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Old 02-09-2006, 04:44 PM   #121
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1. Hmm, I'm not sure I entirely agree that it would drive newbies away from the game penalizing combo swings over 2 or 3 moves is actually very generous compared to movie battles2 where the it can cost around 10% BP or more to swing twice in a row. This suggestion was more meant to help keep the faster styles from spamming than anything. Maybe those limits or something similar could be just for them.

2. Agree that maybe the one handed styles should have a disarm penalty, but I don't think the Jumping idea is entirely unrealistic. Sure, its not real life like, but it is movie like. Yoda and episode 1 Obiwan used it, so why not have a style that promotes a little more jumping. How about as a compromise, Back flips and side flips are not penalized. It would also be neat if the lowest jump (which still goes over peoples heads) went into a flip with this style.

3. more to be added later, I have to go


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Old 02-09-2006, 04:59 PM   #122
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Looks like we both had a little time at the same time.

1. I just don't agree with that. FP costs are high enough without adding combo penalties. Besides, the back/forth action should prevent the possibility in the first place.

2. I'm not against having special moves associated with each style, but I don't agree that certain styles should get physical bonuses/penalties to things over than saber combat. For example, the fact that players can't roll out of a fall without having the saber out has been something that I've heard complains about.

3. As for the DFA move, I'm thinking that it should probably cause DP damage and knockdown unless the defender parries. In addition, I think that the attacker should have to be running forward to be able to launch into a DFA. What do you think?

4. As for the yellow overhead jump, I keep thinking that it's primarily a evasive move to get on the other side of the defender. It's primary function is that it's a jump move that doesn't make the player lose block/Dodge protection. We might be able to get away with a small DP smash on the defender as well, but I think this move is mainly about manovering around.

5. Anyway, I really hope Tokeke gets his server back up soon. I'd really like to try the lastest release against other human players. I saw another Enhanced server up last night but it had a password on it.

6. Number lists are fun!


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Old 02-09-2006, 06:21 PM   #123
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I'm back with some time. Go, go, gadget number lists!!!

1. Ok, if you are set on not penalizing too many multiple combo swings, than thats fin; however, if it turns out that after what ever adjustments you make, noobs can still swing spam the faster styles and win, you might want to reconsider.

2. The point of making jumping cost less with blue is mainly to help promote a different fighting style with that blue in general, but as a unique characteristic, I suppose having the blue uppercut would be enough. If it is still going to be faster than yellow, it should do a little less DP damage though. For all the styles, I would like to see backflip and cartwheel penalized less FP wise (10 FP is way too much) though, and maybe the lowest jump go into a fli if possible. They are too dangerous to use too often anyway.

3. I don't think they would be spammable if they cost too much FP to use or maybe allow the attacker to get stunned if he misses and hit on the landing. FP can become a rarety in combat and spamming the special moves would not be realistic for anyone who knows how to fight with this system.
Your ideas are for yellow overhead slash and DFA are pretty good too. Yellow overhead slash should do at least a little DP damage because its one of the coolest moves in the game.

As for you blue lunge idea, I think that might make it alittle overpowered to only use 3 FP and cause so much damage. I personally think should cost no less than 10 FP or maybe 15, disarm and do alot of DP damage if the person isn't stunned, do a little less DP damage if the person is stunned at 50+ DP, and do a ton of damage or kill like you suggested if the person is in a 50- DP stun.

4. Yellow overhead slash should do at least a little DP damage because its one of the coolest moves in the game. The Evasion is a good idea too.

5. I think rolling stab should cost a least 10 FP, do significant DP damage, and maybe knock the opponent over.

6. What do you think about my Promod like suggestions for tavions style? I think it's a good idea and I still think that rolling stab with tavion style should do more DP damage than regular. Remember the theatrics mod and how each swing of its tavions style stopped in the middle and did a stab move? That might also be cool to see done even thought the animations arent perfect.

7. Desanns style needs something original I think, maybe an up close grapple move that causes some DP damage and knocks them over. You could use the last hit of the malee grap punch kata animation and have the saber still turned on in the punchers hand.

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4. All the saber damage is lethal. As such, we can't really tweak saber damage levels since they are all lethal to start with.
Whenever I say the word "damage," it usually means I forgot to say DP in front of it! lol . Anyways, I still think the saber styles need to vary in the DP damages their swings (But not by much!!!) And hopefully if you use my suggestion for tavion's style, it will be the only mutant style of the bunch with to damage possibilities.

Btw, is it possible to speed up the malee grap kata just a bit? I would be cool if doing a kata grap between saber swings was a little more possible for pure maleers. I'm sure that MB people like Shawn Za'an would love you for it. I like to do it once in a while as well.

If Tokakeke gets his server up tonight, I'll put a time to meet down on the scheduling thread if you want to test stuff.

Also, Have you tried putting the new Enhanced on pcgamemds today yet? There are a few new entires.


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Old 02-09-2006, 10:19 PM   #124
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2. I'll consider reducing the backflip/cartwheel/jump FP costs.

6. I don't remember the theatrics mod, sorry.

7. Actually, there's a different, unused fancy DFA animation that isn't used. I might just add that DFA as the Desann style's special move.

8. I don't know about speeding up the grapple move as it could very well unbalance things. There's not exactly much disadvantage to the grapple other than gap in saber block.


