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Old 01-20-2006, 10:41 PM   #1
Wilshire
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stormtrooper armor useless??

in ROTJ does it seem weird to you guys that arrows and laser shots to non-vital parts of the body can kill a stormtrooper with his armor on, while leia takes a hit and shakes it off in a matter of seconds to kill another imperial? and how in the world d o ewoks, with the upper arm strength of a 10 year old, manage to KILL stormtroopers in full armor by whacking them with sticks and stones?


sorry if this has been posted before, it seems such a blazingly obvious flaw

also what are your thoughts on the battle of endor? even though the emperor was killed, it seems to me like the massive fleet, no matter how incompetent, could have destroyed the rebels.
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Old 01-20-2006, 11:26 PM   #2
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you could explain that the trooper armor is poorly spaced and the troopers got knocked unconscious by the repeated knocking on the helmet.

i remember in the thrawn trilogy, i think it was in a book, that they talked about the emporer was actually sort of coordinating the entire empire fleet through the force and that once he was killed the empire fleet lost all of its organization and that was the reason they were unable to defeat the rebels.


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Old 01-21-2006, 04:22 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastcoast2895
i remember in the thrawn trilogy, i think it was in a book, that they talked about the emporer was actually sort of coordinating the entire empire fleet through the force and that once he was killed the empire fleet lost all of its organization and that was the reason they were unable to defeat the rebels.
Yeah he was using battle meditation same thing bastilla uses in KOTOR and nomi sunrider, anyway after losing the emporer all the imperial officers went into some sort of state of confusion.

As for the ewoks its not really said in the movie but it seems there was actually ment to be hundreds and hundreds of them gathered from all the tribes in the area so it was more a case the storm troopers where overwhelmed by the sheer number of them.

Also remember that storm troopers helmets vision seems to be terrible making it easy for the little buggers to suprise them.



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Old 01-24-2006, 05:28 PM   #4
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Stormtrooper armor provides more than just protection (or lack there of) against blasters and wooden arrows, it also has life support systems and temperature controlled body gloves, with utility belt with some gizmos in there. In case a trooper is out in the field and needs provisions while in war zones, or just doing basic patrols. Although your average Stormtrooper, atleast on screen, doesn't seem to bright to even realize this.

Also the helmets are specifically designed for each trooper.


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Old 02-04-2006, 04:32 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justus
Also the helmets are specifically designed for each trooper.
thats after the 501st leigon got too old so they started hiring non-clones.

The easy deaths can be explained. It's a sort of shock... i forgot what its called i think it begins with "Z" but its some sort of shock. Anyway when the laser, arrow, rock whatever hits the armour it emits a shock through their body knocking them out, paralyzing them or killing them. Not many people know that but it is right to what would really happen. notice the armour is inpenitrable, leaving no holes but they still "die" (sometimes they dont die as I said before)

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Old 02-08-2006, 08:35 PM   #6
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Basically we're stuck with the official explanation that the armor is awesome, the troops are awesome, but in the movies they suck. I guess it's a combination of character shields, plot/drama requirements and other non-suspension of disbelief stuff.

You could say the quality of training and armor budget went down after the Empire was established in its power, and the "Will of the Force" and other stuff. Perhaps there was a burecratic screw-up and Palpy actually sent his WORST TROOPS (not "best" troops) to Endor... Saying the troops were overconfident and un-prepared and the Ewoks and Rebels were just AWESOME as well as lucky is fine I suppose. I like the explanation that the clones were old men by this time.

It's been argued that no body armor will ever stop everything you could throw at it in the field, which is true. However, that the Empire can't design armor to resist stone-age arrows fired by midget creatures from bows and blunt trauma from sticks and stone-age axes handled by said creatures stretches it quite a bit. At least these primitive attacks shouldn't be able to take a Trooper out of the fight (even if we assume every single Trooper hit in such a way was not killed) in 1-2 hits like we see. We know they CAN design better stuff, at least according to the EU. Just about every Imperial unit that wears armor besides Stormtroopers and Scouts are listed as having "superior" armor. We even have super-hard Darktroopers. Arguing cost prohibitive also ignores the sheer size and resources of the Empire. We're forced to think they just didn't care about losing their men (which really doesn't make sense with Clones that take so long to replace). And yet the much more cash-strapped Rebels can afford some of this stuff... or else the protection they DO give their troopers doesn't seem to help anymore than not having it (so the Rebels are just fine to do without!). I mean if you're out to save money, and your trooper's armor doesn't help, why not just ditch it altogether? Just give them uniforms like the Imp Officers, with different rank markings...

Of course the "big dumb, army of doom" cliche in sci fantasy has to be upheld somehow...

