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View Poll Results: Who think these ideas will be more realisted than the current non free will system?
yes:I want ultimate real Jedi Knight experiance with free will. 21 33.33%
no:I want the computer to do all the work, I don't want freedom in combat. 42 66.67%
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Thread: D20 system intergrated in realisted combat mode for KOTOR III !
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Old 11-22-2005, 11:29 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hallucination
Correction: 3x3+4=13x3=39. You forgot that there are 3 different lightsaber types (dueling, dual-wielding and double-bladed).

Oh right, thanks for the heads up
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Old 11-22-2005, 11:33 PM   #82
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^^No problem. The D20 system needs all the support from us "hardcore" gamers .


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Old 11-23-2005, 02:26 PM   #83
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You got that right. Leave the original combat mode in the third KOTOR. I liked how it appeared in the first two and even though it is turn based, it looks real and neat at certain angles.

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Old 11-23-2005, 07:14 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Or he might not be bothered at all. I came in KotOR without any knowledge of the D20 system and haven't even touched either Baldur's Gate or NWN.
It didn't bother me, as I don't think people are as bothered with it as you make it sound.
I think "casual gamers" know more about RPGs then you make them sound like.
I was the same, it only bothered me for a bit but then i got used to it, its really a minor inconvenience, but my argument is that it shouldnt be an inconvenience at all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
you know that really doesnt prove me wrong at all, in fact it really does the opposite: "To exercise authoritative or dominating influence over; direct."

more options means increased ability to direct your characters' actions, ie, more control

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
I don't think it's too detached. It's different. You might have less abilities to do what you want but that can be changed with more options or abilities to play with the environment, without changing the current D20 system.
The bold is wherin lies my "quam" with the combat system. I suggested changes like that earlier but redhawke said it doesnt follow the "d20 rules" or something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
You do notice the repetition of animations, but that happens with every game in history.
bold statement, one i would have chosen to avoid. Half-life 2 has a simulated physics engine, ie there are no "animations" so thus no repetitiveness.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Read definition of control. We can and we should keep the D20 system, but nobody is resistant to improving the current system. What people truly fear is the total change of the system, moving away from turn-based.
In the end its a matter of preference. There's no way they're gonna change the combat system that much because its too big a step away from the other two, but as someone who gets tired of clicky clickies, id prefer something real time, more exciting and variable in my opinion.


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Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
You're right, since KotOR does have a real-time combat system. Though turn-based, everything happens in real time.
ie "hidden turn-based"
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Old 11-24-2005, 01:49 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
I was the same, it only bothered me for a bit but then i got used to it, its really a minor inconvenience, but my argument is that it shouldnt be an inconvenience at all.
It's not. It's like getting into any game ever. You have different interfaces, different weapons, etc.
Getting used to the new setting is always present or else, you'd have every game with the same HUD, same weapons, same everything.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
you know that really doesnt prove me wrong at all, in fact it really does the opposite: "To exercise authoritative or dominating influence over; direct."

more options means increased ability to direct your characters' actions, ie, more control
Yeah, I thought about it for a long while before adding it in. Still, I don't think I can qualify that as "control".
Anyway, it's a debate on terminology, so let's leave it at that.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
The bold is wherin lies my "quam" with the combat system. I suggested changes like that earlier but redhawke said it doesnt follow the "d20 rules" or something.
Meh, things can change with or without RedHawke's purism

It's my opinion that we should be able to play with the environment and setting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
bold statement, one i would have chosen to avoid. Half-life 2 has a simulated physics engine, ie there are no "animations" so thus no repetitiveness.
You're partly right, but the movement of various characters are animations. There is no death animation but that doesn't mean there's no animations at all. We can go as far as to qualify the SMG firing the same way all the time as repetitive animations or seeing your hand throw a grenade. Same grenade throwing animation, all the time.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
In the end its a matter of preference. There's no way they're gonna change the combat system that much because its too big a step away from the other two, but as someone who gets tired of clicky clickies, id prefer something real time, more exciting and variable in my opinion.
Well, you might have to click again. Unless they use a system where you play almost exclusively with your keyboard and/or controller, you'll click to attack, right-click to defend, etc. You get the idea, and for RPGs, it usually is the regular setting.
Really though, I play a lot of FPS and RTS and that mostly involves clicking.