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Old 02-09-2006, 10:31 PM   #125
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9. Oh yeah, I'm considering redoing the mishap internals to simpify them. I'm considering removing the more subtle mishaps like ones that occur in attack-on-attack impacts and just making mishaps only happen when the players do something specific. It would make things easier to modify and understand. Yes, we would loss all the subtle random events but my experience has been that random mishaps like that just cause confusion.


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Old 02-09-2006, 11:13 PM   #126
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6. I don't remember the theatrics mod, sorry.
Thats this one: http://www.pcgamemods.com/mod/13578.html Its only for forcemod3 but tavions style is pure fencing in it and the concept of making the swings end with the stab animation is an interesting concept.

Quote:
7. Actually, there's a different, unused fancy DFA animation that isn't used. I might just add that DFA as the Desann style's special move.
Cool, I look forward to seeing it in action. Is it used in JA+ or something? Does that mean you like the idea of making tavions roll stab stronger or the promod like idea for uniqueness sake, or do you have something else planned?

Quote:
8. I don't know about speeding up the grapple move as it could very well unbalance things. There's not exactly much disadvantage to the grapple other than gap in saber block.
Yeah, I know. I just wish there could be a way to delay the dodge a bit or maybe allow the grap to still take place like 20 milisecs into the dodge or something.

Quote:
9. Oh yeah, I'm considering redoing the mishap internals to simpify them. I'm considering removing the more subtle mishaps like ones that occur in attack-on-attack impacts and just making mishaps only happen when the players do something specific. It would make things easier to modify and understand. Yes, we would loss all the subtle random events but my experience has been that random mishaps like that just cause confusion.
Great idea! Any idea how though? Should I be brainstorming able this too?


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Old 02-10-2006, 12:14 AM   #127
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Cool, I look forward to seeing it in action.
It might have been in JA+ but I'm not sure. Its basically a spin attack version of the DFA.

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Great idea! Any idea how though? Should I be brainstorming able this too?
I'm open to suggestions. The major issues are what the base mishap probabilities should be and how the probabilities should change for based on the skill level of duelers. I've been really struggling to figure out what to do about the differences in skill level.

Recently, I've been thinking that it might be easiest for players if the balancing between saber skill levels might just be done with the amount of FP/DP the players get.


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Old 02-10-2006, 01:16 AM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by razorace
I'm open to suggestions. The major issues are what the base mishap probabilities should be and how the probabilities should change for based on the skill level of duelers. I've been really struggling to figure out what to do about the differences in skill level.

Recently, I've been thinking that it might be easiest for players if the balancing between saber skill levels might just be done with the amount of FP/DP the players get.
I think making it DP/FP based is definitely the easiest way unless you wanted to do something really complicated like make a counter that keeps track of parries, successful attacks, or whatever and resents after your opponent is dead or one minute of no action or something.

I do have some FP/DP related suggestions to this though. For one handed styles, keep disarms mishaps random after 50- FP. After 50%- DP and 35- FP or so, make it so that all styles get disarmed if they are kick while they are in a stun (kind of like Darth Sidious was in Episode 3). Everything other mishap 50- FP for two handed styles should be knock downs. Blue Lunge should also disarm in the way I suggested above!


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Old 02-10-2006, 02:26 AM   #129
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So, you're suggesting that two-handed styles should just knockdown instead of disarm?


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Old 02-10-2006, 03:17 AM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by razorace
So, you're suggesting that two-handed styles should just knockdown instead of disarm?
Yes, in a below 50 FP stituation (unless they get kicked while in stun which will disarm them when below 35 or maybe 40 FP).

One handed styles will randomly get either knockdown or disarm below 50 FP, and just disarmed if they get kicked while stunned when below 35 or maybe 40 FP. And like I said, getting kicked in a below 50% DP stun would also disarm.

Basically, this idea adds the "certain situations" aspect that you're going for without getting too complicated.


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Old 02-10-2006, 07:05 AM   #131
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Interestingly enough, I was going thru the bounce code trying to figure out the no bounces in blue issue and I happened across a way to improve the attack fake code. What I did was make it so that if you're not moving, or moving in the same direction as your current attack, you'll simply reverse attack directions. This does make attack fakes much more reasonable at the high swing speeds and also adds a bit of the manual spin button that you suggested earlier.

Anyway, right now I'm just going to toss out some ideas so we can at least form some redementary advantages/disadvantages for the styles/special abilities. The dual/staff saber styles are the "power" styles. There's double the capacity for damage, blocking, etc. but they are also harder to master/control. As such, I think the Dual/Double sabers will end up with the largest pros/cons offsets.

Dual Sabers:
*I see the Dual Sabers mainly being an offensive weapon since the attacker can fake out his opponent and attack from multiple directions at once.
- No transition/faking FP cost
- Double FP for actual attacks *All the movement takes more energy. (this should be pretty offset by the no FP cost for transitions/fakes).
- Higher Threshold for disarms, meaning a dual user has a chance of being disarmed at 75% (or something) DP instead of at the usual 50%

Staff Saber:
*I see the staff saber being more about movement and defense.
- Half DP cost for Saber Blocks
- Double FP for actual attacks
- Higher Threshold for stuns *due to large body movements.


