. I want the Computer to do the Combat moves.. its' liek watching a Fight in a moive.. Or it could be if the had More combat moves. & the battles lasted longer.

There needs to be combat Styles for each The PC & NPCs

combat moves for Each weapon
combat moves for each Jedi
Jumps, Flips, dodges , Blocks, Brute Force moves. Force Jumps

I want to see Better Force moves.. things that you can really tell what the force has changed ot help you.
OptimalOptimus is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-21-2005, 12:26 AM   #44
Hallucination
Baron von Sexy
 
Hallucination's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,875
Current Game: HKO closed beta
Another point for the D20 system: KOTOR is about travelling in a party. If you had it like Jade Empire, a real-time system, or JA, how are you going to control 3 people at once?


Let's kill ourselves.
Hallucination is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-21-2005, 01:40 AM   #45
Manny C
 
Manny C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Australia: the Tatooine of the real world
Posts: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
If this is true, how come both games were financial successes?
After KotOR 1, people who would get into the sequel were mostly players of the first game, at least, that's what a sequel usually attracts, then they knew what was waiting, the same old D20 system. .
Because they're such great games in all other aspects, the story and characters give the player motivation to continue playing, and this is the continued reason for their success. I can assure you, gamers do NOT play kotor for its combat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Another combat system will affect the game. It's a definite negative for pretty much everyone.
What I think you refer to as "casual gamer", is the generation of FPS players, the more "action" oriented gamers.
Ok i think there's something big that you've got mixed up here, the term "casual gamer" is not a genre specific term at all, in fact it really has nothing to do with genre, it has to do with the gaming habits of the consumer. the "casual gamer" plays a game for the entertainment value of the game, pure and simple. If a game is too complicated, too boring or too tedious, it's likely that the casual gamer wont be interested in it for very long. The "hardcore gamer" (hate that term, isnt appropriate to what its describing) is one who plays games more often, and has a greater appreciation for the details of a game, and thus tends to have more patience for a game's smaller failings in order to appreciate it as a whole.

From this perspective, the "casual gamer" will not see KOTOR's combat system as a "pure RPG" because they don't really know what that is, what they do know, is that the style of combat inhibits their control over the action and is more of the same thing over and over. Someone like myself, however, who is not necessarily an RPG veteran, but knows how it works, etc, can appreciate that the combat system goes with the genre and i will put up with it.

By NO MEANS am i saying the average gamer is immediately put off because it doesnt have a real time, action combat system, what I'm saying is that more gamer inclusive combat system in which the gamer takes a larger role in the action portrayed is more likely to make the combat enjoyable to the average player.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
My take on why some of these people were unhappy with the combat system is:

a) They don't know what an RPG is all about and assumed that it was like JK;

or

b) They bought the game because it had "Jedi" and "Star Wars" on the box.
lol you tell me not to generalize, but that looks like a pretty big generalization to me. To some extent, it's true but it doesnt portray the whole picture. Yes, the person who doesnt like the combat system is probably likely to not fully appreciate the workings of an RPG, however, it's more the fact that the combat seperates the player from the action on screen. They don't like the fact that they have absolutely no control over whats happening save for a choice of what move to choose. This, and the fact that "jedi" does tend to relate to notions of combat skill, crazy lightsaber technique, and "starwars" tends to relate to awesome blaster battles and shootouts. It's also the fact that the combat will ALWAYS be the same, in a more realistic setting, combat changes depending on your environment, your weapon, your enemy, everything basically, no one fight is ever the same. These factors in an RPG merely alter the numbers upon which your chances of success are dependant.



Considering the "average gamer" point is a fairly small part of what i was saying earlier is kind of frustating. Just like a forum to so effectively go off in a tangent.
Manny C is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-21-2005, 01:44 AM   #46
Manny C
 
Manny C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Australia: the Tatooine of the real world
Posts: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hallucination
Another point for the D20 system: KOTOR is about travelling in a party. If you had it like Jade Empire, a real-time system, or JA, how are you going to control 3 people at once?
That's actually a really good point, I hadn't thought of that. The only real solution to something like that would be to make it like Xmen Legends, in which your other party members simply run like an AI and you control whichever one you want.
Manny C is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-21-2005, 02:05 AM   #47
OptimalOptimus
Rookie
 
OptimalOptimus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 37
WEll think about this.. IF Jotor 3 is built on X-box 360 wich i'm sure it will be.. There could be up to 500 NPCs in teh game.. all with A.I.

SO a party size might to up to 4 NPCs & the enemies would be larger as well.

A.I. , longer battles, more NPCs, larger maps to explore.. Open universe Kotor,

Other ships in the game you could Buy .. Ebon Hawk & others .. OR jsut buy upgrades.

As for Combat i want to see Movie style camera moves. i want to be able to do 360 camera move while in combat,
OptimalOptimus is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-21-2005, 02:20 AM   #48
lukeiamyourdad
Using Teletraan I
 
lukeiamyourdad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Montréal, Québec, Canada
Posts: 8,274
LFN Staff Member 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
Because they're such great games in all other aspects, the story and characters give the player motivation to continue playing, and this is the continued reason for their success. I can assure you, gamers do NOT play kotor for its combat.
Exactly, so what's the point in changing the system then?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
Ok i think there's something big that you've got mixed up here, the term "casual gamer" is not a genre specific term at all, in fact it really has nothing to do with genre, it has to do with the gaming habits of the consumer. the "casual gamer" plays a game for the entertainment value of the game, pure and simple.
And "hardcore gamers" don't?
I never said it has anything with genre specifics, more that the term "casual gamer" engulfs a lot of gamers and you cannot equate them to button mashers. Again, The Sims is a popular success, yet has no "action".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
If a game is too complicated, too boring or too tedious, it's likely that the casual gamer wont be interested in it for very long. The "hardcore gamer" (hate that term, isnt appropriate to what its describing) is one who plays games more often, and has a greater appreciation for the details of a game, and thus tends to have more patience for a game's smaller failings in order to appreciate it as a whole.
It goes for hardcore gamers too. We do take more attention to detail, but when a game is boring, it's boring. I don't see how you can equate "hardcore gamer" with boring games. That simply isn't true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
From this perspective, the "casual gamer" will not see KOTOR's combat system as a "pure RPG" because they don't really know what that is, what they do know, is that the style of combat inhibits their control over the action and is more of the same thing over and over. Someone like myself, however, who is not necessarily an RPG veteran, but knows how it works, etc, can appreciate that the combat system goes with the genre and i will put up with it.
You underestimate the "casual gamer". I know plenty of casual gamers who have played the Final Fantasy serie and enjoyed very much, even with the horrible combat system.

