lfnetwork.com mark read register faq members calendar

Thread: Views on Jedi
Thread Tools Display Modes
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Old 01-05-2006, 05:10 PM   #41
Darth InSidious
A handful of dust.
 
Darth InSidious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The Eleven-Day Empire
Posts: 5,763
Current Game: KotOR II
Ha! So many people, indoctrinated by Kreia!

A true Jedi is humble, and sees the faults in himself. Even Vrook was able to examine his conscience. Atris ignored her conscience, which led her to fall.

Jedi are not emotionless machines. You people keep confusing them with Vulcans for reasons I can't fathom. I would have thought Vrook would be living proof that Jedi are just as emotional as the rest of us. While many are serene, serenity is an emotional state like any other.

To lie is to go against Jedi teaching - you only do this if it's important.

The Jedi don't see everything as black and white, but they may note that a 'grey' Jedi is sailing into the wind...

Anakin could not have been saved, no matter what. It was his destiny to fall.

The Sith lie, cheat and manipulate to get what they want. They have no compunctions about doing what is necessary to achieve their goals, and no need of love, friendship, humility, conscience or anything else like that.

These are just observations of the films, books, games etc, so don't take them as written law, of course.

I find it odd, that while so many people find Kreia annoying, a lot of you sound remarkably like her in this thread



Works-In-Progress
~
Mods Released
~
Quid existis in desertum videre?
Darth InSidious is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-05-2006, 05:33 PM   #42
Gray_Master
Rookie
 
Gray_Master's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Secret Planet where many outcasts live
Posts: 54
I need to get off for now so I didn't have time to read ALL the posts but I would like t ask if anyone else has noticed the differences betweem the jedi order of KOTOR and the jedi of the movies...please no posts on how it's 4000 years later thats not what i mean....I mean the Jedi of the movies hardly seem like pacafists...what I'm saying is the Jedi in KOTOR were all like "we can't fight the Mandys..we must wait and watch" Well to be honest, I can't see Yoda, Mace, Obi, or Qui-gon doing that....I mean dang Mace tried to kill the Palpatin (sp?) which I think was a good idea.
Gray_Master is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-06-2006, 09:53 AM   #43
Prime
Am I a truck or robot?
 
Prime's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Cybertron
Posts: 12,343
Current Game: Skyrim, Macross PS2
10 year veteran! LF Jester Veteran Modder Helpful! 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray_Master
I mean the Jedi of the movies hardly seem like pacafists...
You are correct, they certainly are not pacafists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray_Master
what I'm saying is the Jedi in KOTOR were all like "we can't fight the Mandys..we must wait and watch" Well to be honest, I can't see Yoda, Mace, Obi, or Qui-gon doing that....I mean dang Mace tried to kill the Palpatin (sp?) which I think was a good idea.
The KOTOR Council did not advise against going to war against the Mandalorians because they were pacafists, it was because they were not convinced that jumping into a war at that time was the best course of action to ultimately defeat them. It was more a disagreement on strategy as opposed to philosophy. The KOTOR Jedi were probably even less like pacafists than the later Jedi, since there were many more conflicts at that point than there were in the years before the Clone Wars.

Prime is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-06-2006, 09:58 AM   #44
Darth Windu
TSLRP Beta Tester
 
Darth Windu's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Coruscant
Posts: 1,973
Thats right. Remember that the council apparently saw something that was pushing the Mandalorian Wars, and wanted to find out what it was first. This is similar to the situation in AotC/RotS, except there the Jedi jump in while still trying to investigate. In the end it seems neither approach is better than the other, just look at the results.

Still, looking at the actions of Revan and Anakin, it emphasises the point that a single person can change the galaaxy and in the end, it comes down to choices on the individual scale.

Just my two cents.


Dark Lord of the Purists

Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges
Darth Windu is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-06-2006, 03:53 PM   #45
PoiuyWired
Unregistered User
 
PoiuyWired's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,503
Well, Each recarnation of the Jedi Order is different, even the same one would change over the years.

Think, the Jedi Order of Exar Kun era, kotor era, republic/clone wars era, luke's era... all have modified views on things, guidelines, jedi doctrines, and even views on the force...
PoiuyWired is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-06-2006, 03:57 PM   #46
Darth InSidious
A handful of dust.
 
Darth InSidious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The Eleven-Day Empire
Posts: 5,763
Current Game: KotOR II
Luke's order is not the same. He did not have all the teachings, philosophies, manuscripts, discoveries, all the things which would have been in the Jedi Archive on Coruscant, and preserved when the Jedi disappeared. Palpatine struck so suddenly that there probably wasn't a hidden backup (The Jedi are somewhat naive at times...)



