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Old 01-05-2006, 09:32 PM   #1
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Saber system suggestions

I was going to wait until I could retrieve my old ideas from the MB site, but I just realized that my ideas have changed with my new found understanding of the new system.

First off, great job on the saber throw, changing red style to unlimited chaining (now its actually fun to use!), and making fakes much easier. I will say that the styles still do not move at the same speed though (red and purple still have a longer wined up), which is fine as long as the slower styles have some kind of advantage over the quicker (such as bigger reach, power, or greater defense).

The way I picture this saber system achieving ultimate greatness is by increasing the time at which saber "volleying" takes place without stuns, knockdowns, and disarms (which still seem to happen too often, sadly). I've found ways of getting into volleys with TABBOTS and they look spectacular and are intense!! This volleying usually happens when I hold down attack and attack in different directions as the TABBOT does the same thing and it takes at least a second or two of saber collisons before one of use gets stunned, knocked down, or disarmed.

In order to increase saber volleying I have a few suggestions:

1. prohibit stuns until after the opponents dodge/block meter is below the halfway point. Since the dodge meter all ready works as a block meter, this should make for some great volleys.

2. prohibit disarms and knockdowns until the force point meter is below 40 or 50. This is more realistic because a real jedi wouldn't lose their saber or get knocked down at full strength. It would also be a good indicator of what the opponent is low on (dodge or fp meter wise) and increase general volleying.

3. While both fighter's meters are high, what use to stun, knockdown, or disarm will now only lower the reciever's dodge meter until it is past the half way point. The person who has attacked or defended correctly will not lose any dodge points for his action. I hope this explains the logic of the upper two suggestions sufficiently.

4. I think it would also be cool to promote defending with an attack (a.k.a. swing blocking) by lowering the dodge points lost in moving the wrong way in defending or attacking (that would normally get you stunned, disarmed, or knocked down in this system) if that person is also in the middle of a swing. The only problem with this, is that it puts slower styles at a disadvantage so I would suggest uping their defense or power.

I remember from our MB converation that you made the stuns primarly to deal with noobs, which was a good idea but they just happen too often. Under my suggestions, a noob would still get destoryed by anyone who knows what their doing, but not before the noob witnesses the spectacular potential of volleying and other mechanics of this system in general (and thus, make him want to really learn it well)

I also would suggest bringing back katas (wait!!!!! he me out!!! LOL) but they will disarm the user unless the defender has less than 25 fp. Thus, they would be only used as finishing moves!!!

I also think that one of the saber styles should be balanced for usage only for fight two or more people. I don't know how this would be done, but I'm sure you could think of some way.

Lastly, in order for these suggestions to work, the fp gain would have to anyways be at deflaut or higher, otherwise players will run out of fp too quickly.

Hopefully you will find these suggestions more in tuned with you saber system. I look forward to your comments.

By the way Razor, you mentioned you were self taught at all this coding stuff. How did you go about doing that?


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UDM Quote: in singapore, gangsters are...skinny jacka**es who think they can 0wn you. they hurl insults at u, and then lose in a fight. n00bs

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Old 01-06-2006, 06:30 PM   #2
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hmmmm, I'm starting to like your suggestions about the volleying. However, I'm a bit worried about how the attacker's DP will be drained in this situation. It seems to me that attacker DP should be drained from successfully parrying on the defender's part. However, it's going to be tricky to balance the DP drain enough to make defending/attacking balanced.

Along those lines, I don't really think that "swing blocking" will work for two reasons. First off, the action is too fast for players to be able to fully handle, this is the same reason why manual blocking wasn't much of a success. Secondly, I'm not really sure there's a way to differ between a normal attack and a "swing block". Again, we don't want to overpower the attackers vs the defenders.

As for katas, you make a good arguement, but I was kind of hoping to come up with something different for the use of the attack + altattack button combo. Maybe additional melee strikes or special finishing moves.

Finally, as for self-teaching, I did take several coding classes before getting into modding, but I had to learn all about modding myself. It's really just a matter of understanding the basics of coding, and then just diving into the code.


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Old 01-06-2006, 08:54 PM   #3
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hmmmm, I'm starting to like your suggestions about the volleying. However, I'm a bit worried about how the attacker's DP will be drained in this situation. It seems to me that attacker DP should be drained from successfully parrying on the defender's part. However, it's going to be tricky to balance the DP drain enough to make defending/attacking balanced.
I'm glad you like the suggestion, but I see how it might be difficult to balance. Although I still think its worth a shot for the sake of theatrics and realism of the system.

I agree that the attackers DP should be drained from being successfully parried, but the defender should still lose DP if he does not parry the attack in the right direction. A successful attack or defense should cause the same amount of DP loss.

One way to make the it more obvious (and perhaps balanced) as to who successfully attacked and defended (without stopping the action) would be to put a 1/4 second delay in the losers drawback of his block or attack. The loser who pause in what ever way you decide and only be able to block in that pause without being able to attack.

For example: if and attacker gets parried by a defender, the attackers saber would either freeze where it was parried or pull back in slow motion for 1/4-1/3 of a second and for that short time period the attacker wouldn't be able to swing again. This may give the defender just enough time to start to start his attack first before the former attacker can start his again. It would be just like a Micro-stun without really stopping the action! On the other hand, a defender who unsuccessfully parried an attack (moved in the wrong direction) would be would also pause and be unable to attack for that 1/4-1/3 second. The pause should only be long enough person who successfully parried or attacked to start the next swing first.

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Along those lines, I don't really think that "swing blocking" will work for two reasons. First off, the action is too fast for players to be able to fully handle, this is the same reason why manual blocking wasn't much of a success. Secondly, I'm not really sure there's a way to differ between a normal attack and a "swing block". Again, we don't want to overpower the attackers vs the defenders.
Your right. However, I wouldn't give up on swing blocking too easily (it did work in MB {even though their system is different}). I noticed that parrying can still take place even while I'm swing today when I was fighting TABBOTs (I dont know, maybe it was a bug).

