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Old 12-19-2005, 01:01 AM   #1
REDJOHNNYMIKE
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Lightbulb Limitations.

Here's something new I want to see for kotor...
LIMITED EVERYTHING!

I want to be dueling Sion when my saber finally dies, I switch to my shorter backup sabers, after they burn out I switch to my mandalorian heavy blasters until I hear the hollow clicks of an empty ammunition clip so I throw them at him and start jabbing, and by the time I land that last solid haymaker my armor has 3hp left and is hanging in pieces.

Limited personal inventory would of course accompany these combat modifications.

Swords could also dull, the more damage done, the more damage decrease from dulled edges (must be sharpened or replaced) and when used to block attacks they slowly start to break (hope you're not in combat when it does)

I would like to see armor degrade during use, plates dangling by threads, underlayments fraying and shredding etc.
If done with physics instead of just multiple models it would really help customize your character, especially when a part falls off and you have to make an emergency replacement with a lower quality plate, and you eventually start to look like one of those cars with four different styles of fender.
(note: more applicable to scruffy looking gaurdian types, not so much for the jedi princesses, unless you want her to look like a real dirty girl)

An option to purchase different types of ammunition for blasters, from non-lethal to poison to buckshot, each type has a different effect on the life of the gun when used.

Any thoughts? (and before anyone whines, remember that realistically niether sabers or blasters last forever, the latter even more so)


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Old 12-19-2005, 01:11 AM   #2
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I don't know... it would take a very long time for all your weapons to burn out, and don't you think that the characters recharge/sharpen their weapons on the Ebon Hawk between worlds?

As for the duel with Sion, that is unlikely. Lightsaber blades have quite a bit of power, and I don't think they would burn out after a few hours.


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Old 12-19-2005, 01:34 AM   #3
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If the weapon is more powerful chances are it will degrade more quickly, ammunition eventually runs out, nothing material lasts forever.

I believe limited blaster ammunition and drainable lightsaber "charge" (add to it a power that lets you drain an enemies weapons or them yours) to be a useful strategic element.

And in the case of sion, you have 2 experienced combatants fighting an offensive battle (attack weighed over defense due to his natural defense) with most likely tricked-tuned-modded-souped up lightsabers (also probably using very different extra damage types) smashing into each other over the course of a drawn out battle, that would seem to drain them quickly.
You could also say that due to the various types of energy possibly involved in your saber (+5 electrical), it would drain more when used against certain energies or materials, and perhaps even recharge and absorb others.

I really don't see how you could argue against degrading armor either.

Also how do you know what weapons technology exists in the old republic, trilogy weapons seem to last a while, but that's 4000(?) years in the future, all we've seen in this period is unlimited everything (most likely due to programming simplicity).


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Old 12-19-2005, 01:48 AM   #4
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^Do you know how much extra work that would be?! Come on, you need to be a bit realistic. The devs aren't going to do this, it would be a waste of valuable time that could be spent on other things. I don't think you understand what the devs would be undertaking if they did this; Even if they had a lot of time, they would run out trying to do all this "plates hanging by a thread/lightsabers burning out" stuff.

And it doesn't really make any difference, it would be useless- maybe in a different game, but not a game like KotOR. We have gotten through the past two games without even remotely thinking about that, so why all of a sudden would it be really all that crucial?

And everybody would hate it, trust me. I bet that if that came out, 99.99% of people would be going "WTF!?" It probably the most hated thing in the game. So no, stick with what they have been doing, there isn't any need for all this extra pointless stuff.

And Emperor Devon is right, don't you think that maybe your party does some maintenance work every once in a while? And anyways, would they really need to? You never see Luke stopping in a saber fight and going "Hold on Vader, I need to change the power cell." They last a bit longer than that, come on.
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Old 12-19-2005, 02:52 AM   #5
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Don't play too many RPG's there RJM huh?

First, weapon/item maintinance is not necissary as it is assumed your characters take care of that on their own.

Second, no where in Star Wars do we see this anywhere in action.

Example: TPM both Obi-Wan and Qui-Gonn go through quite a bit, and their robes and sabers look as good at the end as they did at the beginning. The same can be said of Han and Luke in ANH... "Garbage Shute" included!