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Old 02-10-2006, 03:33 PM   #132
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Quote:
Interestingly enough, I was going thru the bounce code trying to figure out the no bounces in blue issue and I happened across a way to improve the attack fake code. What I did was make it so that if you're not moving, or moving in the same direction as your current attack, you'll simply reverse attack directions. This does make attack fakes much more reasonable at the high swing speeds and also adds a bit of the manual spin button that you suggested earlier.
Oooooo, excellent. I have an idea along those lines already. Since using fakes uses more FP as your faking, how about if you fake the duration of using 5 points your attack power increase by a tiny bit for the next swing. if you hold on for 10 FP, it increases the attack power of the next swing significantly, but puts you into a stun freeze when its over. it might also be cool it you added longer saber trails to that attack.

Quote:
Dual Sabers:
*I see the Dual Sabers mainly being an offensive weapon since the attacker can fake out his opponent and attack from multiple directions at once.
- No transition/faking FP cost
- Double FP for actual attacks *All the movement takes more energy. (this should be pretty offset by the no FP cost for transitions/fakes).
- Higher Threshold for disarms, meaning a dual user has a chance of being disarmed at 75% (or something) DP instead of at the usual 50%

Staff Saber:
*I see the staff saber being more about movement and defense.
- Half DP cost for Saber Blocks
- Double FP for actual attacks
- Higher Threshold for stuns *due to large body movements.
I like those ideas alot. They seem very balanced. As for their special moves, I think the standing still one should have the same characteristics as blue lunge except do less DP damage with each individual hit (because these moves can hit more than once). The butterflies should do decent DP damage and knock the attacker over and cost more FP than lunge but not quite as much as red DFA.

As for the dual side to side split attack ( the one that hits two people who are at your sides and only happens when this is the case) this should cause stuns.

BTW, more stuff has been added to pcgamemods so I'm assuming its fixed.


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Old 02-10-2006, 04:13 PM   #133
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No, what people are doing is removing their old mods to free up some hard drive space, then addiing new ones in their place.


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Old 02-10-2006, 08:05 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRHockney*
Since using fakes uses more FP as your faking, how about if you fake the duration of using 5 points your attack power increase by a tiny bit for the next swing. if you hold on for 10 FP, it increases the attack power of the next swing significantly, but puts you into a stun freeze when its over. it might also be cool it you added longer saber trails to that attack.
I'm not sure what you mean, but I'm not sure there's much more we can do the faking system since it has to be controllable on the time scale of the current saber combat system. Having any more delay in the attacks would make it so the defender could just start attacking.

Also, I had another idea to help make the system easier to use. Should the faking system disable after the player enters into an attack fake to prevent the system from spaz faking due to very quick transition moves? The idea being that players could just hold down both buttons and be able to quickly launch an attack fake without having to release the alt-attack button.

Quote:
I like those ideas alot. They seem very balanced. As for their special moves, I think the standing still one should have the same characteristics as blue lunge except do less DP damage with each individual hit (because these moves can hit more than once). The butterflies should do decent DP damage and knock the attacker over and cost more FP than lunge but not quite as much as red DFA.
Well, bare in mind that the saber automatically goes into a bounce after each saber-on-saber impact so the dual swing fury would have to do the same DP damage on the first impact to work properly.

As for the butterfly, I'm not sure that we should make it do DP/knockdown like that. It's practically a melee move so should we count it as a melee move and then have the saber aspect of it do something else?

Quote:
As for the dual side to side split attack ( the one that hits two people who are at your sides and only happens when this is the case) this should cause stuns.
That seems reasonable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lathain Valtiel
No, what people are doing is removing their old mods to free up some hard drive space, then addiing new ones in their place.
Thanks for the info, Lath. Personally, I'd prefer to not remove older versions of the mod for backup purposes.


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Old 02-10-2006, 10:04 PM   #135
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I'm not sure what you mean, but I'm not sure there's much more we can do the faking system since it has to be controllable on the time scale of the current saber combat system. Having any more delay in the attacks would make it so the defender could just start attacking.
My basic idea here was just to find a way to make stronger swings in a charge up fashion. But with the next changes this might not be realistic. I do wish there was a way to use that behind the back saber spinning animation from the original red kata in some sort of fake or power move though.
Quote:
Also, I had another idea to help make the system easier to use. Should the faking system disable after the player enters into an attack fake to prevent the system from spaz faking due to very quick transition moves? The idea being that players could just hold down both buttons and be able to quickly launch an attack fake without having to release the alt-attack button.
Hmmm. I'll have to think on this one a little more, but it sounds good on the surface. Would this involve removing the fact that you have to hold down the attack button to do a full attack? If so, probably not. I like that feature.

Quote:
Well, bare in mind that the saber automatically goes into a bounce after each saber-on-saber impact so the dual swing fury would have to do the same DP damage on the first impact to work properly.
Ahhh, true, nevermind. I say just make it like the blue lunge or change it up a little somehow for uniqueness sake.

Quote:
As for the butterfly, I'm not sure that we should make it do DP/knockdown like that. It's practically a melee move so should we count it as a melee move and then have the saber aspect of it do something else?
I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but but as long as it does something, it will be ok with me.

