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Old 12-14-2005, 11:27 PM   #41
RobQel-Droma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Windu
What?!?!?!?!?!?! Um, let me think about that for a second - no. EVERYTHING in Star Wars is based on the films. If you don't like it I suggest you get over it.
Ummm... No. Everything in Star Wars originated from the films- however, many things in EU are not based on the films at all. The films were just what started it; Everything else went farther with the original ideas. The only thing that is the same is that it still has usually four things: the lightsaber, the force, Jedi, and Sith. Other than that many things are in EU that are not even mentioned in the movies.

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Originally Posted by Darth Windu
But then politics shows us that people will many times say they don't want something simply because they are afraid of change, and then find out they like it.
This is a video game, Darth Windu. It has nothing to do with being "afraid of change" . It is just that, frankly, it is a stupid idea that doesn't really have any good basis. Not only that, every single person who has replied to this thread has said "no."

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Originally Posted by Darth Windu
and seeing as how I'm a purist, you can tell how much that annoyed me. Really though, they weren't Sith - they were bad Jedi.
This is where you get inconsistent Darth Windu. What about those guys like the one Sith who talked to Darth Malak on the Star Forge? What are they known as specifically in both games? Answer: "Sith Masters." What about in TSL? Answer: "Sith Lords", "Sith Assassins", "Sith Marauders." Not Dark Jedi Marauder, not Evil Jedi Assassins, - they were Sith. And they are specifically called that in the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Windu
As for the arena Jedi, show me a single example of a Jedi using a double bladed lightsabre and I will concede the point. Even if they aren't using both sides, the hilt is quite a bit longer so it should be easy enough to find.
Darth Windu- I've given you many, many examples of Jedi using a saberstaff, and Sith using dual sabers. In fact, from the very game we are talking about! And what has been in the games is way more important than what has been in the movies. Its like taking something from some other EU game or book and incorporating it into another, especially when it violates the rules that the game has been going on from the beginning.
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Old 12-15-2005, 04:56 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Actually, a lot of people said no, and if you look at the history of the double blade in games, they have rarely been exclusively given to Dark Side users. They weren't in Jedi Academy and they aren't in both KotOR games.
True, but then just because something hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. Take influence in TSL for example. It wasn't in KotOR, JO or JA, yet it is a good addition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Besides, it's a bad idea because it's a penalty against LS double-bladed saber users. It is used to penalize those LS who want to use something they're not supposed to use. There is nothing that indicates that only Sith use double blades.
It isn't just a penalty to LS double-blade users. It would be
- Positive modifer for DS double-blade user
- Negative modifer for LS double-blade user
- Positive modifier for LS twin single-blade user
- Negative modifier for DS twin single-blade user

As for 'nothing indicates only the Sith use it', there are in fact two pieces of evidence. A Sith Lord uses it, yet Jedi do not, and it is offically called the 'Sith Lightsaber'.

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Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Yeah, they learn the code of the Sith, are lead by two Sith masters, have Sith teachers but aren't Sith
You just refuse to see the truth.
By the way, it would be wonderful fun if we only fought two lightsaber wielding opponents in the whole game
Actually I think it would be more fun to only fight two lightsabre-wielding opponents if playing LS. Bump them up a lot compared to Sion and Nihilus and replace other lightsabre wielders with elite troops or things like the assassins.

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Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Actually, it is. You're saying that a double-bladed saber can only be used by Dark Siders because we see only one of them using it.
No. No, no, no, no, no, no. That is not what I'm saying, nor has it ever been. What I'm saying is that since we only ever see the Sith using it, and it's more aggressive, it is linked with the DS more than the LS. LS players would be able to use it the same as they do now, they would just have some penalties.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
He says that since we see only one person using a plasma torch, that weapon must be related to the Jedi.
Note one.
He's only applying the same logic of generalization on one person.

It's like saying one white man is a racist so all white men are racists.
You're making a very vast generalization based upon one person.
No. Lightsabre's are Jedi-specific, other weapons are not, so it's irrelevant. As for the generalisation sure, I am generalising, but given the sample sizes it can't be avoided.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Your "evidence" and your entire idea is based on one person out of four.
I'm sure you know a bit about statistics as I assume that you've been to Uni and can make a good reasoning. When the sample is so small, you simply cannot make a correct conclusion.
As said, I agree I'm generalising but it is still a logical conclusion to draw. Of all of the Jedi we see, which would number around 100 or more, only one of them uses a double-blade, with that person being a Sith.


Rob - again, the films are everything. If EU contradicts the film, then that EU is wrong. As for evidence, great you've given some evidence, but your's is from EU, mine is from the films. Hence my evidence is 'better' in terms of canon.