FF is a bigger success then KotOR and yet, still uses the same old combat system.
One does not need to be an RPG veteran or to know them to enjoy and RPG. Casual gamers are smarter then you make them sound like.
What you refer too specifically are the button mashers and more action oriented types of gamers. Nothing to do with your definition of "casual".

Also, I forgot to point out that KotOR attracts a LOT of female gamers, unlike other games. Look at the Battlefront, JK.net and Republic Commando forums. No females or only a very small number (2-3).
Here, on an RPG forum, we have a very large (compared to other places) female population.
From certain comments gathered from them, twitch gaming isn't what they're looking for in KotOR.
We can conclude that KotOR does seem more interesting for women, in general.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
By NO MEANS am i saying the average gamer is immediately put off because it doesnt have a real time, action combat system, what I'm saying is that more gamer inclusive combat system in which the gamer takes a larger role in the action portrayed is more likely to make the combat enjoyable to the average player.
I repeat again, Final Fantasy is a popular success with a much worse combat system.
It doesn't have to be "full control" for people to enjoy. This has been proven with many popular serie.
Like I say, you're putting the "average gamer" in a single basket, the one labelled "we like action-oriented" games.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
lol you tell me not to generalize, but that looks like a pretty big generalization to me. To some extent, it's true but it doesnt portray the whole picture. Yes, the person who doesnt like the combat system is probably likely to not fully appreciate the workings of an RPG, however, it's more the fact that the combat seperates the player from the action on screen. They don't like the fact that they have absolutely no control over whats happening save for a choice of what move to choose.
Then it's not their cup of tea obviously. Every RPG is about choosing what your move should be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
This, and the fact that "jedi" does tend to relate to notions of combat skill, crazy lightsaber technique, and "starwars" tends to relate to awesome blaster battles and shootouts.
True, to some extent. Perhaps for kids who only saw the PT, it would relate to those notions only, but for OT lovers it would be different, but you do have a point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
It's also the fact that the combat will ALWAYS be the same, in a more realistic setting, combat changes depending on your environment, your weapon, your enemy, everything basically, no one fight is ever the same. These factors in an RPG merely alter the numbers upon which your chances of success are dependant.
Thus, why we need to improve upon the already existing system. This "realism" is also dependant on player skills. If the person is bad, he's just bad.
I know people who can't play an FPS because they really do suck.
RPGs are a good gateway for them and having the genre "evolve" into action won't be good for everyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
Considering the "average gamer" point is a fairly small part of what i was saying earlier is kind of frustating. Just like a forum to so effectively go off in a tangent.
Actually, it is a bigger part then you think. A more "realistic" combat system is made for "average gamers" to enjoy, which is what your claim is all about.
lukeiamyourdad is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-21-2005, 03:04 AM   #49
RedHawke
Shadow Lord Of The Sith™
 
RedHawke's Avatar
 
Status: Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Stormreach CA.
Posts: 9,184
Current Game: DDO, Stormreach
^^^^
I have to agree with LIAYD here Manny C!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
i just think the game would benefit from a more interactive system, as it wouldnt affect the story or anything negatively, and it would draw in more customers.
This view likely stems from a misunderstanding on your part... while yes, to do as you are implying would draw in a few new players, but it would alienate many more in your core audience than you would possibly bring in... not a good choice with any business venture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
From this perspective, the "casual gamer" will not see KOTOR's combat system as a "pure RPG" because they don't really know what that is, what they do know, is that the style of combat inhibits their control over the action and is more of the same thing over and over. Someone like myself, however, who is not necessarily an RPG veteran, but knows how it works, etc, can appreciate that the combat system goes with the genre and i will put up with it.
Now we are getting somewhere...

Let me explain to you what 'pure' RPG means, and a little about them; (And what new RPG players like yourself can expect from them) It basically has to do with any RPG made that is based off of a Paper and Pencil Role Playing System, KOTOR is based off of Wizards of the Coast D20 system. And is a damn fine reproduction of that system, IMHO. This means that the game has certain built-in restrictions beforehand, restrictions of the system itself, and so it will have issues with some players, like yourself, because the PnP systems are not meant to give fluid or interactive combat, they are typically meant for slowly plotting moves out with lead or pewter miniatures on either a hex or square grid. Movement during combat in most all RPG systems is either to close with an enemy to engage, or to run away, it is no matter though because any movement after combat is initiated incurrs severe penalties to your character, usually loss of inititive or attack penalties. The game system itself is what dictates the look of the combat, and while you only 'see' very little in the way of ducking/blocking and such, behind the scenes there is a lot of die rolls and numbers flowing. While new animations can help this somewhat, it will still be basically the same.

This is the way 'pure' RPG's work, they are always less visually stunning compared to say a FPS, or Hybrid RPG's, and as I have previously stated KOTOR broke a lot of ground in giving a 'pure' RPG some real visual enhancements.

What I am trying to say is when you see a label like D20 or D&D on a RPG game, you should then expect to have a slower paced "cerebral" game... I only bought KOTOR because of the D20 label, telling me that it isn't a "twitch" game, it is a game you play to relax, have some munchies, and a good relaxing time cursing and reloading your save game because you just got a bunch of wrong alignment points in a dialogue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
By NO MEANS am i saying the average gamer is immediately put off because it doesnt have a real time, action combat system, what I'm saying is that more gamer inclusive combat system in which the gamer takes a larger role in the action portrayed is more likely to make the combat enjoyable to the average player.
Sorry, but these kinds of 'pure' RPG's cater to a broad pre-existing RPG audience, and while they do try to appeal to as many players as they can, the additions you are talking about would alienate a large part of the core RPG audience simply to placate a very small 'new player' minority.

I find your usage of "average player" to be inappropriate, like you attribute "people who like action games" as a majority, in this assumption you are sadly mistaken. But LIAYD has stated roughly what I would on that, so I will leave that one alone.

In the end your "action based" suggestions, while they are quite alright, they are simply out of place in 'pure' RPG's that have their own rules to follow.


