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Old 05-09-2006, 03:34 AM   #41
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Destorying general grievous was what ultimately destoryed them because after his ship was destoryed the cis mostly went into hiding no more attacks or anything then it just went into hunting so its likely that most of the droids were controled my grievous's flagship and the rest of the raid fleets captial ships.

And then when they went to utapal its likely that that was there headquaters so after they destoryed there outpost there billions of droids would have just been disabled like in episode 1.

Then when anakin went to kill the cis leaders on mustafar that would of proably been there last major outposts so after anakin destoryed them there that was the end of he cis only afew more outposts were left but they had no commandos so they just sat there like you see on geononis on starwars:rouge squadron 3.
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Old 05-09-2006, 06:18 AM   #42
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they probley diddent have the advantage in numbers in battle
THOSE WHO CANNOT DEFEND THEM SELFS SHOULD NOT BE AROUND THOSE WHO CAN
ive seen that happen alot in many battles and in my own battles also most run off because they cannot defend them self
and really its forfit its pretty true if you think about it the cis never had the advantage in numbers if they had larger numbers they might not have lost if you think about a war that happend recently against the iraqi in desert storm the us had the advantage in numbers so the iraqi had to give up they never had the advantage in numbers


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Old 05-09-2006, 12:25 PM   #43
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What do you mean? The production show in AOTC alone implies billions of droids, minimum, and only speaks of "one million units" (plus another half a million units=1.5 million "units").

According to the EU there are either "quadrillions" or "quintillions" of droids, a unit for clones equals one soldier, and that they only "tripled" the number of clones, to 3.x million.

So you have:

3,000,000+ clones vs.
2,000,000,000,000,000+ (or)
2,000,000,000,000,000,000+ droids!

So that's equivalent to:
3 to 2,000,000,000 (or 2,000,000,000,000 odds!)

We don't know the population of the CIS systems, they just refer to "thousands of star systems" and then "another 10,000 star systems will rally to our cause" (Dooku, speaking to the other leaders in AOTC). This is enough to spur Civil War with the Republic. The Empire is said to be something like a million star systems according to the movie novelisation iirc (in Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker).

Of course does this mean populated systems? How many living in each?

But ultimately it means little. In the movies the vast majority of the Seperatist forces we see are made up of droids, and the vast majority of the Republic forces are either Clones or Jedi. Yes, they do show local troops backing up their side (Wookiees, Geonosians, Utapauans), but these forces are relatively small by comparison.

Are you saying the CIS had tons of undefended planets and so were stretched too thin? Who knows, but I would think that would be more of a problem for the Republic, especially if they had the miniscule numbers for an army that the EU says they had. I wonder if a system would break away from the Republic to join the CIS if they didn't have some fighting force...


Anyway in the movie everyone acted like killing General Grievous would "end the war" but of course it obviously didn't. After Anakin murdered the Seperatist Leaders on Mustafar Palpatine ordered him to order the droids to all "shut down." Assumedly that could be done from the headquarters there on the planet, so why assume that before then they had shut down billions of droids? In a deleted scene for AOTC, a team of Jedi commandeer the droid control ship over Geonosis and give the shut down order. The droids in the arena stand still for a moment, then sputter back to life on "backup systems" (or something like that). So we're supposed to believe that they thought of this after their embarrassing defeat in TPM at Naboo. Of course this scene never made it into the actual movies, and I can't remember if it was mentioned in the novelisation, but probably.


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Old 05-10-2006, 01:49 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
According to the EU there are either "quadrillions" or "quintillions" of droids, a unit for clones equals one soldier, and that they only "tripled" the number of clones, to 3.x million.
As I pointed out, the canon number for droids is now "hundreds of millions", which also goes against other information. Given the production rate of Geonosis alone, that number can be built up in a matter of days.

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Originally Posted by Kurgan
So you have:

3,000,000+ clones vs.
2,000,000,000,000,000+ (or)
2,000,000,000,000,000,000+ droids!

So that's equivalent to:
3 to 2,000,000,000 (or 2,000,000,000,000 odds!)

We don't know the population of the CIS systems, they just refer to "thousands of star systems" and then "another 10,000 star systems will rally to our cause" (Dooku, speaking to the other leaders in AOTC). This is enough to spur Civil War with the Republic. The Empire is said to be something like a million star systems according to the movie novelisation iirc (in Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker).
As far as I know the million count for the number of star systems in the Empire (and therefore probably a similar if slightly less number for the Republic) is canon.