Works-In-Progress
~
Mods Released
~
Quid existis in desertum videre?
Darth InSidious is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-06-2006, 04:43 PM   #47
VincentFreeman
Rookie
 
VincentFreeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 11
The Jedi are the protectors of the galaxy. They try and help others who need that help. As whole, the jedi order is a bit arrogant and fairly narrow minded, treating their order more like a religion.
Outside of the main movies there has been an expansion upon the simple good/evil beliefs. We see that with Revan and with the exile. They are not Jedi from the order any longer but neither are they sith. They have transcended to something else much more capable.
VincentFreeman is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-06-2006, 06:46 PM   #48
Master omega
Rookie
 
Master omega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Scotland
Posts: 38
Smile Jedi are garduans and teachers

The thing about the jedi is that they are teachers of the way in the force and also garduns of peace. Wich is all down to one thing becuase as were are told that the force is bined to all life wich in a jedi oppion should be protected at all cost. But the prob with that is What we have read and seen before that these two things dowt always go along with each other. Thats why in regards to the jedi diff between Kotor and the films. The jedi in Kotor serve the force first republic second, Movies Republic first Force second.

In my oppion
Master omega is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-06-2006, 06:54 PM   #49
grunty
Rookie
 
grunty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor
They bug me. They just piss me off. I don't know why.
It might be because they're just to calm, to peaceful. They don't laugh, or cry, or even smile enough.
True

Although I hate to be DS, most LS options aren't witty or funny but boring language that you've heard from all the "wise" Jedi. I wish more options would be available to you during conversations which not only showed light/dark orientation, but also personality.

I loved the funny come-ons you could say to Bastily in K1. Great stuff.
grunty is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-07-2006, 01:13 PM   #50
Sith_Reven
Rookie
 
Sith_Reven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: At an all time low in Mos Eisley Cantina
Posts: 78
I guess I wasn't clear. By pacifists I meant in the games and only their methods. For example the whole jedi not going to war and sitting back and watching the fighting from afar.


Savior, conquerer, Hero, Villian... You are all things Revan, and yet you are nothing. In the end you belong to neither the darkness nor the light. You will forever stand alone.
-Malak
Sith_Reven is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-07-2006, 04:12 PM   #51
Tysyacha
One of Thousands
 
Tysyacha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Kirkwall/The Free Marches
Posts: 3,181
Current Game: Dragon Age II
Forum Veteran Roleplayer Contest winner - Fan Fiction 
In my opinion, the Jedi are gifted people who want to serve and protect
others. However, they are not perfect, and they're not above doing things
like lying if it's for the common good. They never told Darth Revan, for instance,
that he was Revan, and they never told Luke that Vader was his father. This
lying was not done for manipulative reasons, though, but out of fear.

The Jedi feared that Revan would turn back to the Dark Side if he knew the truth.
The Jedi feared what the Exile could do to the Force, and so they lied to the Exile.
The Jedi were afraid Luke might seek bloody revenge against Vader, which
would not be the Jedi way, and thus they hid the truth from Luke Skywalker.

They can also become arrogant, and I hate their views on love and passion.
I believe love is a good thing, although it can lead to jealousy and possessiveness.
The Jedi Order should have allowed Anakin and Padme to be married, and they
should have made him a Master before they put him on the Council. That way,
he MIGHT not have fallen to the Dark Side of the Force, but notice the MIGHT.

However, the Jedi believe that everyone deserves a second chance, like
Revan and Darth Vader. I'm all for redemption, so I'll stick with the Jedi.
Tysyacha is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-09-2006, 05:47 PM   #52
JediMaster12
Dum Spiramus Tuebimur
 
JediMaster12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Buried in books...literally
Posts: 5,914
Current Game: Assassin's Creed
LFN Staff Member Veteran Fan Fic Author Contest winner - Fan Fiction Forum Veteran 
If what you say is true Tysyacha about the Jedi and their fear, wouldn't they be already on the path to the darkside? In the words of Master Yoda, "Fear is the path to the darkside. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering." Yes we all have fear but then what exactly is it about fear that would lead someone to fall so far?
I do say this, the Jedi do believe in redemption at least in the games but lookin at Return of the Jedi when Luke tells Obi-Wan that ther was still good in Darth Vader, he seemed unwilling to believe that.
I guess it boils down to the individual and their inner strengths.

JediMaster12 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-09-2006, 05:56 PM   #53
Darth InSidious
A handful of dust.
 
Darth InSidious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The Eleven-Day Empire
Posts: 5,763
Current Game: KotOR II
Revan and the Exile's Jediness depends on what path you take. If you are LS, then they are Jedi. If you are DS, they are Dark Jedi, IMO.