I do think that if some people think the combat is unexciting it might be linked to the difficulty of the game. On normal setting, the game is too easy the second you get a lightsaber and force powers. It becomes some sort of weird "hack-n-slash" in turn base.
You mow down mobs of enemies in one or two hits so the combat system has no time to really flourish.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
ie "hidden turn-based"
Doesn't make it less real-time.
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Old 11-24-2005, 04:37 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
I suggested changes like that earlier but redhawke said it doesnt follow the "d20 rules" or something.
Meh, things can change with or without RedHawke's purism
Not unless WotC changes the D20 rules!

Rules Lawyers FTW!


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Old 11-29-2005, 04:36 PM   #87
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Leave the RPG ALONE!!! I like it as I've stated in several posts. Combination games are for those who like JA or Episode 3

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Old 11-29-2005, 08:42 PM   #88
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While I don't feel the need to jump into this debate with both feet I feel I should point out that in real life "combat" is "turn based."

Here's what happens if two guys in real life having a sword fight attack at the same time: They both die, one might die quicker but they both still get layed out.

Hell, its even something I do when foil fencing, if I have a particually tougth opponent I force my attack, i.e. when he goes to parry I drop my blade and carry on lunging. I hit him first but in real life we'd both be pushing up daisies.

If someone swings at you you block, if they shoot at you you duck. If they attack you defend, if they defend you attack. People who just go hack hack in JO or JA last about 30 seconds in MP against someone who knows what they're doing.


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Old 12-11-2005, 02:58 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha; Can't even beat the Turret Mini-Game; Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha.
Hey, no kidding, this happened to me one time early on when I'd only played the game a few times. I was playing with my son and when we left Taris, we could not beat the fighters to save our lives. We must have reloaded like 10 times. Now, I'd beaten it before, so I couldn't understand the problem--thought it might be my computer (I'm playing on a laptop with the bare minimum graphics card).
Then I realized that every time I shot up 2 fighters, 2 more would spawn in some really weird glitch. I finally had to uninstall/reinstall the game in order to get it to work properly again. Of course, that also gave me the incentive to try mods (I didn't want to mod the game before playing it a few times, and believe it or not, K1 was my first real PC game).

Now, I'd like to keep the D20 system the way it is. I feel like I'm managing enough just picking out the various attacks and Force powers--I don't want to have to manage every single move, too. Except for the boss fights, I like the battles to be over fairly quickly.
Now I have to go play the game instead of talking about playing the game....


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Old 12-11-2005, 04:14 PM   #90
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Mandalore wants the combat to stay the same. Only enhanced


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Old 12-11-2005, 11:54 PM   #91
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The combat system is great, but more movement of the fighters would be great, like in the movies!!!
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Old 12-12-2005, 12:38 PM   #92
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I don't think that's feasible. Wouldn't that end up altering the system anyway?

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Old 12-17-2005, 03:44 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
I was the same, it only bothered me for a bit but then i got used to it, its really a minor inconvenience, but my argument is that it shouldnt be an inconvenience at all.
I think a little story would best describe this situation. There was once a happy little Jedi Knight, but he thought all that peace and serenity stuff was an inconvenience... so he ran off and joined the Sith, and was no longer bothered with that incnovenience.

My point: Pick a game that's not as "inconvenient" for you. If you do not like RPG combat, then I regret to inform you...

KOTOR IS AN RPG.

If you like FPS combat, then go play a FPS game. It's that simple. You're basically trying to turn a game into something that already exists, but you don't seem to know it. I believe the proper quote for this situation is "reinventing the wheel".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
you know that really doesnt prove me wrong at all, in fact it really does the opposite: "To exercise authoritative or dominating influence over; direct."
You still don't have the full definition. It can be in a physical or mental sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
more options means increased ability to direct your characters' actions, ie, more control
Are you saying you prefer swining lightsabers in all sorts of angles to developing your character's personality?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
The bold is wherin lies my "quam" with the combat system. I suggested changes like that earlier but redhawke said it doesnt follow the "d20 rules" or something.
He was correct... If you change the D20 rules, they no longer are the D20 rules.

Change: To lay aside, abandon, or leave for another; switch: change methods; change sides.
To transfer from (one conveyance) to another: change planes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
bold statement, one i would have chosen to avoid. Half-life 2 has a simulated physics engine, ie there are no "animations" so thus no repetitiveness.
I'm not sure you understand... in video games, when a character moves, it is an animation. If a characters moves forward, that is considered an animation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
id prefer something real time, more exciting and variable in my opinion.
Then go play a game that's more "real time". IT'S THAT SIMPLEl.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
ie "hidden turn-based"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
more options means increased ability to direct your characters' actions, ie, more control
Can anyone detect a bit of inconsistency here?