I just thought of a way to include swing blocking and distinguish between attacking and defending while using it. First, Make it so that two people attacking eachother (or holding down attack) at the same time don't lose any DP and all the attacks are auto blocked with the swings.

While the sabers are both attacking, in order to successfully parry while swinging, one of the saberists will press ALT ATTACK and the correct parry direction (to the attackers swing) to become the defender and make the attacker pause and lose DP.

If a saberist presses the press ALT attack while swinging and moves in the wrong to the attackers swing, that saberist will get paused and lose DP. The DP penalties for this type of parrying or miss parrying should be less than the regular way (the way I listed for the first quote).

In this fashion, the "fake" button also becomes a parry button in a swing. It would probably make doing regular fakes a little more dangerous, but their dangerous to do in real life too more or less. The point of these ideas is to teach the player to watch the other players saber even in an intense volley. It might seem fast at first, but I think the good player will start to use the "swing block/parrying" more often once they get use to it because it looks cooler and saves their DP from going down too quickly.

I'm sure this would be a pain to code, but it would create the kind of cinematic "volleys" we've been talking about and make it really fun to watch.

Quote:
As for katas, you make a good arguement, but I was kind of hoping to come up with something different for the use of the attack + altattack button combo. Maybe additional melee strikes or special finishing moves.
Good idea. I won't miss them anyway! LOL! Although the saber trailing in them effect might be useful for eventually creating slower power swings of some kind, but your guess is as good as mine as to how that could be done and balanced.

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Finally, as for self-teaching, I did take several coding classes before getting into modding, but I had to learn all about modding myself. It's really just a matter of understanding the basics of coding, and then just diving into the code.
Wow. Hmm, just Knowing the basics, huh. Do you think I could learn it from a web tutorial or reading C for Dummies! lol. Thats probably the only way I'll learn! Any suggestions on a good tutorial website or websites?


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UDM Quote: in singapore, gangsters are...skinny jacka**es who think they can 0wn you. they hurl insults at u, and then lose in a fight. n00bs

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Old 01-11-2006, 03:24 AM   #4
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Sorry, I guess I forgot to respond to this thread.

Anyway, as for swing parrying, I see two problems:
1. Since the player is controlling the direction of attack, he's going to know which way he'd need to move to be able to move into an attack. In addition, pure saber-on-saber impacts have a bit more irradic impact positions than when doing saber defense.
2. I'd be worried that this would over balance the game in the favor of attack. I suppose a swing parry could be less likely to successfully parry vs a purely defensive. As such, I think it would end up complicating things more than the value of new feature.

And on to "new" business
1. After play testing with humans a bit more, we need to consider the player movement speeds. I noticed that it's too easy/unrealistic in the way that defending/lossing players can dart out of the way by running backwards. The same problem applies to gunners. As such, I'm thinking that a wise course of action would be to lower the movement speed of backwards running and pure (IE totally left/right) strafing. A real person isn't able to run sideways or backwards THAT much faster than they can walk quickly backwards/strafe.


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Old 01-11-2006, 04:21 AM   #5
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I see the logic in the problems you stated for the swing parrying idea.

I will probably still try to use swings as blocks in my own fighting style because It doesnt cost any dp and it confuses that heck out of human opponents! lol. Who knows, if I can figure out how to code, I might try adding the suggestion myself just to see if it works or not.

I do hope you keep my first Idea about longer volleying by prohibiting stuns until 50% dp or so and knockdowns and disarms until under maybe 40 fp. As long as a successful attack and a successful defense cause the same amount of dp loss, it should be balanced. I also think the slight delay idea (my second post) that I put after it will be a good one too go with it. If you have a better idea on how this type of volleying could take place, I'd love to hear it. I think that anything that would keep the action alive with out the overly prevailent stuns will make few people I've talked to who don't like this system give it another chance.

Your idea about making running backwards slower is a great idea especially with this combat system. It will keep saber combat in close proximity and it won't be a death sentence for gunners because they still have the dodge meter. Good Thinkin. I love the smile face options here! lol

As far as saberists dealing with gunners, I might also suggest making an anti-gunner saber key that allows saberists to run and attack without stopping or using force power. The catch with this would be if when using this anti-gunner saber style, if a saber hits you or you hit a saber with your saber, you get disarmed!


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Old 01-11-2006, 05:28 AM   #6
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I am planning on trying your volley related suggestions. Don't worry.

As for an anti-gunner style, it's a bit unnessicary since players can already run and attack without penalty as mishaps only occur during saber-on-saber impacts.


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Old 01-11-2006, 03:05 PM   #7
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Hooray!! This is worthy of another Strongbad dance!

About that last suggestion, I was mainly worried about force drain since it is still used in swinging and If I fought a few gunners, I might not have any force power left for fighting someone with a saber (kind of like what happened when I tried to fight you after fighting that gunner that one time). Of course this is only a problem when fp gain is set more slowly than default like it is on fridays usually. It probably wouldn't be a problem otherwise. And the mishaps from this suggestion would only happen on saber contact so people wouldn't be able to swing spam with no fp loss when fighting another saberist.

Your previous suggestion about slower running backward would also solve this problem mostly, my suggestion is only if you felt it wasn't enough to kill good gunners. I'm still think in MB mode when it comes to fighting gunners so it probably isn;t needed too badly. I often forget that jedi can use guns in this mod!


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Old 01-11-2006, 03:37 PM   #8
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Hmmm, I'm not sure if it's a problem or not since a player's FP reserve is very large. In theory, you can make 100 swings while running before you run out of fatigue. We'll have to wait and see. Remember that the gunners may or may not have a lot of Dodge based on their current skill level (not currently implimented).


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Old 01-12-2006, 02:10 AM   #9
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Ok, I'll mess around with it some more on friday and try to figure out why I lost so much fp from fighting gunners with a saber. It could be the slower fp gain you have set there too. Correct me if I'm wrong, but with that lower fp gain setting, doesn't fp go down from running too with that setting?