Works-In-Progress
~
Mods Released
~
Quid existis in desertum videre?
Darth InSidious is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-10-2006, 03:03 AM   #54
JediMaster12
Dum Spiramus Tuebimur
 
JediMaster12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Buried in books...literally
Posts: 5,914
Current Game: Assassin's Creed
LFN Staff Member Veteran Fan Fic Author Contest winner - Fan Fiction Forum Veteran 
Ah if they are Jedi they will forgive and if they are not, they will not care.

JediMaster12 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-10-2006, 06:21 PM   #55
Master omega
Rookie
 
Master omega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Scotland
Posts: 38
Arrow One thing i dont agree with

The jedi are honerable powerfull wise beings i personaly would not say if i had the force what personal stand point on the Darkside/Lightside thing would be becuase even though i agree with the protecting off all life and teaching the ways off the force. I dont agree with there stand piont on Love and redempation. For exsample Do you really think everone is justified in being redemed no mater what they did do you really think someone like Palpatine or one off the sith lords off old would have been redemed by the jedi If they turned from the darkside. I sertely dont
Master omega is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-10-2006, 06:27 PM   #56
Darth InSidious
A handful of dust.
 
Darth InSidious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The Eleven-Day Empire
Posts: 5,763
Current Game: KotOR II
Quote:
Originally Posted by JediMaster12
Ah if they are Jedi they will forgive and if they are not, they will not care.
Got it in one!



Works-In-Progress
~
Mods Released
~
Quid existis in desertum videre?
Darth InSidious is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-11-2006, 12:22 PM   #57
Cygnus Q'ol
Savior of Albion
 
Cygnus Q'ol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Bowerstone Market
Posts: 1,263
Current Game: liberty city stories
Just because you are a force user doesn't make you a Jedi.

There is much training to become able to control yourself and the force enough to be trusted to go out into the gaalaxy and help others.

Which is what the order of Jedi do.

Some of their ideals however, are lost on me. Like the whole love thing.
How are we going to make little younglings if we aren't allowed to love?

Where do young hopefuls come from if not from jedi?
Why do the jedi pluck these youngsters from their families, for the greater good of the universe?
Some would say that's evil.


.

The Starbuck's in Bowerstone has Percolated Java Macchiatos.
Cygnus Q'ol is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-11-2006, 12:44 PM   #58
JediMaster12
Dum Spiramus Tuebimur
 
JediMaster12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Buried in books...literally
Posts: 5,914
Current Game: Assassin's Creed
LFN Staff Member Veteran Fan Fic Author Contest winner - Fan Fiction Forum Veteran 
Yes but relationships with family are frought with emtion, such extremes are to be avoided. Still controlling your passions while being in love, that is what they should teach you. Love itself will save you, not condemn you.
If love were forbidden, how could Obi-wan tell Anakin that he loved him and called him his brother?

JediMaster12 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-11-2006, 01:26 PM   #59
Cygnus Q'ol
Savior of Albion
 
Cygnus Q'ol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Bowerstone Market
Posts: 1,263
Current Game: liberty city stories
Quote:
Originally Posted by JediMaster12
Yes but relationships with family are frought with emtion, such extremes are to be avoided. Still controlling your passions while being in love, that is what they should teach you. Love itself will save you, not condemn you.
If love were forbidden, how could Obi-wan tell Anakin that he loved him and called him his brother?
Sounds like a page out of Jolee's book.

I still wonder where the younglings come from.


.

The Starbuck's in Bowerstone has Percolated Java Macchiatos.
Cygnus Q'ol is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-12-2006, 02:09 AM   #60
JediMaster12
Dum Spiramus Tuebimur
 
JediMaster12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Buried in books...literally
Posts: 5,914
Current Game: Assassin's Creed
LFN Staff Member Veteran Fan Fic Author Contest winner - Fan Fiction Forum Veteran 
"The Force is in all of us but for some it is barely but a measurable whisper" Bastilla

In some ways even you are more capable than a Jedi. You could survive where they could not simply because you don't hear the Force as they do. Kreia to Atton

JediMaster12 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-12-2006, 08:06 AM   #61
JediMasterDeath
Banned
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 15
Equilibrium

Excellent Thread! UBER KUDOS TO GRAY ON THIS
This is the meat and potatos of the Star Wars Universe right here.

Now to answer this I must first answer what are the characteristics of a PERFECT JEDI? I don't care about what Mace has done, or Yoda, or Anakin, or Obi. WHAT DOES THE JEDI CODE SAY THE PERFECT FULL-ON JEDI SHOULD, IN THIS CASE, FEEL?

There is no emotion; there is peace.
There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no passion; there is serenity.
There is no death; there is the Force.

Remeber, Obi-Wan is NOT "The Jedi" Anakin is NOT "The Jedi" they are single Jedi, a piece of a much greater whole, if you will. Thus you can't judge a whole by a single.

