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Old 05-09-2007, 12:09 PM   #1081
TheShaman
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Well, the thing is... that would happen when you hit in leg/foot or arm/hand, right? So you slice through the leg (graphically, no dismemberment, since the victim is alive), he can't move for a while, and then can run and bunnyhop again?
The only way to make it really realistic would be to make difference between a slice through the limb and a slice just a bit on it, but I heavily doubt Q3 engine can handle this... alas...
So maybe a ingame death would be the best "fighter taken out of the fight" in fact...
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Old 05-09-2007, 04:16 PM   #1082
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Yeah, it might be best the way it is.


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Old 05-12-2007, 05:03 AM   #1083
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New topic. I'm working with Max on working on a way to balance out the saber animation speeds. Right now I'm trying the following...

attacks = .5 secs
starts (windups) = .25 secs
returns = .5 secs
transitions = .125 - .5 secs (depends on the size of the position shift)

- In theory, this should allow parriers to be able to launch an attack before the attacker has a chance to recover. Assuming that the parry animation isn't much slower than the bounce animation. IE
defender = parry + transition + attack = parry + (.125-.5) +.5 = parry + (.625-1.125)
should be faster than...
attacker = bounce + return + start + attack = bounce + .5 + .125 + .5 = bounce + 1.125
- Spin transitions probably need to be slowed down to .5 no matter what. I've noticed that .125 secs is just too fast for a spin. This will translate to styles with more spin moves being at an disadvantage to non-spinny one.
- I've already started to do this with the blue, yellow, red to see how it affects things. I'll let you guys know what I discover.

What do you guys think?


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Old 05-12-2007, 05:42 AM   #1084
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Sounds good on paper, but personally, I think it'd be better if we tested it out ingame first
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Old 05-12-2007, 08:23 AM   #1085
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Just give me a legend of things to do and I'll do them, but I hope you're taking in account the time struggle I'm going to have soon.

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Old 05-12-2007, 09:31 AM   #1086
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This looks very good to me, but shouldn't it be different values for each style?
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Old 05-12-2007, 02:43 PM   #1087
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxstate
Just give me a legend of things to do and I'll do them, but I hope you're taking in account the time struggle I'm going to have soon.
attacks = .5 secs
starts (windups) = .25 secs (this might need to be .5 secs)
returns = .5 secs
transitions =
1 quad shift (example T_TR) = .125
2 quad shift (example T__R) = .25
3 quad shift (example T_BR) = .375
4 quad shift (example L__R) = .5

This is probably just the basic modifications. Some moves, like spins, might need to be modified to look correctly. I suggest that we just focus on shifting everything to the "standard" first and then worry about moves that don't look right. I'm alright working on "base" styles (red, yellow, blue). IE animation levels 1,2,3. You can focus on the other styles.

WARNING: I've moved the animation defines around a lot so you're going to want to move any modifications you haven't committed to a backup file before performing a SVN update. After that, you will have to manually move your modifications into the updated animation.cfg.

Quote:
This looks very good to me, but shouldn't it be different values for each style?
I'm saying no. The player should be moving the same speed no matter which style they are using. However, it might turn out that the more sweeping styles might need to be slowed down a touch to have comparable blade movement.


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Last edited by razorace; 05-12-2007 at 03:14 PM.
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Old 05-13-2007, 04:26 AM   #1088
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Allright, that will make style balancing easier, since it's one less thing to take in account.
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Old 05-13-2007, 05:57 AM   #1089
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Alright I'll get started on SVN redownloading and such tonight and hopefully we can do a few of these together when you have time so I'm certain not to make any mistakes..

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Old 05-14-2007, 09:46 PM   #1090
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Ok, task completed. I've also standardized the parry animations to last .25 seconds. It seems to work well, but it also makes them look like a blur of movement. That could be good or bad.


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Old 05-15-2007, 08:06 PM   #1091
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What do you guys think about removing the traditional slow bounces and making parries result in the attacker making a slower bounce/return? While I like the current system, the slow bounces do look a bit artifical.


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Old 05-16-2007, 03:44 AM   #1092
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A slower bounce?

What do you mean?

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Old 05-16-2007, 10:15 AM   #1093
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Well I'm not sure of understanding. Does this mean that when the attacker suffers a slowbounce, instead of being frozen a while and then returning, he would not freeze but return even slower instead?

Alright, this looks fine to me, could be an improvement.
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Old 05-16-2007, 01:06 PM   #1094
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Ok, the current behavior for parried attackers is a bounce animation, followed by a forced return-to-stance animation. These occur at the normal animation speeds.

My suggestion is that make that particular bounce and return move a bit slower to get the defender a chance to switch to attacking.