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Old 12-17-2005, 06:37 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
I think a little story would best describe this situation. There was once a happy little Jedi Knight, but he thought all that peace and serenity stuff was an inconvenience... so he ran off and joined the Sith, and was no longer bothered with that incnovenience.
thats the worst metaphor ive ever heard. In essence, id depicts nothing more than your opinion: "RPG COMBAT=GOOD, REAL TIME COMBAT=EVIL"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
My point: Pick a game that's not as "inconvenient" for you.
really, your story has nothing to do with that point, but just to humour you: firstly, read through my posts before you make wild generalizations like "the game is inconvenient". The game is not inconvenient. I found adjusting to the combat mechanism inconvenient, and i find having to watch the same animations continuously inconvenient. Jesus, ud think the combat system was the only part of the game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
KOTOR IS AN RPG.
so is deus ex. so is jade empire.
regardless, ur argument is redundant, the classification of the game has already been made. You cant say "i like rpgs, i like FPS, lets change this game into an FPS", because its really not that simple. I like games with an excellent sense of immersion, a great story, great characters and is fun to play. I just so happen to find more enjoyment in real time combat style action than RPG action, simple as that. But that doesnt mean ill not play kotor because i find the combat system tiresome, fact remains that its an awesome game because of its other qualities, i dont "do or die" on a game based on one of its faculties.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
If you like FPS combat, then go play a FPS game. It's that simple. You're basically trying to turn a game into something that already exists, but you don't seem to know it. I believe the proper quote for this situation is "reinventing the wheel".
Again, its stupid to abandon/hail a game based on one of its attributes. and what is this idiotic assumption that "real time=FPS". It's a jedi game, how can you use a shooter style game for a weapon that doesnt "shoot", thats why ive always thought the jedi knight series is stupid. I feel like a game about jedi knights would benefit from the ability to directly control the lightsaber, others like the way it is. Take it or leave it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
You still don't have the full definition. It can be in a physical or mental sense.
i have the definition thats relevant to this discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Are you saying you prefer swining lightsabers in all sorts of angles to developing your character's personality?
no. dont see what more options has to do with swinging wildly and dont see what it has to do with personality. To be honest this is really starting to bug me. How does changing the combat system affect the rest of the game in any way? i honestly dont understand this preconceived notion that if a game has real time combat that it cant have character progression or a story. Hasnt anyone played fable or deus ex? Also, havent i made it clear that i HATE the idea of swinging a lightsaber at all angles, that is not what real time saber combat should be like. JEDI ACADEMY HAS POORLY DESIGNED GAMEPLAY!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
He was correct... If you change the D20 rules, they no longer are the D20 rules.
to be honest i dont really understand the d20 rules they have in starwars RPG. I play vampire the masquerade, and thats really adaptable to anything a character does. An action will always require the use of a skill and an attribute, and you just add them up and thats how many dice you use and your successes determine wether u succeeded or failed. This system is adaptable to pretty much any action. I dont really get the D20 thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
I'm not sure you understand... in video games, when a character moves, it is an animation. If a characters moves forward, that is considered an animation.
lol no its not. by "animation" we mean a prescripted action that has been written by an animator. like in say, goldeneye, when an enemy dies, he sometimes falls to his knees then on his face. That is a death animation that has been prescripted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Then go play a game that's more "real time". IT'S THAT SIMPLEl.
dont take it out of context mate, i was talking about the COMBAT SYSTEM. not the game as a whole.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Can anyone detect a bit of inconsistency here?
nope, neither of these contradict themselves, and they're both taken out of context. What are you, micheal moore's protege?

can we get redhawke and luke back in here? they've got much more guided and sensical discussion to add.
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Old 12-17-2005, 02:34 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
thats the worst metaphor ive ever heard. In essence, id depicts nothing more than your opinion: "RPG COMBAT=GOOD, REAL TIME COMBAT=EVIL"
You are incorrect again. The point is that you seem to want to turn KOTOR into an action-based game, even though action-based games already exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
firstly, read through my posts before you make wild generalizations like "the game is inconvenient".
I'm sorry. I thought you meant it when you said it was inconvenient.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
so is deus ex. so is jade empire.
True. However, most RPGs do not use that kind of combat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
I like games with an excellent sense of immersion, a great story, great characters and is fun to play. I just so happen to find more enjoyment in real time combat style action than RPG action, simple as that.
http://jade.bioware.com/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
no. dont see what more options has to do with swinging wildly and dont see what it has to do with personality.
Lucasarts wanted KOTOR II to have more features than the first game, but still have a good plot. Unfortunately, the time they spent adding the new features could've been spent on improving the story, and making it so that fans would not have to restore the cut content. It seems that Lucasarts doesn't care much about finishing both aspects of the game. If they spend even more time focusing on the combat, there'll probably be less time for them to work on the story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
To be honest this is really starting to bug me. How does changing the combat system affect the rest of the game in any way?
Because for both KOTOR games, they've used the same combat system. If KOTOR III doesn't, it won't feel like KOTOR as much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
i honestly dont understand this preconceived notion that if a game has real time combat that it cant have character progression or a story.
Scoll upward a bit, and you'll see the reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
Hasnt anyone played fable or deus ex?
No. I heard Fable was an awful game, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
to be honest i dont really understand the d20 rules they have in starwars RPG.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
I dont really get the D20 thing.


