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Old 12-01-2005, 06:37 PM   #41
Vladimir-Vlada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Because it is overpowered, at it's base, overpowered. The ability to both deflect ranged attacks and counter them by standing still without having any penalty is unbalanced.
You are not a GOD of martial arts to deflect any blow. Unless you use cheats.
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Old 12-01-2005, 06:45 PM   #42
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Well,that's where you are mistaken. Due to the ease of the KotOR games, it is quite possible to become a "God," as you call it, at blaster deflection. However, this usually comes at the penalty of a low attack strength. No such attack penalty exists here, so, to limit your "Godliness," Deflection would take a hit. It's how RPGs work. Great bonuses are coupled with great penalties.

Only thing that would be acceptable to me is an additional attack feat for ranged weapons, which incorporates a close range weapon-bash melee attack. Does less damage than a normal shot, but increases defense temporarily, or something. Even that's crossing the line though, that's sort of in the FPS realm.




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Old 12-01-2005, 06:54 PM   #43
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That wouldn't be too bad an idea actually. Even if it's FPS like. Though it also kills the purpose of being able to switch to melee weapons.


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Old 12-01-2005, 07:01 PM   #44
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You could become a 'god' according to the strength of the character. But in blaster deflection... I don't think so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mono_Giganto
Even that's crossing the line though, that's sort of in the FPS realm.
Bioware, Obsidian and Lucas Arts already stepped into almost every realm in existence with single products. They won't stop: Star Wars, as a mark, was meant to break rules in every genre it presents itself. It's what makes it great. Deal with it.
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Old 12-01-2005, 07:57 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
That wouldn't be too bad an idea actually. Even if it's FPS like. Though it also kills the purpose of being able to switch to melee weapons.
Well, I didn't plan on it being nearly as powerful as, say, your suped up lightsaber or vibrosword. But it gives the strict gunners a little move for close range if they get swarmed. It'd be ideal if you shot the crap out of something as it approached your gunner, then used a melee hit to finish it off, giving you a small defense boost for that round too. Then there's no hassle of switching to a melee weapon just for one hit.

Sadly, since feats have a habit of being hardcoded, it's not a mod possibility, OE would actually have to do it.

And as for blaster deflection, with the right upgrades, you can add close to 20+ to your deflection roll. Do that in a double saber, and it's 20+ for both blades. Then there's a +10 (Or is it +6?) if you invest in all levels of Jedi Defense. Then there are the saber forms which add +5 or so. so, lets just say 30+ Deflection now. All you have to do is roll higher than them to deflect. Pretty sure that boost will give you the higher roll, when coupled with your natural roll. In fact, I wouldn't be suprised to see most shots redirected back to their targets. You can indeed become a deflection god.




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Old 12-06-2005, 02:44 PM   #46
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It's all technical to me but I thought the ability to hold a blaster and a saber or vibroblade would be cool. If it is going to take work on the part of the devs, then I would rather they concentrate on the storyline.

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Old 12-07-2005, 08:36 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by JediMaster12
If it is going to take work on the part of the devs, then I would rather they concentrate on the storyline.
Geez, people! They only have to type in 20 numbers.
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Old 12-07-2005, 11:28 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
Geez, people! They only have to type in 20 numbers.
Well then, the only problem is: Will they type the 20 numbers?


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Old 12-07-2005, 11:52 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Cygnus Q'ol
Well then, the only problem is: Will they type the 20 numbers?
Yes that's what I thought. Because what is sugested here is more of a harmless bug (from their point of view), rather than something that could bring down the entire D20 system.
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Old 12-07-2005, 12:21 PM   #50
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Even though I have my reasons for wanting this particular option, I have a bad feeling about this. Not too many people seemed to find it as interesting or useful. So perhaps, the devs will think of it as a waste of time, or maybe not at all. I just feel this game is going to need a lot to bringback the exitement of the '03 game of the year.