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Old 05-16-2007, 02:07 PM   #1095
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Hmm I use slowbounces to try and disarm my opponents, if this will help that goal then I'm all in.

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Old 05-16-2007, 06:24 PM   #1096
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I'm for slowing down the return animation after you get parried, but as far as getting rid of the normal slowbounces from attack parries, only if we replace it with something that looks better, (and this ONLY applies to the normal slowbounces and NOT the heavybounces) IF we make it the stumble animation which would look less artificial, I think we should slow it down to the speed of our present slowbounce and make it so that your aren't vulnerable to force in it (or Spam City here we come) and make sure its not in the mishap maxout roll (which should be only knockdown anyways from my code but I noticed that its still a roll). Only then am I in favor of this part of it... unless you have another less artificial animation in mind to replace the slowbounce. While slowbounces may not be that pretty looking right now, the concept of what they accomplish I believe is an ESSENTIAL part of defense in our saber system.


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Old 05-17-2007, 05:04 AM   #1097
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I'm with you Razor. This looks pretty good. But does this apply to all parries? or attack parries only? (I think that getting parried doesn't cause slowbounce, does it? Only a forced mishap with a bit of MP makes a slow bounce, right?)
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Old 05-18-2007, 02:32 AM   #1098
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Ya know, after think about it a bit, I'm not so sure these longer rebound times are a good idea because it might overpower defense a bit. With the new mishap values for parrying and the fact that you can learn to attack parry without too much trouble, its already possible to mount a pretty solid defense. In fact, the parry system right now allows for the attackers mishap meter to go up fast if their parried several times in a row. If theres too much of a break after getting parried, I'm worried that the attacker would stop his agressiveness and not get their meter up. Also, there might be less over all mishap flucuation because they would be going back and forth parry each other. But then again the back and forth action might not be such a bad thing. I don't know, this could very easily be a pretty good, or a really bad thing to happen to our system. I'm just worried aboiut spoiling our current balance because its soo good right now.


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Old 05-18-2007, 04:11 AM   #1099
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I've just committed the change to the repository. Please check it out when you guys have time. Hopefully we'll have time to play around with it tomorrow.

I've already tried it with the bots and I think it's a marked improvement. It gaves a more immediate effect to the parries and allows for much more back-and-forth action. And back-and-forth action looks and feels cooler IMO.


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Old 05-26-2007, 04:40 PM   #1100
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Hello.
I've been messing around with this mod since a week or two with my mates on lan. It feels really professional and is very fun to play. I'm really impressed.

Some things in the saber system bothers me. First, the attack when you jump to finish off a guy on the floor - its imo too slow and can be avoided too easily. I also find spin-around attacks, especially on the blue style too slow. I believe they happen too often to be that slow. The last thing that bothers me is that when you get disarmed its a bit too easy to pick the saber up again. Sometimes I can't even manage to hit the disarmed opponent. Maybe some simple pickup procedure would fix it - the need to crouch on and stay a moment or to roll over the saber. I also though about interrupting the saber come-back force power, maybe with force pull? Dunno.

Anyways, these are just my thoughts after several long games and some testing. Not really big issues at all, but I thought that you can check them out.
My ingame nick is same as here or Zeus. Sometimes I invade the server, but it's pingy since I'm european. We are playing through Hamachi, so if anyone wants to have some fights and is european too, we can hook up and setup a network.

Again great job on the mod. I've never seen a better one.

Cheers
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Old 05-26-2007, 05:20 PM   #1101
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I'm glad you've been enjoying the mod. We've worked hard on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yango
Some things in the saber system bothers me. First, the attack when you jump to finish off a guy on the floor - its imo too slow and can be avoided too easily.
Good point. Bug ticket that and I'll try to get around to it before the next release.
Quote:
I also find spin-around attacks, especially on the blue style too slow. I believe they happen too often to be that slow.
We've actually already fixed that. Try out the latest version and see if that fixed the problem for you.
Quote:
The last thing that bothers me is that when you get disarmed its a bit too easy to pick the saber up again.
Good point. I've had a problem about that too, but I keep forgetting to tweak that. Bug ticket.
Quote:
My ingame nick is same as here or Zeus. Sometimes I invade the server, but it's pingy since I'm european.
Try getting in contact with our European Test Lead, MaxState. He's in charge of getting new betas out to you guys and scheduling games and such.


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Old 05-26-2007, 05:29 PM   #1102
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Thanks for your kind words. Thanks for actually learning the saber system too! LOL! Not many newer players really do that very well.

Quote:
First, the attack when you jump to finish off a guy on the floor - its imo too slow and can be avoided too easily.
Yeah that could be a bit faster. That anim's always been a bit of a problem. Sometimes it doesnt even hit right when it does hit.