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Old 01-12-2006, 03:00 AM   #10
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Actually FP doesn't go down from running, which was a compromise that I made with a previous design partner. Good call ytmh!


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Old 01-12-2006, 05:15 AM   #11
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Ok, I've implimented the volley suggestions you made so that players do a slow bounce instead of a stun @ 50+ DP and instead of a knockdown @ 50+ FP.

This does dramatically change the pacing of the battle as the saber blows attack/defense transition are much faster. I also like the fact that you can get a good idea of how much DP/FP your opponent has based on which mishaps occur to him. Good so far.

However, the saber battles do seem to be over much faster since the action is faster. My guess is that the fights last a little bit longer than MB2 saber battles, but are shorter than the previous versions of Enhanced. As such, I think we might need to increase the DP/FP reserve size, decrease DP/FP costs, or maybe both.

Anyway, time permitting, I'll release a new version of Enhanced including all the latest improvements for weekly Enhanced run on the server this friday.


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Old 01-12-2006, 07:13 PM   #12
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Wow, that was fast! Based on what I have learned of coding so far, I figured it wouldn't take too long (probably a few variable switches and some new or modified boolian formulas that I couldn't figure out right now to save my life! LOL). Good job, I can hardly wait to try it.

Quote:
However, the saber battles do seem to be over much faster since the action is faster. My guess is that the fights last a little bit longer than MB2 saber battles, but are shorter than the previous versions of Enhanced. As such, I think we might need to increase the DP/FP reserve size, decrease DP/FP costs, or maybe both.
Believe it or not, I was thinking the exact same thing when I was visualizing this! But I think forgot mention it before in my writing; I'll have to re-read it. I was worried about the length of the dual and how quickly the the block points would get to below 50. I think both the DP/FP point values should be modified, but use your best judgment on how much since you have immediate access to the changed gameplay and we'll (the game players) give our opinions or look for potential problems after the next realize on friday.

Also, keep in mind that once players start getting good at your saber system, the duals will be extended because of the the back and forth hit trading. While a fight with a noob on MB can last hardly any time 3-10 seconds, two vets fighting can take 1-4 minutes. I had a 3 minute long fight with a MB staff member a few nights ago.

You are on your way to creating a truly KILLER saber system and I hope Raven takes notice of what a good saber system really is, based on your's and MB's.

I think one of the next steps to take down the road will be to create a few new difficult to do exploits within the saber combat and give a few extra options of what to do and how to fight. I'll keep my imagination open.

Much further down the road, I think there should be effort put forth to make the five+ primary saber combat styles have characteristics of the 7+ known saber styles in starwars "folklore."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightsaber_combat

This could be done by changing certain values in attack, defense, jumping, singlesaberstaff, sabersaberdual, etc. It may also require a few animation changes in certain styles for the sake of distintiveness. You could probably use parts of Moviestances 2.0 and the theatrics animation mod for ForcemodIII to save some time with animations.

....and yes this would be alot of work and brain storming on how to keep all the styles balanced. Heck, if you really wanted to set your self apart from everybody (including ForcemodIII because they have seven styles for single) trying to make a version of ALL these saber styles on the link above!!! Wow what a work load that would be.

The reason I suggest this idea is because there have been many, MANY threads at the MB site asking for this and discussing this, and the MB staff doesn't seem to want to do it (because the the work involved and their lack of coders {last time I checked}) Doing this may give everyone (who is use to a certain sabersystem, base or MB wise, and doesn't like change) more incentive to try your system.


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Old 01-12-2006, 07:35 PM   #13
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Well, I'll admit up front that I'm not a fan of the 7 forms theory of lightsaber combat. I personally think that it was invented simply to ease the mind of some fans that think that lightsaber combat is more a formalized martial art like real world stuff.

Instead, I feel that lightsaber combat is more a personal reflection of a jedi's connection to the Force. This seems to be reflected in the movies more than the 7 forms theory.

However, I agree that the individual styles should have slightly different attributes to them to make them be bit different and more realistic. I'm open to suggestions.


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Old 01-12-2006, 08:10 PM   #14
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Wow, that was a quick response. I agree that it probably was as you say:

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to ease the mind of some fans that think that lightsaber combat is more a formalized martial art like real world stuff.
But it still is a very popular concept amount JA and Knights of the old public players.

Anyways, I'll keep thinking about possibilities on how they can be different. But I did have one quick idea that is not very well thought out yet. Make two different styles of each of the 5 forms, one based on offense and the other on defense. The offense version would be a little quicker in swings, have a few extra flips in the swing animations and have less DP but maybe more FP. The defensive version would be a little bit slower, more DP, and normal animations. Naturally, both versions red and desanns styles would be slower and stronger than both versions of yellow, blue and tavions.

Also, allow each player to only choose 3 or 4 of these styles!!! This would allow for specialization among players and balance issues could be excused by bad choice of forms! lol. Heck, you could even create a saber only game mode or a special edition to holocron where you can earn extra styles to use in a particular game.

As far as changing animations for the quicker versions, there are plenty of animation replacements to choose from that are already apart of other mods to make the quicker style look cool. For example:

http://www.pcgamemods.com/mod/13578.html

Check out the animation replacement for tavions style for this when you have time (if you already haven't). It is one of my all time favorites because it remains me on fencing and is unique in that fashion.

Like I said, I haven't given too much that to this particular idea yet so let me know what you think or how possible it is. I'm too tired to think right now! lol. Nap time.


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Old 01-12-2006, 08:16 PM   #15
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I remember discussing the possibility of having a Offensive/Defensive mode to the saber styles but I think we dropped it after we realized that we were over complicating the system when we could have that back/forth action without needing seperate modes.

As for most animation mods, they're kind of hacky as they don't have all the proper transitions animations.