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Old 12-15-2005, 05:52 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Windu
As for 'nothing indicates only the Sith use it', there are in fact two pieces of evidence. A Sith Lord uses it, yet Jedi do not, and it is offically called the 'Sith Lightsaber'.

What I'm saying is that since we only ever see the Sith using it, and it's more aggressive, it is linked with the DS more than the LS. LS players would be able to use it the same as they do now, they would just have some penalties.
Sorry, but it seems that you want to argue things to death over a really small issue, one that you simply cannot win, the D20 rules have final say over game mechanics, not the Movies or the EU, and you are talking game mechanics here, so what you are saying won't happen, the D20 rules don't allow for things like this.

See this is an RPG, and as such has a rules system, sometimes the source material for an RPG has to be slightly deviated from to fit an RPG Rules system, this is common practice in RPG circles. So Double Bladed Sabers are not affiliated with the DS, nor will they ever be in this system. The saber itself is simply a weapon in the eyes of the game system, nothing more.

In the eyes of the D20 RPG, Darth Maul was Evil (DS) his saber was not, it was just a tool. Only by adding in alignment restricted crystals does a saber take on aligned properties, and they can be removed/replaced. So the saber is clearly not evil, only the crystals might be. There is a logical reason for this, as many of the EU characters are written as using a double bladed saber, not all are evil either, and the RPG has to take this into account, even though you don't want to.

And for the record I am against catagorizing a normal, non-magical, or non-poisioned weapon class as "Evil", weapons cannot be evil only their wielders.


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Old 12-15-2005, 09:37 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Windu
True, but then just because something hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. Take influence in TSL for example. It wasn't in KotOR, JO or JA, yet it is a good addition.
Totally different situation. Influence does not penalize anyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Windu
It isn't just a penalty to LS double-blade users. It would be
- Positive modifer for DS double-blade user
- Negative modifer for LS double-blade user
- Positive modifier for LS twin single-blade user
- Negative modifier for DS twin single-blade user
Same difference. Nobody wants penalties for either LS double or DS dual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Windu
As for 'nothing indicates only the Sith use it', there are in fact two pieces of evidence. A Sith Lord uses it, yet Jedi do not, and it is offically called the 'Sith Lightsaber'.
Strange that you use EU when it forwards your goal. Nowhere in the movie it's called a Sith Lightsaber.
Whoever made that up didn't really think.
Once again, one Sith Lord.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Windu
Actually I think it would be more fun to only fight two lightsabre-wielding opponents if playing LS. Bump them up a lot compared to Sion and Nihilus and replace other lightsabre wielders with elite troops or things like the assassins.
One of the major complaints by the majority of people here about TSL is the lack of force-wielding opponents.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Windu
No. No, no, no, no, no, no. That is not what I'm saying, nor has it ever been. What I'm saying is that since we only ever see the Sith using it, and it's more aggressive, it is linked with the DS more than the LS. LS players would be able to use it the same as they do now, they would just have some penalties.
You are. You do realize that penalties are used as a deterrent right? Thus you don't want LS double-bladed users to exist even if technically they can. You simply have no grasp of what penalties are used for in an RPG.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Windu
No. Lightsabre's are Jedi-specific, other weapons are not, so it's irrelevant. As for the generalisation sure, I am generalising, but given the sample sizes it can't be avoided.
Still doesn't make it less of a generalization, one that is ridiculous considering the sample size and it simply is unconclusive to make such a conclusion based on a 4 men sample.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Windu
As said, I agree I'm generalising but it is still a logical conclusion to draw. Of all of the Jedi we see, which would number around 100 or more, only one of them uses a double-blade, with that person being a Sith.
So now Jedi and Sith are in the same pool? It seems you've just merged two populations to pull out a stat.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Windu
Rob - again, the films are everything. If EU contradicts the film, then that EU is wrong. As for evidence, great you've given some evidence, but your's is from EU, mine is from the films. Hence my evidence is 'better' in terms of canon.
Not in a game talks about Exar Kun, Nomi Sunrider, etc.
Hell, I'll go as far as say that there's a small reference to the Yuuzhan Vong.
It's totally irrelevant to use pure canon "logic".

If that was the case, the game would be absolutely horrible, being nothing more then a carbon copy of what it is lightly based upon.


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Old 12-15-2005, 10:46 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Windu
What I'm saying is that since we only ever see the Sith using it, and it's more aggressive, it is linked with the DS more than the LS. LS players would be able to use it the same as they do now, they would just have some penalties.
If a LS player has the required proficiencies (i.e. have the right training), they should be able to use it just as well as any other character. If you really want to discourage somethings use by LS characters for example, make the character face criticism from the "powers that be" (Council or whatever) as they perhaps might in "the real world". But there is nothing inherant about these lightsabers that make them more or less difficult to use by LS/DS characters. Creating such modifiers would not reflect the universe it is sumulating and would be completely artificial.

