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Old 01-30-2006, 06:38 PM   #121
Aristotélēsticus
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thanks but i'm not thinking of joining anyone now...maybe later...i might be away but i am near...
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Old 01-30-2006, 08:12 PM   #122
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JediMaster12, I am ready for the quest. Are you?


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Old 01-31-2006, 12:57 AM   #123
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Just an FYI people, we have a Roleplaying Forum, that would be better suited for this Master and Apprentice type of roleplay.


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Old 01-31-2006, 01:56 PM   #124
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Sorry about that. To get back on track, the Jedi are people who can wield the Force, so do the Sith. It all comes to how you use your power. Any takers?

@Revan Skywalker: send me a Private Message about training.

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Old 02-01-2006, 07:35 AM   #125
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There is truth to all. In all things, there is perception. You must make sure that, in your effort to protect all that is good and wholesome, you don't go too far into the otherside of the ditch. Is it wrong to love someone and be with them, no, it's not. But to allow them to control your actions, that's wrong. Some find strength in relationships, some, weakness.

In Anakin's case, he thought that the Galaxy owed him one. Maybe he started out as a slave, but that didn't mean that the Galaxy belonged to him. I have a really hard time with people who think it's their "divine" right to own and control everything. Everyone is responsible for their destiny, their choices are what makes them light or dark...or grey I walk in the light, but I'm not blinded by it. You must see things from everyone's point of view to find out where the truth lies.

However, I do believe that some things are universal. Everyone has a right to live, a right to make a good, honest living. However, I'm not blinded in thinking that this is the case. As it's been said in many times before, "Peaceful people can sleep well at night, knowing that rough men (and women ) are willing to do violence on their behalf."

The Jedi got too narrow minded. The sith, feel only for themselves. I agree with the Jedi more than the Sith and I'll stand against the darkness till I become One.
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Old 02-01-2006, 11:48 AM   #126
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So you believe in certain inalienable rights and the whole concept of divine right is nonsense. To that I agree. I believe the Jedi were blinded by their role in the Republic but also by their arrogance which allowed the Sith to take over and create the Empire. We all have our feelings of patriotism and standing for what we think is right and the Jedi had their good intentions but at times they were completely wrong in spite of it. I will go far to say that at times it's the Grey Jedi that seem to get the picture, the whole picture, better than the Jedi Council. Maybe it's just because I can follow through with Jolee Bindo.


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Old 02-01-2006, 06:43 PM   #127
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I think that this is our believe Potentium
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Old 02-02-2006, 12:51 PM   #128
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So Potentium is like being a Grey Jedi? That was my understanding.

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Old 02-02-2006, 12:55 PM   #129
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yes it is
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Old 02-03-2006, 09:46 PM   #130
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Just like Anakin said it, in my point of view the jedi are evil



"Once the land is barren by the dark and evil king
The son of the good master shall avenge the dead and sing
'The dark has gone, the light is here'
and slice in half the lord of fear.
The one who will save us will stray from the light
but will eventually come to help the fight
against the one, who haunts the night."
- General Blise of the Dark Dweller Army
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Old 02-03-2006, 10:42 PM   #131
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Quote:
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Just like Anakin said it, in my point of view the jedi are evil
Then you are truly lost.
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Old 02-03-2006, 11:55 PM   #132
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Yes, but then what is truth, nothing more than a point of view. Truth is an illusion to create stability and security. Truth is a lie. Is he truly lost? To be lost only means that something is to be found.

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Old 04-24-2006, 07:21 PM   #133
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the jedi code is the biggest peice of crap i've ever heard. no showing emotions, because showing emotions is a weakness and trying to gaurd against you hearst desire such as romantic love. They are like robots with lightsabers....not very happy people i'm guessing....being taken away from their families and discouraged to see them ever again. I would hate to be a jedi. on the other hand i would like to weild the force though. if i were in the fantasy universe of star wars i would beleive in pontenium or whatever he said being neutral is a good thing in my POV because judging a situation is much easier from a neutral stand point, easier to choose what is more productive better for the long run.... i would rather help a hobo get a job then giving him some money. and sometimes doing the politically "wrong" thing actually helps you more than the politically "right" way
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Old 04-30-2006, 08:17 PM   #134
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To me, the Jedi are mostly people who try to handle their power in a responsible way while seeking to help those around them. However, I feel that the version of their Code seen in the KOTOR games is unhealthy, and could probably cause mental instability. In Revan's time, they seem to be a rather secluded organization, shutting themselves away from the rest of the galaxy. They seem to be getting more self-centered and excessively cautious, perhaps because they fear change. Also, their Code promotes the complete suppression of emotions, the avoidance of attachments and an alienation from one's family. It is my opinion that they fear emotions, and perhaps they have difficulty dealing with them. Another, more sinister theory could be that they have established all these rules in order to keep their apprentices under their complete control, isolated from any outside influences. Also, and despite their Code, some Jedi become arrogant, self-righteous and indifferent to other people's problems.