"Beware the form-fitting black armor-clad Drow hottie with twin Mineral II Greensteel Khopeshes!"
"Liella d'Orien says, '"You're the fool, Devil. -- Witness the power of this fully ARMED and OPERATIONAL Titan!"'"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
RedHawke is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-21-2005, 03:38 AM   #50
Manny C
 
Manny C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Australia: the Tatooine of the real world
Posts: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Exactly, so what's the point in changing the system then?
Because changing the combat system isnt touching the things that are great about kotor, the things i mentioned are related to the characters, the world, the story, NOT the combat.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
"casual gamer" engulfs a lot of gamers and you cannot equate them to button mashers.
never did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
It goes for hardcore gamers too. We do take more attention to detail, but when a game is boring, it's boring. I don't see how you can equate "hardcore gamer" with boring games. That simply isn't true.
again, i never did, you're twisting my words. I said "hardcore gamers" have more patience for tedious aspects of a game because they have a greater appreciation of the better aspects and will endure frustration more than the casual gamer who will simply switch off the console and go do something else rather than put up with something frustrating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
You underestimate the "casual gamer". I know plenty of casual gamers who have played the Final Fantasy serie and enjoyed very much, even with the horrible combat system.
That's because of Final fantasy's great story and characters, like the kotor series. Have i missed something? i dont really remember saying casual gamers wont play a game because of a poor combat system, i remember saying the game will appeal more to the average gamer if it had a realistic, more interactive combat system, and that some people give up on it because they get sick of the combat system, but where are you drawing these generalizations from?


Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
One does not need to be an RPG veteran or to know them to enjoy and RPG. Casual gamers are smarter then you make them sound like.
What you refer too specifically are the button mashers and more action oriented types of gamers. Nothing to do with your definition of "casual".
quote me where i say "button mashers" please. I said that the pure RPG combat system seperates the player from the action, and that it is tedious, which requires patience, which, in the case of computer games, the "casual gamer" generally has less of than the hardcore gamer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Also, I forgot to point out that KotOR attracts a LOT of female gamers, unlike other games. Look at the Battlefront, JK.net and Republic Commando forums. No females or only a very small number (2-3).
Here, on an RPG forum, we have a very large (compared to other places) female population.
From certain comments gathered from them, twitch gaming isn't what they're looking for in KotOR.
We can conclude that KotOR does seem more interesting for women, in general.
interesting observation mate, one i would hypothesise is because it's more cerebral and doesnt necessarily have the male-centred appeal of a testosterone-appeasing violent shooter. However i dont see the relevance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
I repeat again, Final Fantasy is a popular success with a much worse combat system.
It doesn't have to be "full control" for people to enjoy.
I repeat yet again, games can still be enjoyable without a good combat system, they're just more fun when they do.


Like I say, you're putting the "average gamer" in a single basket, the one labelled "we like action-oriented" games.




Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Then it's not their cup of tea obviously. Every RPG is about choosing what your move should be.
no im not! If you look over every one of my posts, not once did i say that it hadnt to be an action game style interface. All ive said is that the current combat system is TEDIOUS and samey, I've suggested more control over the combat this DOESNT mean "it should be first person shooter" or "hack and slash" or "button masher", what it DOES mean is that the player should be given exactly what it states, MORE CONTROL OVER THE COMBAT, ie, more than 3 or 4 moves to choose from, more diversity in lightsaber forms, some sort of input into defence like "attempt counterattack" or something like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Actually, it is a bigger part then you think. A more "realistic" combat system is made for "average gamers" to enjoy, which is what your claim is all about.
No, my claim is that making the combat system more realistic makes the game
A: more accessible because the player is more involved in the game
B: allows for more diversity, thus breaking the tediousness of the same animations over and over and over again, making things more interesting (THIS is where the average gamer remark - yes, it was actually a simple remark to begin with - is in context. The "casual gamer" would be drawn in by the fact that the combat ISNT TEDIOUS)
C: Reduces frustration, the player has more control over the events, so they dont have to just sit back and watch their people get butchered because they've got bad stats, they actually have some control over whats happening. And i know ur about to say "what about the PLAYERS who suck" thats what we have different difficulty levels for.
Manny C is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-21-2005, 03:45 AM   #51
Manny C
 
Manny C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Australia: the Tatooine of the real world
Posts: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawke
^^^^

I find your usage of "average player" to be inappropriate, like you attribute "people who like action games" as a majority, in this assumption you are sadly mistaken. But LIAYD has stated roughly what I would on that, so I will leave that one alone.
What the hell! i never said the majority of gamers are action gamers, lukeiamyourdad SAID i said that but i didnt. I said a large portion of gamers are the "casual gamer" who have less patience for tediousness, i dont know what that has to do with action games.
Manny C is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-21-2005, 04:38 AM   #52
RedHawke
Shadow Lord Of The Sith™
 
RedHawke's Avatar
 
Status: Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Stormreach CA.
Posts: 9,184
Current Game: DDO, Stormreach
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
What the hell! i never said the majority of gamers are action gamers, lukeiamyourdad SAID i said that but i didnt. I said a large portion of gamers are the "casual gamer" who have less patience for tediousness, i dont know what that has to do with action games.
Sorry, but you did indeed say just what I said your statement... I'll repost it and my reasoning here to clairify things...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
By NO MEANS am i saying the average gamer is immediately put off because it doesnt have a real time, action combat system, what I'm saying is that more gamer inclusive combat system in which the gamer takes a larger role in the action portrayed is more likely to make the combat enjoyable to the average player.
I am saying your usage of "average player" in this part of your statement is inapproriate. RPG's are made for the widest audience of most all types of computer games, so if any game could be considered to cater to an "average player" it would be an RPG.

This statement "what I'm saying is that a more gamer inclusive combat system in which the gamer takes a larger role in the action portrayed is more likely to make the combat enjoyable to the average player" does indeed lead one to come to the conclusion that I did, because you are saying that the "average player" average being a majority, that the majority of players are action style game players, because the average player will want these "gamer inclusive combat" based features, I read that as action. This is how I took your statement, hence my reasoning.

I hope this explains what I meant.


"Beware the form-fitting black armor-clad Drow hottie with twin Mineral II Greensteel Khopeshes!"
"Liella d'Orien says, '"You're the fool, Devil. -- Witness the power of this fully ARMED and OPERATIONAL Titan!"'"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
RedHawke is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-21-2005, 04:43 AM   #53
Manny C
 
Manny C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Australia: the Tatooine of the real world
Posts: 179
lol ok fair enough, but, i did say in my last post:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
If you look over every one of my posts, not once did i say that it hadnt to be an action game style interface. All ive said is that the current combat system is TEDIOUS and samey, I've suggested more control over the combat this DOESNT mean "it should be first person shooter" or "hack and slash" or "button masher", what it DOES mean is that the player should be given exactly what it states, MORE CONTROL OVER THE COMBAT, ie, more than 3 or 4 moves to choose from, more diversity in lightsaber forms, some sort of input into defence like "attempt counterattack" or something like that.
Manny C is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-21-2005, 04:48 AM   #54
RedHawke
Shadow Lord Of The Sith™
 
RedHawke's Avatar
 
Status: Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Stormreach CA.
Posts: 9,184
Current Game: DDO, Stormreach
^^^^


But to answer your statement please re-read my Post #49, specifically the middle part explaining 'pure' RPG's... that is why you cannot have those features, by the games very design.