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Old 01-12-2006, 09:06 PM   #16
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Hmmm, actually, the current "issue" appears to been when two players just come at each other swinging like mad men. Right now, attack-on-attack mishaps are pretty rare so they can just spam attack each other for quite a while. I don't think that's really what we want but I'm not sure what to do about it yet. My guess is that we're going to have to add much larger mishaps to start the initial back/forth position.


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Old 01-12-2006, 10:42 PM   #17
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I remember discussing the possibility of having a Offensive/Defensive mode to the saber styles but I think we dropped it after we realized that we were over complicating the system when we could have that back/forth action without needing seperate modes.

As for most animation mods, they're kind of hacky as they don't have all the proper transitions animations.
Interesting, I just figured some people would want the option of their favorite style being more offensive or defensive but it would make things more complicated.

And youre right about those animation mods being buggy and I now think I recall Keshire not liking them because they arent very well done in that fashion. Most of them are just replacements using pre-existing animations and they do lack alot of transitions. They are still fut o use on ocasion though, I still use Moviestances 2.0 for movie battles.

Quote:
Hmmm, actually, the current "issue" appears to been when two players just come at each other swinging like mad men. Right now, attack-on-attack mishaps are pretty rare so they can just spam attack each other for quite a while. I don't think that's really what we want but I'm not sure what to do about it yet. My guess is that we're going to have to add much larger mishaps to start the initial back/forth position.
Hmmmm, are these testers familiar with how the saber system works really well? If they are, they are probably thinking very quickly and trying to figureout and what direction to move into. Remember, this is very new to them and no one's a pro yet. They could also just like the way the constant swinging and defending looks (like I am with a TAB BOT) and getting caught up in the moment because of how movielike it looks compard to other systems. In the movies, the speed at which they swing at eachother could also be considered spamming but they are really thinking very fast, just like in this system.

I say, make sure they know the rules of the saber system and give it more time for them to learn how to fight with the changes. Or let me at em!!!! I'll show them how to really fight OJP style!!! LOL.

As far as options are concerned, I suppose you could implement some kind of power swing that would disarm a swing spammer once they start getting below a certain FP level because they would get low on it after too many swings.

Wait, I've got it! Male the penalty for getting hit while trying to kick less! If a person gets hit while they are trying to kick, they only lose a few DP rather than having their dodge activated! I know its kind of like the MB saber malee, but having kick with all styles was kind of like that before anyway. Hopefully this won't result in too much kicking.

If the problem really is just lack of knowledge of this saber system, maybe you and I should fight tomarrow and see how it ends up. I can probably be online anytime after 4 pm mountain time.


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UDM Quote: in singapore, gangsters are...skinny jacka**es who think they can 0wn you. they hurl insults at u, and then lose in a fight. n00bs

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Old 01-12-2006, 11:13 PM   #18
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Oh wait a minute, I think I see what youre saying. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this could be the swing blocking I was talking about when I fight the Tabbots. they both swing, but no mishap happens and no DP is drained because the the sabers are just colliding. Maybe this these guys have learned this and are doing what they can to prevent DP loss. Well, thats one way of making the fights longer! lol. Remember my swing parrying idea about using the ALT ATTACK button to turn an attacking in to a defensive parrying? Although I'm aware of the problems you stated with it before, this might be a good remedy.

I could be wrong in all may presumptions here so you might have to clarify whats happening a bit more.


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Old 01-12-2006, 11:32 PM   #19
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Wait, I've got it! Male the penalty for getting hit while trying to kick less! If a person gets hit while they are trying to kick, they only lose a few DP rather than having their dodge activated! I know its kind of like the MB saber malee, but having kick with all styles was kind of like that before anyway. Hopefully this won't result in too much kicking.
wha? I'm not really sure what this would accomplish.

As for the swinging spamming, after some additional time playing with the system, I'm thinking that maybe I was just over worrying about the problem. From what I can tell, the spamming only occurs if the players are only hitting saber-on-saber in the first place.

I also slightly increased the block animaiton times to make them a touch more obvious (and that seems to have helped with the attack spamming).

Also, based on the amount of negative feedback on the attack fake starts, I thinking that we might we want to go back to the old style system of using !attack + alt_attack.


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Old 01-12-2006, 11:55 PM   #20
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Forget what I said in the first response, I misunderstood what was going on and miss diagnoised the problem. DOH! (sobbing) I'm a bad doctor! I also wrote it right after I got up from my nap.

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I also slightly increased the block animaiton times to make them a touch more obvious (and that seems to have helped with the attack spamming).
Good idea, especially if it doesn't slow down the action by much.

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Also, based on the amount of negative feedback on the attack fake starts, I thinking that we might we want to go back to the old style system of using !attack + alt_attack.
Honestly, thats probably a good idea. I often end up kicking first rather than faking and entering dodge as the saber passes through my kick.


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UDM Quote: in singapore, gangsters are...skinny jacka**es who think they can 0wn you. they hurl insults at u, and then lose in a fight. n00bs
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Old 01-13-2006, 01:32 AM   #21
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Well, I'm referring to the fakes you can perform now by simply not holding down the attack button.

Also, in other news, I'm adding new saber effects to make them more like the moves. For now, I'm altering the saber-on-saber clash effect.


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Old 01-13-2006, 07:01 PM   #22
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Well, I've been playing around with it for a while, and I must say its alot of fun to watch and the action is much better. I've already heard a few people say that they like it alot more than before and I haven't heard any complaints. So its going over pretty well so far I would say.

Great saber flashes! Very movie like. It might make the combat a little more intense if they were just a little bit bigger or maybe brighter..... but then again it may interfere with concentration. Might be worth a try though.

There are a few issues I've noticed with the game and gameplay though:

1. For some reason, the FFA map on the meatgrinder keeps crashing after a few minutes of play. I'm pretty sure it was the server because It wouldn't come back up for a little bit and when it did, it was a different map. I only seemed to hapen when actual people join and played for a while.

2. There is still some disarming going on long before I reach 50- FP or even DP and this even happens when I use a stronger style (but so far, no premature stuns, which is a good sign).