Quote:
That seems reasonable.
Cool!


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Old 02-10-2006, 11:13 PM   #136
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I must say reading some of the suggests kind of makes me fearful as I totally love how 0.0.6 is already but seeing as JRHockney has had some suggestions implemented already makes me feel alot easier about it. Mostly I worry cause spamming one move was really boring after awhile in early JK2 and 0.0.6 seems so nice already for 1v1 duels.

As for suggestions I really can't think of anything to offer right now realisticly, maybe when you find your way around saberlocks and implement them have some sort of gameplay mechanic behind them. A fun one that would go with the type of saber combat OJP enhanced offers. Not pace breakingly deadly as in base where the loser gets killed alot of the time at the end of a lock, but "fun" and them giving an upperhand. Maybe make it so that the lock would happen at a certain percentage of DP you know? Then the loser without effiecent DP could die as a result from the lock, that i could see. But like I said that isnt too realisitc right now as saberlocks are something far off.
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Old 02-11-2006, 12:05 AM   #137
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Implement dodge for gun projectiles is my suggestion. At this rate the whole system is stacked against ANYONE who pulls a saber.

There should be no saber dodge allowed if you're holding a gun.


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Old 02-11-2006, 01:01 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by JRHockney*
Hmmm. I'll have to think on this one a little more, but it sounds good on the surface. Would this involve removing the fact that you have to hold down the attack button to do a full attack? If so, probably not. I like that feature.
It wouldn't involve removing the start fakes.

Quote:
Ahhh, true, nevermind. I say just make it like the blue lunge or change it up a little somehow for uniqueness sake.
Agreed, for now I'll make it like the lunge.

Quote:
I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but but as long as it does something, it will be ok with me.
Basically, it would mean that the butterfly would do it's damage as a melee move (with the feet). The saber might also cause some sort of effect but it would be secondary to the melee damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tapela
Mostly I worry cause spamming one move was really boring after awhile in early JK2 and 0.0.6 seems so nice already for 1v1 duels.
I totally agree. That's why I've been so slow to impliment changes to the special moves. Simply put, I won't allow spamming in Enhanced.

Quote:
Then the loser without effiecent DP could die as a result from the lock, that i could see. But like I said that isnt too realisitc right now as saberlocks are something far off.
So, basically, turn it into a finishing move like the lunge move. I like that idea. The easiest way might be to knock off a decent amount of DP off the loser of a saberlock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lath
Implement dodge for gun projectiles is my suggestion. At this rate the whole system is stacked against ANYONE who pulls a saber.
Yeah, I need to retool the gun blocking and the guns in general. I just haven't gotten to it yet.

Quote:
There should be no saber dodge allowed if you're holding a gun.
Actually, I disagree with that. Gun users (especially those with jedi powers) should have dodge, just less of it. Eventually DP/FP amounts will be determined by which skills the players buy.


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Old 02-11-2006, 01:32 AM   #139
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It wouldn't involve removing the start fakes.
Ok, I'm for it then! LOL

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Actually, I disagree with that. Gun users (especially those with jedi powers) should have dodge, just less of it. Eventually DP/FP amounts will be determined by which skills the players buy.
I think dodge should be based on the gun you are using. For a weal and slow gun like pistol, 3 hits with the saber. Moderate guns like blaster and disruptor, 2 hits. For any other strong or heavey weapon, instant death.

I have a few more ideas to get down before I forget them:

1. Back hits do 50% DP damage (i've said this before but I think its still a good and realistic idea) Manual back blocks might be cool too.

2. Make the block detection higher and hitbox bigger (again, I've said this before but I have a reason for it in suggestion 3)

3.I think it would be realistic to prevent players from getting too close to each other because they would realistically have no room to swing and it would help keep the sabers from going through the player with no damage. This will be done by causing players to only fake if they try to swing too close to the opponent and by making them both lose DP if they touch each other. If they touch eachother, I think they should both go into the saber lock animation but not actually do a real saber lock. They should be able to get out of it by backing up. If the saber lock animation can't be used, I would suggest the animaition for blue base stance when you look up doing it.

4. New saber clash sounds. I honestly can't stand the deflaut ones because they end up sound like caaahhhhgggghghhgghghgghghgg most of the time, I made may own hybid saber sound pk3 using the following saber sound mods:

http://www.pcgamemods.com/mod/3909.html Which is very good if you like the oldschool SW saber sounds. These are alot more distinctive sounding than default as well. You can actually hear the individual hits much better.

and

http://jediknight2.filefront.com/fil...ances_20;37063 That's right, it's not just a animation mod. I used the wall hit sounds and the bounding sounds from this mod and combined them with the mod above. You should try it out.


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Old 02-11-2006, 03:38 AM   #140
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Gun based DP: I can understand the DP cost doubling/tripling based on the blukeyness of the weapon but have a completely different DP cost scale for the guns would be very tricky to impliment. I'll see what I can come up with.

1. I personally think that double DP is probably enough. Anymore and back attacks will be overly powerful. Unfortunately, I still haven't come up with a good way to be able to detect back attacks without also picking up overreaching attacks that are actually coming from attackers in front of the player.