Like I said before, some new combat animations are likely, but nothing like you are asking for, it just isn't allowed in the D20 rules... sorry.


"Beware the form-fitting black armor-clad Drow hottie with twin Mineral II Greensteel Khopeshes!"
"Liella d'Orien says, '"You're the fool, Devil. -- Witness the power of this fully ARMED and OPERATIONAL Titan!"'"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
RedHawke is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-21-2005, 05:06 AM   #55
Manny C
 
Manny C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Australia: the Tatooine of the real world
Posts: 179
yeah i know about how RPG's work, i play Vampire the Masquerade which uses a similar system.

I think it could easily be improved using the D-20 system. Defence for example, they could include counterattacks,

you could include chain attacks, acrobatics (leap out of battle, like an opposite of the force jump), grapples, saber locks, disarms/weapon destroy (should be able to destroy the other person's sword with a saber, ie, have non cortosis weave weapons, as cortosis weave wouldnt actually be used in every single melee weapon like it is in the previous kotor games), throws, maybe even more intereseting death animations, like saber dismemberment or something similar, all sorts of things like that could work in the D20 system. In fact, saber locks is a good example of where a D20 system would be better than the typical action game button mash.
Manny C is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-21-2005, 06:26 AM   #56
RedHawke
Shadow Lord Of The Sith™
 
RedHawke's Avatar
 
Status: Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Stormreach CA.
Posts: 9,184
Current Game: DDO, Stormreach
^^^^
Those features you state are not part of D20 rules proper, so they cannot be used. It is actually out of the scope of the D20 rules to do most of those things you state. There might be a couple of exceptions in your list, but the penalties incurred wouldn't be worth it to use them.

See, the rules would have to be made up beforehand and balanced by WotC, they are the ones who have the final say in anything released with the D20 label, and many of the things you mentioned are not capable of being done in the D20 system, remember D20 is being hyped as an all-in-one game system, so additions at this time to the basic core rules are not going to happen, for reasons of balance.

As far as your misgivings about Cortosis weapons, this was needed as the NWN D20 system is a Fantasy based system, as such it doesn't allow for lightsabers, or damaging an opponents weapon. There are no rules for this. So an excuse was needed to explain why people with melee weapons could go toe-to-toe with a saber wielding opponent.

Also about dismemberment, again the majority of us don't want it, there are threads asking about it around here, also note that if the game included dismemberment it would have an appropriate more mature rating. KOTOR and TSL are Teen rated games, so this means KOTOR III will be too, so this is also not going to happen.

EDIT: While I do understand what you want to accomplish, it is just out of the scope of this type of game to give you these things.

EDIT II: Let's go over them a little more carefully...

Counterattacks & Chain Attacks & Grapples & Saber Locks... do not exist within the D20 system, and it cannot be modified to include these types of things either, in the D20 system combat is 'I attack your defense, then you attack mine'... nothing more can be done, as it is basically D&D.

Acrobatics... Your idea of "(leap out of battle, like an opposite of the force jump)", your leaving combat gives your opponent an attack of opportunity against your base defense (No Dex Bonus), basically a free easy attack on you. It is do-able yes, but... Why? Oh why would you ever want to do such a thing?

Disarms/Weapon Destroy... I already addressed the impossibility of the Weapon Destroy issue, Disarms on the other hand could be implemented, but it is not a standard rule of D20, it is a "House Rule" if I'm not mistaken, and is only limited to special Classes or attack forms. This one is do-able, but should be an optional rule at best... Why? Not everyone likes Disarm Rules.

More Death Animations... this is just something in an additional feature that seems too bloodthirsty to most people. What they have currently is rather tasteful, believe me much testing went into this.

Saber Dismemberment... I also already went into this before, but simply put the games rating is Teen, to add this would raise that rating, and LA has stated they want these games to be a Teen rating, so this bloodthirsty feature, thankfully will not happen either.


"Beware the form-fitting black armor-clad Drow hottie with twin Mineral II Greensteel Khopeshes!"
"Liella d'Orien says, '"You're the fool, Devil. -- Witness the power of this fully ARMED and OPERATIONAL Titan!"'"
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Last edited by RedHawke; 11-23-2005 at 02:46 AM.
RedHawke is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-21-2005, 12:46 PM   #57
lukeiamyourdad
Using Teletraan I
 
lukeiamyourdad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Montréal, Québec, Canada
Posts: 8,274
LFN Staff Member 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
Because changing the combat system isnt touching the things that are great about kotor, the things i mentioned are related to the characters, the world, the story, NOT the combat.
Though it might not change them directly, the overall experience will see it itself changed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
again, i never did, you're twisting my words. I said "hardcore gamers" have more patience for tedious aspects of a game because they have a greater appreciation of the better aspects and will endure frustration more than the casual gamer who will simply switch off the console and go do something else rather than put up with something frustrating.
Do they?