Yet another reason why KOTOR doesn't seem to be the game for you...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
lol no its not. by "animation" we mean a prescripted action that has been written by an animator. like in say, goldeneye, when an enemy dies, he sometimes falls to his knees then on his face. That is a death animation that has been prescripted.
And when characters move forward, their legs go back and forth. That is an animation. The animators had to write it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
What are you, micheal moore's protege?
No, I am not.


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Old 12-17-2005, 04:38 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
I fully agree with this statement.
There is an evolution of the genre, but evolution does not mean changing everything.
Of all the actual RPGs, KotOR has one of the best combat system.

Look at some Japanese RPGs, mainly the Final Fantasy serie. Stand at point x, move towards enemy, attack, return to point x.
It's even more horrendous then KotOR, yet there's less whining about it. Why? Great story and characters, just like KotOR.

It's like some heretics who dare say that Civ should be made into an RTS. The series of Civilization games are management games so combat isn't the main focus, just like real RPGs.

Or even better, Rainbow Six doesn't have enough fast-paced action. It's not supposed to have fast-paced action.
I hate with a passion what Ubisoft has done to consolizing the R6/GR series. Taking a slow paced real tactical shooter and turning it into a fast action FPS with squad support. Revan Shield will be the last game in that series that I will buy.

So far as Dues Ex is concerned most gamers consider it to be a FPS-RPG hybrid.

Fable, from what I understand is a decent game if you forget all that was promised and cut from the game.

I have no problems with how the combat is done in KotOR series. I wouldn't mind seeing something like what Bethesda is doing with TES IV:Oblivion. However I have no idea how it would be implemented in a KotOR game.

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Old 12-17-2005, 07:33 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
You are incorrect again. The point is that you seem to want to turn KOTOR into an action-based game, even though action-based games already exist.
hold on, i think you need to reread my posts. For some twisted reason you seem to think the entire game hinges solely on the combat system, I don't know if you've played the games (you wouldnt think this if you had) but a very large portion of the game is in conversation, developing character, getting to know people learning the story. Now, if the combat system were to change, then none of these other facets would be affected in ANY way. In fact, if i had the programming skill id try and make a mod which implements real time combat into kotor 1, and in doing so i wouldnt touch any of the game in which there is no combat.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
I'm sorry. I thought you meant it when you said it was inconvenient.
Apology accepted, but i really think you should actually go back and read through the posts before shooting your mouth off. If you had, you would have realised this entire discussion is about the COMBAT SYSTEM. You don't need to change the script, characters locations or anything like that to change the combat system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
True. However, most RPGs do not use that kind of combat.
your point? Since when should "most dont do it" be a legitimate reason for something not to be done. If everyone had that attitude, the gaming industry would be a dull world indeed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
is this supposed to prove something? Ive played through jade empire, its good but its not as good as KOTOR. Firstly, KOTOR is a starwars game, and i love starwars, secondly, kotor has better characters and story, plus it's more immersive, its bigger and the locations are better. To me, all of those facets are more important than the combat system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Lucasarts wanted KOTOR II to have more features than the first game, but still have a good plot. Unfortunately, the time they spent adding the new features could've been spent on improving the story, and making it so that fans would not have to restore the cut content. It seems that Lucasarts doesn't care much about finishing both aspects of the game. If they spend even more time focusing on the combat, there'll probably be less time for them to work on the story.
hmmmm. Ok i think some things need to be made clear to you. Firstly "Lucasarts" didnt make the game, they funded a company called "Obsidian Entertainment" to develop the game, who created what we now know as "Kotor 2". The reason there's so much content cut out is not because "they spent too much time on features" but that Lucasarts (the publisher) pushed for an early release date so the game would be out well before the new movie in order to make more sales. This meant Obsidian didnt have enough time to finish the game completely and had to cut alot of stuff out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Because for both KOTOR games, they've used the same combat system. If KOTOR III doesn't, it won't feel like KOTOR as much.
Yes, it would be different, thats already been debated, but its a matter of opinion as to whether it would be for the better.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Scoll upward a bit, and you'll see the reason.
By this i suppose you mean "more time on combat means less time working on story". But the thing is that the people who code the combat system and animate the game aren't the same people who write the story. The people who write the story are "writers" hired by obsidian to write the main story and the script, not the programmers and animators. Plus, if lucasarts learn from their mistake from KOTOR 2 (which they wont, as it didnt affect sales too much, and thats the only way things ever change on the publisher's end), they'll give the development team as much time as they need to get the game completely finished.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
No. I heard Fable was an awful game, though.
It's like aratoelar said, it was a good game if you forget about all the hype. I happened to play the game without hearing all the hype so for me i thought it was great. It probably has the most in depth character customization of any RPG, thats for sure. how interesting, that sort of contradicts something i read earlier:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Are you saying you prefer swining lightsabers in all sorts of angles to developing your character's personality?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon