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Old 12-07-2005, 01:29 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cygnus Q'ol
Not too many people seemed to find it as interesting or useful.
I think that that is mainly because those many people are hardcore RPG players. And they think that by seeing something that wasn't inserted earlier, be it great or not, is going into FPS. But what they don't want to admit is that Obisidan and Bioware broke several major rules in the RPG basis to make KOTOR.
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Old 12-07-2005, 01:42 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
I think that that is mainly because those many people are hardcore RPG players. And they think that by seeing something that wasn't inserted earlier, be it great or not, is going into FPS. But what they don't want to admit is that Obisidan and Bioware broke several major rules in the RPG basis to make KOTOR.
Thank the stars. I love the concept of a hybrid RPG with the level of detail that Kotor brings. However, there will have to be another 'level up' as far as the Devs are concerned. A carbon copy of K2 simply won't cut it.


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Old 12-07-2005, 01:51 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cygnus Q'ol
A carbon copy of K2 simply won't cut it.
That's what I think as well. Too many rules have been broken, to be repaired now.
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Old 12-07-2005, 04:51 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
Geez, people! They only have to type in 20 numbers.
Heh, okay, they type in the 20 numbers and do nothing else. Now, you load the game, equip a gun and a sword, and perform an attack. Your character suddenly jumps to an upright snow angel pose, shots fire from the gun, but the player doesn't move at all.

And then there's the coding involved to make the game function properly with 2 different types of weapons equipped at the same time, as it would be a new feature.


Yeah, 'typing in 20 numbers' is a huge understatement.




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Old 12-07-2005, 06:10 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mono_Giganto
Yeah, 'typing in 20 numbers' is a huge understatement.
Look I know that I overexagerated and I am sorry for that. But the feature is not that bad. Besides what would it change if it's inserted; First you say that it will make people abbandon the single sabre, then you say that it will cause over empowering of single sabre wielders.. I really don't understand why can this bring so much disbalance, it will only be for looks. It would make a penalty like with two melee weapons, only bigger. That's all.

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Old 12-08-2005, 01:30 AM   #56
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^^^^
Sorry Vlad but Mono is correct... The penalties would outweigh the usefulness of the so-called form, and in these instances, for example in PnP sessions, as a GM you could allow the player to use this form, but swiftly the player would find out that it sucks... hopefully before his characters hit-points quickly reached 0.

So why include any development time for such a thing in the game.

Also...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
I think that that is mainly because those many people are hardcore RPG players. And they think that by seeing something that wasn't inserted earlier, be it great or not, is going into FPS. But what they don't want to admit is that Obisidan and Bioware broke several major rules in the RPG basis to make KOTOR.
Still a sore spot there I see...

Bioware and OE broke no rules making KOTOR and TSL, they are 'Pure' RPG's... just because the ADD Generation, "button-mashing", adrenaline junkie, console kiddies cannot seem to grasp the concept of what a 'Pure' RPG is, is unimportant!


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Old 12-08-2005, 09:39 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by RedHawke
So why include any development time for such a thing in the game.
Gamers don't need to use it. And even thoug it will be amost useless, some people would want to still use it even though it would make the game seem like it is way too hard, they will just accept the fact that it is very stupid, but still hold their teeth and use it because they like it.

I know I will.

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Originally Posted by RedHawke
Bioware and OE broke no rules making KOTOR and TSL, they are 'Pure' RPG's...
Oh, you didn't notice that my friend.

Of course, they didn't break the rules from the point of view of the game play. BUT they broke, at least, 5 rulse concerning the story.

Let me explain:

In the law of the RPG world there is always the law that states: Never continue the story of the previous one, if it is called 'Neverwinter Nights 2'. And I agree with them since any RPG with any knid of story, any kind of name and any kind is destined to be great; and it becomes great.
But in KOTOR... They broke those rules. Let me show you which:

1. Of course, any normal RPG would throw away the story of the previous one like it didn't exist; And I thought that they were going to do that with TSL. But instead, they continued the story from the first one, making a plot for a triology, which is forbbiden to any RPG out there. But they still did it.

2. In the RPGs as well, you can't have characters from the previous game in the squel so they are off the hook. But Bioware and Obsidian inserted, not just one character from the prequel, but 6 characters: Carth, Bastila, Canderous, T3, HK and Vrook. That's breaking the rules if you ask me.

3. In squels, you cannot mention the main character or his/her name in the squel EVER. But in TSL, Revan was like a central character.

I have to stop now, this post is stepping into another topic.
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Old 12-08-2005, 02:36 PM   #58
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Heh. First off, that's only 3, maybe 4, if you include the first bold part.