I'm not twisting your words. Look at this post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
If a game is too complicated, too boring or too tedious, it's likely that the casual gamer wont be interested in it for very long. The "hardcore gamer" (hate that term, isnt appropriate to what its describing) is one who plays games more often, and has a greater appreciation for the details of a game, and thus tends to have more patience for a game's smaller failings in order to appreciate it as a whole.
I think you lower the casual gamer again. Casual gamers have different attitudes. It's not because he's "casual" that he's going to switch off the console at the first sign of difficulty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
That's because of Final fantasy's great story and characters, like the kotor series. Have i missed something? i dont really remember saying casual gamers wont play a game because of a poor combat system, i remember saying the game will appeal more to the average gamer if it had a realistic, more interactive combat system, and that some people give up on it because they get sick of the combat system, but where are you drawing these generalizations from?
Generalizations? What generalization? I'm not saying that you claim that nobody would play the game because of its poor combat system, just that the statement that it will appear more to "casual" gamers simply isn't true.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
quote me where i say "button mashers" please. I said that the pure RPG combat system seperates the player from the action, and that it is tedious, which requires patience, which, in the case of computer games, the "casual gamer" generally has less of than the hardcore gamer.
RedHawke answered it, but I'd like to add something.
I'd like to bring up the adventure game genre. It's a small niche market of games that require mostly patience and observation skill.
Does it mean there's only hardcore gamers? Absolutely not. It's a style that attracts one type of gamer, certainly not a "hardcore gamer style".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
interesting observation mate, one i would hypothesise is because it's more cerebral and doesnt necessarily have the male-centred appeal of a testosterone-appeasing violent shooter. However i dont see the relevance.
Oh it does. If we lose appeal to some action minded players, we'll gain it in the women gamers community.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
I repeat yet again, games can still be enjoyable without a good combat system, they're just more fun when they do.
Of course it is. Now, this becomes a matter of taste does it? Since you're definition of "good" and "fun", probably differs from other people and mines does too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
no im not! If you look over every one of my posts, not once did i say that it hadnt to be an action game style interface. All ive said is that the current combat system is TEDIOUS and samey, I've suggested more control over the combat this DOESNT mean "it should be first person shooter" or "hack and slash" or "button masher", what it DOES mean is that the player should be given exactly what it states, MORE CONTROL OVER THE COMBAT, ie, more than 3 or 4 moves to choose from, more diversity in lightsaber forms, some sort of input into defence like "attempt counterattack" or something like that.
Those are all improvements upon the existing system, but adds no to little realism.
TSL has already improved upon it, the next time, more can be done.
I'm more interested in your definition of "control". You claim more control, but you want the same system that basically makes you choose your moves. Now what is it?
In my mind, more control is actually controlling the lightsaber/blaster and with my mouse or controller, use it to hit my enemy who will take damage depending on where I hit him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
No, my claim is that making the combat system more realistic makes the game
A: more accessible because the player is more involved in the game
B: allows for more diversity, thus breaking the tediousness of the same animations over and over and over again, making things more interesting (THIS is where the average gamer remark - yes, it was actually a simple remark to begin with - is in context. The "casual gamer" would be drawn in by the fact that the combat ISNT TEDIOUS)
C: Reduces frustration, the player has more control over the events, so they dont have to just sit back and watch their people get butchered because they've got bad stats, they actually have some control over whats happening. And i know ur about to say "what about the PLAYERS who suck" thats what we have different difficulty levels for.
A) No, I don't think it will be more accessible, in general. It might be for a certain group of people.
B) Have you played TSL? There was a lot more then the same animation over and over and over again like in K1. We can improve upon that. As far as I know anyway, the combat wasn't as "tedious" as you claim.
C) I can't do **** on DDR at easy.
Anyway, what would be the point of a level system then? That's what every RPG has been about, from the hack-n-slash Diablo to NWN.
Bad stats you die man, that's what an RPG is all about.
lukeiamyourdad is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-21-2005, 04:59 PM   #58
rhinomatt
Rookie
 
rhinomatt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 80
theres too many fighting games the KOTOR saga is NOT about fighting skill!


"the dark side leads to death and destruction but the lightside leads no where!"
rhinomatt is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-21-2005, 05:05 PM   #59
SITHSLAYER133
Junior Member
 
SITHSLAYER133's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: wouldnt u like to no sickos
Posts: 310
maybe new animations but no changing if i want free fighting lightsaber i will play jk3


People in life Should Be given A single Choice where do they want to be Shot!
SITHSLAYER133 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-21-2005, 10:29 PM   #60
Manny C
 
Manny C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Australia: the Tatooine of the real world
Posts: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Though it might not change them directly, the overall experience will see it itself changed.
This is true, but its a matter of opinion as to whether its for the better or worse. HOWEVER, it does not change the script, the characters, the locations or anything such as this which make KOTOR games great. The combat system cant take away these exulting traits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Do they?
yes. Dont pose a rhetorical question unless you offer something to back up your intended side of the argument, it's bad rhetoric.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
I think you lower the casual gamer again. Casual gamers have different attitudes. It's not because he's "casual" that he's going to switch off the console at the first sign of difficulty.
again, i never said they "switch off the console at the first sign of difficulty". If something is long winded, and a chore to play, then they are LESS LIKELY to endure it because their elasticity of enjoyment is much greater than the "hardcore" gamer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
I'd like to bring up the adventure game genre. It's a small niche market of games that require mostly patience and observation skill.
Does it mean there's only hardcore gamers? Absolutely not. It's a style that attracts one type of gamer, certainly not a "hardcore gamer style".
its interesting you should bring up the adventure games, and you have a good point, adventure gamers certainly arent "hardcore gamers", are usually more mature and don't necessarily play other types of games, however, i think its interesting to note the decline of adventure games, yes they are certainly still around but there's no denying that they've been on a downward slope over the past 10 years, and the crowd who play them nowadays tends to be a fairly specialist consumer group. "Monopolistic competition" if you will.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Oh it does. If we lose appeal to some action minded players, we'll gain it in the women gamers community.
gee, now there's a pretty baseless, generalized comment, and right after

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Generalizations? What generalizations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Of course it is. Now, this becomes a matter of taste does it? Since you're definition of "good" and "fun", probably differs from other people and mines does too.
definately 100% true, but here you're getting two seperate arguments mixed up. My opinions, and the opinions of a fair number of people i know who've played the kotor games (typically not genre specific people, these guys+girls play action games, adventure games, survival horror and a few RPGs) are that the combat is fairly tedious, and as a starwars fan, and a hell of a fan of lightsabers and jedi, I would like to see more control given to the player.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Those are all improvements upon the existing system, but adds no to little realism.
uh... im not completely sure but im gonna assume you meant "but adds little to realism", which is wrong. Simply by being given more options, you immediately have more CONTROL over your characters, thus meaning you have a greater range of choices of what you would do in that situation. Being given the choice to either attack, use a force power, use a grenade is less realistic than being given the choice to attack, retreat, prepare to counterattack the next enemy attack, throw the enemy, use a force power or use a grenade.
I hope that clarifies things for you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
I'm more interested in your definition of "control". You claim more control, but you want the same system that basically makes you choose your moves. Now what is it?
In my mind, more control is actually controlling the lightsaber/blaster and with my mouse or controller, use it to hit my enemy who will take damage depending on where I hit him.
.
Clearly you have misunderstood me from the beginning, so I'll explain it again.
KOTOR's combat currently gives the player a certain degree of control over the characters, by which i mean to say, you can choose what you want them to do to a certain extent. In my opinion, and relative to other games i have played, this is to a fairly small degree. I cannot attack two enemies at once with my lightsaber, I cannot effectively leap out of battle, i cannot use cover during a firefight, I cannot throw a grenade to a destination other than exactly where an enemy is standing. Based on these sorts of things, my opinion is that the control is fairly SMALL.