Which begs the question. Why did Palpatine/the Republic need to create the clone army at all, if it was going to be so few in number (apart from the stuff going on behind the scenes)? I mean, you could take the 3 best soldier off each planet and have the same number. They might not be quite as good as clones, but they would definitely be near that level. A draft in that case would be a much more effective way to build such an army.

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Old 05-10-2006, 07:52 PM   #45
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Well, this ain't realistic. Anyway, as RL shows, you can draft as many troops from as many countries as you want, but quality goes down the pan!

It makes good cinema and lets Lucas play with sci-fi stuff as he pretends he's an expert on robotics and cloning. Heck a single suicide bomber would wipe the senate. 9/11 x1000 methinks.


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Old 05-10-2006, 09:46 PM   #46
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It doesn't really matter who had the bigger army. The Droids weren't as effecient as the clones. And they had a ton of Jedi on their side, while the CIS only had Droids, more droids, Durge, ventress, Dooku, and Grievous.

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Old 05-11-2006, 01:47 AM   #47
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Hundreds of millions? So minimum 200 to 1 odds. Are these hacks still claiming that every Clone trooper kills 200 droids?

More nonsense I say, but more realistic than millions of clones vs. "quadrillions" (or quintillions!) of droids.

Why can't these guys and gals just watch the movies carefully and extrapolate from there? Oh well...

PS: Anybody know which source is now claiming "hundreds of millions of droids"? Just curious.


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Old 05-11-2006, 01:38 PM   #48
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I think it is in one of the latest Insider magazines.

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Old 05-11-2006, 01:42 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Prime
I think it is in one of the latest Insider magazines.
I think it is too. I have it, and I'll check when I get home.


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Old 05-15-2006, 01:21 PM   #50
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its all been said here im just gonna but it in my own words. The Droids lost on two fronts. The clones even though there numbers were low are better soldiers. They have insticts and feelings. They also in a phitness perspective have much more flexibility. But also they were under control of the emperor so thats how the CIS lost. Its seen in the Revenge of the Sith.


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Old 05-15-2006, 02:14 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Redtech
Well, this ain't realistic. Anyway, as RL shows, you can draft as many troops from as many countries as you want, but quality goes down the pan!

It makes good cinema and lets Lucas play with sci-fi stuff as he pretends he's an expert on robotics and cloning. Heck a single suicide bomber would wipe the senate. 9/11 x1000 methinks.
I'll arrogantly quote myself for truth.


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Old 05-15-2006, 03:57 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by 06protoguy
its all been said here im just gonna but it in my own words. The Droids lost on two fronts. The clones even though there numbers were low are better soldiers. They have insticts and feelings. They also in a phitness perspective have much more flexibility. But also they were under control of the emperor so thats how the CIS lost. Its seen in the Revenge of the Sith.
One thing you do notice about the Battle Droids is that they don't take cover or attempt to stay out of the firing line, they just walk forward and shoot, one think that would def. make them more susceptible to getting blown away than the Clones.



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Old 05-15-2006, 07:29 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by MachineCult
One thing you do notice about the Battle Droids is that they don't take cover or attempt to stay out of the firing line, they just walk forward and shoot, one think that would def. make them more susceptible to getting blown away than the Clones.
True, Very true. you make a good point. They tried to use numbers instead of stradgey. (Also seen in The Lord of the Rings) But in the end all it took was one man.


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Old 05-15-2006, 07:50 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by MachineCult
One thing you do notice about the Battle Droids is that they don't take cover or attempt to stay out of the firing line, they just walk forward and shoot, one think that would def. make them more susceptible to getting blown away than the Clones.
Not true at all. I know in TPM, you can see droids ducking under cover in the Theed hallways. Frankly, there is very little cover available in most of the areas that the droids fight (hangars, Geonosis, even Utapau). Obviously, there is no way that the figures given could reflect reality, 200 to 1 odds would be insumountable.
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Old 05-15-2006, 08:20 PM   #55
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boinga is right i completly forgot about those parts. and he is right about the lack of cover. but i am staying with my decision that in a battle clones will win,


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Old 05-16-2006, 05:59 AM   #56
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Until ROTS, the tactics of the Clone troopers was really no better than that of the droids. And in ROTS we see them taking HEAVY losses in combat against droids.