And, sure, they can mention the prequel character's name, especially in a case like this, where the first game's main character gets a 'standard' name after a certain point in the game. It's like if they didn't give you the option to name the character at all. The only reason they tend to stay away from naming the past characters in games like this is because the name was customizable. And the KotOR series is definitely not the only RPG series to do it, remember the old Dragon Warrior/Quest games? (New one looks pretty good.) Specifically I, II, and III. Well known, traditional RPGs. The main character of the third game, Loto/Erdrick, is mentioned throughout the other two. (Not sure about the new one.) He also has a full set of armor, complete with helmet and shield, a sword, and a seal listed as "Loto's ___" ingame. Breath of Fire is another example, with the main character, Ryu, being mentioned between games.

And by the way, I never said anything about overpowering single sabers. I gave you the technical arguement about why inserting the option would be a waste of time. This time around, I want my story first. If they make crappy models, we can fix that, at least.




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Old 12-08-2005, 11:40 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
Let me explain:

In the law of the RPG world there is always the law that states: Never continue the story of the previous one, if it is called 'Neverwinter Nights 2'. And I agree with them since any RPG with any knid of story, any kind of name and any kind is destined to be great; and it becomes great.
But in KOTOR... They broke those rules. Let me show you which:

1. Of course, any normal RPG would throw away the story of the previous one like it didn't exist; And I thought that they were going to do that with TSL. But instead, they continued the story from the first one, making a plot for a triology, which is forbbiden to any RPG out there. But they still did it.

2. In the RPGs as well, you can't have characters from the previous game in the squel so they are off the hook. But Bioware and Obsidian inserted, not just one character from the prequel, but 6 characters: Carth, Bastila, Canderous, T3, HK and Vrook. That's breaking the rules if you ask me.

3. In squels, you cannot mention the main character or his/her name in the squel EVER. But in TSL, Revan was like a central character.

I have to stop now, this post is stepping into another topic.
Is this actually true? If it is, then these "rules" for RPG are pretty damn stupid. By definition, a game can't be a "sequel" when it has pretty much zero to do with whatever came before it.

Where did you get these rules from?


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Old 12-09-2005, 03:21 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by IndianaSolo
Is this actually true? If it is, then these "rules" for RPG are pretty damn stupid. By definition, a game can't be a "sequel" when it has pretty much zero to do with whatever came before it.

Where did you get these rules from?
Vlad made them up out of thin air IndianaSolo so don't worry.

@ Vlad your so-called RPG story rules make no sense, and it would benefit you to venture back to the older venerable RPG's and giving them a shot before stating things steadfastly like you have.

Also as a game developer you will not put any rescources into a game option that very few players would even use, let alone would grant no benefits to use other than "looks"... in an RPG that's just silly!

The Melee/Ranged Mix options cannot be viable, it is one of the oldest attempted styles/exploits in RPG's and it fails every time! Your best bet would be a GunSword style, but still you could only use it as either Ranged or Melee in a single round, never can you do both.

Sorry, Vlad I just don't buy this whole discussion!


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Old 12-09-2005, 08:13 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mono_Giganto
And, sure, they can mention the prequel character's name, especially in a case like this, where the first game's main character gets a 'standard' name after a certain point in the game. It's like if they didn't give you the option to name the character at all. The only reason they tend to stay away from naming the past characters in games like this is because the name was customizable. And the KotOR series is definitely not the only RPG series to do it, remember the old Dragon Warrior/Quest games? (New one looks pretty good.) Specifically I, II, and III. Well known, traditional RPGs. The main character of the third game, Loto/Erdrick, is mentioned throughout the other two. (Not sure about the new one.) He also has a full set of armor, complete with helmet and shield, a sword, and a seal listed as "Loto's ___" ingame. Breath of Fire is another example, with the main character, Ryu, being mentioned between games.
Oh. Sorry, then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawke
Also as a game developer you will not put any rescources into a game option that very few players would even use, let alone would grant no benefits to use other than "looks"... in an RPG that's just silly!
Why do you say that? People do that often you know.