Yet another reason why KOTOR doesn't seem to be the game for you...
God almighty! Unlike a judgmental grandmother, i don't immediate deem a game as "for me" or "not for me" because i dont like something about it. Not only that, but since when do you have to completely understand the mathematical probability mechanism behind the combat in kotor in order for the game to be suitable to play? Ill wager most of the people who bought and played kotor havent even heard the phrase "D20". Could you have said anything more stupid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
And when characters move forward, their legs go back and forth. That is an animation. The animators had to write it.
thats about as relevant as your comment about the "control" definition. tiny movements like that are NOT what me and luke were talking about. Don't butt into a discussion then have no idea what the discussion is about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Originally Posted by Manny C
What are you, micheal moore's protege?

No, I am not.
Ever heard the phrase "rhetorical question"? At any rate, the point of saying it is that pretty much everything uve said has either been irrelevant, already said and in a better way, or is a response to something ive said taken out of context because you havent read through the discussion. Please read through it before you start posting, you'll save us alot of time.
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Old 12-17-2005, 08:17 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
hold on, i think you need to reread my posts. For some twisted reason you seem to think the entire game hinges solely on the combat system,
I do not think that. I thought that you did, but you seem to have cleared the matter up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
Apology accepted,
It was actually sarcasm. I thought you could tell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
your point?
You claimed that not all RPGs use a traditional RPG combat system, and then pointed them out. I then told you that most RPGs do not use an action-based combat system. [/QUOTE]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
Since when should "most dont do it" be a legitimate reason for something not to be done.
Quite the contrary. KOTOR I and II use the same graphics engine. "Most don't do it" would actually be one of many good reasons for KOTOR III not to use a new one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
Ive played through jade empire, its good but its not as good as KOTOR.
Strange. Jade Empire met more of your requirements for a good game than KOTOR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
kotor has better characters and story,
Personally, I found quite a few Jade Empire characters superiror to the ones in KOTOR. For example, Death's Hand was much better than Darth Bandon. However, I found KOTOR to be a better game than Jade Empire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
Firstly "Lucasarts" didnt make the game,
Actually, some members of Lucasarts worked on KOTOR II. It is true that Obsidian did the majority of the work. Given how you know this, I thought it would be unnecessary to identify Obsidian and simply say "they". Perhaps I need to be more clear when speaking to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
The reason there's so much content cut out is not because "they spent too much time on features" but that Lucasarts (the publisher) pushed for an early release date so the game would be out well before the new movie in order to make more sales.
The early release date was a reason, but they actually spent quite a bit of time working on the new features for KOTOR II.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
But the thing is that the people who code the combat system and animate the game aren't the same people who write the story. The people who write the story are "writers" hired by obsidian to write the main story and the script, not the programmers and animators.
That is true, but then the factor of money comes in. I imagine that Obsidian did not work for a low price. While Lucasarts may be rich, based on their behavior, they seem like the people who want to keep cost to a minimum. If the new features for KOTOR II were deemed unnecessary, that money could have gone into hiring more writers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
God almighty! Unlike a judgmental grandmother, i don't immediate deem a game as "for me" or "not for me" because i dont like something about it.
That's odd. Most people tend to buy games they like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
Not only that, but since when do you have to completely understand the mathematical probability mechanism behind the combat in kotor in order for the game to be suitable to play?
You said that you did not understand the D20 system. I assumed by that you meant the combat system itself, since that is what you said. Now you're going on about the mathematics of it. Where did that come from?