What shows them having success in AOTC is the element of surprise and their big guns that seem to be able to blow up droids in one shot. Of course droids can kill the clones in one shot as well, with weaker guns, so there you go.

It's all well and good to say that Clones are superior to droids (the only evidence for that we have in the movies is Lama Su's word for it, but he could just be exaggerating due to pride and to promote his product), but if the EU (Prior to this most recent retcon) is to be believed, they still should have lost, because there's no way that a few million soldiers can win a war against "quintillions" of soldiers even if they are slightly inferior, or even if every clone kills 2,000 droids each (even quadrillions is insanely impossible odds).

Still, even with the retcon, the Clone Wars turn into a tiny skirmish, not a galactic scale war as the movies depict them and we're supposed to believe. And if Clones make up such a tiny portion of the forces involved, why name the entire war after them (as Yoda does after the first battle)?

Given the EU situation (pre retcon), the CIS losing beggared belief, despite Palpatine's meddling and alleged Seperatist incompetance and alleged Clone soldier l33tness...

Now it just makes the war look pointless and inconsequential, far from the epic scale it was always intended to be. I think this is a solid example of EU writers basically all but ruining something cool from the movies. Oh well...


I mean, watching the movies and just forgetting the EU stuff while you do, you get the impression that the two sides are pretty evenly matched, with just some strengths and weaknesses on both sides with fairly even numbers (we just have to assume that "1 unit does not equal 1 individual soldier, otherwise the droid factories if they're all like Geonosis would far outproduce the Republic in short order), and what REALLY changed things was that Palpatine had "fixed" the sides and was playing them both against each other by controlling the top leader (Dooku) and manipulating everyone. THAT was believable, this other stuff that came later... not very much so.


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Old 05-17-2006, 11:48 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Now it just makes the war look pointless and inconsequential, far from the epic scale it was always intended to be. I think this is a solid example of EU writers basically all but ruining something cool from the movies. Oh well...
Again, all of which could have been avoided if the original number had just been changed.

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Old 05-17-2006, 04:30 PM   #58
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In the movies (millions of "units") or in the EU literature (3.x million)?


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Old 05-17-2006, 06:43 PM   #59
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The rep. in my eyes which arent very in tune with EU, had the vehicle advantage
i mean atte, that wheele swamp thing and other stuff while the CIS had hail fire, spider and aat



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Old 05-18-2006, 09:35 AM   #60
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The number of ground units getting owned is pretty high as well. You see an AT-TE blown away with one Hailfire missile on Geonosis and a UT-AT being killed by a "giant uber virus droid-looking-thing" on Mygeeto. A lot of clones would get wiped by one vehicle being wrecked, but numerically, each functional droid is a unit by it's own right (despite them being inert in BF1/2).


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Old 05-19-2006, 01:10 AM   #61
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Wow.... Kargath is the only person I recongnize in this topic... it's been too long...

Anyway, if we are getting on the topic of vehicles of the different opposing sides, i'd have to say that the Republic's vehicles are far superior. Droid Starfighters are have little armor, not very many weapons, and as far as I know they have no shields. Basically they're mainly like cannon fodder... such as TIE fighters are in the OT. Face it, preprogrammed flight paths can't combat the sheer force of ships piloted by multiple clones, they just can make better strategical choices... (Stealth anyone? Crappy movie...) proving to be a more formidible force. This was even more confirmed in the battle between Thrawn and the Trade Federation in Outbound Flight.

Land assault? Same thing... massive amounts of hail-fire droids and other vehicles arn't a match for clone-piloted vehicles.

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Old 05-19-2006, 02:05 AM   #62
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The Republic fighters don't seem so great in ROTS. The Jedi fighters don't seem to have any shields at all... or hyperdrive for that matter, while the droid fighters are equipped with missiles and buzz droids and can transform and crawl around on capital ship hulls...


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Old 05-23-2006, 01:53 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
In the movies (millions of "units") or in the EU literature (3.x million)?
The EU number.

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Old 05-24-2006, 10:49 AM   #64
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Anyway, who exactly is controlling the overall strategy? You don't neede geniuses who can fight, just someone smart to lead them. Think Hannibal, Carthage had a PATHETIC army of mercenaries who still managed to crush the disiplined and millitarily superior Roman army.