Third, Blasters are energy weapons and as such do not use Slugthrower types of ammunition, though most can be set to stun... but only in the Movie Era, we never see this in KotOR.

These are non-issues to me... sorry.


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Old 12-19-2005, 03:51 AM   #6
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My first reaction to this thread was "...why?". It doesn't seem like it would add anything to the game. I actually quite liked the comment by the stuck Mandalorian on Dxun when he says "when was the last time you ran out of ammo?".

I also agree with the others - weapon maintenance and whatnot would be done on the ship and when going through hyperspace.


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Old 12-19-2005, 04:49 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawke
Third, Blasters are energy weapons and as such do not use Slugthrower types of ammunition, though most can be set to stun... but only in the Movie Era, we never see this in KotOR.
Blasters do use ammunition, though.

Although it would be realistic if you could run out, I'm against it. You never see that happen in the movies, and it would get rather annoying. Besides, blasters carry so much ammunition that you never would have to worry about that, and lastly, it doesn't seem very RPG-ish to be able to run out of ammo.


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Old 12-19-2005, 05:17 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Blasters do use ammunition, though.
Nope.

Just re-checked the D20 Star Wars RPG Core Rule Book, all the Blasters have no Ammo or Shots listed catagories in the equipment area, so they indeed never run out of power, and are considered charged between games.

Now if we were talking D6 Star Wars RPG you would be correct.


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Old 12-19-2005, 08:25 AM   #9
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Wel, it could be cool if Kotor was a more...realt time game.
Also, limitations don't have to be essentialy bad.
Example: After batteling a Sith Lord, your lightsaber might be a bit damaged, so you'll get a dmg penealty of 2% or something, like in the WoW system.

Also, i would seriously wonder how Carth's armor could survive the battle with Bandon without any burned parts.

Repairing stuff could be a good thing. Would make repair usefull to have as skill.

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Old 12-19-2005, 09:21 AM   #10
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Another vote for no, I hated that crap in Diablo.
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Old 12-19-2005, 10:32 AM   #11
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Although I dissagree with implimenting these drastic changes in this next installment, had there been a "repair upon entry" to the Ebon Hawk or a degradation of armor and weapons in the first two games, it may have had some value.

However, IMO, this would take away from the gameplay format that we've grown accustom to in kotor and TSL.

I wouldn't want to spent hours travelling to three different worlds just to get a lightsaber power cell or something just as ridiculous.

I can see your point, but, I'm not sure it would work in this series.


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Old 12-19-2005, 11:18 AM   #12
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To be honest I don't think the idea would work because, ultimately it would take away from the gameplay and anything the devs could be doing to reduce the bugs in the system. After all in KOTOR and TSL, you regain health and force powers when you enter the Ebon Hawk. I think that is just fine.

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Old 12-19-2005, 01:41 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawke
Nope.
I was referring to Star Wars in the movies and EU.


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Old 12-19-2005, 01:48 PM   #14
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Well, Missile Launcher in kotor do have ammo limits (Mira's)
Though I don't think a lightsaber would need ammo restrictions... or everyone would do a Sith Tremor Sword.

Seriously though I don't think its a good idea.
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Old 12-19-2005, 04:43 PM   #15
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Well, then it could be an extra option for those who aren't afraid to scratch their precious toys

I don't see why you can't have choices for rule modifiers.

@Rob, All the more reason for a HL2 like production time instead of a three(-) year weakness.
And if they go with a Ngen setup "hanging from a thread would work pretty well (you can already do this in Gary's Mod)
Lightsabers burning out (if simplified) would work in a multiplied form of what's already used for shields (why they can run out and a blaster can't I'll never know).
Well, I want to do that maintenance, if I want to have the "option" to do more, why not, you don't have to turn it on.

