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Old 11-12-2005, 12:45 PM   #1
MxBxZ
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comment on the locked "SABER THROW HACK" thread

Kurgan said:
"Sadly it seems in JK2, there was less emphasis on fixing bugs and exploits like this than in adding stuff like jetpacks, grapple hooks, new saber types and moves, and "admin features" like the ability to make players explode with the touch of a button to "punish" them for some imagined wrong-doing like forgetting to use an "emote" before a duel."

wrong. there are horrible mods in jk2, but nothing like the insane garbage in JKA. There are no mods that add jetpacks, grapplehooks, moves and saber types. This is JKA. other than changing stock force regen to 0, the JK2 mods don't change gameplay. One of the many reasons why jk2 is still the superior gaming community over jka (which isn't saying much at all). At least I can go into a gun server and kill people without them flying away with a grapplehook or jetpack cheat.
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Old 11-12-2005, 01:26 PM   #2
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Thumbs down I can understand your desire to defend JK2, but get your facts straight!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MxBxZ
Kurgan said:
"Sadly it seems in JK2, there was less emphasis on fixing bugs and exploits like this than in adding stuff like jetpacks, grapple hooks, new saber types and moves, and "admin features" like the ability to make players explode with the touch of a button to "punish" them for some imagined wrong-doing like forgetting to use an "emote" before a duel."

wrong. there are horrible mods in jk2, but nothing like the insane garbage in JKA. There are no mods that add jetpacks, grapplehooks, moves and saber types. This is JKA. other than changing stock force regen to 0, the JK2 mods don't change gameplay. One of the many reasons why jk2 is still the superior gaming community over jka (which isn't saying much at all). At least I can go into a gun server and kill people without them flying away with a grapplehook or jetpack cheat.
I'm not sure what you're talking about. There definately were mods that added jetpacks and grapple hooks to JK2. There were mods that added the saber staff (though I think they all just generally used "thedestroyer" cheat and put it into the regular game, sometimes with an different stance animation) and the double sabers. Both of which were different than how they turned out in JA of course!

Mods existed that added two "bonus" saber stances, purple and orange, which corresponded roughly to the single player stances used by "Tavion" and "Desann."

Plenty of gameplay changing mods were created for JK2, I don't know where you get off saying they didn't exist. Where were you from 2002-2003? You can still find them on places like jk2files.com, pcgamemods.com, and elsewhere. Admin mods were just as prevelant, if not more prevelant (and unchallenged) in JK2 as in JA. In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find an admin mod today in JK2 that DOESN'T have the abusive admin commands. Nowadays the only abusive mods left in JA are DC Mod, Xmod2, and RedSlushie (though there's some confusion about this last one... it may be that the latest version doesn't have this, or some spinoff of it, I don't know for certain). Chosen One and Slider have both de-abusified their mods, so I don't see the problem here. The majority of people using them still use the non-abusive versions.

As for people not using forceregentime 0 in JK2, I find that hard to believe. The principle is that a lot of gamers are lazy. They also hate to learn new things once they consider themselves to have "learned" the game and win. So they use this setting because they don't have to conserve force, they don't have to strategize and wait for their mana to come back. It's like having infinite ammo and never needing to look for pickups. It lets them spam all day long, but they complain if others use it to beat them. Go figure. So anyway, I see nothing in JK2 that prevents them from having this same mentality as in JA.

I don't consider the JK2 community to be so much more above the behavior in the JA community. The fact is that many of the people from there came over here. Both games appeal to the same sorts of people, and the mods for each are very similar (though the JA versions tend to be more advanced due to the enhanced engine the game uses and because it was flashier and newer).

And finally, JA always has more servers than JK2. How do you explain that? A larger percentage of JK2 servers are using abusive admin mods and restricted to sabers only/restricted force. So if anything you'll find more variety in the JA community, even if you have idiots and noobs in both.

I hope you didn't want to troll, but in answer to your question, sorry, but you couldn't be more wrong. Example after example bears this out!