3. Hit detection could use some improvement. The bouncing effect also does not seem as strong as it use to be, but this could just be my imagination because of the block freezes. Its too bad the block animations don't have more frames in the draw back.

4. I wonder if using Keshire's block animations would look better with this. He's always been very proud of them and I've always wanted to see those in action.

Overall, Great accomplishment for such a short period of time. I sure the combat will become alot more solid in the next versions. I love that fact that I have to think alot quicker now. Its all about watching the other guy's saber and movements.

Question: Is it technically possible to make the first person perspective more of a panoramic? It might help to get a better overall view of the swings, but it sounds like it would be hard, if not impossible to implement.


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UDM Quote: in singapore, gangsters are...skinny jacka**es who think they can 0wn you. they hurl insults at u, and then lose in a fight. n00bs

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Old 01-13-2006, 09:10 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by JRHockney*
Well, I've been playing around with it for a while, and I must say its alot of fun to watch and the action is much better.
Good!

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Great saber flashes! Very movie like. It might make the combat a little more intense if they were just a little bit bigger or maybe brighter..... but then again it may interfere with concentration. Might be worth a try though.
I think they're fairly movie realistic as is. I think I'll wait on more feedback on it before changing it as I don't want it to be distracting.

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1. For some reason, the FFA map on the meatgrinder keeps crashing after a few minutes of play.
I'll keep an eye on it. thanks for the heads up.

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2. There is still some disarming going on long before I reach 50- FP or even DP and this even happens when I use a stronger style (but so far, no premature stuns, which is a good sign).
Yeah, I know. I didn't block that behavior yet but it looks like it really needs to be done as well. Plus, I think the disarm percentages need to be nerfed a bit.

Quote:
3. Hit detection could use some improvement. The bouncing effect also does not seem as strong as it use to be, but this could just be my imagination because of the block freezes. Its too bad the block animations don't have more frames in the draw back.
I know that the hit detection isn't perfect, but I'm at the end of options that are fairly easy to do. I could try some other things but I'm not sure how successfull it would be AND it would really change the way the code runs.

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4. I wonder if using Keshire's block animations would look better with this. He's always been very proud of them and I've always wanted to see those in action.
Yeah, we could try that too. It's just a hassle to add that many animations to the mix. Plus, the last time we tried it it wasn't as successful as I had hoped.

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Question: Is it technically possible to make the first person perspective more of a panoramic? It might help to get a better overall view of the swings, but it sounds like it would be hard, if not impossible to implement.
With True View, you can change the fov with cg_truefov.


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Old 01-14-2006, 04:08 PM   #24
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I just had an idea. I've noticed that the hit detection with MB2 is pretty decent when it comes to blocking and even swing blocking and how much the BP gets drained for certain hits. I was thinking that it might be because the blocking is done with only one button and it gives the system less to process. Maybe if you made it simpler to Block/parry, the hit detection would improve and it would be easier to defend against swing spammers (A problem that may develop as more people use this saber system).

My idea is this: Make the 4 parry directions (up, down, left, right based on the attack) only 2. I see 2 possibilities for this:

1. Parrying works with just the up (w) and down (s) keys. Up for parrying up-left, up, and up-right swings and down for side swings and down-left/right swings (or have it inverted like it is).

2. Have parrying up swings (straight down slice) as deflaut (no direction) and all swings to the to the right or left perried by moving in to them with the right (d) and left (a).

Since the action is now moving alot faster with this build (as it should), I figure that having a slightly simpler defense system might be easier on the players (to block multiple swings) and on the hit detection. I doubt this would help the hit detection as much as changing the animations or code in general as we talked about, but I think this would take much less time to change.

Of course, if this really did help the hit detection and make it too easy to defend, we may have to come up with another way to break through the defense or just tell people to fake alot more.


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UDM Quote: in singapore, gangsters are...skinny jacka**es who think they can 0wn you. they hurl insults at u, and then lose in a fight. n00bs
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Old 01-14-2006, 05:55 PM   #25
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Well, part of the reason that the blocks aren't as "accurate" is due to me using the bounding box instead of the actual player model for the area at which the players block saber attacks. I did this to help with the illusion of sabers not passing thru player's bodies unless the swing actually hits the player for damage. However, the actual player models are still used for damage hit detection. Unfortunately, we have a limited amount of block animations that we can use for blocking incoming attacks. We could add in Keshire's block positions, but we can get to that in due time.

As for MB2's saber system, I'm not familar with what they internally after the cooperative split. I have a copy of the MB2 source from when Phunk moved on to other projects but I honestly haven't messed with it. Unfortunately, untagged code is very hard to port features. (Plus, I'm not into the mod porting business much anymore anyway. I got hellish, unorganized porting work dumped on me one too many times.)

As for the parrying, that's the way the system currently works. IE, up-left attack can be blocked by any move made within one direction position of it (left, up, and left/up).


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Old 01-14-2006, 10:00 PM   #26
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Well, part of the reason that the blocks aren't as "accurate" is due to me using the bounding box instead of the actual player model for the area at which the players block saber attacks. I did this to help with the illusion of sabers not passing thru player's bodies unless the swing actually hits the player for damage. However, the actual player models are still used for damage hit detection. Unfortunately, we have a limited amount of block animations that we can use for blocking incoming attacks. We could add in Keshire's block positions, but we can get to that in due time.
I see, so making it simplier than it is probably wouldn't do a thing. And I love that bounding box! It makes the combat look so much better. MB has a similiar function I think, but because everyones always running there, the saber still pass through people even though there is a draw back. The MB team decided to use this to cause gradual HP damage to shorten the saber fights, but I think it looks unrealistic. If only they would penalize running more!!