One thing that fools will never understand is that only a weakling lets the darkness control him. A mix of light and darkness is a powerful thing. Volatile, yes, but also unexpected, and thus even more dangerous.
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Old 05-02-2006, 11:25 PM   #135
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I have discovered the full truth. This truth: the Jedi and Sith are not really Jedi or Sith at heart. It is their ideals, people. The Force does not take sides with one or the other, it simply exists. Every Jedi, including the great Bindo and Jacen, the two most grey Jedi the galaxy have ever known... has never known the truth. They are stuck to their ideals, and grey Jedi are no different. The seek a balance between the too empty Jedi and the too emotional Sith. Both have disadvantages. The Jedi are supposed to ahve no emotion, and this makes the Jedi look evil, for sitting on their butts all day and mediatating. The Sith like emotions, and they allow them too much, so they throw fits easily and people get hurt. This makes the Sith look evil. In the end, both are truly evil because they cannot grasp the fact that they should not interfear with the Force's plans. If a war starts, it's the Force's will. If the galaxy gets destroyed, it's the Force's will. They have every right to defend themselves, but no right to interfear with the highest force in the universe. It is for this reason that they continue to fight each other. They can't grasp the truth. Only a Jedi Master named Qui-Gon Jinn did. He knew to let the Force take him where it would, and he let happen what would happen. He was not always this way, but I assure you, he finally got it, as have I. Whether you will is up to you. Most will continue to argue about the funadmental conflict of the universe. Light against Dark. Good against Evil. But doing this at all is evil, becuase you are innterupting the flow of life.


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Old 05-03-2006, 03:12 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JediMaster12
Yes, but then what is truth, nothing more than a point of view. Truth is an illusion to create stability and security. Truth is a lie. Is he truly lost? To be lost only means that something is to be found.
Tell me: If I steal your car, and tell you I didn't, am I telling the truth? After all, truth is an opinion.



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Old 05-03-2006, 11:31 PM   #137
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The Perfect Jedi?

The perfect Jedi is one who acknowledges the darkness as a part of the balance that they try so hard to preserve.

The perfect Jedi is one who wouldn't have treated Anakin's dark outbursts like they would simple growing pains.

The perfect Jedi, however, doesn't really exist. Grey Jedi are the closest to 'perfection.' They're not dogmatic pacifists or psychopaths.

Uthar Wynn, always struck me as the grey Jedi type - despite the Sith teachings. He was always aware of the risks someone in his position was exposed to. Despite this, he was still a teacher. If not for what would have had to been considerable darkness in his soul (for he was the leader of the Sith academy) I think he would have made one hell of a powerful grey Jedi.

Luke Skywalker's, adventures after the Battle of Yavin elevate him to the kind of persona that would fit my definition of 'perfect Jedi.' At one point he even gave into the Emperor and served the dark side. Very close to 'perfect.' He had the same kind of attitude Jolee, had, but was considerably more powerful; excellent!
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Old 05-04-2006, 03:10 AM   #138
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One thing is following the will of the Force, another is being completely controlled by it. Kreia hated the Force because of the way it would manipulate all being and "let millions die just to achieve some measure of balance". If the Force is in all living things, as some Masters have stated, then the logical thing for a Jedi to do would be promoting life, nurturing it, protecting it.The problem with the Sith is that they subvert the Force, using its power for their own petty ambitions. They don't care how much destruction they cause. I don't know if there's such thing as a perfect Jedi. Some people would probably try to achieve the best possible result by any means necessary, but would that be the right thing? I'll use one of my experimental TSL characters as an example: he brought about the best possible outcome for each of the planets, but still wiped out the Masters, and he could be violent and darksided. He wiped out the scavengers in the ruins of the Enclave when they disrespected them, and offed a certain thief during the moisture vaporators incident. He also did some tampering with a certain will, to keep an unworthy, greedy scavenger from getting her hands on Jedi artifacts. In Nar Shadaa, he wiped the floor with all the thugs who defied him, and in that part where you run into a bunch of them threatening a man, he forced them to jump off the platform.


One thing that fools will never understand is that only a weakling lets the darkness control him. A mix of light and darkness is a powerful thing. Volatile, yes, but also unexpected, and thus even more dangerous.
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Old 05-04-2006, 07:35 AM   #139
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^Your point is so unfathomable. What are you trying to get across? (Same question to you, Revan Skywalker).