@Redhawke, No I don't, they take forever so I only play what I like (the same with any title I choose regardless of genre) and I want that experience to be as deep as possible.
"first" YOU ARE YOUR CHARACTER!!! Isn't that the point of RPG???
"second" Because they only want to make a 2-3 hour movie, and they scrape for every second they can get, GL wants to show epic environments instead of soldiers reloading, but you can play a game for as long as you want. Also in star wars we see characters eat and yet they don't crap or throw up or anything, why don't their bowels burst? The ability to throw up in Breakdown was great, because so few games have ever even bothered to try.
A great series is constantly expanding and improving, if it's the exact same game in 10 years, I don't even want to play it, no matter how much I enjoy playing it the repettitive gameplay will drag the story down.
"example" That's called a plot hole (SW is loaded with them) Have you not heard my outcries against "youngling sweatshops". And many other filmakers out there do pay attention to it. AND you do can change your clothes in kotor (an improvement over the movies) I just want to take it to the next level.
"third" Maybe you just haven't seen them yet, not all weapons are energy, there are also darts, rockets, and many others, assuming that there is only one style of ammunition in the galaxy would get you PWND in a matter of seconds when a knife passes through the energy shield projected from your armband and stabs you in the back.
These are issues to me...sorry

@DW, I've never performed any of this maintenance "yet" (ammo in the field, maintenance at the ship or workbench)

@ED, How much ammunition does a blaster carry, use that number for the limitation, a large ammunition quantity can be balanced by larger groups of enemies.

@RH, Yeah, that might have been what they used, but I'm talking about a fictional universe in the form of a video game, and there will always be weapons that run out of ammunition "Matter or energy can't be created or destroyed, simply changed from one form to another" that matter or energy is being sent to another area, once you've used it all there won't be more until you've replaced it.
If that makes it more complicated it's because it is more complicated, and if we don't like complication then we might as well drop everything except attack and defend, who needs things like %chance to stun (I've never seen luke skywalker hit someone with a saber and the victim just stands ther all confused) maybe even get it down to the "WIN BUTTON" that's not the way it works

@Ztalker, YES!!! Someone who isn't stuck in their old ways

@Aratoeldar, then don't play Diablo, and set rules to basic(whatever title RH said) when you play KIII

@JM12, yeah, that's nice, but you can't really walk through a door, then go back through and have full health, I think a restore modifier would make more sense, your health restores at thrice the rate when in a safe area, and if your force can deplete (and blasters don't?) you should have to meditate or something to increase restoration.

@Cygnus, even something as simple as that would be nice, "you have X damage to armor, would you like it repaired for 5c before you leave, or repair it yourself"

@PoiuyW, then maybe a STS wouldn't have been a...
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Old 12-19-2005, 09:16 PM   #16
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No thanks. It would become annoying more than "interesting".

Features like these are about as "interesting" as having to eat, sleep and go to the bathroom.

Because let's face it, if we want to be realistic our heroes need to eat, sleep and use the washroom a few times a day.


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Old 12-19-2005, 10:56 PM   #17
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Another thing that also show's how much power a Lightsaber has is in the book "Shatter Point"

Mace Windu used a SINGLE Blaster Cartriage (yes, Blasters run out of ammo :S) and his lightsaber was recharged for DAYS on End. :S


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Old 12-19-2005, 11:37 PM   #18
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@IS, Why not include those as well
Like I said, it should be optional, like setting the difficulty, except that it's not the challenge but the experience details.

@TOM, So you're saying that the saber usually has a longer or shorter life?
Is the book "official"?
Why did he need the cartridge in the first place?


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Old 12-20-2005, 12:22 AM   #19
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Finally, a use for all that extra stuff in my inventory! I thought I'd never find a way to use up the 23 blaster rifles, 12 lightsabers, and 8 sets of armor (complete with more upgrades than items) that I seem to be always carrying around with me/finding inside cannocks.

Seriously, if you, say, are fighting a boss with a lightsaber, his is running out about roughly the same amount as yours, so your sabers would still be at roughly equal power throughout the fight.
You can play RPGs a couple ways: a. Make each player specify that they're repairing items, going and getting explicitly stated items for spells, spending x hours studying tomes, etc. b. Or, you can say to everyone at the start of the game, "we're going to assume that your character is going to use downtime to repair stuff, study, and acquire the necessary supplies for fighting and spells. The DM is going to charge you x credits periodically to reflect this, so we can concentrate on the story/action." Some DMs really get into the 'go and search for chamomile sprigs in order to do x spell'. A lot of DMs don't want to mess with that, though, because they find it distracting from the flow of the overall story itself. There's nothing wrong with either approach; however, Kotor's taken approach b for these 2 games, and switching to approach a for the third installment would be rather jarring. I tinker enough on the workbench, and while I don't mind doing that to create upgrades/better weapons and armor, I'd rather not spend a lot of time just doing repairs. I'll pass on watching barfing and other forms of elimination in Kotor, too. If I want that level of realism, I'll either read one of my journals or get a game that goes into gory detail. Besides, I get enough potty humor from my son.