While your take on control is fair enough, that is in my opinion more like complete control. Naturally, as redhawke has make pretty clear, as well as hall, that wouldnt really work in a D20 game like kotor. I still think the D20 rules arent THAT inflexible, you could easily alter things to make room for extra moves and options.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
A) No, I don't think it will be more accessible, in general. It might be for a certain group of people.
.
matter of opinion. To people unfamiliar with the workings of RPG's, it would most definately make it more accessible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
B) Have you played TSL? There was a lot more then the same animation over and over and over again like in K1. We can improve upon that. As far as I know anyway, the combat wasn't as "tedious" as you claim.
again thats a matter of opinion. The combat only changed when u learnt a new move, and there were only like 3 for melee and 3 for ranged. After that it was always the same. In my opinion, the same 3 moves throughout a 40 hour game is tedious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Anyway, what would be the point of a level system then? That's what every RPG has been about, from the hack-n-slash Diablo to NWN.
Bad stats you die man, that's what an RPG is all about.
I dont like that i have no influence, combat should be more than that, it should be fun and detailed, as it should be in a game about jedi.


btw, whats DDR?
Manny C is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-21-2005, 11:43 PM   #61
Eagle Racer
Rookie
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 56
As far as the battle engines goes, I would really like to be able to see a big lightsable battle like it the movies if you just sat and let the game go in a battle, without all the little pauses between "moves" or "turns". If you want time to give oders or whatever that what the pause botton is for. Other than that I would say leave it the way it is. For freedom of movement I'll go play Battlefront 2. Just my 2 cents worth.
Eagle Racer is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-21-2005, 11:49 PM   #62
Manny C
 
Manny C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Australia: the Tatooine of the real world
Posts: 179
i havent played battlefront 2, looks awesome tho. Whats the jedi control like?
Manny C is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-21-2005, 11:51 PM   #63
Clone L68362
Forumite
 
Clone L68362's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Totally lost
Posts: 554
Ya know guys, a simple explanation of why this would suck would be:

The whole point of an RPG is for you to choose the most logical abilities for your characters so they get more powerful. If combat were controlled by the player, stats, powers, and the meat of the game would be gone. It would require skill, instead of intelligence.

Maybe that's a better explanation. I dunno.


My sig is stupid.
Clone L68362 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-22-2005, 12:24 AM   #64
Manny C
 
Manny C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Australia: the Tatooine of the real world
Posts: 179
yeah it is, but there are plenty of hybrid RPG's that incorporate skills into the gameplay excellently and its still an rpg. Take deus ex and jade empire for example.
Manny C is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-22-2005, 12:36 AM   #65
lukeiamyourdad
Using Teletraan I
 
lukeiamyourdad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Montréal, Québec, Canada
Posts: 8,274
LFN Staff Member 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
This is true, but its a matter of opinion as to whether its for the better or worse. HOWEVER, it does not change the script, the characters, the locations or anything such as this which make KOTOR games great. The combat system cant take away these exulting traits.
True, to an extent, but again, it's all part of the overall experience.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
yes. Dont pose a rhetorical question unless you offer something to back up your intended side of the argument, it's bad rhetoric.
I did, you just seemed to miss the rest of that part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
again, i never said they "switch off the console at the first sign of difficulty". If something is long winded, and a chore to play, then they are LESS LIKELY to endure it because their elasticity of enjoyment is much greater than the "hardcore" gamer.
I think this is a big generalization. I don't think hardcore gamers are going to endure anything tedious more then a casual gamer. The only people who actually do endure really atrocious games are game reviewers and that's because they have too.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
its interesting you should bring up the adventure games, and you have a good point, adventure gamers certainly arent "hardcore gamers", are usually more mature and don't necessarily play other types of games, however, i think its interesting to note the decline of adventure games, yes they are certainly still around but there's no denying that they've been on a downward slope over the past 10 years, and the crowd who play them nowadays tends to be a fairly specialist consumer group. "Monopolistic competition" if you will.
So has the RTS been on the downward slope. Will it pick up in the future? who knows. RPGs, including those with "bad" combat system haven't been in any downward slope.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
gee, now there's a pretty baseless, generalized comment, and right after
I thought the careful inclusion of the word "some" would avoid any generalization. I see I was wrong...




Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
definately 100% true, but here you're getting two seperate arguments mixed up. My opinions, and the opinions of a fair number of people i know who've played the kotor games (typically not genre specific people, these guys+girls play action games, adventure games, survival horror and a few RPGs) are that the combat is fairly tedious, and as a starwars fan, and a hell of a fan of lightsabers and jedi, I would like to see more control given to the player.
And I'm pretty sure that "a fair number of people" means people you do know. More anecdotal evidence then actually having a serious survey on the matter. This isn't up for debate anyway.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
uh... im not completely sure but im gonna assume you meant "but adds little to realism", which is wrong. Simply by being given more options, you immediately have more CONTROL over your characters, thus meaning you have a greater range of choices of what you would do in that situation. Being given the choice to either attack, use a force power, use a grenade is less realistic than being given the choice to attack, retreat, prepare to counterattack the next enemy attack, throw the enemy, use a force power or use a grenade.

I hope that clarifies things for you.


Clearly you have misunderstood me from the beginning, so I'll explain it again.
KOTOR's combat currently gives the player a certain degree of control over the characters, by which i mean to say, you can choose what you want them to do to a certain extent. In my opinion, and relative to other games i have played, this is to a fairly small degree. I cannot attack two enemies at once with my lightsaber, I cannot effectively leap out of battle, i cannot use cover during a firefight, I cannot throw a grenade to a destination other than exactly where an enemy is standing. Based on these sorts of things, my opinion is that the control is fairly SMALL.

But how does that make the more "action" hungry player feel that the game is less tedious? It's more options. I simply don't think that's how you can qualify that as more "control".



Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
While your take on control is fair enough, that is in my opinion more like complete control. Naturally, as redhawke has make pretty clear, as well as hall, that wouldnt really work in a D20 game like kotor. I still think the D20 rules arent THAT inflexible, you could easily alter things to make room for extra moves and options.
Of course there's more then enough room and I'm all for that. However, I don't see how you and me are not on the same side of the fence. Your proposition won't change anything, just add more options. I don't think we can qualify it as more control.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
matter of opinion. To people unfamiliar with the workings of RPG's, it would most definately make it more accessible.
Perhaps yes, perhaps not. Personally, I think it would make no difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
again thats a matter of opinion. The combat only changed when u learnt a new move, and there were only like 3 for melee and 3 for ranged. After that it was always the same. In my opinion, the same 3 moves throughout a 40 hour game is tedious.
It's actually 4 moves, including the regular attack and there has been a lot of improvements in the department of animations. Thus, it made it less tedious since it wasn't the same flurry animation all the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
I dont like that i have no influence, combat should be more than that, it should be fun and detailed, as it should be in a game about jedi.
See, this is the thing where I think you contradict yourself. You want more influence but no manual aiming or manual fighting, just more option, but more influence within the D20 system?
The influence you have, depends on what move you choose to use. That's what an RPG is about and according to your earlier explanation of what you wanted, nothing has changed and you'll have the same amount of influence, just more option.
Far from more control and influence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
btw, whats DDR?
Dance Dance Revolution.
lukeiamyourdad is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-22-2005, 01:49 AM   #66
Eagle Racer
Rookie
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
i havent played battlefront 2, looks awesome tho. Whats the jedi control like?
It's similar to JKA. Only thing is you only get 2 force powers per Jedi and they are not of your choosing. It's a lot of fun, but it's even more of a botton masher's paradise as a Jedi than it is as a normal soldier. Really cool atack animations and stuff, Yoda's espicially. Pretty neat getting to play as one of those Yeddy looking creaters on Hoth. Only complaint is that the entire AI for the enemy zooms in on you and only once they spot you on the feild of battle. Kind of annoying watching a group of them come running through a large group of ally soldiers to chase you around. Does add more challenge and can be funny when you and your allies mow them all down. Prolly should be back on toppic, if you want anymore info feel free to shoot me a PM or something...