You inconsistency is destroying your arguments. You might want to work on that a bit before you post a reply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
thats about as relevant as your comment about the "control" definition. tiny movements like that are NOT what me and luke were talking about.
Technically, they are animations.


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Old 12-17-2005, 09:03 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
I do not think that. I thought that you did, but you seem to have cleared the matter up.
sigh:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
The point is that you seem to want to turn KOTOR into an action-based game, even though action-based games already exist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Are you saying you prefer swining lightsabers in all sorts of angles to developing your character's personality?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
You're basically trying to turn a game into something that already exists, but you don't seem to know it. I believe the proper quote for this situation is "reinventing the wheel".
in all of these quotes, you have conveyed the opinion that changing the combat system will mean the game will no longer be an RPG, but will be an "action game". Do you even know what an RPG actually is? theres more to it than turn based action and numbers and dice rolling im afraid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
It was actually sarcasm. I thought you could tell.
did you even read the rest of that sentence? Do you have selective eyesight or something? you only read what you want to and ignore what refutes your argument. In case you missed it, here ill make it easier for you:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
but i really think you should actually go back and read through the posts before shooting your mouth off. If you had, you would have realised this entire discussion is about the COMBAT SYSTEM. You don't need to change the script, characters locations or anything like that to change the combat system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
You claimed that not all RPGs use a traditional RPG combat system, and then pointed them out. I then told you that most RPGs do not use an action-based combat system.
i noticed that, thankyou. but do you actually have a point or was it just for the sake of it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Quite the contrary. KOTOR I and II use the same graphics engine. "Most don't do it" would actually be one of many good reasons for KOTOR III not to use a new one.
hold on a minute. So u said most RPG's dont use a real time combat system, which can only mean you're saying they shouldnt change the combat system because its not common, now you're saying the reason they should keep a two year old graphics engine is because its UNcommon? not only is that self contradicting, but it also goes on about the graphics engine which has nothing to do with this discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Strange. Jade Empire met more of your requirements for a good game than KOTOR.
what do you know about my "requirements for a good game". Ive made it so blatantly clear that i value story, characters and immersion over combat, and where it counts, kotor beats Jade Empire in my opinion. Don't pressume to dictate my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Personally, I found quite a few Jade Empire characters superiror to the ones in KOTOR. For example, Death's Hand was much better than Darth Bandon. However, I found KOTOR to be a better game than Jade Empire.
well thats entirely a matter of opinion, but your comparison doesnt make much sense. Darth Bandon is a very minor character in KOTOR, he's not "KOTOR's version of death's hand". when i say the characters, im talking about major characters like the party members and the main villains, of which darth bandon is not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Actually, some members of Lucasarts worked on KOTOR II. It is true that Obsidian did the majority of the work. Given how you know this, I thought it would be unnecessary to identify Obsidian and simply say "they". Perhaps I need to be more clear when speaking to you.
sigh, uve missed the point again. you wrote a paragraph on why kotor 2's story suffered because the game developers spent too much time on "new features" which is wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
The early release date was a reason, but they actually spent quite a bit of time working on the new features for KOTOR II.
are you saying they shouldn't introduce new features? keep the game completely the same and just have a new story? Why the hell am i even bothering to argue with an opinion like that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
That is true, but then the factor of money comes in. I imagine that Obsidian did not work for a low price. While Lucasarts may be rich, based on their behavior, they seem like the people who want to keep cost to a minimum. If the new features for KOTOR II were deemed unnecessary, that money could have gone into hiring more writers.
the kotor series has always been about story, and the focus will always stay that way. Lucasarts know this and they aren't going to boycott the selling feature of the series for the sake of "new features".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
That's odd. Most people tend to buy games they like.
that really has to be a joke. You can't possibly be that stupid. Is english your first language? because you clearly dont seem to be interpreting simple sentences properly. Since when does "there's a part of the game i dont like" mean "i dont like the game".

im getting the impression that the combat system is the REASON you play kotor and that its the single most important factor. Can we get someone else in here to offer a third party opinion?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
You said that you did not understand the D20 system. I assumed by that you meant the combat system itself, since that is what you said. Now you're going on about the mathematics of it. Where did that come from?
lol you just made it perfectly clear that you don't even know what the D20 system is yourself. Even so, you would have found out HAD YOU READ THE REST OF THIS DISCUSSION. Go back and read RedHawke's definition of the D20 system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
You inconsistency is destroying your arguments. You might want to work on that a bit before you post a reply.
this might be a sad fact to face, but in the little time you've been in this discussion you've misunderstood simple sentences, completely ignored points which refute your argument, brought up completely irrelevant things, contradicted yourself and brought up arguments which have already been dealt with and with better eloquence than you seem capable of. I beg of you, read the rest of the posts in this discussion BEFORE you post again, it will firstly answer plenty of your questions and clarify things for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Technically, they are animations.
i cant be bothered repeating myself so ill just cut and paste it:
"thats about as relevant as your comment about the "control" definition. tiny movements like that are NOT what me and luke were talking about."

if luke had a problem with my definition of animations, he would have said so, stop wasting my time.