Take Diablo 2 for example. The thing is the most played RPG in the entire country here; The thing is older than my brother and people still play it (I don't play it because it gets boring to me after five minutes so I turn always to Jedi Academy to push my adrenaline and cheerfulness back). For the Horadric Cube they insert tons of completely useless combinations which no one uses. But yet, Blizzard still makes patches. So it's not as bad as it looks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawke
The Melee/Ranged Mix options cannot be viable, it is one of the oldest attempted styles/exploits in RPG's and it fails every time! Your best bet would be a GunSword style, but still you could only use it as either Ranged or Melee in a single round, never can you do both.
You can use penalties to solve that problem. You get 1/99999999999999999 chanses of hitting the opponent if you use both.

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Sorry, Vlad I just don't buy this whole discussion!
It's not that bad. (I think)
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Old 12-09-2005, 11:20 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by RedHawke
Vlad made them up out of thin air IndianaSolo so don't worry.

@ Vlad your so-called RPG story rules make no sense, and it would benefit you to venture back to the older venerable RPG's and giving them a shot before stating things steadfastly like you have.

Also as a game developer you will not put any rescources into a game option that very few players would even use, let alone would grant no benefits to use other than "looks"... in an RPG that's just silly!

The Melee/Ranged Mix options cannot be viable, it is one of the oldest attempted styles/exploits in RPG's and it fails every time! Your best bet would be a GunSword style, but still you could only use it as either Ranged or Melee in a single round, never can you do both.

Sorry, Vlad I just don't buy this whole discussion!
Well, I suppose that's your opinion and you are entitled to it.
Really, though, it's up to the developers and what they've decided to do with the next game.

I really don't see the problem with holding a short saber and deflecting blaster shots, then firing back down the corridor at my enemies. Perhaps, I'm a jedi in training and I can't let go of my blasters just yet. If that costs me points, then so be it. If that seems unnatural to those pure sabarist, then refrain from using this option.

Perhaps this could only work at a certain distance or something. It's just an option for the player. If you don't want the penalties, then, by all means, don't use this option. But, why limit me on my choices?

I'm not trying to ruffle feathers, everyone has their own opinions.
It doesn't matter what we say anyway. When/if the game is made, we'll all play it the way they make it. I'm sure it's gonna be fun. I can't wait.


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Old 12-09-2005, 05:53 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by RedHawke
Vlad made them up out of thin air IndianaSolo so don't worry.
I was going to say, if that was the case then most great cRPGs that I can recall all broke his so-called rules, since both Baldurs Gate 2 and Fallout 2 had sequels that had a lot to do with the previous game's stories/universe/characters. Even IWD 2 made mention of the events in IWD.


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Old 12-09-2005, 06:22 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
For the Horadric Cube they insert tons of completely useless combinations which no one uses. But yet, Blizzard still makes patches. So it's not as bad as it looks.
Not the same thing. The Horadric cube recipe was a cool concept at first. It allowed you to convert some useless equipment to more useful ones. However, notice the error they made. Most of these useless combinations have a better and less troublemaking alternative.
If holding a saber and blaster has a less troublemaking alternative, guess what will happen.

Quote:
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But, why limit me on my choices?
Because giving you more choices will mean spend more money for a very small number of people.

Oh, and I want to have sex with the Handmaiden on the Ebon Hawk. A pure explicit sex scene. Then maybe an orgy with all the other attractive females.
Hey, it's my choice and it's just an option!


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Old 12-09-2005, 06:38 PM   #65
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Interesting example....

Guess it makes the point though.




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Old 12-09-2005, 10:34 PM   #66
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A saber AND a blaster just seems... un-Star Wars like....


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Old 12-10-2005, 08:04 AM   #67
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Oh, and I want to have sex with the Handmaiden on the Ebon Hawk. A pure explicit sex scene. Then maybe an orgy with all the other attractive females.
Hey, it's my choice and it's just an option!
That is complete over-exagerating. And guess what? Porn in game=S**t in game. Because Porn=S**t.
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Old 12-10-2005, 08:22 AM   #68
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^^^^
Here goes Vlad calling LIAYD for over-exaggerating then going off on an over-exaggerating tangent of his own about Porn!

Pure comedy!

Edit: Thanks Vlad, I needed some humor right now!


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Old 12-10-2005, 08:39 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
That is complete over-exagerating. And guess what? Porn in game=S**t in game. Because Porn=S**t.

I could go and say dual wielding a saber and a blaster=**** in games, because dual wielding a saber and a blaster = ****.