The main point of my post was to say that the same problems exist in both communities, but AT LEAST there was some effort made in the JA community to create bug fixes for stuff that was in the basic game created by Raven. The general principle of JK2 mods was to change gameplay or add features, not to fix bugs already in the game. And it seemed like every mod just copied and pasted the same abusive commands. In JA the huge backlash against such commands has lead most mod makers to alter their mods to remove these or tone them down heavily. Forceregentime 0 is not really a mod issue, as I stated in the other thread.

And finally I invite you to visit my server anytime. You don't need to worry about honorz or about "jetpacks and grapple hooks" (the only person with a Jetpack is Fett, on Tatooine Desert Siege, as the Raven developers intended!) or "insane cheats" (since we only use OJP mod which has no abusive commands).


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Old 11-12-2005, 02:09 PM   #3
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Quote:
I'm not sure what you're talking about. There definately were mods that added jetpacks and grapple hooks to JK2.
Such as? I've played JK2 for years and never seen either. The mod all the newbies use is JAmod and it doesn't have them.

Quote:
Mods existed that added two "bonus" saber stances, purple and orange, which corresponded roughly to the single player stances used by "Tavion" and "Desann."
mmm hmm, I remember that. nobody uses them anymore.

Quote:
. In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find an admin mod today in JK2 that DOESN'T have the abusive admin commands.
While I find the admin commands silly, I don't find them as big of a deal as amidala and yourself do. I have a bigger problem with insane cheat mods like grapplehooks, jetpacks, and gameplay altering with 0 regen and the like.

Quote:
As for people not using forceregentime 0 in JK2, I find that hard to believe.
Ah but I didn't say that. I said that the only major problem with the JK2 newbie mods is the 0 regen. Anyways, all of your arguments are just regurgitations of stuff I said years ago on this board.

Quote:
Mods existed that added two "bonus" saber stances, purple and orange, which corresponded roughly to the single player stances used by "Tavion" and "Desann."
Quote:
I don't consider the JK2 community to be so much more above the behavior in the JA community
The JK2 newbie servers are far more willing to actually fight and FFA than in JKA. Furthermore, since 99% of the jka servers have grapplehooks and jetpacks, FFA is impossible on them even if one wanted to do it.

Quote:
And finally, JA always has more servers than JK2. How do you explain that?
Because JKA is the newer game and it has OMFG DARTH MAUL SABERS AND NEW SKINZ LMFAO SWEET DOOD

Quote:
The main point of my post was to say that the same problems exist in both communities, but AT LEAST there was some effort made in the JA community to create bug fixes for stuff that was in the basic game created by Raven.
1.04 JK2 has no serious bugs, so there was no reason to attempt to fix anything.

Quote:
The general principle of JK2 mods was to change gameplay or add features, not to fix bugs already in the game
Dude...have you even played jk2 multiplayer? The general principle of JKA mods was to CHANGE GAMEPLAY AND ADD FEATURES. The only thing the mods in jk2 do is change force regen to 0 by default and add the admin commands like amslap and that ****. There are no gameplay changes other than 0 regen. There CERTAINLY are no gameplay changes as drastic as in JA+ which turns JA into an RPG basically, since playing it as an FPS is impossible.

Quote:
Forceregentime 0 is not really a mod issue, as I stated in the other thread.
Wrong. it's totally a mod issue. You see, I remember when nobody used 0 regen. This was back in jk2, even as late as 1.04, ALL servers were legit regen. The first mod that I ever saw that switched regen to 0 by default was Sliders mod in JKA. JAmod in JK2 followed suit and did this as well. The result was newbies who used these mods learned to play like this and thought it was the proper way to play, and now refuse to play on proper settings. Kurgan, just smile, nod your head, agree with everything I say, and pretend you know these games as well as I do
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Old 11-12-2005, 08:49 PM   #4
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Post not trying to flame here, so don't take this the wrong way...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MxBxZ
Such as? I've played JK2 for years and never seen either. The mod all the newbies use is JAmod and it doesn't have them.
Okay I did a quick check on ASE and you're right, Jedi Academy Mod is the most popular JK2 mod right now (92 servers), although DC Mod has 37 servers (so it's grown in popularity I guess), DS-Lite (whatever that is) has like 19 servers (with two "DS-Online" servers which might be related), 10 C-JK Mod servers, 9 JaPLUS Mod servers, four Auto Mod servers, four Disruption servers, 2 Duelers Mod servers and the rest are on like only one or two servers (JediMod, ForceMod, Movie Battles, KWP, Sniper City Public, QoF, United Mod, DB Mod. Looks like NOBODY using OmniMod, ProMod, XMod, Gen-X Mod, Balance of the Force, JK2++ or JediMoves Mod. 134 out of 321 servers have "no mods."