2. I think it's fine until I add Keshire's block animations back in since the current block animations pretty instanous.

3. Mmmm, for gameplay reasons I don't think we'll be able to make players fight farther apart from each other. Basically, simply too easy to get "too close" due to the way the hit detection/animations/movement works. Unfortunately, I don't think we could encourage people to stay farther apart without totally nerfing things and making it unfun.

4. I'll check out the packages and see what I think. Unfortunately, most saber noise mods don't have clean enough samples to be useable without hearing annoying sampling artifacts like background music.


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Old 02-11-2006, 04:14 AM   #141
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Quote:
1. I personally think that double DP is probably enough. Anymore and back attacks will be overly powerful. Unfortunately, I still haven't come up with a good way to be able to detect back attacks without also picking up overreaching attacks that are actually coming from attackers in front of the player.
Ahhh, yeah MB2 has the same problem with over reaching attacks. probably a good idea to keep it normal until the hit detection can improve or something.

Quote:
3. Mmmm, for gameplay reasons I don't think we'll be able to make players fight farther apart from each other. Basically, simply too easy to get "too close" due to the way the hit detection/animations/movement works. Unfortunately, I don't think we could encourage people to stay farther apart without totally nerfing things and making it unfun.
Your probably right about making it too hard to keep player from getting close to each other; however, I do still like the idea of penalitizing them both with DP loss if they touch each other and it would still be realistic because their saber would do the damage by touching. That will at least help them to keep their distance a little bit with out being too unfun ( I think most players will understand the logic at least to that extent and not get frustrated). I also kind of like the idea of adding the saber lock animation if they do touch eachother as I described before, but this may of course have unforseen problems.

I just had a quick idea in order to increase the skill of causing DP loss. when you parry someone and they are stunned in a DP > 50 situation, if your next hit on the his stun at the exact opposite on where his swing started it will do more DP damage and do DP damage even if he hits the right parry direction. I'm not sure how this would work with top-down swings though. I also think DP drain should be increased alittle more for when you hit an opponent first at the complete opposite end of where his saber is if possible during regular combat.

Btw, even though I though default was a little too fast last night when we fought, I really like that intensity that we where fighting at without being so cautious. I suggest two possibilities to keep this factor but make it realistic:

1. Find an in between FP gain setting that is a good compromise between the two settings.

or

2. Keep it at default but make certain moves like kicking a stun (or kicking in general) do more FP damage.


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Old 02-11-2006, 04:41 AM   #142
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Well, idle sabers already do minor DP damage to the other player so DP lost does already occur if the players get to close to each other.

As for a saber location DP cost scaler, I'm not sure the hit detection is accurate enough to make that seem fair. Plus, I think it's best if DP costs are pretty consistant to make it easier to "eyeball" your DP level. (It makes balancing easier too.)

As for the FP regen, we will see. The latest improvements are making it possible to kill someone without using up so much FP (faking, lunge, etc) so I'd like to keep it the same for now.


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Old 02-11-2006, 05:49 AM   #143
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You don't understand.

Look, if the gun user has the ability to jump even REMOTELY well, he can EASILY evade a saber swing ALL on his own. Ask ANYONE who has played for any good length of time how pathetically easy it is to dodge an oncoming saber user when you have a gun. It does NOT help that slashing drains force now too, and lower force means slower swings, which makes it even EASIER on gun users.

Gunners do NOT deserve any second chances from the dodge system. If they allow a saber user to make contact, balance dictates that they should DIE instantly for their ineptitude.


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Old 02-11-2006, 06:21 AM   #144
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Couldn't the jump argument be made for saberers evading as well? You can't dodge while in mid-air so if the saberer can catch them if would be over quickly.

Unfortunately, this is a bit of a weird situation since the gunners basically have Jedi Master force mastery. Realistically the gunners would just be hunted down on the ground and sliced in half like the stormies in SP. This problem would be mainly fixed by having gunner/jedi classes but I haven't gotten that far yet.

As a partial measure, I just finished the retooling of the bolt blocking stuff so it should make things much easier on the Jedi since they can't even get hit unless they totally run out of DP or stunned/knockdowned/etc.


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Old 02-11-2006, 07:27 AM   #145
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After Action Report for the New Faking Revisions:

Wow!

Faking is now useful On the plus side, turtling isn't an option anymore and DP death is much more likely. In addition, the visuals are great. The extended saber trail makes the attack fake look like a heavy strike, which is exactly what it should look like.

....in fact, it's TOO useful now. The fact that you can attack fake and do double DP damage and break thru blocks is too much. As for possible fixes, I'm thinking the following....
1. The counter to an attack fake should simply BE attacking. If you're attacking when hit by an attack fake, the fake should be negated.
2. If you happen to hit a player's saber when they are attack faking, they will have to do a mishap check. (Assuming we go to more straightforward mishap handling.) As such, this will create an openning for the "defender" to get their next hit in.
3. If both players are using attack fakes when their sabers collide, I'm thinking that they should be forced into a saber lock (like in the control room during THE DUEL)

I'm pretty excited about the new fake system. I think this is basically the spin move/attack-parry concepts that have been suggested. The combat has more of an edge to it since you can't hide behind your saber blocking.

Well, in terms of missing core components, I'm thinking that there might need to be something to help players that are low on FP/DP. Maybe like a desperation move or something....I don't know. You should be at an disadvantage whenever you're low in DP/FP, it's just seems like you're completely boned if it happens right now.