Same logic. Besides, it's only an option. You don't have to choose it.


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Old 12-10-2005, 08:41 AM   #70
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Okay guys, we don't need a flame fest started here. Keep on topic.


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Old 12-10-2005, 08:45 AM   #71
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Uh, we are on topic and there has been no flaming as of yet.


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Old 12-10-2005, 08:47 AM   #72
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Never mind, continue.


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Old 12-10-2005, 09:53 AM   #73
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You guys are great. This is so funny now.




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Old 12-10-2005, 10:40 AM   #74
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And the funny just keeps on going....


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Old 12-10-2005, 10:52 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
In the law of the RPG world there is always the law that states: Never continue the story of the previous one, if it is called 'Neverwinter Nights 2'. And I agree with them since any RPG with any knid of story, any kind of name and any kind is destined to be great; and it becomes great.
But in KOTOR... They broke those rules. Let me show you which:

1. Of course, any normal RPG would throw away the story of the previous one like it didn't exist; And I thought that they were going to do that with TSL. But instead, they continued the story from the first one, making a plot for a triology, which is forbbiden to any RPG out there. But they still did it.

2. In the RPGs as well, you can't have characters from the previous game in the squel so they are off the hook. But Bioware and Obsidian inserted, not just one character from the prequel, but 6 characters: Carth, Bastila, Canderous, T3, HK and Vrook. That's breaking the rules if you ask me.

3. In squels, you cannot mention the main character or his/her name in the squel EVER. But in TSL, Revan was like a central character.

I have to stop now, this post is stepping into another topic.
EXCUSE ME. Then what is the whole point of a sequel?
Lucas is know for his trilogies ie Star Wars and Indiana Jones. By the way he wrote both, shelved the Jones story and did Star Wars, his big thing. HE gave the story to friend Steven Spielberg to direct, his big thing.
I was under the impression that a true RPG game is the type of combat system it is. What you have listed here is nothing but nonsense. If the having the blaster in one hand and the saber in the other is going to create problems, then just leave it with only one type of weapon.

"Never tell me the odds."

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Old 12-10-2005, 11:03 AM   #76
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^^^

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You guys are great. This is so funny now.

No Mono, NOW it's funny.


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Old 12-10-2005, 11:04 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
I could go and say dual wielding a saber and a blaster=**** in games, because dual wielding a saber and a blaster = ****.
I could go as well and say having female party members that fall at your feet at the first sight of you (e.x. Handmaiden, Visas) in a game=S**t, because having females fall at your feet at the first sight of you=S**t

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Same logic.
Nudity=logic (untrue)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Besides, it's only an option.
Nudity is't an option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
You don't have to choose it.
I didn't.
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Old 12-10-2005, 11:28 AM   #78
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LIAYD, int it clearly mentioned in the rules NOT to discuss porn?
and i say YES since a writer mentioned it in a book called Jedi Trial. in it, a rodian fighting on the Jedi side takes down a whole bunch of droids with a vibroblade in one hand and a blaster in the other. im not lying.
and suppose you are a Jedi who happens to have a blaster and a whole contingent of enemy troops are hounding you. would you want to jump in the middle and get hacked to pieces by melee blades or blasted to crisp by cannons? obviously no. if you have a lightsaber in your off hand, you can just deflect all incoming bolts and pick them off one by one with the blaster.


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Last edited by RC 1162; 12-10-2005 at 11:44 AM.
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Old 12-10-2005, 11:28 AM   #79
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Damn, this is better than Saturday Night Live!


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Old 12-10-2005, 02:04 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JediMaster12
Lucas is know for his trilogies ie Star Wars and Indiana Jones. By the way he wrote both, shelved the Jones story and did Star Wars, his big thing. HE gave the story to friend Steven Spielberg to direct, his big thing.
I was under the impression that a true RPG game is the type of combat system it is. What you have listed here is nothing but nonsense. If the having the blaster in one hand and the saber in the other is going to create problems, then just leave it with only one type of weapon.
The reason why I am not going to continue this is because this thread isn't about the story or about how RPGs work. I just wanted to show you that if KOTOR continued with Revan or Ry'ghol it won't be bad.

I would have said this earlier... But I thought that it would be spam, since this thread is not about it.
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