Now lets break down the Jedi Code
1. - There is no emotion; there is peace.
A. Emotion: Any strong "feelings." (forgiveness, love, and even pride. If they can't experiance pride, this would mean that arrogance should also then be unexperianed by a TRUE JEDI)
B. Peace: The absence of mental stress or anxiety.

2. - There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
A. This means they must be aware, never be unable to obtain knowledge
B. Knowledge: Experience with perception, learning, and reasoning.

3. - A. There is no passion; B. there is serenity.
A. They can't be intensely emotional.
B. Serenity: Free from stress, anxiety, or emotion.

4. - A. There is no death; B. there is the Force. (Heres a tricky one )
A. Death: End of life, departure from life.
B. Force: Physical energy or intensity, a powerful effect or influence.

5 - Love: A strong positive emotion of regard and affection. (Since this was mentioned in the last couple posts, I might aswell comment on it) The Jedi codes first line is "There is no emotion." Thus love is forrbiden. In the Sith Code it states "Peace is a lie, There is only passion, Through passion I gain strength." Some people say that this means that love is allowed by the Sith, and not by the Jedi. Wrong. Passion: A state of being intensely emotional, you can be passionate about manny things, not just love. To love someone or somthing shows a "weakness." Padme was Anakins weakness, and Palpatine used this to his advantage many times. At the end he lied to Darth Vadar, telling him he had killed Padme. Thus eliminating Vadars weakness. Sith do not tolerate weakness, and there for it must be eliminated.

Therefore the perfect Jedi would have no strong feelings, be absent of any stress of anxiety, would be experienced with perception, learning, and reasoning, and (This is only my opinon I supose) would not believe in death, but ever-lasting intense engery that has a powerful effect and influence over life. In my opinon these traits most imbody the Jedi Qui-Gon Jin.

Most people would say that Qui-Gon's decesion to make Obi promise to train Anakin was the down fall of the Jedi. Most also believe that Anakin was a false "chosen one"
However during the battle in the Second Deathstar, after Luke Skywalker had beaten Darth Vadar (Anakin Skywalker), Emperor Palpatine (Darth Sidious) struk down Luke. In the end as Palpatine was slowly killing Luke, Vadar became no more and it was Anakins love for his child that gave him the power to over-come the darkness in his heart and finally defeat Palpatine. Thus I believe it was truly Anakin Skywalker whom brought balance to the force, and defeated the last of the Sith. So I think Qui-Gon actually did know what he was doing. ^.^
(Once again this is only my opinon) Is this not in a way how Revan started as a Jedi, went to Sith, and then once again became a Jedi in defeating a Greater Evil? (For the LS atleast )

The Jedi are the ones whom attempt to bring balance to the force. These codes and rules they follow are to aid them in bringing Balance to the force, and to remind them of their true goal. Equilibrium. All survive as a whole to live in peace.

The Sith care not for balance, or being equal. When your a Sith your the strongest or your weak, your never equal. "The strong survive, and the weak die."

To conclude, as long as even 1 person will only believe that "The strong survive, and the weak die" equilibrium will be unatainable. When everyone can finally accept equilibrium shall it be in reach.
> . < Once again thats just my thoughts > . <

Last edited by JediMasterDeath; 01-12-2006 at 08:47 AM.
JediMasterDeath is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-12-2006, 11:07 AM   #62
Cygnus Q'ol
Savior of Albion
 
Cygnus Q'ol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Bowerstone Market
Posts: 1,263
Current Game: liberty city stories
Good point, I never thought of it in quite that way. Love did, afterall triumph.

However, two things:
1) There are no guidelines in the jedi code of love and procreation. Anakin did this in secret and against the jedi teachings.

2) Did Qui-gon actually know what he was doing? Last he saw Anakin he was a boy, hardly touched by the darkside. He dies. Many years passed, then Anakin's fall. Then many more years pass as Anakin reigns as sith lord. Finally, he turns his back to Sidious to save his long lost son. Killing the master and himself, but not before redemption.

I seriously doubt Qui-gon saw all of this while stealing a dab of blood from a boy.


.