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As for MB2's saber system, I'm not familar with what they internally after the cooperative split. I have a copy of the MB2 source from when Phunk moved on to other projects but I honestly haven't messed with it. Unfortunately, untagged code is very hard to port features. (Plus, I'm not into the mod porting business much anymore anyway. I got hellish, unorganized porting work dumped on me one too many times.)
Thats a shame, they could use a good coder like you. At present time, even though your saber system isnt quite as polished as theirs, yours definitely looks more movie realistic and probably even has more potential.

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As for the parrying, that's the way the system currently works. IE, up-left attack can be blocked by any move made within one direction position of it (left, up, and left/up).
Wow, with in one space! Even diagnally! Thats easier than I thought, never mind.

I'll keep thinking based on this new information.


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UDM Quote: in singapore, gangsters are...skinny jacka**es who think they can 0wn you. they hurl insults at u, and then lose in a fight. n00bs
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Old 01-15-2006, 01:19 AM   #27
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Old 01-15-2006, 06:19 AM   #28
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I have a 2 questions and a suggestion and a bug report.

Question 1: when I successfully parry a person and their saber freezes, am I supposet to still lose DP? I notice I still do lose at least a little.

Question 2: Since the parry for a top down slice is back (s) because its inverted, does that mean that a parry for a top right (my right) slice is back-right (s and d) or is it inverted also to back-left?

Suggestion: I think that Tavions style and blue style should be slowed down to what yellow is now and maybe yellow style slowed down to desanns style but red stay the same. The speeds for tavion and blue are so fast that they end up rebounding most of way or all the way through the opponent and they are unbalanced because they are incredibly hard to defend against at that speed.

If you wonder why I suggest this, try fighting a tabbot in the holocron FFA who uses blue style, they are almost unbeatable without swing spamming. It is also more fun to watch and more movie like fight with slower styles because of the superior control and the cleaner rebound action (ahh huh huh...I said rebound action...huh huh huh).

Slowing down the styles a bit might also help with the hit detection (maybe). Along with this, it might be a good idea to make the faster styles weaker if they arent already. Of course, this is all assuming you don't still want to make all the styles the exact same speed.

Bug report: I notice that bots using blue style never freeze even in attack position when I parry them correctly and I don't recall ever freezing when I use it myself. Blue style bots and myself using blue and I think even tavions style only seem to get disarmed instead of briefly frozen.

I also noticed that when I try to kick in malee, I freeze in place for a few seconds.


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Old 01-15-2006, 08:02 AM   #29
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1. Parrying still reduces DP by the same amount as normal blocks. I suppose we could try changing that.

2. Only the vertical axis is reversed. right/left is in terms of the player's left/right and not the attacker's. The reason why the vertical axis is reversed is for logical/gameplay reasons. An defender that is under attack from overhead swings (which is an advancing move for the attacker) would probably move backwards. Plus, from a gameplay persphective, this makes a defender naturally move backwards since an attacker is going to make a lot of overhead swings while he's moving towards the player (thanks for the JKA saber swing control system).

As for the attack speeds, I know this sounds unbelievable but the last time I checked, the actual attack animations ARE running at the same speed based on fps and frame numbers. At least this is the case for all the normal styles and probably the hidden ones as well. Granted, the starts/returns/transitions animations DO seem to take different amounts of time (most notably with the red style).

Anyway, a lot of the saber style's windup speeds are offset by swing range. While the blue styles do seem to move fast, they also don't have nearly the range as red or yellow.

That being said, I agree that styles do need some differences in terms of pros/cons to make them more even and enjoyable to use in their own right. I'm open to suggestions on what these pros/cons should be. However, I don't beleive in rock-paper-scissor saber combat so I feel that each difference needs to be justified logically.

For example, all single handed styles should have a penalty to their disarment chances since the sabers aren't being held by two hands. This is one way I think we can help balance the dual/double sabers vs the single saber styles.

I haven't seen a lack of slow bounces in the blue style but I'll keep an eye out of it.

Finally, the kicking bug has been resolved as of yesterday.


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Old 01-15-2006, 06:07 PM   #30
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1. Parrying still reduces DP by the same amount as normal blocks. I suppose we could try changing that.
Might be a good idea, but I suppose it could stay the same as long as the parried person loses more DP from that parry than you do from doing the parry.

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As for the attack speeds, I know this sounds unbelievable but the last time I checked, the actual attack animations ARE running at the same speed based on fps and frame numbers. At least this is the case for all the normal styles and probably the hidden ones as well. Granted, the starts/returns/transitions animations DO seem to take different amounts of time (most notably with the red style).
Does this mean its not possible to slow down the styles individually? If it is at all possible still think the faster styles should be slowed down. Since they obviously have less animation frames than the slower style, may they should get less fps. They should hopefully rebound cleaner this way unless its the fault of the animations.

Anyways, I have a few more hopefully logical suggestions after playing with the styles for a while:

1. I think the freeze time caused by a successful parry or hit should be longer depending on the style that they where hit or parried with. Tavion and blue styles should cause a short freeze while red should cause the longest freeze. I've notice when I fought with red that if I parry someone, freeze ends long before I can finish my swing.

2. Make the block animation after doing a successful parry terminate quicker than it does. This often prevents a person who has done a parry from attacking the other person before the other person recovers from the parry they just recieved. I think this is also one of the reason way attacking is much more effective than parrying so far.

3. Make the faster styles do less DP damage. When I fight a Blue style tabbot and miss with a parry or get frozen from a hit, they swing spam and tear me to shreads very quickly. If they are going to stay that speed, they need some serious disadvantages. Red should still do the most damage, but not by much. If possible, staff should be weak but have more DP so it becomes a great weapon for fighting 2 or more people.
Quote:
For example, all single handed styles should have a penalty to their disarment chances since the sabers aren't being held by two hands. This is one way I think we can help balance the dual/double sabers vs the single saber styles.
Good Idea, but I wouldn't penalize desann's style too much, its already pretty slow compared to the others. I would also make the dual sabers and staff move a bit slower because its alot harder to tell what direction they are swinging.

Soooooooo, do ya think you'll have the next build by next friday again! lol. That was really fast last time!