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Old 02-11-2006, 10:32 AM   #146
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I say make Dark Rage a sort of "come-back" power, the last ditch struggle to swing the grim looking odds in your favour. This would be more of an offensive tool, with each attack poosibly regaining some force points and odge points, although at a high cost of health. The effect would be only momentary ie. for perhaps a single attack string or volley (maybe two) and if you fail to turn it around, you can count yourself boned.

The jedi could have absorb or protect as a light-side version of this whichn focuses on defense (like Obi-Wan when he was being obviouisly overwhelmed by Anakin in Ep III). The amount of successful blocks you make and parries results in DP/FP gain, though if you fail (ie. your guard is broken or you're parried) you may, as stated, count yourself boned. The end of this power would result in players given an auto parry, allowing for breathing room, or increased possibility of knocking the saber out of the offending player's hands.

Of course, these powers should only be accessible when you're in the region of <20FP and <50% DP.

I also would like to suggest that specials be gaurd break moves, result in a knockdown or parry knockback. Red DFA could be the one which results in a parry like knockback, Yellow DFA results in a knockdown (helpful when stuck in a corner) and blue lunge should just be a cheeky one shot that only stupid or DP/FP bereft players should get hit by.
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Old 02-11-2006, 02:53 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by razorace
Couldn't the jump argument be made for saberers evading as well? You can't dodge while in mid-air so if the saberer can catch them if would be over quickly.

Unfortunately, this is a bit of a weird situation since the gunners basically have Jedi Master force mastery. Realistically the gunners would just be hunted down on the ground and sliced in half like the stormies in SP. This problem would be mainly fixed by having gunner/jedi classes but I haven't gotten that far yet.
You'd think it works that way, but you forget: splash damage weapons. They have to land sometimes, and thus firing splash weaponry at their feet results in their demise as they're coming. That's number 1.

Number 2, what you described is NOT easy. I used to be a demigod at midair slash before I lost the ability, but the timing is extremely difficult, especially if the gunner is varying the height and area of his jumps.

The gunners are presumably firing at you as you're coming.

Assume for a moment that your dodge is triggered as they fire. Presumably, you lose whatever momentum you had while moving towards them (especially if strafe jumping, the best way to catch up to a gun user). This matters for saber users. It doesn't quite matter for gun users.

You also didn't address the slowed swings point.


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Old 02-11-2006, 03:50 PM   #148
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Lathain might have a point here. From my own experience playing MB2, I know that if youre fight a good gunner as a jedi and you miss with your saber even once, your dead, even if their using a normal blaster. Even moderately skilled gunners are trouble if you miss them once. At the moment, gunners can activate their saber, jump 10 times higher than gunners can in MB2, and on top of that, use their dodge meter. Simply put: gunners having dodge is too much right now until an actually gunner class is created. When a gunner class is created, then maybe they should be able to dodge once or twice depending on the weapon their using (like my suggestion above if its possible).

Anyways,

This new faking system sounds great, but I can see how it might be over powered and spammed. I like your idea of being able to hit the fake and negated it or cause a parry. Making the fakes a bit slower might help this as well if they are too fast. I do get the feeling that if we don't get this right the first time it will have to be badly nerfed! lol. Question: Willfakes do double damage from whatever the DP damage is of that particular style (assuming you do make differing DP damages...which I still support for the sake fo balance)?

As far as deperation moves, maybe give the desperate defender the ability to block fakes with no DP loss (if this isnt the way it is already) or maybe allow less force drain when using specials once you make them have diferent characteristics like knockdowns, stuns, disarm, etc.(kind of an adrenaline rush like feature)

Quote:
I also would like to suggest that specials be gaurd break moves, result in a knockdown or parry knockback. Red DFA could be the one which results in a parry like knockback, Yellow DFA results in a knockdown (helpful when stuck in a corner) and blue lunge should just be a cheeky one shot that only stupid or DP/FP bereft players should get hit by.
Actually, we already discussed what you're talking about here further up the thread and it is in the process of being implemented in a similar way. It's good that we're on the same page as far as what should be done. As far as the dark force rage comeback, I'm not sure if that's a good idea since not everyone uses it and it would give that person a big advantage in a saber fight. It would also become like an "essential buy" for force points when they could be put to better use. If everyone automatically got it, than it wouldn't be such a big deal. Interesting concept.

Btw Razor, what do you think of those saber sounds? Improvement?


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Old 02-12-2006, 12:16 AM   #149
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Well, I concede the point about the splash damage weapons. Until I add Dodge for splash damage and normal weapons, I'm going to completely disable Dodge for anyone that isn't using a saber.

Quote:
Question: Willfakes do double damage from whatever the DP damage is of that particular style (assuming you do make differing DP damages...which I still support for the sake fo balance)?
Yes, it will be based off the style the attacker is currently using.

Quote:
As far as deperation moves, maybe give the desperate defender the ability to block fakes with no DP loss (if this isnt the way it is already) or maybe allow less force drain when using specials once you make them have diferent characteristics like knockdowns, stuns, disarm, etc.(kind of an adrenaline rush like feature)
Or maybe have successful parries regen DP/FP when the player is fatigued?