Quote:
I also find spin-around attacks, especially on the blue style too slow. I believe they happen too often to be that slow.
Thats debatable I think. If they are too slow, thats probably a good think since blue hits waay too fast in combo creating that "hacksaw" combo feel of the style we're always talkng about and because of the way the animations are, it will probably always be like that. A slower turn around might help keep it in balance.

Quote:
The last thing that bothers me is that when you get disarmed its a bit too easy to pick the saber up again. Sometimes I can't even manage to hit the disarmed opponent. Maybe some simple pickup procedure would fix it - the need to crouch on and stay a moment or to roll over the saber.
hmm, maybe. We could extend the heavybounce conversion disarm time a bit and slowing down their movement, but not allowing them to call back their saber at all might be a little over the top since everyone would just try for those and neglect kick and forcepower usage.


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Old 05-27-2007, 12:38 PM   #1103
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Hi.
Thanks for quick answers.

Quote:
hmm, maybe. We could extend the heavybounce conversion disarm time a bit and slowing down their movement, but not allowing them to call back their saber at all might be a little over the top since everyone would just try for those and neglect kick and forcepower usage.
I know that keeping balance is a hard task. But I think that disarming is somehow superior to kick and gripping/lightnings. I see it that way:

In order to make disarm effective, make picking saber up a bit harder and time consuming. (3-5 seconds?) Sometimes it just gets instantly picked up.
In order to make kick and force lightning/push/pull effective, speed up the attack I mentioned in the previous post.
In order to make force grip more effective, let the gripper not be pushed/pulled for, say, 2-3 seconds. I forgot to mention this one before. Now pressing F1 for me is just an instant reaction to being gripped.

It should be quite ok.
Now for those bug tickets - am I supposed to post them there? Not sure if I understood it good. Ah and I'll check out the new version in coming days.

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Old 05-27-2007, 02:03 PM   #1104
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Um, the bug tickets are on another website. The link to that site is in that thread.


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Old 05-28-2007, 04:41 AM   #1105
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Although, force power spam must not ruin saber fights, we have to keep that in mind, OJP must not become a force power mod, the core is the amazingly rich saber system.
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Old 06-15-2007, 11:25 AM   #1106
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Hey.
After the spin arounds got sped up, abusing them is possible. You can chain spins when bouncing from one's defense indefinitly, and now it's really fast and deadly. During the duels I noticed that if you got a successful spin spam you basically win. As a solution I'd limit the possible spins chained to two.
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Old 06-15-2007, 11:26 AM   #1107
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There are called comboes, and they're pretty easy to break. I think you need some more practice

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Old 06-15-2007, 11:32 AM   #1108
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They seem to be as easy to break as other moves, though they are way more effective. Besides that, such move is completely unrealistic. No doubt I need practice, but I say it should be limited.
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Old 06-15-2007, 12:02 PM   #1109
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They only happen when you don't parry well enough.

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Old 06-15-2007, 01:47 PM   #1110
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All the saber animations have been standardized to have consistant speeds between the different styles including staff and dual sabers. While it looks like the staff moves might be faster or slower, they are the same speed. Really!


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Old 06-15-2007, 03:01 PM   #1111
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"They only happen when you don't parry well enough."
I'll do more research then and post back.

"While it looks like the staff moves might be faster or slower, they are the same speed. Really!"
I never mentioned staff..
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Old 06-15-2007, 04:27 PM   #1112
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Oh, sorry, I thought you were talking about staff spins for some reason. So, what's the downside of spins vs the normal transitions?


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Old 06-15-2007, 05:28 PM   #1113
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I just had some fights and took a closer look on those spins.
Indeed they are breakable. I could block them quite easily. Mind that I was hosting.
Now with ping it's a whole different story. Those quick spins take dp down with great speed especially when you're low on skill points. Parrying them gets very hard with network delay.
Imo they are way superior to normal transisions, in terms of speed and threat, and the difference between them should be smaller. We fought without multiple spins, and it was just plain funnier and thats the point.
I won't insist on changing it though. Just remember about the ping issue, which gets noticable when combat gets that fast.
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Old 06-15-2007, 06:02 PM   #1114
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I think the problem here is that because spins were made faster, now people that used to always just walk backwards would have problems because now there are viable combos that attack the lower region. Well, that would just be a problem for those who do not know how to parry anyways, not a problem to someone such as myself. I see nothing wrong with them because you could just as easily parry them as you can any other attack which stops the combo just as it would stop any other combo. Also, ping issues AFFECT EVERYTHING, lets not pretend that it is exclusive to just parrying a specific combo because it is not. If you have bad ping, it will be more difficult to parry in general, just like it would be more difficult to get head shots in Counter Strike if you have a ping of 200 than it would if you had a ping of 50 o.O


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