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Old 05-24-2006, 11:47 AM   #65
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But any real life example of victory against greater you throw out are not of the 3 to 2,000,000,000 variety.

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Old 05-24-2006, 03:36 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Redtech
Anyway, who exactly is controlling the overall strategy? You don't neede geniuses who can fight, just someone smart to lead them. Think Hannibal, Carthage had a PATHETIC army of mercenaries who still managed to crush the disiplined and millitarily superior Roman army.
You saw that programme on BBC 1 the other week didn't you. Lol, it was funny seeing Dr Bashir from DS9 as The Carthaginian general.



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Old 05-27-2006, 12:46 AM   #67
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An interesting take on the whole number debate and the craziness of SW fandom.

Let the flames begin.

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Old 05-28-2006, 12:04 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Prime
But any real life example of victory against greater you throw out are not of the 3 to 2,000,000,000 variety.
I was siding with the CIS against the "Droids are too stupid to win" idealology.

---------------
MachineCult, I did see it, I'm a Rome:total War fan, after all... I fear that he might be getting typcast as he might have "arab" roots.

He did good in that role though, despite the small BBC budget.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
An interesting take on the whole number debate and the craziness of SW fandom.

Let the flames begin.
More literary Bukkake methinks.


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Old 05-28-2006, 12:15 PM   #69
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Or rather, let no flaming commence.


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Old 05-29-2006, 10:01 AM   #70
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I liked the movie at the end....


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Old 05-29-2006, 01:57 PM   #71
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Or rather, let no flaming commence.
I mean on that page.

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Old 05-31-2006, 06:56 PM   #72
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The CIS lose there leaders and because they have the IQ of a 4 year old
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Old 06-03-2006, 01:20 PM   #73
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But the CIS should have won within 30-100 days. 3 years is way to long for 3 million clones to hold of an army millions/billions times its size.


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Old 06-03-2006, 10:44 PM   #74
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I think fatal flaws is deliberately built into CIS so they would be a lot less efficient than what it should be.

CIS is designed to wear out the Jedis, and at the same time, make the clones and Palpy look like a hero.
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Old 06-05-2006, 03:11 PM   #75
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Right, one reason why Palpatine would have prefered the clones to win: if the CIS was going to win, then they would have to openly take down every single Jedi, taking enormous losses, because the Jedi would be expecting the droids to attack them. They didn't know the clones would attack them, that is the only reason that the Jedi were wiped out (apart from Vader, but Sidious+Dooku could have both done the same themselves). And if Sidous had REALLY wanted to take the galaxy by force (as would have been the case with the CIS) he could have quite easily remade the Sith Order on some remote Outer Rim planet that the Republic didn't bother with...
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Old 06-09-2006, 07:12 AM   #76
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So what if he took massive loses against the jedi. They are droids, and they outnumber the jedi so much, that it didn't matter.

And rebuilding the sith order on a outback planet simply idn't the sith style. There's a reason for the rule of two.


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Old 06-09-2006, 08:22 AM   #77
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KOTOR tends to show the prob with many Sith every time you see more than 2 attempt to get along.


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Old 09-02-2006, 03:18 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by arkodeon
The only person in the CIS who knew Palpatine was Sidious was Dooku, I don't believe any other droid/general knew. Therefore, I don't know why Grievous DIDN'T inflict more damage on Coruscant. Sure, Dooku might have said "Don't do it," but after Dooku died, I'd get mad and order all Turbolasers to fire on the planet.

Heck, he could have even fired on the Jedi Temple if he didn't want to REALLY disobey the commander. Dooku wouldn't be able to object; he was a Sith, and it would have looked REALLY suspicious.
The planetary shield would prevent any such bombardment from succeeding.


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Old 09-02-2006, 12:43 PM   #79
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I thought the planetary shield was down? Either because they were surprised or because it was sabotaged before the battle?

In any case, if it were up, wouldn't it have trapped everyone in the battle ON the planet (since they were supposedly in the upper atmosphere the whole time)?

Of course the planetary shield is a problem for the EU to figure out, since it's never mentioned in the movie (not that it couldn't exist, though some have tried to argue that shields that big didn't exist in the galaxy yet).


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Old 09-02-2006, 01:19 PM   #80
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Well, it seems to suggest that most planetary shields would not prevent ships from foing planetside. That having said almost all ships capable of planetary bombardment are too big to get past the shields since that would require the ship to get into such a low orbit that it would fall.
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