The Starbuck's in Bowerstone has Percolated Java Macchiatos.
Cygnus Q'ol is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-12-2006, 11:29 AM   #63
JediMasterDeath
Banned
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 15
I would have too If at the end of Revenge of The Sith Yoda hadn't said that Qui-gon had become a force ghost For all we know he was watching Anakin throught ep 2-6 ^.^ What if Qui-Gon hadn't told Obi to train Ani? Would Duke, Grievous, and Sidious have destroyed the Rebellion still? Thoese are the questions that get you thinking ^.^ Qui-Gon believed the boy would forfill the phropecy, and I believe he did
lol, I wasn't trying to add love as a Jedi code >>> 5 - Love: A strong positive emotion of regard and affection. >>>>>>>(Since this was mentioned in the last couple posts, I might aswell comment on it)<<<<<<<< Thats the only reason I mentioned it there > . < I for one can't really know If Qui-Gon would or wouldn't have truly know(Just my opninon ). But I do know he was determined to have Anakin trained as a Jedi, even if anakin was to old, even if it men't dropping Obi as an apprentice, even after the council forbid it, even at the very moment he was dying. He had to have known that somthing about that boy that everyone else didn't
JediMasterDeath is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-12-2006, 12:18 PM   #64
Servantoflight
Lurker
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: I am where there are any people in need.
Posts: 2
Well, ui-gon might have foreseen it. As in KotOR 2 Kreia said something about the force allowing you to 'see' into the future. (My memory might be a bight rusty) However, here is my view of the Jedi:

The Jedi are much like the church, the set up is perfect, the church is (supposedly) set up by people (long ago) who God talked to directly. Therefore, the church is perfect, the positions are perfect, and just because someone fills that perfect position does not make them perfect. The person can choose to do what they are suppose to do, or to abuse their positions.

1. The Jedi have a set of guidelines, like we have the bible (or whatever religion you practice) which we can choose to obey or not obey.

2. The amount of power each Jedi position has and the positions in the church are perfect. The people that fill those positions are not perfect and never will be, but some might start to believe that they are, and become blind to there mistakes and cannot fix them.

3. In the KOTOR games there was the 'fall of the Jedi', which I believe is the Jedi consul could not admit there mistake of (mutiple choice here)
-not explaining the plan to the Jedi who felt the need to save the innocent being slaughtered by the Mandalorians
-Could not come up with a plan in time and just covered their butts by saying they had a plan
-Thought the right thing to do was stay out of the fight, then that they should have gone to war to stop it, where too arrogent to see their mistakes and blamed it on those who went to war trying to save countless innocents. Therefore, starting (or not stopping) the Jedi Civil War.

Now my whole veiw of Jedi and their ban on love is this: If you love someone (spouse, or offspring) then when they are killed you feel anger and are more susseptable to the DS and revenge. The Jedi are there to help society, and if they allow themselves to love, then they will be bias, wanting to give more to there loved ones rather than a complete stranger. As such, love cannot exist without hate, and hate cannot exist without love. If you let one in, you let both in, and the Jedi (I think) would rather avoid the whole thing entirely, no love, no hate, no strong emotions. As an enemy could use those emotions against you, especially if you are allowed to love.
Servantoflight is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-12-2006, 05:26 PM   #65
JediMaster12
Dum Spiramus Tuebimur
 
JediMaster12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Buried in books...literally
Posts: 5,914
Current Game: Assassin's Creed
LFN Staff Member Veteran Fan Fic Author Contest winner - Fan Fiction Forum Veteran 
Yes there are guidelines for they Jedi but they are not perfect. Jolee says it in KOTOR. Love and passion are not the same thing, check out the OED meaning of love and passion.

Leaves the discussion table

By the way JediMasterDeath, I started this thread.

JediMaster12 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-12-2006, 06:55 PM   #66
Master omega
Rookie
 
Master omega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Scotland
Posts: 38
My oppion on this is we all have diffrent views on this i agree the perfect jedi would follow the jedi code to the letter. And that Anakin was in fact the chosen one in the end due to his love for his Son. So his love Was His weekness and then his strength. But i belive That The jedi order in the expanded universe has it right the most because They dont ban love relashoips Luke and his fellow masters are told to be always mindfull off their fellings and to take strenght from them. The old jedi order should have taken the same stand point in my oppion. And to be honest the old jedi did kind off almost love each other because that attachemnt for master and apprentince was vergin on this. (Agin in my oppion) They semed to gain strengh From this wich is an emotion.

P.s Watch Ep2 and listten carefully You can hear Qui-Gon Shouting anakin !!! When he lose it with the Sand people.
Master omega is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-12-2006, 07:03 PM   #67
Jae Onasi
Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem
 
Jae Onasi's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 10,912
Current Game: Guild Wars 2, VtMB, TOR
Alderaan News Holopics contributor Helpful! LucasCast staff Veteran Fan Fic Author 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi3112
(snipped) The Jedi are an unholy order. They are the evil that walks among us....We Sith on the other hand are the most noble of all people. We remove the weak links from a society so that only the best survive. With only the strong genetics we can start to improve ourselves, so one day everybody will be perfect.
Going philosophical here, and not trying to attack anyone personally, it just happens that jedi3112 did a nice job of summing up Sith views (which are not mine).