Last edited by Manny C; 12-17-2005 at 09:16 PM.
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Old 12-17-2005, 09:10 PM   #100
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Emperor Devon & Manny C: you're welcomed to give your opinion about the game but play nice. Flaming won't be tolerated.
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Old 12-17-2005, 09:10 PM   #101
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Now now, everyone needs to take a deep breath, calm down and act rationally or else I'll ask someone to end this flamefest.

EDIT: D333 Just seconds before...


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Old 12-17-2005, 09:15 PM   #102
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lol sorry guys, it just frustrates me when someone replies into a discussion without reading whats already been replied. To be honest i reckon this discussion has been pretty well exhausted, it might be a good idea to lock it.
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Old 12-17-2005, 09:30 PM   #103
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^No. I have a few things to say myself:

Sorry, people. But MannyC has a point in a way. Even though I know that we will never get the kind of Deus Ex or Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines (don't lie, Vampire is in a very large part, in fact, and RPG) still there are some things that you missed about the D20 system.

I watched how this thread progressed and regretted every second that I can't participate here. I remember that it began with the 'Combat' thread where I proclaimed out of dis-knowledge that KOTOR should be an 'FPS' (by the way, when you use a sword in a game that is not FPS). After several posts I was defeated by RedHawke and lukeiamyourdad; and to my shame, I had to admit defeat. But I did it in the worst possible way: I started supporting the D20 system. I was ashamed at how I turned out to be such a fool that doesn't know anything. And I saw this thread and posted here a not honest answer. I wanted to support MannyC earlier, but I was afraid of being defeated again by those two, so I withdrew. But as time progressed I decieded "That's it! I'm going to fight." And I wanted to start here... BUT I first did some research on the D20 system and found some pretty interesting things. I did this to arm myself and come out and say it.
Two to be precise:

I read the rules about Combat Basics and found something called Attacks of opprotunity, Threatening Areas. Here is how it goes:
Quote:
Threatened Area
A character threatens the area into which it can make a melee attack, even when it is not a character's action. An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened area may provoke an attack of opportunity from a character. A small or medium sized character normally has a 5-foot threat radius. "Reach weapons" and "natural reach" can change the threatened area.
Provoking an Attack of Opportunity by Moving
If a character moves through (not simply into) or out of a threatened area, a character usually provokes an attack of opportunity.
If all a character does during that character's turn is make a normal move or a double move (not a run), the space that the character started out in is not considered threatened.
If a character's entire move for the round is 5 feet the 5 foot move does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
Provoking an Attack of Opportunity by Taking an Action
A character taking some kinds actions provokes attacks of opportunity, as described in the rules for each action type.
Making an Attack of Opportunity
An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and a character can only make one per round. The character does not have to make an attack of opportunity if the character doesn't want to. The character makes the attack of opportunity at the character's normal base attack bonus.
As far as I remember; I don't recall seeing anything like 'Aim at this part of the body to initate a move of high chance of achieving'. As far as I remember, there was nothing that told you how to move anywhere.

Quote:
Full attack [Full][AoO: No]
Description: If a character gets more than one attack per action, the character must use the full attack action to use those additional attacks. A character does not need to specify the targets of a the attacks ahead of time. A character can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.
The character may take a 5 ft. step before, after, or between the attacks.
If a character gets multiple attacks based on a character's base attack bonus, the character must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest.
Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack Action: After a character's first attack, if the character has not yet taken a 5-foot step, a character can decide to move instead of making a character's remaining attacks.
The character uses each attack to attack an opponent in a space that character threatens. The attack roll is:
d20 + Attack modifiers vs. AC of target
Attack modifiers consist of the character's base attack bonus, size adjustment, strength adjustment, and any other bonuses that apply to the attack roll.
A natural 1 on the d20 is always a miss, and a natural 20 on the d20 is always a hit.
If the modified attack roll is equal to or greater than the AC of the target, the attack is successful. The attack may also be a Threat. See Critical Hits and Dealing Damage, below, for more details.
If the character is attacking an armed opponent while unarmed, the character provokes an immediate attack of opportunity from the target which is resolved before the character's attack. Note that under certain circumstances, a character attacking without a weapon is still considered "armed".
A character can choose to fight defensively when taking the full attack action. If a character does so, the character takes a -4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round.
As far as I have read, it says that it is up to the player to decide what kind of a Attack to perform and which threatened area to attack.