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Old 12-20-2005, 12:28 AM   #20
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johnnymike - you say 'we can add it an an option so people who dont want to use it dont have to'. Thats beside the point. The fact is that this would be fairly hard to implement, and would take up a lot of hard drive space for what are really irrelevent features.

The KotOR games do not limit ammunition, or the amount of time armour will hold up etc - get over it.


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Old 12-20-2005, 12:36 AM   #21
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I read Shatterpoint (great book), and what happens is Mace Windu is starting to fight, when his lightsabers starts to lose its power.

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Old 12-20-2005, 12:40 AM   #22
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No. He starts to fight and his sabre fails, which is when he realises the cops who had picked him up had drained it.


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Old 12-20-2005, 12:52 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REDJOHHNYMIKE
Rob, All the more reason for a HL2 like production time instead of a three(-) year weakness.
While I want them to take time on KotOR III, I want to at least play it before I die... I don't know exactly how long it would take, but to impliment every single one of the ideas exactly as you mentioned...

Quote:
Originally Posted by REDJOHNNYMIKE
And in the case of sion, you have 2 experienced combatants fighting an offensive battle (attack weighed over defense due to his natural defense) with most likely tricked-tuned-modded-souped up lightsabers (also probably using very different extra damage types) smashing into each other over the course of a drawn out battle, that would seem to drain them quickly.
Lightsabers do not "burn out" during a ten-minute Sith Lord fight. I'm sorry, but they have a much longer lifespan. This isn't just a case of Lucas not wasting time in a movie by not putting the recharging of sabers in there, it is just that it doesn't happen. Lightsabers would last for weeks, or even months. Perhaps longer, you never really are told how long one could last, or, if one could even "burn out" to start with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by REDJOHNNYMIKE
Maybe you just haven't seen them yet, not all weapons are energy, there are also darts, rockets, and many others, assuming that there is only one style of ammunition in the galaxy would get you PWND in a matter of seconds when a knife passes through the energy shield projected from your armband and stabs you in the back.
But the ones that aren't energy (grenades, Mira's launcher, droid weapons) already have limited uses or ammunition. As for energy weapons, a good power pack could last for around 500 shots; I don't care how many enemies you face, it is going to be a long time before you get to that on a single blaster. Besides, as I said before, it is kind of a given that your party will maintain and recharge their weapons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by REDJOHNNYMIKE
The ability to throw up in Breakdown was great, because so few games have ever even bothered to try.
You could throw up? Thats not great, that is a waste of time. Sorry, but even if this isn't a 2-3 hour movie, there are some things that are nice options, and others that are complete wastes of valuable time and effort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by REDJOHNNYMIKE
An option to purchase different types of ammunition for blasters, from non-lethal to poison to buckshot, each type has a different effect on the life of the gun when used.
For one, different types of ammo don't work with certain weapons. Secondly, blasters do not have such things as "buckshot." They are laser weapons, they don't use slugthrower ammo.

Not only that, it is a fact that a sonic weapon does not use the same type of energy as does a Charric, for example. So what you are proposing means that there will be countless "blaster pistol ammo"/"sonic charges"/"ion cells" or others in the shops. You would also be including the options on every single weapon you had to be reloading that particular weapon, whether it is one out of your 13 blaster pistols, one out of your many ion weapons; it would be extremely complex, and would add a whole new worry for people.

If you remember some of the weapons, you could modify them so that they could do sonic damage/ion damage/etc. along with the regular blaster fire. How would that be possible? Are you going to put two ammo packs in the same dinky little blaster pistol? Not only would it be time consuming, making sure everything was loaded and worked, then having to go all the way back and do it all over again; what happened if you ran out of a certain type of ammo, would the blaster not work anymore? And finally, for the most important point, can a blaster even be drawing out of two ammo packs that are entirely different, and put them in the same "bolt?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by REDJOHNNYMIKE
and if your force can deplete (and blasters don't?) you should have to meditate or something to increase restoration.
Riiiight.... So that is what Kreia was doing every time she was meditating or resting- she was restoring force points! It just doesn't work that way, RJM, and it hasn't worked that way in the previous two games. The force isn't something that you "pull out of a large tank" so to speak, there is no such thing as "filling yourself up with force." The force is something that resides in the person, and surrounds them; It isn't some kind of ammo that Jedi carry with them around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by REDJOHNNYMIKE
I really don't see how you could argue against degrading armor either.
Because it is too much to put into the game. Ok, you say that "realistically", armor degrades, and you should have to repair it after hard fights. Yeah, and "realistically", one small plasma grenade should blow your whole team to bits, no matter how leveled up you are .