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UDM Quote: in singapore, gangsters are...skinny jacka**es who think they can 0wn you. they hurl insults at u, and then lose in a fight. n00bs
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Old 01-15-2006, 07:17 PM   #31
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Might be a good idea, but I suppose it could stay the same as long as the parried person loses more DP from that parry than you do from doing the parry.
Well, I kind of like the idea of having DP only go down if you're getting attacked. That way we're heavily encouraging people to be offensive and not turtle their way to victory.

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Does this mean its not possible to slow down the styles individually? If it is at all possible still think the faster styles should be slowed down. Since they obviously have less animation frames than the slower style, may they should get less fps. They should hopefully rebound cleaner this way unless its the fault of the animations.
No, I have complete control over the animations, if we need to tweak them, I can and have done so.

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1. I think the freeze time caused by a successful parry or hit should be longer depending on the style that they where hit or parried with. Tavion and blue styles should cause a short freeze while red should cause the longest freeze. I've notice when I fought with red that if I parry someone, freeze ends long before I can finish my swing.
An interesting idea, we might have to try that. But is it logical to have the freeze times differ based on the defender's style or the attacker's style?

As for the slow bounce times, I agree that they don't seem long enough in some cases, I think I'll make it a little be longer in the next release.

Quote:
2. Make the block animation after doing a successful parry terminate quicker than it does. This often prevents a person who has done a parry from attacking the other person before the other person recovers from the parry they just recieved. I think this is also one of the reason way attacking is much more effective than parrying so far.
Yeah, I've been struggling with the parry visual effect. I tried using the projective block animations but they're just too fast to be seen in saber combat most of the time. I'll see what I can do about speeding up the parry animations or maybe just use the knockaway animations whenever a parry is performed.

Quote:
3. Make the faster styles do less DP damage. When I fight a Blue style tabbot and miss with a parry or get frozen from a hit, they swing spam and tear me to shreads very quickly. If they are going to stay that speed, they need some serious disadvantages. Red should still do the most damage, but not by much. If possible, staff should be weak but have more DP so it becomes a great weapon for fighting 2 or more people.
I'm liking these ideas. But, again, should the DP costs be based on the defender's style or the attacker's style? Maybe both?

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Soooooooo, do ya think you'll have the next build by next friday again! lol. That was really fast last time!
Maybe, as my school workload goes up, I'll have less and less time for the mod.


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Old 01-15-2006, 11:11 PM   #32
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Well, I kind of like the idea of having DP only go down if you're getting attacked. That way we're heavily encouraging people to be offensive and not turtle their way to victory.
Good point. Plus, I like the greater ephesis on attacking in order to win a fight. As long as being defensive isn't too dangerous or less useful.

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An interesting idea, we might have to try that. But is it logical to have the freeze times differ based on the defender's style or the attacker's style?
I've been debating this along time in my head and I think it should be based on the attackers style because they are the ones who need to follow up with a swing. Two Red style fighters would never get any hits on eachother after parrying if their freeze time was too short.

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As for the slow bounce times, I agree that they don't seem long enough in some cases, I think I'll make it a little be longer in the next release.
I'd be careful about this one. I would say that it might be better to work on making the parry animations shorter first so the parrying guy can swing faster. The knockaway animation might work better for this as you suggested. However, if you can't get this done or the attack style based slow bounces (the last idea) done before you make the next release, then its probably a good idea.

Quote:
I'm liking these ideas. But, again, should the DP costs be based on the defender's style or the attacker's style? Maybe both?
Again I had to think about this very hard. I would say both, in a way. DP damage should also be based on the attackers style here, however, different styles will have different DP gains. Staff should have the fastest DP gain and do light to moderate DP damage, thus, making it the best defensive weapon for fighting two or more people. Dual sabers would do maybe Moderate to high DP damage but have a slowest DP gain. Red would have a pretty fast DP gain and do the most DP damage while tavion style would have a fairly slow DP gain and do the least DP damage. Mind you, these differences would have to be fairly small in order to keep it balanced.

I just had an interesting idea. Since the focus in more on attack now, I think there should be some strategy when both people are swinging. I was thinking about how in MB2, the point of the HPing system is to hit the opponent anywhere his saber isn't even when they are blocking or swing blocking. This gives me an idea:

When both saberists are swinging, whoever hits their opponent first anywhere their opponent's saber isn't (maybe two swing positions away or a virtual foot from the opponents saber), it will cause that opponent to lose some DP and it will make the rest of the opponents last swing do no damage or maybe even enter block. If a saberist senses that he is about to be hit first, he can try to turn so the swing hits his saber instead of him. This will give the faster styles a big advantage to make up for there short comings that I have already suggested being implemented. Is this idea even possible?

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Maybe, as my school workload goes up, I'll have less and less time for the mod.
yep, we have like one more day of none-school freedom!!

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Try using the saber sounds from Movie stances 2.0.
http://jediknight2.filefront.com/fil...ances_20;37063
They really make the combat sound more intense.


Game screen name: Master Jon Hoc Ni

UDM Quote: in singapore, gangsters are...skinny jacka**es who think they can 0wn you. they hurl insults at u, and then lose in a fight. n00bs

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Old 01-16-2006, 03:57 AM   #33
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I just thought of another crazy idea that your welcome to say "no way" on, because it would change alot of the dynamics of the system. This may or may not have to do with some of my previous suggestions above.

As I was messing arond with the tabbots tonight, I started tapping the attack button just as they were about to hit me. and it seemed to block them in a swing block fashion without losing DP if I did it right and it I was moving in a parry direction it also seemed to parry them. An idea came out of this.