Back on topic, I will say this, I do agree with the "purists" here about the fighting engine, but isn't this series suppose to be an RTS to some extent as well, not just an RPG? I would enjoy the chance to use my character like you can in Battlefront, but only in say a "Battle Arena" Situation, not during the normal game play. You put all that time into developing them, be nice to "really be in control" at some point... But that's a ton of extra coding to add and another can of worms and all that good stuff, so I understand not being able to do it.
Eagle Racer is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-22-2005, 02:07 AM   #67
RedHawke
Shadow Lord Of The Sith™
 
RedHawke's Avatar
 
Status: Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Stormreach CA.
Posts: 9,184
Current Game: DDO, Stormreach
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle Racer
but isn't this series suppose to be an RTS to some extent as well, not just an RPG?
Nope, KOTOR/TSL are 'pure' RPG's, nothing more... Real Time Strategy is more of a Warcraft III or Starcraft thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
yeah it is, but there are plenty of hybrid RPG's that incorporate skills into the gameplay excellently and its still an rpg. Take deus ex and jade empire for example.
I thought I already explained about the differences between 'Hybrid' RPG's and 'Pure' RPG's... they are not even the same type of game.


"Beware the form-fitting black armor-clad Drow hottie with twin Mineral II Greensteel Khopeshes!"
"Liella d'Orien says, '"You're the fool, Devil. -- Witness the power of this fully ARMED and OPERATIONAL Titan!"'"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
RedHawke is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-22-2005, 02:29 AM   #68
Manny C
 
Manny C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Australia: the Tatooine of the real world
Posts: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
True, to an extent, but again, it's all part of the overall experience.
how to any extent is it not true? combat and story/characters are seperate, combat, like what has clearly been stated is a minor part of the kotor games. Yes the overall experience would be effected, for good or bad hinges on the opinion of the player, but the fact remains that it really wouldnt effect the game significantly at all, i think it would make it better, you think it would make it worse.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
I think this is a big generalization. I don't think hardcore gamers are going to endure anything tedious more then a casual gamer. The only people who actually do endure really atrocious games are game reviewers and that's because they have too.
of course the harcore gamer will, like i said earlier, the casual gamer may have no knowledge whatsoever of D20 or any of the goings on behind the scenes of KOTOR combat, they simply hire kotor off the shelves and play it. When it gets to a battle they're gonna say "what the hell is this, why cant i hide behind this wall while i shoot, this is stupid".

everyone's all pent up on keeping it a "pure RPG" so that people who are completely uncoordinated dont suck at it. But look at Fable, that's got real time combat and that's still almost completely dependant on your skills. Being quick and twitchy is all well and good but if you're guy is only doing like 4 damage to a guy with 200 hp you're not going to get very far.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
I thought the careful inclusion of the word "some" would avoid any generalization. I see I was wrong...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
And I'm pretty sure that "a fair number of people" means people you do know. More anecdotal evidence then actually having a serious survey on the matter. This isn't up for debate anyway.
Yeah man but do you? other than a clearly biased forum you can't honestly make an accurate guess at the actual number of people who'd like it or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
But how does that make the more "action" hungry player feel that the game is less tedious? It's more options. I simply don't think that's how you can qualify that as more "control".
well the simple fact is that the more options you have, the better your control is over what the character does, i think that qualifies as more "control" quite easily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Of course there's more then enough room and I'm all for that. However, I don't see how you and me are not on the same side of the fence. Your proposition won't change anything, just add more options. I don't think we can qualify it as more control.
my argument is that combat is too detached from the player, whatever means that is reduced i don't mind, all ive argued is that it wouldn't be a bad thing. (good even)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
It's actually 4 moves, including the regular attack and there has been a lot of improvements in the department of animations. Thus, it made it less tedious since it wasn't the same flurry animation all the time.
yeah but thats kind of like chucking a drop of water at the fireplace to put it out,

4 moves instead of 3 for a 40 hour game
5 or 6 animations

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
See, this is the thing where I think you contradict yourself. You want more influence but no manual aiming or manual fighting, just more option, but more influence within the D20 system?
The influence you have, depends on what move you choose to use. That's what an RPG is about and according to your earlier explanation of what you wanted, nothing has changed and you'll have the same amount of influence, just more option.
Far from more control and influence.
what im saying isnt that specific, all i said was that there isnt enough control in the combat, there's plenty of ways to increase it. Like make it a real time 3rd person style like Fable or Jade Empire. or if you dont want to have to rely on your senses at all, then keep the D20 system but expand it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Dance Dance Revolution.
I'd hardly compare the sort of real time action like fable in talking about to dance dance revolution
Manny C is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-22-2005, 02:30 AM   #69
Emperor Devon
36 Wings, 365 Eyes
 
Emperor Devon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 5,479
Current Game: Ass Effect
Contest winner - Fan Fiction 
Change the KOTOR combat system? What a great idea! I just thought of another one - let's all set ourselves on fire so we'll stay nice and warm!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretooth
We will be great failures one day, you and I
Emperor Devon is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-22-2005, 02:37 AM   #70
Manny C
 
Manny C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Australia: the Tatooine of the real world
Posts: 179
lol how insightful

the battlefront jedi control sounds a bit crappy. JKA is the worst at controlling jedi i cant stand it.
Manny C is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-22-2005, 10:57 AM   #71
Eagle Racer
Rookie
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 56
It's hard for me to compare. I've got JKA on X-Box and Battlefront 2 on PC... I do have JKO, but I haven't played with the lightsaber a whole lot on that one. Jedi are also limited to put them on a more even playing frield with the rest of the characters in game.
Eagle Racer is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-22-2005, 04:23 PM   #72
IndianaSolo
Rookie
 
IndianaSolo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Tatooine
Posts: 193
I still chuckle everytime I read the two poll options and how the author was so leading in the way he phrased it.

I just can't make myself vote no because the description of the no vote isn't my reason for why I'd vote no.