Well, let's take the Sith philosophy to its logical conclusion. If Sith are philosophically and genetically superior, then they should continue to purify their gene pool and become a Super-race by killing off anyone inferior. What's inferior? Anything that makes the race or empire function improperly is inferior. Anything or anyone that does not contribute to the ultimate Sith philosophy is inferior. Anyone who doesn't agree with the ultimate Sith philosophy is inferior (because if they truly believed, then they would agree). Anyone who is not liked/useful to his superior is inferior. Who determines what is superior? The guy at the top of the food chain--the Sith Lord. What does this lead to? A Sith Lord determining who and what is 'superior' (regardless of whether he's actually correct or not). Destruction of anything and anyone who does not contribute to the Sith Lord's wishes. Stifling any creativity (including that which could improve the empire or people in unique ways) if it does not conform to the Sith Lord's views or wishes. Conforming blindly to the Sith Lord's wishes, even if you know he's incorrect, for fear of being eliminated if you question his orders. Subjugation of entire races and planets. Destruction of anything the Sith Lord doesn't like or anyone who attempts to stop him. Desire to expand the empire by any means possible in order to gain more power over enemies, including enemies in his own ranks. Development of a police state to control those he has subjugated. Genocide, if the Sith Lord decides that it's in his personal (or his empire's) best interest.

The Jedi are meant to be the antithesis of this philosophy.

Do they always succeed? No, because they are imperfect beings just like everyone else (or, at least they're as imperfect as George Lucas writes into the script ). Both Jedi and Sith are blessed with incredible powers due to the Force. However, the Jedi choose to wield this power for the good of the galaxy, not for personal gain. They represent all that is good and right in the universe. Their goal is to root out and destroy evil, protect those who can't protect themselves, dispense proper justice, and foster a safe environment in which people can grow and develop. Because they are constantly required to mediate and/or fight in volatile or dangerous situations, they require a tremendous amount of training in order to wield their gifts for the good of the universe. They have to be skilled in diplomacy, politics, psychology of various races, history, strategy, tactics, and fighting if the need comes. They have to be intelligent enough to see all the various options and wise enough to discern which one is the correct option in any given situation. They have to handle their gifts with a great deal of responsibility, honesty, humility (arguably something missing in some of the masters in the movies), honor, and grace. Even though they control great power, they have to recognize that they are simply servants of the Force and those around them. The Jedi Order was created by imperfect beings, so it's not going to be perfect itself, although they are always well-intentioned. The Jedi is a group of beings who are trying to do their best to analyze and interpret any given situation and respond wisely in a way that is going to ultimately provide the most beneficial effects on the universe. The Jedi Order is meant to provide a framework in which a Force-sensitive person/being can develop his unique powers from apprentice through master in such a way that the Jedi hones his skills to the greatest degree possible while minimizing the corrupting influences of the dark side. While it is not always perfect, the Jedi Order's goal is to protect its own as much as the rest of the universe from the dark side. So, the ultimate Jedi is one who wields the Force with a great deal of strength, who is always seeking to make himself a better person, who attempts to make the lives of those around him more positive, and who does so in an honest and humble manner, knowing he is a servant of the Light.

Ok, enough philosophy for now!


From MST3K's spoof of "Hercules Unchained"--heard as Roman medic soldiers carry off an unconscious Greek Hercules on a 1950's Army green canvas stretcher: "Hi, we're IX-I-I. Did somebody dial IX-I-I?"

Read The Adventures of Jolee Bindo and see the amazing Peep Surgery
Story WIP: The Dragonfighters
My blog: Confessions of a Geeky Mom--Latest post: Security Alerts!
Love Star Trek AND gaming? Check out Lotus Fleet.

Jae Onasi is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-13-2006, 04:05 AM   #68
Darth InSidious
A handful of dust.
 
Darth InSidious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The Eleven-Day Empire
Posts: 5,763
Current Game: KotOR II
Good points. If people think the Jedi are slow to react, what about the Baran Do?



Works-In-Progress
~
Mods Released
~
Quid existis in desertum videre?
Darth InSidious is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-13-2006, 02:13 PM   #69
JediMaster12
Dum Spiramus Tuebimur
 
JediMaster12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Buried in books...literally
Posts: 5,914
Current Game: Assassin's Creed
LFN Staff Member Veteran Fan Fic Author Contest winner - Fan Fiction Forum Veteran 
The Jedi look at the whole picture, the whole thing about the greater good. You Sith like to look at the here and now and not the future. That's why you guys are always dying; power but no longetivity.