William Petersen says: Pick one point, then try to make it. And for the love of god use paragraphs.

Anyway, this thread is really starting to lose it's focus. We're supposed to be discussing each other's views on what would constitute a 'perfect Jedi;' not pick out the ever obvious flaws attached to following any creed.

Of course the self destructive path of the Sith is greatly flawed - we know already, the chaos resulting in the 'one master, one apprentice' system outlines that beautifully.

And as HK has pointed out every time I've played through TSL: The Jedi leave themselfs far too vulnerable by putting the problems of the entire galaxy before their's. Yes the Clone Wars were important and their role was vital, but; Count Dooku, told Obi-Wan, that the Republic was already under the control of the Sith Lord while on Geonosis. The ignorance of the council up untill just before the Battle of Coruscant was what ultimately sealed the Order's fate.

But none of this is the point. We're here to rattle on about what would make a Jedi 'perfect.'
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Old 05-04-2006, 10:07 AM   #140
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Mental stability is one thing. You get Jedi going psycho left and right, and the Sith are crazy and proud of it. You also need someone who isn't an extremist. Take a look at Jolee. Instead of leading a sheltered life, like those of the Order, he experienced things for himself and drew his own conclusions. He doesn't go around lecturing people on what he thinks they should do. So the perfect Jedi is someone experienced, flexible, mentally stable and true to principles he can live with.


One thing that fools will never understand is that only a weakling lets the darkness control him. A mix of light and darkness is a powerful thing. Volatile, yes, but also unexpected, and thus even more dangerous.
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Old 05-04-2006, 02:08 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth InSidious
After all, truth is an opinion.
Exactly.

@Revan Skywalker: what is evil then. Nothing more than a point of view. What separates the Jedi and the Sith is CHOICE. The ability to make a concious decision separates those who gain power for themselves and those who gain power for the use of everyone. Yes power does corrupt; we've seen it.


By the way, I am surprised that this thread was revived. I had forgetten

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Old 05-04-2006, 10:22 PM   #142
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Nope. Evil is doing bad things.


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Old 05-05-2006, 12:41 PM   #143
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Then what do you call the Jedi killing? They say it is for the greater good yet it is a bad thing. So in a way, the Jedi are evil because their actions are bad.

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Old 05-06-2006, 11:07 AM   #144
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They are Guardians of Peace and Justice. Although they have an irritating tendancy to be arrogent. And then there is the issue of power corrupts, which seems to have claimed many a Jedi. Their aim to be calm level headed and Serene is noble and smart, but sometimes i think they handle the dogma is a little too authoritarian which might cause problems with the knights. But i think some of the wiser ones are the true uncorrupted champions...we don't seem to see a lot of them though...i guess its more exciting to have War in the galaxy...i suppose its hard to be peaceful and succesful in a franchise called Star WARS.
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Old 05-06-2006, 12:45 PM   #145
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The Jedi are fools and arrogant to boot. They may be the guardians of peace and justice but who are they to determine what is the greater good? The Sith on the other hand care nothing for others and are obsessed only with gaining power. Both are evil influences. The lesser of the two seems to be the Jedi.

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Old 05-06-2006, 01:22 PM   #146
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Who is anyone to determine the greater good? Sombody must make decisions. They are supposed to work with the Republic anyway.
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Old 05-06-2006, 01:44 PM   #147
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the jedi are evil and good its a point of view like in ROTS 'from my point of view the jedi are evil' that shows that its all down to choice the sith may want greater good but in a different way they think there going to do the greater good its very confusing. Take like Hitler for example i dont think he though he was doing bad things but everyone else did in a way.
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Old 05-07-2006, 02:27 AM   #148
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I'm thinking the way the entire galaxy celebrated the death of the emperor at the end of ep.VI shows that the Sith's view of what's 'good,' doesn't mesh with just about everyone else's.
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Old 05-07-2006, 02:45 AM   #149
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Duh because it is all based on opinion!!

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Old 05-07-2006, 03:30 AM   #150
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Ugh, yes, just because a person is entitled to their opinion doesn't mean that whatever they think is right.

Good and evil aren't matter's of opinion when you're talking about extremes. There are criteria to guide you with such things. We can't start making up the definitions of words... What the Sith do, evil. The Jedi, good.

Or I'll take some liberties and make up words; the Sith, drexdelzz! The Jedi, molinvians.

IMO that's what they are, drexdelzz's and molinvians!!1
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Old 05-07-2006, 06:38 AM   #151
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I believe in the old jedi code, through emotion comes irrationality, and that leads to anger and hatred and such, with attatchment comes the anger at the possibility of losing that which you are attatched to.