Ventress for example is trained to use two lightsabers and doesn't seem to have any problems, and Bastila has no problems using a double-bladed saber.

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Old 12-15-2005, 11:58 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Windu
Rob - again, the films are everything. If EU contradicts the film, then that EU is wrong.
In a game that is set 4000 years before the films? No, it is not. It came originally from the films, but everything else are things that have been expanded upon. I gave you evidence from the game we are playing! And you ignore it for the stupid films. I don't care, we are in a discussion about KotOR, not what four Sith did in the movies. And none of this EU contradicts the films, either- So why bring that up?

As for the credibility of the evidence, you are wrong there too. Mine, while it is from the EU, is from that same exact game, time period, etc. The evidence from the films, while it is good, is from four, repeat four people, who 1) Are set 4000 years later than the game, and 2) only four, while their are hundreds in KotOR. Who knows, maybe if there was only four, it might be an actual possibility that maybe between the four of them, neither really wanted to dual-wield, and it was just a matter of preference between them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Windu
No. Lightsabre's are Jedi-specific, other weapons are not, so it's irrelevant. As for the generalisation sure, I am generalising, but given the sample sizes it can't be avoided.
*cough* Then why are Sith Assassins using sticks? And why through half of TSL are you not using a lightsaber? Ok, so they are the weapon of a Jedi. But they are still a weapon. Basically we are arguing about whether a lightsaber is DS or LS. Since it in itself is not, then what really makes a simple lightsaber really different? If the Jedi used plasma torches in the movies, then everyone would be saying "A plasma torch is the weapon of the Jedi." There would be, of course, something that would make the torch "special." And lightsabers would just be some other weapon.

Comes my point about the robes and warblades. None of the DS/LS restricted items in the game are lightsabers, they are robes, armor, and headgear, mostly. And the ancient vibroblades are also said to be powerful artifacts, too (although they usually aren't restricted). So what is so special about the lightsabers? They are simple tools/weapons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Windu
No. No, no, no, no, no, no. That is not what I'm saying, nor has it ever been. What I'm saying is that since we only ever see the Sith using it, and it's more aggressive, it is linked with the DS more than the LS. LS players would be able to use it the same as they do now, they would just have some penalties.
I guess you don't understand this. Who is going to want to use a weapon that has penalties to it naturally because they are of the "wrong" alignment? They can use it, but they won't. People will hate it, because it limits what they can do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Windu
As for evidence, great you've given some evidence, but your's is from EU, mine is from the films. Hence my evidence is 'better' in terms of canon.
Uh-huh, right. And if the films said that Leia was your mother you'd believe them too. I hate to thing what the game would be if you were producing it. It would be a battle against two single super-powered Sith, with everyone else being simple troops, you couldn't choose your favorite weapon because of penalties, and it would be an absolute rip-off of the movies.

Windu, the movies are not God. They do not decide what is right and wrong in a EU game set 4000 years before the films; Especially something as trivial as lightsaber penalties.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Windu
As for 'nothing indicates only the Sith use it', there are in fact two pieces of evidence. A Sith Lord uses it, yet Jedi do not, and it is offically called the 'Sith Lightsaber'.
"A Sith Lord uses it, yet Zez-Kai Ell and Bastila Shan use it too." They use it in the game we are talking about. And Asajj Ventress- Sith dual wielder- Remember that scar on Anakin's face in RotS? It is said to specifically have come from an encounter with Ventress between AotC and RotS. That alone is enough for me, not to mention the amount of other examples I've given.

"It is officially called the 'Sith Lightsaber'." And your point is?... That doesn't mean one single thing, if you look at it. It doesn't matter really that it is called that, it doesn't mean that because it is "associated" with them it is a DS weapon. It is just associated with them, like all black robes are associated with the Sith. But does that mean a lightsider can't wear the black Sith robes or use them effectively? No, it doesn't.

Say, what was all this about "Sith Masters" not really being "Sith Masters" but being bad Jedi? Even when "Sith" is their official name? And now you are talking about "the official name" for the saberstaff? Come on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Windu
As said, I agree I'm generalising but it is still a logical conclusion to draw. Of all of the Jedi we see, which would number around 100 or more, only one of them uses a double-blade, with that person being a Sith.
Does it ever tell you that a Jedi in the films doesn't? How do we know, one of them actually might, we just don't see him. In fact, I don't remember seeing dual-wielding Jedi in the arena.
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Old 12-16-2005, 04:52 AM   #47
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Prime - not a bad idea, meditate on this I must...

Rob - as for duel sabre-wielding in the arean, there are a few examples.
1. Right after Obi, Anakin and Padme get blasted off the beat they were riding, in the background there is a Jedi with one blue and one green lightsabre.
2. After Mace gets trampled by the same beasty, there is one, maybe two (I only have VHS so it's hard to tell) Jedi with twin-blades, but you only see them for a second.