Quote:
mmm hmm, I remember that. nobody uses them anymore.
Oh well, my point was they existed.

Quote:
While I find the admin commands silly, I don't find them as big of a deal as amidala and yourself do. I have a bigger problem with insane cheat mods like grapplehooks, jetpacks, and gameplay altering with 0 regen and the like.
I'd consider the admins who slap, sleep, slay, explode, empower, bunny, teleport, terminate, whatever much more of a threat to serious competative gameplay than some silly jetpacks or grapple hooks. Honestly I have no problem with gameplay altering mods. It's when they prevent you from playing that it gets bad, which is what the abusive commands do. Don't tell me you were one of those folks who felt that "Honorable gameplay" trumped all... 'cause if you are then this discussion is over.

I agree with you that the grapple hooks and jet packs thrown haphazardly into FFA do not exactly enhance the skill of that gametype. It changes everything. However, I hope you don't think I'm foolish for harping on the abusive commands while you harp on these features.

Quote:
Ah but I didn't say that. I said that the only major problem with the JK2 newbie mods is the 0 regen.
Fine, that's a black mark against both games, because it was a problem in both games. However, saying it was the ONLY problem is flat out wrong. The abusive commands were a major problem. The "honorz" mentality was rampant in the JK2 community as it was in the JA community. These guys used to just votekick people who beat them and accuse them of cheating when they lost. The abusive commands let them unleash their wrath on good players and people who played the game normally. Mod makers at least went back and "fixed" their admin mods to remove those abusive features in JA.

You're acting as if the JK2 community has cleaned up their act and now just play the game as intended, and don't use gameplay altering mods. I highly doubt you can say that about JK2 but not about JA. Grapple Hooks and Jetpacks may not be being used on "every server" but those aren't the only features or settings that destroy the traditional gameplay that Raven developed.

Quote:
Anyways, all of your arguments are just regurgitations of stuff I said years ago on this board.
So you agree with me? If so, then I wonder why we're "arguing." Or are you saying that you were wrong in the past (when you thought as I do now)?

Quote:
The JK2 newbie servers are far more willing to actually fight and FFA than in JKA. Furthermore, since 99% of the jka servers have grapplehooks and jetpacks, FFA is impossible on them even if one wanted to do it.
Are they? If voting is enabled, or if they have an abusive mod running, then I would not stake my gameplaying time on that. All it takes is one or two "honorz" people to ruin it for everyone, unless the admin (and all of his subadmins) are strictly competative "no rules" types. 99% you say?

Again, we need to get slider in here. What you're saying is the 51% (not 99%) of servers that run JA+ have grapple hooks and jet packs enabled. He claims that they are not present, exept perhaps in the "honor" dimension of FFA, not in CTF, and not in the default "non honor, normal gameplay" dimension of FFA. So unless you join the "honor dimension" you shouldn't have to worry about them.

Look I spent countless posts bashing slider's mod in the past, but he's convinced me that he's "reformed" it now. If I'm wrong, I'd like to see him explain it to both our satisfaction...

Quote:
Because JKA is the newer game and it has OMFG DARTH MAUL SABERS AND NEW SKINZ LMFAO SWEET DOOD
I don't see what's wrong with this. Are you bashing JA because it's a newer game with new features? C'mon, admit it, most people in the JK2 community wanted that stuff too, which is why you have thedestroyer and mods that enable it, and that's why you have countless star wars skins and hilt packs etc. That's honestly no reason to bash the new game.

It just paints you as a snob who considers "your" game (JK2) mature, while the "noobs" and fanboys all went to JA and therefore we're beneath you.

Not saying you can't hold that opinion if you want, but seriously, even though this is the JK2 forum, do you really think you'll win friends by saying stuff like that? It's borderline flamebait.