It doesn't matter if it is just an option, 3/4 of people will never use it. Do you really think the devs will put time and effort into something like this that only a quarter of people will use, or understand?

Not to mention that half of it just doesn't apply in Star Wars, of course.
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Old 12-20-2005, 01:21 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REDJOHNNYMIKE
I don't see why you can't have choices for rule modifiers.
Hence my question RJM, you would have to understand the RPG a little better to understand why this type of stuff is not bothered with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by REDJOHNNYMIKE
Everyone who's given an opinion about what they don't like hasn't discussed the ability for it to be optional, if it was an option would your free will shut off and force you to use it?
They don't fit into the scope of the D20 rules, even the optional ones, so they will not be in a KotOR game, simple as that... thanks for playing!


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Old 12-20-2005, 01:39 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Windu
No. He starts to fight and his sabre fails, which is when he realises the cops who had picked him up had drained it.
That's what I said.

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Old 12-20-2005, 08:48 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawke
Nope.

Just re-checked the D20 Star Wars RPG Core Rule Book, all the Blasters have no Ammo or Shots listed catagories in the equipment area, so they indeed never run out of power, and are considered charged between games.
IIRC there are optional rules to cover this though. They just felt that having hard rules would slow things down, even though they technically do run on power packs.

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Old 12-20-2005, 10:07 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by REDJOHNNYMIKE
@IS, Why not include those as well
Like I said, it should be optional, like setting the difficulty, except that it's not the challenge but the experience details.

@TOM, So you're saying that the saber usually has a longer or shorter life?
Is the book "official"?
Why did he need the cartridge in the first place?
\

Like I said, you're barking up the wrong tree.
Had these gameplay options been apart of the original game experience, I wouldn't see a problem implimenting or upgrading them by now.

BUT, they weren't, and the gameplay experience has been established to a degree. These additions to gameplay, IMO, would alter the experience to a degree that would make it seem to be a totally different game altogether.

I can understand your point, however you are two games too late.


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Old 12-20-2005, 01:59 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by REDJOHNNYMIKE
@IS, Why not include those as well
Like I said, it should be optional, like setting the difficulty, except that it's not the challenge but the experience details.
Because of the logistics of implimenting them. What you're asking is for the developers to basically waste time and money on features that most of the gamers wouldn't even use. When games are being made and they have to adhere to a strict schedule, useless features that most people would "turn off" are the first things to go. And I'm sure that lightsabers running out of energy would fit that category because the vast majority of people wouldn't want to micromanage their lightsabers.


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Old 12-20-2005, 09:53 PM   #29
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No. It just seems like another thing to worry about, and KOTOR is too short for it to matter. Might be a good idea for a mod, RJM.


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Old 12-20-2005, 10:30 PM   #30
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Yeah, it seems like some of the ideas are more for a mod than anything, like wielding two saberstaffs, having dual colored saberstaffs (those two already have been), having a different Ebon Hawk paint scheme, replacing T3 and HK, etc.

Except in the case of this one, I doubt that anyone even could do this. Even if they were willing to put in the time, I don't know if it would be possible.
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Old 12-20-2005, 10:33 PM   #31
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What I see is, there are many levels of role playing...

Well technically you can make eating a must-do function in the game, so did going to the shower room... but how much fun would there be?

If you mean by having to "recharge" weapons back in the ship as a function I can sort of understand, but it gets annoying really fast, unless you have a good "recharge all" interface or something...

Speaking of which you should also have a storage locker...

Now, trying to give different clips for different guns and different ammo, and a hardness factor to repaire and a... it would get REALLY annoying...

Remember, our "gametime" is not going 1:1 with the "realtime" ... and spending half an hour of maintinance time just recharging stuff in the game is just... boring...