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Old 12-16-2005, 12:22 PM   #48
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We still on this DS/LS penalty thing for dual wielding and saberstaffs? Darth Windu give it up. I think half the people in the forum say the same thing: NO.
They like the current style and I'm in that club. Frankly I'm getting tired of this discussion.

*Draws saberstaff and cuts PC to pieces*

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Old 12-16-2005, 12:34 PM   #49
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I guess I'll have to watch closer for those Jedi. But that still brings me back to my point. Look at it this way:

1) First of all, has it ever ocurred to you that maybe there were Jedi using the saberstaff but you just didn't see them? I know, it is kind of pointless to say "what if", but still; Just because you didn't see any doesn't mean there wasn't, especially since you only see a few Jedi fighting.

2) The whole thing about saberstaff being DS because you only saw Darth Maul use saw doesn't really mean anything. Just because you only see him using it doesn't mean that it is a DS weapon, actually. As I said, out of 4 people, could just be a matter of personal preference, among the Sith and the Jedi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Windu
As for evidence, great you've given some evidence, but your's is from EU, mine is from the films. Hence my evidence is 'better' in terms of canon.
3) Your's is better? No, its not. My evidence was EU, in fact, it was EU from the same time period, all connected to the game we are talking about, even some from the game itself. Going on the films and saying since because of that it is "canon" and has relevance over everything else is wrong. The films are just films, they aren't games, and just because you generalize a saberstaff into DS because of one person in the films doesn't mean that (a) it is relevant 4000 years ago, and (b) that that person, Maul, is the only one. The game we are talking about mentions and shows people like Zez-Kai Ell, Bastila Shan, etc. And so, in the game we are talking about, Jedi do use the saberstaff, and evidence in the very game we are talking about is better than evidence from four people in the films.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Windu
No. Lightsabre's are Jedi-specific, other weapons are not, so it's irrelevant. As for the generalisation sure, I am generalising, but given the sample sizes it can't be avoided.
4) But it doesn't matter. I was talking about the amount of generalization you were doing, in which it doesn't matter what weapon the Jedi were using, since I am talking about another certain point. It is exactly relevant. I said, one Jedi uses a plasma torch, so it must be LS, right? It doesn't matter that it isn't a Jedi weapon, it is still the same appliance of generalization.

5) "Given the sample sizes...."? We've given you many examples Windu, much more than one out of four, yet you ignore them. It isn't that it can't be avoided, its just that you can't get it through your brain that KotOR Jedi/Sith matter just as much, in fact, more than film Jedi/Sith.

EDIT: JediMaster12 is right, your idea has only two votes- Frankly, the devs aren't going to put in an idea especially if it has about a 1% minority that says yes.
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Old 12-16-2005, 10:53 PM   #50
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Rob - actually, my idea has three votes, not two

As for Jedi using Sith Lightsabre's in the arena, nope. The offical site says that sabre is only in TPM, and I have never seen any evidence of Jedi using it.


Jedi Master - fine, I'm actually still looking for comments on my other ideas.


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Old 12-17-2005, 02:00 AM   #51
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How about we get off the subject and get to things we agree on, like JediMaster said. I'm not really sure we are getting anywhere to each other with this.

As for the classes, I don't particulater like "Force Master," but I would rather have something other than "Jedi Master" and "Weaponsmaster." However, the only problem I would have with renaming them is that it would be kind of wierd to have one name for them in TSL and another in KotOR III. Of course, it wouldn't be changing the basics. But for non-Jedi classes:

Soldier: Commando (LS), Mercernary (DS)

Scout: Ranger (LS), Bounty Hunter (DS)

Scoundrel: No clue. Maybe something like "Noble", or "Assassin." Help me out on that one.

The names could be changed, of course, especially with Bounty Hunter and Mercenary, if it was more suited to the other class.
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Old 12-17-2005, 10:47 PM   #52
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I think Bounty hunter is good, but merc should be changed since its about the same thing as a Bounty Hunter.


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Old 12-17-2005, 10:50 PM   #53
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Not really. A mercenary is just a soldier for hired. He does regular soldier duties.
A bounty hunter is a specialist who tracks down or hunts targets for money. They are more assassins then foot soldiers.


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Old 12-17-2005, 10:51 PM   #54
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^Yes, a merc and a bounty hunter are different. As LIAYD said, a merc is a regular soldier that is for hire, while a bounty hunter is more of a hired assassin.
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Old 12-17-2005, 11:05 PM   #55
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You've got a point...


Edit by D333: thread closed at the request of the author.


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Last edited by Darth333; 12-23-2005 at 01:43 AM.
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