Quote:
1.04 JK2 has no serious bugs, so there was no reason to attempt to fix anything.
LOL... you're serious? Many of the bugs that were left in JK2 1.04 were discovered in JA. Many of them were fixed in JA 1.01 but plenty still remain and are being fixed (or have been fixed) in OJP. I guess it depends on what you mean by "serious" (does JA 1.01 have more "serious" bugs in your opinion?).

One I can think of right off the bat is the rocket lock bug (you could lock onto somebody with a rocket that fired as fast and only used up as much ammo as a primary rocket). There were also plenty of map exploits (you could use mines to throw yourself up to many spots in CTF for example or hide in the infamous "cubby hole" on Nar Shaddaa). You could throw your saber into a door and lose it forever. There was one that had something about spectator mode and an invisible saber throw too iirc. The list goes on.

I'm sure you can still download the various videos people have made showing them doing exploits in both games.

And there were of course exploits that many people liked and so didn't consider them exploits, like the ability to grip somebody behind a wall, or strafe running/bunny hopping. And to say nothing of scripting... but that's more of a feature that some people consider exploitable, not a "bug."

I imagine many, if not most of the "wiggling super block/super damage" moves that exist in JA still existed in JK2 1.04, because they were related to the old moves of the single saber.

No game is perfect, and adding new features ievitably means more things can get broken but still. The dichotomy you're creating between the "good" game and good community (JK2) vs. the "bad" game and "bad" community (JA) is not based on anything except opinion. At least I can point you to places where the JA community has tried to improve. In many ways we haven't changed, so it's not better or worse than JK2, just different. Many of those differences though, I happen to prefer. That doesn't mean I can't have my say, or that liking it makes me a "noob" or less skilled.


Quote:
Dude...have you even played jk2 multiplayer? The general principle of JKA mods was to CHANGE GAMEPLAY AND ADD FEATURES.
Uh yeah, I was here from the beginning. I don't play JK2 anymore, but I was with it in the early days. I'm not that out of touch, bub.

The general principle of mods in general is to change something, and all code mods changed gameplay. There's no other reason to use code! Otherwise it's just visual stuff like skins or saber colors. Well then you have maps and such, but still. You pretend that no gameplay changing mods existed for JK2, which is flat out false.

Quote:
The only thing the mods in jk2 do is change force regen to 0 by default and add the admin commands like amslap and that ****.

There are no gameplay changes other than 0 regen. There CERTAINLY are no gameplay changes as drastic as in JA+ which turns JA into an RPG basically, since playing it as an FPS is impossible.
No, they also did things like make multiple saber challenges possible, add "emotes" that gave you partial protection from certain attacks, added stances, added dual sabers/saber staff, added jetpacks, etc. Now before you start again... NOT EVERY MOD DID EVERYTHING AT ONCE (and they still don't), but all of these types of things you criticize existed in JK2, and most before they existed in JA. Mods existed that changed the saber system such as Master of the Force (iirc), ProMod, etc. and changed the way blocks worked and added dodging, or first person sabers. ProMod was the most extensive, adding a "class" system based on points assigned to sabers or guns on a spectrum (and it had Jetpacks! But most who actually played it, consider ProMod to have been a "good" mod). MovieBattles added a ranking system with some "RPG" (for lack of a better term) elements and objectives. You had SAGA, which was based on an unfinished concept by Raven Software and expanded into a new game mode (that unfinished concept, along with another unifinished concept "Jedi vs. Merc" eventually evolved into JA's Siege, if you're curious). The list goes on. But you're acting as if those mods didn't exist, and all we had were some admin mods that all did the same thing. Didn't Xmod have many of the features of Xmod2? If so, then it must have let you change the damage of all the weapons in the game, so that counts as a gameplay change. There was also Colloseum Mod, but IIRC that was SP only (correct me if I'm wrong).

Then you contrast this with JA with its "gameplay changing mods" by which you only mention JA+, but you really should include Red Slushie, Xmod2, MovieBattles2, RPG Mod (or whatever it's called), the various space mods (like Asteroids), Melee Mod, HydroBall2 (which reminds me, that means there was a Hydroball 1!), etc.