JediMaster12 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-13-2006, 10:15 PM   #70
Revan Skywalker
Rookie
 
Revan Skywalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a place where few know, training and Mastering the Force and my own unusal ability to fly at will.
Posts: 126
The Jedi are flawed. The Sith are flawed. They both have weaknesses and strenghts. But in the end, both fail at different times. The Sith, the early Wars. The Jedi, Order Sixty-Six. You must not fear the dark side, use it, but keep your emotions in check. You must have a perfect balance between the two to be at peace, and to never have your Empire, or Order, get destroyed. The only beings who had this kind of serenity were.... Revan ( lightside ), Jolee Bindo, Klye Katarn, Luke Skywalker, Anakin Solo, Anakin Skywalker kind of had it, and the greatest of them all, Jacen Solo. He knew what the Force truly was, and recognized the advantages in wielding the Light and Dark Side of the Force. He was the perfect Force user.


I'm a marshmallow away from a bowo of lucky charms.
Revan Skywalker is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-14-2006, 04:54 AM   #71
Darth InSidious
A handful of dust.
 
Darth InSidious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The Eleven-Day Empire
Posts: 5,763
Current Game: KotOR II
What about Yoda? Vandar Tokare? Obi-Wan? They all seemed pretty serene.



Works-In-Progress
~
Mods Released
~
Quid existis in desertum videre?
Darth InSidious is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-14-2006, 10:06 AM   #72
Revan Skywalker
Rookie
 
Revan Skywalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a place where few know, training and Mastering the Force and my own unusal ability to fly at will.
Posts: 126
Obi-Wan and Yoda were pretty serene, yes, but were they wise, no. They could not sense the Sith threat until too late, much like the Jedi Civil War. As the prophecy of the one said, A chosen one will be born, and will tip the scales to balance, but only one will truly mourn. I got this from my brother, Steve. He works with Lucasfilm. He's a cameraman. Back to my point. The Jedi felt too safe. And they were all but conquered. This why Revan attacked the Republic. After the Mandalorian Wars, the Republic felt too safe. So Revan gave them a new threat. This kept them sharp and alert.


I'm a marshmallow away from a bowo of lucky charms.
Revan Skywalker is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-14-2006, 01:25 PM   #73
Master omega
Rookie
 
Master omega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Scotland
Posts: 38
Jacen Solo

I see Why you would say that jacen Solo is the perfect jedi because he can see The advantage to use both side of the force. According to what weve read thats the only way the jedi were able to defeat the Vong. But In the Dark Nest books we read that Luke is trying to change this appion on the force To be more mindfull of the darkside. Because it caused the Fall off one off The jedi knights Alema Rar. And he is undoubtfully the gratested Jedi in the Expandend Universe (my Opppion). They have become to dependint on that attudde and become less mindfull off the darkside sway on them. Which is the gratest risk in this oppion.
Master omega is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-14-2006, 03:02 PM   #74
Revan Skywalker
Rookie
 
Revan Skywalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a place where few know, training and Mastering the Force and my own unusal ability to fly at will.
Posts: 126
Agreed.


I'm a marshmallow away from a bowo of lucky charms.
Revan Skywalker is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-14-2006, 09:04 PM   #75
Darth n00b
Rookie
 
Darth n00b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Norway
Posts: 44
While I were reading trough the thread I noticed a patern.The hypocrisy(?), the lies and the arogance comes from one group of Jedies, the masters, the powerfull and the respected.
Obi Wan, Yoda, Vrook, Bastilla...

While tho ones that can see the colours is the ones that have traveled into the twilight zone of the force, such as Jolee and Kyle.

And for keeping my self on topic:
I see the Jedies as galactic police, and kinda like a japanese fighting thingie.
The ninja's belived that they had to leave their emotions to be good ninjas, the name "ninja" comes from nin (The own heart pirced) and ja (human).
(Ninja's wearn't wariors, but more spies wich only killed when needed, or when the mission were assationation)

But enough of my half asleep ramblings...
Darth n00b is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-15-2006, 11:08 AM   #76
BattleDog
Terrible in War
 
BattleDog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,923
Roleplayer 
Firstly, I could shoot the guy, probably at WEG, who came up with the idea that the Force has two sides. The movies clearly show that there is only the Force, it even says it in the Code.

There is no death, there is the Force.

It doesn't say the light side of the Force

A true Jedi should be a servant of the Force, he does not seek to influence it or command it. He uses it in the way which it dictates. The Jedi are dedicated to bringing balance to the Force. Lucas has stated that Anakin brought balance to the Force not by reducing the number of Jedi but by finally destroying the Sith.

The Jedi serve the "light" because the darkness is easy and therefore apt to grow. The Jedi fight the dark side because if they don't it will win and the balance will be destroyed The dark side feeds off itself and grows stronger, the galaxey needs the Jedi to fight it.

So what is the dark side? Well the Jedi believe it is a corruption of the true Force and I am inclined to agree. The Force is nature and the dark side does not exist in nature, in fact the dark side is a manifestation of the Force twisted within an individual.