"You must train yourself to let go of that which you fear to lose"
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Old 05-07-2006, 04:28 PM   #152
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Quote:
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I believe in the old jedi code, through emotion comes irrationality, and that leads to anger and hatred and such, with attatchment comes the anger at the possibility of losing that which you are attatched to.



"You must train yourself to let go of that which you fear to lose"
"I don't see points on your ears boy, but you sound like a Vulcan" - Dr. McCoy
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Old 05-08-2006, 11:26 AM   #153
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Remember, the Jedi at the end of the OR had the rules they did because of their past experiences, not just because of blind idiologies. The Post-ROTJ Jedi have good examples of what bad things happen when they let themselves do whatever they want.

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Old 05-08-2006, 11:48 AM   #154
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Yeah look at Alema in the Dark Nest Trilogy.
Still in terms of good and evil, you can define something evil like killing is bad. If you look at it philosophically, you could say that the JEdi are evil for killing. What defines the limit/morality?

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Old 05-08-2006, 06:46 PM   #155
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JediMaster12, you are right in my point of view. The Jedi are the guardians of what they tthhiinnkk is peace and justice. Only the New Republic and Galactic Alliance Jedi know this, though Bindo came close. It's all POV, people.


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Old 05-09-2006, 02:09 AM   #156
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Okay, I read most of the first two pages and took the thread up again after the jump, so I might have missed somebody making my point. On the other hand, it's still my point, and that's the point of the thread, right? So here's my take on the jedi:

First off, I think the system cycles, like climate change. KOTOR and TSL take place at the very end of a cycle, when the jedi and sith are at their farthest extremes (like the late stages of something being run through a centerfuge) The sith use the power of emotion like a crutch and the jedi fear it like a plague. Over time, the codes have morphed to become what we see in the academies. At this point in the cycle, the orders collapse.
At the end of TSL (and ep VI) the jedi order is reborn, resurrected by those who realize that hiding from temptation is no defense whatsoever when it eventually ambushes you. To be able to control emotion rather than be controlled by it takes practice and experience; preferably while being guided and protected by somebody stronger and more experienced, and who cares about you.
The order grows, guided by these powerful individuals (more powerful because they neither fear nor allow themselves to be conquered by emotion)
Over time, jedi fail and fall. It's inevitable. Not every practitioner can handle power correctly, and there are those who initially seem stronger than they are. Not all jedi fall, of course, but enough do. As more and more Jedi fall over time, those jedi remaining, and perhaps the aging jedi who now rule, become nervous ("them young whippersnappers cain't take it like we could when we was young! We'll have to keep them on a tighter leash, since they's so weak!") and the long slow tumble into the centerfuge begins again.

In the end, my take on jedi depends on what era the jedi exist in.
The order in the time of the Mandalorian wars was so caught up in their power and the consequences of it, that they had become paralysed. They'd have sat and watched the galaxy ripped to shreds rather than risk the butterfly effect. Kreia had that one pretty bad too. At some point, worrying about far-flung repercussions becomes obsession, and is worse than ignoring consequences entirely. For these characters, I have little but contempt (yeah, Vrook, I'm talking to you! You weasel! )

Although it hasn't really been shown, I believe that the jedi of the post TSL era (assuming LS play) would have been stronger and more balanced, and truer to the spirit of what the jedi were meant to be; guardians of justice and right. Likewise those jedi after Ep VI--as opposed to the TAs who let the empire be born out of the republic rather than learn to deal with temptation instead of hiding from it. (Although Yoda might have figured things out just before he transcended)
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Old 05-09-2006, 09:50 AM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JediMaster12
Yeah look at Alema in the Dark Nest Trilogy.
Still in terms of good and evil, you can define something evil like killing is bad. If you look at it philosophically, you could say that the JEdi are evil for killing. What defines the limit/morality?
The Jedi are not creatures of morality, and do not define their actions as such one way or the other.

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Old 05-09-2006, 07:16 PM   #158
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The Jedi do what they think is right, though it is not always right. The Sith, well, they wwwwwaaaaaannnnnnnnttttt to do bad stuff.


I'm a marshmallow away from a bowo of lucky charms.
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Old 05-09-2006, 11:20 PM   #159
DarthDeceptus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Revan Skywalker
The Jedi do what they think is right, though it is not always right. The Sith, well, they wwwwwaaaaaannnnnnnnttttt to do bad stuff.
Well, both do stuff that is good for themself


Jabba doesn't have time for smugglers who drop their pants at the first sign of an Imperial Cruiser.
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Old 05-10-2006, 06:32 PM   #160
Revan Skywalker
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Correct.


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