While you are right about JA+ earlier... JA+ today is fully capable of being played as a normal FPS. Unless you go to the optional "Honorz dimension" (which apparently the admin has to "invite you in", and once you're in you can't interfere with the people in the default dimension), you ARE playing basejka. Again, if I'm wrong, then let slider or RP correct me, as that's how he explained it to me.

Quote:
Wrong. it's totally a mod issue. You see, I remember when nobody used 0 regen. This was back in jk2, even as late as 1.04, ALL servers were legit regen.
But you don't need a mod to use it, as I've said before. Don't tell me that "nobody knew" this feature existed before the mods came out, because it was published along with the first dedicated server distributions long before the first patch (which took 3 months to come out if you recall).

It is true that slider's mod's default template included 0 regen and that most people who used his mod never changed it from this, and got used to using it, etc etc. but anway, it only exasperated and existing problem. Now that his mod no longer includes that, you can't blame that all on him in JA. It hasn't had that for a long time.

Quote:
The first mod that I ever saw that switched regen to 0 by default was Sliders mod in JKA. JAmod in JK2 followed suit and did this as well.
It did? So that's an entire year after JK2 came out. Are you sure about this?

As I recall people started whining about 4-6 months after the game was out, but I could be mistaken. You're saying the problem first occured in JA and then filtered back to JK2. I'd say it was the opposite. Why did the abusive commands occur first in JK2 and then spring up immediately in JA? The forceregen 0 is just part of the noob mentality that was born in JK2.

I remember there was a time when people didn't do that honor stuff. People didn't start whining about the mana not recharging or not being able to "amsit." They did votekick people who beat them, and demand people be kicked for "hacking" but it didn't seem to have the widespread approval it would later get. Eventually though community standards fell. You had the honorz noobs running servers. You had mod makers catering to these guys and their whims. Then JA came out and those mod makers and admins moved to the new game and continued business as usual. It's only then that you had people getting fed up, striking back and demanding that the mod makers clean up their act and start promoting "alternative" (ironic name!) servers that just had the normal gameplay. If some of that reform spirit also occured in JK2, and continues to this day, good for them. But I think again you're painting it as if JA "ruined" everything in both communities. It's more likely to be the fault with the JK2 community since they were established first. They had a whole year to fall into the corruption of the honor code and the abusive admin mods.

Quote:
The result was newbies who used these mods learned to play like this and thought it was the proper way to play, and now refuse to play on proper settings.
I agree. This was a problem. It's still a problem for noobs who don't understand how hosting these games works, and they honestly think that admin mods are REQUIRED to admin a server (hence the name!). But at least there are fewer honorz noob-friendly mods out there in general circulation among the server admins, which means more places for the genuine players amongst us who are left to play...

Quote:
Kurgan, just smile, nod your head, agree with everything I say, and pretend you know these games as well as I do
Pretend??? Okay, now that's just patronizing nonsense. I won't even dignify this last part with a rebuttal.


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Old 11-12-2005, 09:35 PM   #5
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PS: I take it you wanted a debate when you started this, so don't be offended if I use long posts and quote you line by line. As long as this remains civil I don't see a problem in continuing it...

PPS: Did some quick research and Jedi Academy Mod for JK2 had both double sabers and dual sabers. It was a cvar (and "empowered" players got them right off the bat even if others didn't have them set). JediPLUS mod has the "purple & orange" stances, but there may be others.


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Old 11-13-2005, 11:04 AM   #6
MxBxZ
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YAWN

i'm mediablitz. you're wrong, i'm right.

Wasn't that so much easier than making a big post?

too long, didn't read btw
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Old 11-13-2005, 01:27 PM   #7
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Concession accepted.


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Old 11-13-2005, 01:30 PM   #8
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actually "i'm mediablitz" was my rebuttal
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Old 11-13-2005, 02:10 PM   #9
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Wink

So who are you going to brag to this time?


Edit: Nevermind, looks like both his accounts got banned. See you in six months then!


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Old 11-13-2005, 09:40 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MxBxZ
actually "i'm mediablitz" was my rebuttal
lmao this kills me. and Promod was one of the best implimentations of jetpacks in any MP game i've played. was a true gunner vs jedi scenario, and guns still won, the nutri vs laz vid on own-age

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Old 11-13-2005, 09:43 PM   #11
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0wnt


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