Its like making you wait a few hours for each flight trip when you play... all the while you have to play "the sims" with your kotor character, feeding them, getting them to shower, and try not to kill them while they are cooking, and avoid being found while cheating with the muscular wookie...

As funny as that may sound, it is not a kotor game. Its just another type of thing. If you want a game like that for kotor, feel free to mod though, but making official stuff like that is annoying to say the least.
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Old 12-20-2005, 10:42 PM   #32
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I'd quote all of that for emphasis, but its too big.
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Old 12-20-2005, 11:12 PM   #33
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im srry but hell no what would be the point would only waste time and energy looking for new types of charges for your weapons


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Old 12-21-2005, 12:49 PM   #34
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Agree there

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Old 12-22-2005, 01:33 AM   #35
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@Jae, "overloaded inv" That's part of the reason for this, without some kind of "using them up" you just stockpile everything, or turn them into more credits than you'll ever use, if your blaster rifle overloads (say by using Power Blast 15 times in a row) that basic blaster pistol you just picked off a corpse becomes worth more than a computer spike.
And as for the rest, yeah some of that could be boring, but some could be entertaining for some people.

@RQD, I'd wait about 5 years for it, that would give them time to...
A. Fix most of the bugs, make the new story, add new features, apply finishing touches,
B. Use newer liscensed software which already works well, make a new story, add features from games that already use software, apply finishing touches.
Either way seems all right to me, as long as the game keeps growing. A game doesn't evolve, it's the product of work and imagination, and if that starts to slow down it will just be less than it could've been.
If you want a good example of rushed product, go play TSL again.

If you are "never really told" then it's still entirely probable, and a believable integrateble tactical strategy implement, combat no matter what you do is just boring, having weapons that actually deplete energy increases the intensity.
The only times that combat in kotor is truly satisfying is during the few bossfights if you're a little underleveled and it comes right down to who's going to have the last hitpoint. It's not that it's to easy (there are hardcore mods) but that's still to limited with a lack of intensity.

"non energy" The reason you're half right there is due to a serious lack of large scale combat in kotor, if it wasn't just 6 rep soldiers vs 8 sith every once in a while you'd actually use those shots. Limit a blaster rifle cartridge to 500 shots and increase the number of enemies to balance the weapons. I don't remember exactly, but I believe the animation for the blaster rifle has three shots (only one of which hits)? then figure out how many of those attacks it actually takes to bring a target down, then when you factor in attacks and modifiers which allow for more fire per turn, it starts to stack up. Even if they don't make larger areas with more enemies on screen, there should be a believable way of introducing more enemies after a first wave so you don't just force jump and decapitate the entire group (3) collect loot and be done with the area.

"ammo" An interesting point, We've been using words like "blaster" simply to reffer to a gun in a general sense (I admit to that) So what we need is more distinction between individual weapons, instead having each weapon size class (for lack of a better word) blaster, rifle, carbine, etc. be used for one type of ammunition there should be distinctions between wether the pistol is a blaster pistol (and what exact type of energy it fires, and how it's converted from a stored to fired state) or a chemical based massthrower pistol (and what types of ammunition [slug, shot], and what force is used to drive them [gunpowder]) or wither a rifle emits superheated gas, focused light, or propels a small mass.
Just for the record, what is the official starting ammunition and final energy state of whatever the gold standard blaster pistol is, please state any other types you know of? I haven't read a SW encyclopedia since I was younger, I think it was gas based, but I'm not sure.

"force" Except that you do "pull it out of a tank" you can pull off more force junk than yoda and the emperor combined and it comes right back, and you can equip an item to most inventory slots which will "pull it out of a tank" even faster.
Personally I think it would make more sense to have most of the higher level powers become much more difficult to use, and more rare, to make them worth more.

Yes, a plasma grenade should do more realistic damage, and a thermal detonator should be the priceless "Holy Handgrenade" that it really is

I'm a dev, and I have the option of hiring some extra people to make my game appeal to a 25% larger market? How many kotor games have been sold? And how many more might have been sold if they'd inlcuded extra optional features to get an extra 25% who are into deeper combat?