Quote:
As far as the dark force rage comeback, I'm not sure if that's a good idea since not everyone uses it and it would give that person a big advantage in a saber fight. It would also become like an "essential buy" for force points when they could be put to better use. If everyone automatically got it, than it wouldn't be such a big deal. Interesting concept.
I think it's an interesting concept as well and probably the best conversion idea for Rage so far. Maybe Rage should just boost DP/FP at any time in exchange for health or some other disadvantage? I remember in the past that I felt that it should reduce your score each time you use it but that might not work.


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Old 02-12-2006, 03:02 AM   #150
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OH, that reminds me!

Sabers bust down the walls of Siege Korriban in two fast swings in Enhanced. Just FYI.


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Old 02-12-2006, 03:07 AM   #151
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Quote:
Or maybe have successful parries regen DP/FP when the player is fatigued?
Doh! Why didn't I think of that!! LOL

Quote:
I think it's an interesting concept as well and probably the best conversion idea for Rage so far. Maybe Rage should just boost DP/FP at any time in exchange for health or some other disadvantage? I remember in the past that I felt that it should reduce your score each time you use it but that might not work.
I can't decide on this one. I'll let lightofdarkness discuss this since it was his idea. I do think there should be something else besides health that it drains though.


I've been rethinking my original more powerful but risky turning swing idea. The fact is, the turning move is really ugly in the regular combat when it gets hit while turning without killing the person and I think it should be avoided as much as possible unless purposely done. I was originally worried that it would be too hard to avoid in this fast paced combat, but I think if players learn to anticipate what situations they will be done in, turning swings can be avoided until needed.

However, because this is very hard to learn, I think the penalties for getting hit when turning should not be very severe. Maybe only a little more DP damage than normal and the turning animation gets terminated. The Hitting you opponent with the turning swing should do only a little more DP damage but not cause stuns. Tavion, Blue, and maybe desanns style will have both getting hit penalties and hitting benefits less than the other styles. Maybe eventually, two turning swings colliding could lock like the fakes eventually will.

Hopefully, this will help stop players from unrealistically getting hit in the back and surviving it too often. I also think it will kill swing spamming and add more disipline to this system.


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Old 02-12-2006, 07:48 AM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lathain Valtiel
Sabers bust down the walls of Siege Korriban in two fast swings in Enhanced. Just FYI.
Pwned!

Err, that does change the dynamic of Korriban, but the real question is if we should do anything about it.

Quote:
Doh! Why didn't I think of that!! LOL
I assume that means that you think that concept is a good idea?

Quote:
turning move stuff
I assume you're referring to your earlier suggestion about making spin moves followed by an attack swing do more DP damage?


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Old 02-12-2006, 10:00 AM   #153
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Quote:
I assume that means that you think that concept is a good idea?
Yes


Quote:
I assume you're referring to your earlier suggestion about making spin moves followed by an attack swing do more DP damage?
And also yes, but modified for the reasons stated above. Doing constant turning strikes in this system drives me insane especially when we get hit in the back while doing them and just brush them off as if we weren't just hit in the back with a lightsaber!! So, I think we should be punished a bit for doing them and learn how to control them. Maybe when players start getting really good at controling turning swings we can increase the DP damage given and received when hit doing it, but at first it should be mild (and very very mild for the faster styles). I wouldnt be against making it cause a stun if the defender doesnt use the proper parry direction though, but if he does, it should still do DP damage to the defender.

And like I said before, the fact that players would now have to becareful about doing turning swings they would end up doing less "hold down attack" comboing, and I think this would prevent swing spam from becoming a problem.


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Old 02-12-2006, 03:33 PM   #154
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NO!

Don't give spin moves any bonuses, because you're all forgetting something...

The cheat that is yawspin, where after certain swing moves (I assume you mean stuff like a red swing in which you turn before delivering the attack) can be executed multiple times in one attack by making the character spin like a top. I'm pretty sure it only counts as one swing, but has multiple hits.


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Old 02-12-2006, 03:44 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lathain Valtiel
NO!

Don't give spin moves any bonuses, because you're all forgetting something...

The cheat that is yawspin, where after certain swing moves (I assume you mean stuff like a red swing in which you turn before delivering the attack) can be executed multiple times in one attack by making the character spin like a top. I'm pretty sure it only counts as one swing, but has multiple hits.
I never learned how to do the Yawspin and I'm not sure it even works for OJP enhanced. If it does, I'm sure Razorace could disable it somehow. With the Yaw spin disabled, it would be easy to hit people in the back when their turning and cause them DP damage. We even discussed slowing down the turns a bit so hitting them would be even easier further back in this thread. And like I said the damage increase for hitting would not be much. The real point of this idea is to get rid of that stupid turning attack in the combat unless intentionally needed....and to kill swing spam!

Come to think of it, I remember watching the Yawspin when I played base and I'm pretty sure it can't be done in Enhanced because all the saber hits bounce. Not to mention that the new view lock feature would probably kill this as well. Of course I'm no expert in this, but we'll see what Razor has to say about it.


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Old 02-12-2006, 09:39 PM   #156
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Hockney is right. Beyond the initial hit, yawspin is useless in Enhanced due to the bounce effect and viewlocking.