So I ask you: What is the difference between the D20 system and the one in Vampire: Bloodlines? If you use the same attack type in KOTOR just like in Vampire, there won't be much of a difference. But how can the defense be configured you say? Let the computer do it, that's the only thing that can be done.
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Old 12-17-2005, 09:44 PM   #104
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as far as i know, the only difference is that vampire uses 10 sided dice instead of 20 sided dice.
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Old 12-17-2005, 09:52 PM   #105
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My point exatcly. The only difference I see will happen is a visual one. RPG combat systems aren't defined by the way of issuing attack orders; but by the way of performing them. In Vampire: Bloodlines what do you do? You walk up to them and press a button: The character attacks and the opponent recieves a limited ammount of damage. In KOTOR what do you do? You click on an opponent and the computer does the job for you.

But yet both are considered RPGs... The only difference between the Vamipre and KOTOR combat system is that in Vampire you have more freedom; But it isn't a reflex game.
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Old 12-17-2005, 09:54 PM   #106
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That's where issuing commands is. In KotOR, you don't simply just sit back and do nothing. You have to check out your buff, pay attention to what your NPCs are doing, choose different types of attacks, etc.

It's more interactive then you might "think".


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Old 12-17-2005, 10:00 PM   #107
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yea but it plays more like a strategy game. My argument is that in a game about jedi, control should be more direct and less strategy driven. But they'd have to work out a decent way to control the lightsaber first, as it is there arent really any games that simulate it that well.
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Old 12-17-2005, 10:01 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
It's more interactive then you might "think".
I admit that Vamipre: Bloodlines isn't a good example because of the 'aiming', plus you didn't have a party in the game so that doesn't count.

But look at Dungeon Siege 2: You have to approach the guy and then click with you right mouse button to hit him once every time you click it; and the defense is done automaticly by your computer (depending on your luck, really). Seeing that where you approach the guy and hit him by clicking a mouse button on him once to hit him once, will make everyone stop whining. I hope I made sense.
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Old 12-17-2005, 10:16 PM   #109
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I think the freedom to have in combat could be an interesting thing to see done, but it might also have some downsides to it, and although i voted yes out of curiosity, i realized that the d20 system could be one of the reasons that KOTOR is so good of a series...so against my own poll, i dont think the freedom you want in combat is a good idea, at least for the KOTOR series.


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Old 12-17-2005, 10:51 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
But look at Dungeon Siege 2: You have to approach the guy and then click with you right mouse button to hit him once every time you click it; and the defense is done automaticly by your computer (depending on your luck, really). Seeing that where you approach the guy and hit him by clicking a mouse button on him once to hit him once, will make everyone stop whining. I hope I made sense.
That's actually hack'n slash.
Very different then what KotOR is all about.

I realize that in hack'n slash games, defense and stats are still very relevent, but it relies a lot more on point and click then on strategy, which is the path the KotOR games took.


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Old 12-18-2005, 12:46 AM   #111
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can we get redhawke and luke back in here? they've got much more guided and sensical discussion to add.
You asked for it!

Seriously though, kudos to Vlad for actually taking the time to look at the D20 rules, that shows initative and a desire for understanding...

+20 Cool Points for Vlad!


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Old 12-18-2005, 06:55 AM   #112
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+20 points from me too - I love it when a discussion does not end in flaming and the participants actually take the time to back their arguments up
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Old 12-18-2005, 03:37 PM   #113
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Well if you dont back it up, then its not really an argument then is it?...good job...


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Old 12-19-2005, 02:13 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by YertyL
I love it when a discussion does not end in flaming and the participants actually take the time to back their arguments up
I do too!

Even though I don't personally like the D20 system for Star Wars, it is fine for Fantasy games. I do encourage everyone try the game out with a few victims... er'... friends, it can be quite fun.

Just so you know Vlad if they did integrate those 2 rules you listed I would personally go for it! It would make you think twice about running from combat.


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Old 12-21-2005, 07:48 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YertyL
I love it when a discussion does not end in flaming and the participants actually take the time to back their arguments up
that was probably a crack at me, but at any rate, its hard to back up an argument like this, which is pretty much an opinion based argument. You cant really "win" or "lose" one like this
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Old 12-21-2005, 12:34 PM   #116
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you got that right but every argument has to be supported with facts.

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