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Old 12-22-2005, 05:27 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REDJOHNNYMIKE
I'm a dev, and I have the option of hiring some extra people to make my game appeal to a 25% larger market? How many kotor games have been sold? And how many more might have been sold if they'd inlcuded extra optional features to get an extra 25% who are into deeper combat?
Care to explain where you got your 25% figure from? Frankly, I doubt someone who is looking at the game will say
"Hmmm, new Force Powers, new Story, more weapons but I'm not sure if I should buy it. Oh hey, wait, there are annoyingly boring additions like replacing ammo, I have to get it now!"


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Old 12-22-2005, 11:36 AM   #37
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Agrees with Windu

First of all it is debatable whether or not lightsabers can run out of energy. It has never been stated in the movies that they do. I have also seen several power sources mentioned for the lightsaber. One of wich is the Force. Mostly lightsaber never run out of energy in the games. for example JK, limited ammo, but unlimited lightsaber use. Battlefront 2, limited ammo (with exceptions) but the lightsaber never runs out.

About the other weapons

Why wouldn't a blaster be able to recharge itself? They do in Battlefront sometimes. As well as in other SW games, ranged weapons do recharge themselves, though these are used in bigger things (X-wings and stuff) it would be possible for smaller things as well. An X-wing may have a bigger generator, but the guns also require more energy, and an X-wing also has shields to maintain, engines, life support, targeting computer. Also energy doesn't have any weight. Unless you want to take Uranium with you for your blaster. Maybe you should get radiation sickness after a while as well?

If it's about realism, maybe it would be a good idea to have headaches, or you can die after dinner, because the food has gone bad. Or you suffer from overweight. Wait, I just had a brilliant idea, medpacks won't do you much good, you have to go see a medic to get your wounds healed. When in the hospital with serious injuries, you have to wait 6 months (when playing 24 hours a day), because you're in the hospital for those 6 months. Or what about getting killed in a speeder accident. And BTW saving isn't real either, so what about if you die you have to begin all over again.

About the shields, I don't like them the way they are either, I would like to see them the way they are in most RTS games. An added set of HP slowly regenerating over time.

About the armor, I would like to see it damage absorbing, not damage preventing (or preventing damage through absorbing it).
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Old 12-22-2005, 04:52 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REDJOHNNYMIKE
And as for the rest, yeah some of that could be boring, but some could be entertaining for some people.
I think "some" should be turned into "one." I'm serious, you're the only one who thinks this is a good idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by REDJOHNNYMIKE
I'd wait about 5 years for it, that would give them time to...
You are absolutely nuts. I'm sorry, but you are. 5 whole years!? I am not waiting five years for one game to come out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by REDJOHNNYMIKE
"non energy" The reason you're half right there is due to a serious lack of large scale combat in kotor, if it wasn't just 6 rep soldiers vs 8 sith every once in a while you'd actually use those shots.
Exactly. A lot of KotOR has no combat at all, although that is mainly what it is. And because 1) you aren't some soldier participating in large battles all the time, and 2) it is a RPG, not a FPS/

Quote:
Originally Posted by REDJOHNNYMIKE
Limit a blaster rifle cartridge to 500 shots and increase the number of enemies to balance the weapons. I don't remember exactly, but I believe the animation for the blaster rifle has three shots (only one of which hits)? then figure out how many of those attacks it actually takes to bring a target down, then when you factor in attacks and modifiers which allow for more fire per turn, it starts to stack up.
For one thing, because this is an RPG, those "three shots" just count as one, by the way. Now, keeping that in mind, lets look at a sample situation. I am playing as Mira on Nar Shaddaa against the Ubese. I have dual pistols with rapid shot. Now, it mostly takes me three rounds to take down a Ubese. With Rapid Shot, that means I am shooting two shots per round, for a total of six shots per Ubese. My other pistol is using three shots per Ubese, since Rapid Shot doesn't give it an extra attack.

Now, at that rate, it would take around 83 Ubese to run out of ammo on my first pistol. Now, taking into acount that my second pistol is now doing all the work, about nine shots per Ubese on the one pistol I have now. Those first 83 Ubese have gotten the power pack (on the second pistol) down to 251 shots out of 500 (83x3=249). Now, divide 251 by 9, and you have about 27-28 more Ubese that you can take on. Now, the grand total is 111 Ubese for 2 Blaster Pistols. You could play through that section of Nar Shaddaa about five times and not get to that amount.