Darth Maul - The Forgotten Sith
IndianaSolo is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-22-2005, 04:31 PM   #73
Rediy
Lurker
 
Rediy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 9
KOTOR is a roleplaying series, not a FPS or Action series. The idea isn't to have fast action, twitch based combat, but to have involving story archs, and characters. If KOTOR3 is twitch based, I simply will not buy it. The D20 system is based off of dice rolls, and stats. You would completely undermine that system by changing it to a more point and click setup.

Go play Neverwinter Nights, think it should have a fast action, clickfest style fighting where you aim your characters attacks? No, that isn't how these games are built.

Infact, I could see KOTOR playing out as a turned based game much better than any FPS styled game. Go play the Jedi Knight series, if you want a FPS experience.
Rediy is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-22-2005, 07:35 PM   #74
Manny C
 
Manny C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Australia: the Tatooine of the real world
Posts: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rediy
KOTOR is a roleplaying series, not a FPS or Action series. The idea isn't to have fast action, twitch based combat, but to have involving story archs, and characters.
since when does having real time combat prevent the game from keeping the focus on the story and characters? everyone seems to think if a game has real time combat, it immediately doesn't have a story. do i really need to list all the games that prove that wrong?
Manny C is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-22-2005, 08:20 PM   #75
Eagle Racer
Rookie
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 56
If they go to ture turn based combat I may not buy the game. I have one of the LOTR games and it's way too tedious to wait through all the battles. I just quite playing it, because of how slow it was. I think the system is fine the way it is, but wouldn't mind the battles being more flowing. The way they are currently, I think makes them much more enjoyable than other RPG's I've played.
Eagle Racer is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-22-2005, 09:00 PM   #76
Manny C
 
Manny C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Australia: the Tatooine of the real world
Posts: 179
dude it already is turn based, its just hidden like baldur's gate
Manny C is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-22-2005, 09:03 PM   #77
Hallucination
Baron von Sexy
 
Hallucination's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,875
Current Game: HKO closed beta
^Believe it or not, but KOTOR is turn based. Every three seconds you get one turn. After that its your enemies turn. Its very cleverly disguised don't you think?
@Manny C: Its like eating soup with a fork, you don't get enough of it and its very messy.
Edit: Damn, Manny C beat me to telling Eagle Racer...


Let's kill ourselves.

Last edited by Hallucination; 11-22-2005 at 09:38 PM.
Hallucination is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-22-2005, 10:41 PM   #78
Eagle Racer
Rookie
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 56
Duh, it's turn based. pretty obvious when in the middle of a battle every chracter stands there for 2 seconds not doing anything, then people swing some weapons for half a second then stands there for another 2.5 seconds and things start all over again........................

yeah, but it's not a true turn based (one chracter attacks at a time) system like some other games where you get a lot of time to decide what to do. it's quick and if you aren't, too bad... I would like to see them shorten the turns myself, and leave things up to being time to complete the attack or whatever instead, for how quickly things move. Introduce a "speed" factor in the game, like you see in other RPG's.

Last edited by Eagle Racer; 11-22-2005 at 11:36 PM.
Eagle Racer is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-22-2005, 11:21 PM   #79
lukeiamyourdad
Using Teletraan I
 
lukeiamyourdad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Montréal, Québec, Canada
Posts: 8,274
LFN Staff Member 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
of course the harcore gamer will, like i said earlier, the casual gamer may have no knowledge whatsoever of D20 or any of the goings on behind the scenes of KOTOR combat, they simply hire kotor off the shelves and play it. When it gets to a battle they're gonna say "what the hell is this, why cant i hide behind this wall while i shoot, this is stupid".
Or he might not be bothered at all. I came in KotOR without any knowledge of the D20 system and haven't even touched either Baldur's Gate or NWN.
It didn't bother me, as I don't think people are as bothered with it as you make it sound.
I think "casual gamers" know more about RPGs then you make them sound like.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
everyone's all pent up on keeping it a "pure RPG" so that people who are completely uncoordinated dont suck at it. But look at Fable, that's got real time combat and that's still almost completely dependant on your skills. Being quick and twitchy is all well and good but if you're guy is only doing like 4 damage to a guy with 200 hp you're not going to get very far.
More or less. I'll take Diablo 2 for example. The game relies on skills, true, but anyone who has ever been in a duel knows that the guy who clicks first wins or the one who can click faster.
It removes emphasis on skills.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
Yeah man but do you? other than a clearly biased forum you can't honestly make an accurate guess at the actual number of people who'd like it or not.
You obviously think I don't have a life outside of my room.
I know a lot of casual gamers who have played KotOR, some like it, some less. Overall, nobody was bothered that much by the combat system. You're right though, it can't be an accurate picture.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
well the simple fact is that the more options you have, the better your control is over what the character does, i think that qualifies as more "control" quite easily.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
my argument is that combat is too detached from the player, whatever means that is reduced i don't mind, all ive argued is that it wouldn't be a bad thing. (good even)
I don't think it's too detached. It's different. You might have less abilities to do what you want but that can be changed with more options or abilities to play with the environment, without changing the current D20 system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
yeah but thats kind of like chucking a drop of water at the fireplace to put it out,

4 moves instead of 3 for a 40 hour game
5 or 6 animations
At least 3 animations for every attack, 4 for the regular.
3x3+4=13

You do notice the repetition of animations, but that happens with every game in history. Animations tend to repeat themselves.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
what im saying isnt that specific, all i said was that there isnt enough control in the combat, there's plenty of ways to increase it. Like make it a real time 3rd person style like Fable or Jade Empire. or if you dont want to have to rely on your senses at all, then keep the D20 system but expand it.
Read definition of control. We can and we should keep the D20 system, but nobody is resistant to improving the current system. What people truly fear is the total change of the system, moving away from turn-based.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
since when does having real time combat prevent the game from keeping the focus on the story and characters? everyone seems to think if a game has real time combat, it immediately doesn't have a story. do i really need to list all the games that prove that wrong?
You're right, since KotOR does have a real-time combat system. Though turn-based, everything happens in real time.
lukeiamyourdad is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-23-2005, 12:24 AM   #80
Hallucination
Baron von Sexy
 
Hallucination's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,875
Current Game: HKO closed beta
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad


At least 3 animations for every attack, 4 for the regular.
3x3+4=13
Correction: 3x3+4=13x3=39. You forgot that there are 3 different lightsaber types (dueling, dual-wielding and double-bladed).


Let's kill ourselves.
Hallucination is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Go Back   LucasForums > Network > Knights of the Old Republic > Game Discussion > The Unknown Regions > D20 system intergrated in realisted combat mode for KOTOR III !

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:13 PM.

LFNetwork, LLC ©2002-2011 - All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.