My crazy idea it this: Get rid of auto block and make the fakestarting (or beginning swing) animations into what will be more of an active block. As long as the fakestarting animation has started and is still going even through the drawback animation after you let go of the attack button, your character with block the swing, lose DP, and, and do the proper block animation. You can still parry by pressing the right direction, but you have to have tap attack in order to parry block. An actual attack comes by holding down the attack button long enough to pass a certain point in the beginning swing animation and DP damage still only comes by attacking. If you do not at least tap the attack button an start up your swinging animation for an attackers swing, you will not block the swing and your Dodge will activate. A collision of to attacking sabers that have passed the point of where it is a block or fake still just collide with no DP loss (unless maybe one of them hits the opponent first where his saber isnt and my idea in the previous post takes place).

I think this might be good for two reasons:

1. It would make the system a little bit more realistic in terms of active blocking (which cant be spammed because it costs too much).

2. It would make the transition to a block animation look smoother because character has already started to move his arms into something.

Crazy but maybe logical, huh?


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Old 01-16-2006, 05:25 AM   #34
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When both saberists are swinging, whoever hits their opponent first anywhere their opponent's saber isn't (maybe two swing positions away or a virtual foot from the opponents saber), it will cause that opponent to lose some DP and it will make the rest of the opponents last swing do no damage or maybe even enter block. If a saberist senses that he is about to be hit first, he can try to turn so the swing hits his saber instead of him. This will give the faster styles a big advantage to make up for there short comings that I have already suggested being implemented. Is this idea even possible?
This is already the case with the current system, however, the first player to "get hit" does have to automatically enter into a block move.

As for your second suggestion, I REALLY don't think that button-based blocking can practically work at these attack speeds. I've already tried several different button-based blocking systems and it's simply too fast for the average player to be able to handle. I'm sure there's a few godlike players some where out there how could manual blocking like that, but I don't think that's something that the average player can enjoy.

That being said, I can see it making sense to have the attack fakes causing parry-like results in attack-on-attack situations. I could set it up that way, but I don't think it will be used very often. Right now the faking system isn't used very often. It's tricky to use even for myself.

However, your idea of using the start animations as blocks is rather interesting. I'll have to think about it, but using them might give the system a bit more visual heft. Good idea. I'll get back to you on that.


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Old 01-16-2006, 03:56 PM   #35
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This is already the case with the current system, however, the first player to "get hit" does have to automatically enter into a block move.
Cool, I was wondering why one of us (me and a tabbot or another player) seems to win in a swing fight.

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As for your second suggestion, I REALLY don't think that button-based blocking can practically work at these attack speeds. I've already tried several different button-based blocking systems and it's simply too fast for the average player to be able to handle. I'm sure there's a few godlike players some where out there how could manual blocking like that, but I don't think that's something that the average player can enjoy.
Yeah, I figured that was a stretch. LOL

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That being said, I can see it making sense to have the attack fakes causing parry-like results in attack-on-attack situations. I could set it up that way, but I don't think it will be used very often. Right now the faking system isn't used very often. It's tricky to use even for myself.
Maybe if the dfender chooses the perfect angle in a fake to meeting the incoming attack, it will do a shorter parry and because its a fake, the defender can counter attack quicker. That might help its usage.

Quote:
However, your idea of using the start animations as blocks is rather interesting. I'll have to think about it, but using them might give the system a bit more visual heft. Good idea. I'll get back to you on that.
Yeah, totally. I suppose the animation could even end with a standard block animation.


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Old 01-16-2006, 07:12 PM   #36
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I just had another idea. I've already tried to sell a similiar idea to this to the MB site, but it may actually be more practical with this system.

I think that turning moves in all styles should do more DP damage and even force a slow draw back. The trick with this is that doing a turning move will cost more FP, be slower and will cause a big DP loss and slow drawback freeze to the attacker if the attacker gets hit in the back while he's doing it. I think it would add some depth to the attack on attack portion of the fighting and also make saberists avoid doing turning attacks unless appropriate and thus making saber on saber combat based less on random swings (noobs will get slaughtered!!! WAAAAHAHAHAA!). The faster styles will only get a slightly increased DP attack bonus (if any) and red style will cause huge DP loss and the longest slow draw back or maybe even a stun. Some saber flipping animations might be cool to use with these as well.


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Old 01-17-2006, 12:46 AM   #37
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mmm, are you referring to the actual spin move or the attack that immediately follows said move?


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Old 01-17-2006, 03:34 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by razorace
mmm, are you referring to the actual spin move or the attack that immediately follows said move?
I'm refering to the spin swing that follows a normal swing usually in a combo when swung in a similiar direction to the last swing (unless done when landing from a jump when it sometimes happens). Along with the benefits and risks I listed above, this spin move should also be able to get parried itself too if the defender does it right.

Its primary function will be to strategically break through a series of volleying attack on attack swings while causing some DP damage or give the defender an opening when the attacker tries the spin. It will make the attack on attack saber combat more disciplined because both saberists will have to avoid spinning until planned. Since its unrealistic to turn your back in a sword fight in the first place, combo spinning should be risky but stronger from the momentum. I think adding a feature like this would really increase the depth of this system and make it even more unique.

I suppose you could even assign a manual button to start up these spin swings without comboing, but I kind of like the discipline of avoiding spin moves. Then again, this comboing power spin idea might limit the types of chain combo directions that can take place without risk if there is no manual button for it, but I don't see that as being too much of a sacrifice.


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Old 01-17-2006, 03:35 AM   #39
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Well, I just looked into it and it looks like using the swing start or swing return animations just doesn't look right for parrying or blocking. As such, I'm thinking it might be time to dust off the old keshire block animations and reimpliment them. That way we'll have a two-tiered saber combat animation library, one set for attacks and one for blocks. Hopefully with my better knowledge of the saber animation system I'll be able to impliment them in a way that will look good (which was a problem previously).

I think the main problem last time was that I didn't link the automatic movement cycling into the new animations. As such, the animations would look good until it was time to autoreturn to the ready position and then it would crap out and just jump back.


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Old 01-17-2006, 03:44 AM   #40
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LOL! You post the second after I responded to that last question!

And, great! I'd love to see Keshire's blocks in action. I hope it works out.


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