So, adding this all to the increasing amount of damage your pistols can do, and how much better Mira can get, (therefore decreasing the amount of shots used) you could probably go through several planets without having to buy blaster packs once, especially since you can get simple blasters fairly easy.

In fact, that brings up another point. The amount of ranged weapons you get is enormous by the end of the game, and besides, a lot of my characters use melee weapons instead, except for a few. So to go through all that work of putting little "324/500" blaster ammo indicaters, and keeping track of it all, along with buying the exact type of ammo for it is a waste of time; You might not even need it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by REDJOHNNYMIKE
Except that you do "pull it out of a tank" you can pull off more force junk than yoda and the emperor combined and it comes right back, and you can equip an item to most inventory slots which will "pull it out of a tank" even faster.
Not according to Yoda. He says that The Force is a energy field that surrounds us and lives in us, so it is not "ammo" that you have to draw out of this big pool of Force. The Force is something that inhabits you and surrounds you, always. From what you were saying, you said that the Force was some limited "ammo" that you had, and then when you used it all, you had to go get some more; It doesn't work that way.

The Force will be with you...Always. - Obi-Wan Kenobi

Quote:
Originally Posted by REDJOHNNYMIKE
Yes, a plasma grenade should do more realistic damage, and a thermal detonator should be the priceless "Holy Handgrenade" that it really is
So a thermal detonater and plasma grenades are now insta-kill weapons (or close), as it "realistically" would be. Some guy is playing KotOR III, and he meets a group of Sith troopers with an "elite grenadier." His character is pretty good, so he really isn't worried about anything, then all of a sudden the grenadier throws a plasma grenade. BOOM! All of a sudden he sees the "Your whole party is down" message and goes "What the ****!?!? It was just a plasma grenade, I played the other games and one wouldn't kill me instantly!" Yeah, that would be great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by REDJOHNNYMIKE
If you are "never really told" then it's still entirely probable, and a believable integrateble tactical strategy implement, combat no matter what you do is just boring, having weapons that actually deplete energy increases the intensity.
First off, I wasn't saying "never really told if it could last in a Sith Lord fight", I was saying "a lightsaber could last indefinitely, we are never really told an exact amount of how long it could last." Watch AotC. Obi-Wan and Anakin, facing off against thousands of battle droids and geonosians, then goes on to fight with a Sith Lord in a heated fight. Do their sabers buzz and sparkle and go out? No.

Watch RotS. Obi-Wan goes against thousands of battle droids and Separitists, and ends up going against the quadruple wielding Grievous, then chases him on a Utaupau beast. He ends up falling to the water far below and yet at the end, does his saber buzz and sparkle and go out? No.

What I was saying, is, lightsabers are built to last for a very, very long time. They are a Jedi's weapon/tool, and often Jedi only have their robes and lightsabers during some missions they undertake on Outer Rim planets, so obviously they would be built to last. Sabers aren't cellphones; Jedi don't carry chargers that hook up to a power conduit to plug into their saber.

Quote:
Originally Posted by REDJOHNNYMIKE
I'm a dev, and I have the option of hiring some extra people to make my game appeal to a 25% larger market?
Did you forget a period between the 2 and the 5? I think you were meaning 2.5%. RJM, look around you- this idea is definitely not popular.

If KotOR was an FPS, I would say absolutely. I have JA, and yeah, it does add a whole new aspect with limited ammo. But, lets compare the two. JA has a total of around 9 or 10 ranged weapons- and there are about 2-3 each that run off the same ammo. Now, look at KotOR. Countless weapons, I'm not even going to try and count. Would 100+ be a good guess for ranged weapons, or maybe even more? And most of them are all different; As I said before, a Charric is different than a blaster pistol, a bowcaster is different than a sonic blaster, and a ion weapon is different than a disruptor rifle. And there are many, many of each in the KotOR universe.

Now, talk about armor. Same exact applies for armor, about the same ratio too- JA doesn't really have any armor, just the clothes that you pick at the beginning. A lot of other FPS are the same, you don't go around and pick up 20+ different types of armor, upgrade them in-game, and use all the different types of them in the game.

So, you need to understand that this is a very complex and detailed RPG, not, repeat not, an FPS.
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