Anyway, I don't currently think that this turning swing idea will work. The spin moves are part of the way the animations handle transitions between different swing positions. Granting special powers to the transitions with spins would make the saber combat would probably make the saber combat damage levels feel very random. If we could actually gain control over the spin moves that wouldn't be the case but with the current animations we're stuck.


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Old 02-13-2006, 01:36 AM   #157
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Well, my point here was really to makle it something the everyone avoids doing but not make it completely useless. I figured it would also help people tell the noobs from the vets easier as well by how well they can control their turn hits. I don't really think it would make the hit damage seem random to anybody who knows the system: basically, you get hit when you try it, your turning move terminates and you lose DP or if you hit someone with it, they lose a little more DP than usual. Pretty black and and white as far as thats concerned, just hard to control not doing which would be its biggest but not impossible downfall. I guess it's not that important right now anyways

Curse those stupid turn moves!!! Is there anyway you could at least speed those animations up so they match the rest of the combo moves?

Have you thought anymore about reducing the force cost of cartwheels backflips, and maybe wall jumps? It might also be interesting if you could parry while you you do it. I was playing around with the cartwheels and wall flips today and had fun with trying to parry them while doing it. I think a few times it actually worked!! LOL. Anyway, having low level jumps like these cost less FP (maybe 3-5 FP) would help reduce the monogamy of just standing toe to toe (one of the complaints I've heard from some MB people who have tried it) as well as be true to the movies with only low jumps.

I also still really like your old idea of aborbing a kick with a backflip. Any plans on that?

I know, too many questions. But I want the next build to be another real ground breaker for OJP Enhanced saber system like 0.0.4 was (not that the other two aren't) as far as turning heads. I really wish I could help with the coding process, but right know I'm still struggling how to understand how to make scheduling and cash register programs in Java! LOL

I just had an interesting idea for down the road: For OJP vets, make a game mode where hits that you don't parry/block in the right direction for take a ton more DP and maybe a few other interesting features. For when vets start getting too good and saber fights last 10 minutes this might be an interesting option for them. I'm sure your new powerfake system will help make things quicker, but I'm sure the best will find a way to make fights take forever again.


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Old 02-13-2006, 02:19 AM   #158
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Well, I'll have to think about it some more.

I still haven't gotten to the cartwheels and backflips yet. It will just take time.

As for Backflips, I'll get to it. I'd still like to port the SP knockdown code before I add new features to the knockdown stuff.


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Old 02-14-2006, 02:39 AM   #159
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I just had a very big idea that I had to get down here, and I think you should pay close attention to it because I think this could really help back and forth combat some more focus and improve the over all combat greatly if its possible (I love run-on sentences!!)

This idea comes from the scene in Episode six where luke is overpowering vader and starts hammering on vader block until vader is too weak to hold the saber there and luke cuts off his hand.

First off, remeber this idea:

Quote:
I just had a quick idea in order to increase the skill of causing DP loss. when you parry someone and they are stunned in a DP > 50 situation, if your next hit on the his stun at the exact opposite on where his swing started it will do more DP damage and do DP damage even if he hits the right parry direction. I'm not sure how this would work with top-down swings though.
You said that the hit detection on the body was not good enough to be consistant in damage and I agree.

However, What if the person attacking the parry targeted the saber instead which from my experience, has great hit detection! I was playing around with it today and found that the opponents saber is still hard to hit when they are in the parry because they are drawing it back slowly; but it in not too hard especially if the person doing the parry times it so the attack gets parried with their saber in front of them. This idea has the following benefits:

1. This would add soooooooooooo much to strategy in doing parries and attacking them.

2. Because players will now be targeting the saber instead, it will make the fights look more movie realistic because the parried person is getting hit around the area of his saber rather than somewhere else on his body that he wouldn't be able to block!

3. This could be the balance we need to balance out defense against the new power fakes that have the potential to be used too much in in the way of attacking.

4. You could make the penalties for getting hiton your saber in a parry anything you want. I would suggest the following:

a. if the parried person hits parries the attack that hits his saber, they will still lose DP in a marginal amount.

b. If the parried person does not parry attack that hits his saber or hit the proper parry direction, he will lose more DP than if he parried it and also lose some FP.

c. If the parried person is using a style two styles weaker than the attacker and the parried person does not parry the incomming attack right, the parried person will get disarmed.

Of course this is all assuming that the parried person can actually parry when just his saber is hit. It seems to work that way normally so hopefully that won't be a problem.

Man I hop you like this idea and it can be done, because I believe it would totally be an incredibly benefitial edition to the saber system and make it even more movie realistic!


Just a quick suggestion: if you do decide to make the yellow arial special more of a "flip over your opponent move" I would suggest making the animation faster and the jump a bit further. I also think it should at least to a tiny bit of DP damage.

I sure you are so busy with school right now that you don't even want to think about new suggestions, but I really think the first one warrants full attention. And let me down easy if you think it sucks, because I love this idea .......really......... (starts sobbing)

LOL


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Last edited by JRHockney*; 02-14-2006 at 02:54 AM.
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Old 02-14-2006, 03:10 AM   #160
razorace
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You lost me there. So basically, the idea is that attackers would drain more DP by hitting the defender's saber vs their body? Would this be just during a knockaway animation that a player plays when they parry a blow?


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