So if the Jedi are the guardians of the will of the Force why were they destroyed? They became arrogant, a trait common in Sith, a Jedi is suppossed to be in control of their emotions, they have them but they do not allow them to rule their thoughts or actions. Pride and arrogance are of the dark side, these began to seep into the Jedi philosophy and their power began to diminish.

How did the Jedi become arrogant, like anything of the dark side it was very easy. If a Jedi feels the Force and lets it guide him then obviously his every action is right and the will of the Force. Once a Jedi begins to think this way he rejects the possibility he could be wrong. Now he has pride and is arrogant.

What bothers me about TSL is that the Jedi there seem to have the same level of arrogance as in the prequels, even though en masse they didn't have it forty years ealier and are still rebuilding after the last Sith War. Interestingly enough the same level of arrogance doesn't seem to be present in KOTOR, even in Vrook.


Fly Fast,
Shoot Straight,
Live Long!
BattleDog is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-15-2006, 11:39 AM   #77
Vaelastraz
Veteran
 
Vaelastraz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: City 17. It's safer.
Posts: 851
Well at least starwars.com claims there are 2 sides of the force: http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/yoda/

[...]The two entered into a spectacular duel -- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides.[...]
Vaelastraz is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-15-2006, 03:21 PM   #78
Master omega
Rookie
 
Master omega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Scotland
Posts: 38
Post

We all no there is two sides two the force lets be honest my appion off the force is that is is basicly the power of life. Eg the two sides are life and death nether are inhertly evil they just are a part off it. and the jedi and sith teach and use both depending on there own indvidual values and oppions. ill explain what i mean The force rember has bein explained to use as part off life without the force there can be no life and as yoda told Anakin that if one die's not to fear or morn this because that person has become one with the force.So hince Two sides off the force.
Master omega is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-15-2006, 07:59 PM   #79
Steve-O Kreesh
Rookie
 
Steve-O Kreesh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Returning home after a long se
Posts: 154
Current Game: G.H. - Metallica
I myself agree with Lucas's own view of the Jedi. The Jedi the galaxy's samurai, galactic sheriffs that help the weak and protect the innocent.
Now the Jedi follow the will of the force yet the Sith bend the force to their will. The rules of the Jedi are clear that attachments are forbidden, but secret relationships do happen within the Order. The exile admits to as much in certain conversation threads with the handmaiden. Not all Jedi that have lovers go darkside, look at Revan and Bastilla. In Anakin's case, his hunger to control life is what helped cause his fall. His greed to learn how to save Padme is what Sidious took advantage of.
I've read the New Jedi Order books too, and from them I think Force does not have a darkside. It's the darkside in all Jedi that cause them to fall. It's the individual that decides to do right or wrong and what they do after is what causes them to turn.
It's the individual personality of a Jedi that determines whether or not they are at risk of falling. Anakin showed those traits and that is what the council feared. Other Jedi have showed similar personalitys. Alema Rar, Kyp Durron, Mara Jade Skywalker, Zekk, and even Jaina Solo are some of those Jedi. All have turned darkside on some level at one point or another. Some were "saved" from the darkside, yet one is lost due to being corrupted by a more powerful influence.

Now this is just my personal view, but like in real life Jedi have to take responsibilty for their actions. Most do and seek the forgiveness of their peers. Some do not and choose not to. Those are the Jedi most at risk of turning "darkside".


Steve-O Kreesh is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-16-2006, 01:44 AM   #80
RedHawke
Shadow Lord Of The Sith™
 
RedHawke's Avatar
 
Status: Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Stormreach CA.
Posts: 9,184
Current Game: DDO, Stormreach
Quote:
Originally Posted by BattleDog
Firstly, I could shoot the guy, probably at WEG, who came up with the idea that the Force has two sides. The movies clearly show that there is only the Force, it even says it in the Code.
PnP RPG's are about good and evil, or even order and chaos, at their cores, when making an RPG system for something like Star Wars sometimes the source material has to be deviated from to make a playable game system.

Fact is there is a Dark side the movies tell us as much, especially the OT, so there must be a Light side. This is where the games come from, and it actually makes better sense than Lucas' "cover-up his plot mistake" ramblings on the subject.


"Beware the form-fitting black armor-clad Drow hottie with twin Mineral II Greensteel Khopeshes!"
"Liella d'Orien says, '"You're the fool, Devil. -- Witness the power of this fully ARMED and OPERATIONAL Titan!"'"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
RedHawke is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Go Back   LucasForums > Network > Knights of the Old Republic > Game Discussion > The Unknown Regions > Views on Jedi

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:56 AM.

LFNetwork, LLC ©2002-2011 - All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.