Even if the Empire was using all recruited non-clones by this time (rather than "shanghaing a few guys here and there" like Lucas says was happening by this time), the Empire could still have afforded to recruit the best, so that's really no excuse. They also could have afforded to outfit their TIE Fighters with shields and hyperdrive quite easily. A lot of the handicaps given to the Empire's forces in the EU really forgets just how massive a galaxy-wide Empire that can build all these Super-Weapons in such a short time would be. Unless they really were just a step away from bankrupt... but still!


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Old 02-09-2006, 01:41 AM   #7
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Apparently it wasn't useless considering that the Stormtroopers kicked the Rebels' asses in battle, even when the Rebels had the tactical advantage (see the Tantive IV boarding).
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Old 02-09-2006, 12:16 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
the Stormtroopers kicked the Rebels' asses in battle, even when the Rebels had the tactical advantage (see the Tantive IV boarding).
How many rebels are on the tantive compared to the hundreds on a star destroyer? the rebels didnt even stand a chance so how is that a tatical advantage?


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Old 02-09-2006, 02:21 PM   #9
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There were about 8 boarding troopers and a shipload of Rebels.


Anyway, People always cite "the stormies armor didn't even stop arrows" which is untrue. What hit the stormtroopers was the constant assualt with rather large rocks. Even heavy armor can't stop the force by a large hit, it just prevents damage from a shot/blade strike. You still get bruised, and when you get enough of those hits (especially on the head) you get quite damaged. Surely some of those troopers got concussions.

The armor is not useless, just doesn't make them godly unstoppable machines.

I see it like a jockey cup, it minimalizes damage, but you still get bruised. But it could be a hell of a lot worse.


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Old 02-09-2006, 05:27 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Insane Sith
There were about 8 boarding troopers and a shipload of Rebels.
They were boarded by a star destroyer im sure there where more than 8 stationed on it.


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Old 02-09-2006, 07:15 PM   #11
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Still, 8 troopers took out a ship full of rebel soldiers. That's pretty impressive.


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Old 02-09-2006, 08:43 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Terros
They were boarded by a star destroyer im sure there where more than 8 stationed on it.
No, they were not boarded by a Star Destroyer. That doesn't even make sense. They were boarded by a small boarding party of about eight men. Not every Stormtrooper on the whole Star Destroyer would board a captured vessel.
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Old 02-09-2006, 09:03 PM   #13
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it might be just me, but i seem to remember a lot more STs and officers in the few scenes than just 8. that and that would make very little sense.

Commander: Lord Vader, we have the Princess' ship and bringing in.
Lord Vader: ....find the best 8 men we have and send them in....even though four or five will be killed, we will still have 3 or 4 left...adn dont fail me commander
C: but lorder vader...i need more men
LV: you can tell that to the Emperor when h....oops, wrong conversation...your future is clouded, i see.
C: whatever, about the boarding of the manned ship of rebels
LV: oh, 8 is enough...and send in that little one, Nicholas...he gets on my nerves
C: yes lord vader.

suggesting that they only used 8 STs in the take over of a Corvette is perposterous(ms?). why is that people only believe exactly what they see? of course there were only 8 STs....thats all I saw!!


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Old 02-09-2006, 09:07 PM   #14
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There were more seen because more boarded the ship after it was secure. But the boarding party that actually took the ship was about eight.
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Old 02-09-2006, 09:42 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
There were more seen because more boarded the ship after it was secure. But the boarding party that actually took the ship was about eight.
^

A boarding party is the group the first breaches the ship and secures the area. What was shown was the boarding party. They pretty much cleaned out the ship on their own.

After that, Vader came on board.


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Old 02-10-2006, 11:02 AM   #16
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Ill give you that a few came thru the door and were last seen chasing a few people down a corridor, but please tell me you dont actually believe they secured the entire ship before any more people were sent. At most they secured that immediate area, but size, numbers, and causulties dictate that 6 people--one died before steping in the ship and one soon after--do not have the manpower to take a ship as large as a Corvette as there are multiple levels as well as many rebels. this isnt the Falcon, you know.


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Old 02-10-2006, 11:25 AM   #17
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But how many of the ship's occupants were Rebel Soldiers? Surely not ever one of them. "Commoners" aren't going to put up a fight against a Stormtrooper... and even the movie hinted that the escape pods were being used...

ie - when they failed to blast the living hell out of the pod the droids took to Tatooine

Plus factor in that their ship was pretty much "swallowed" by the Destroyer. If you did escape the initial 8 onslaught.. where are you going to go? A whole Destroyer company is not my idea of a good plan "Hey let's put up a fight against a small city! We can win!.. err.. guys, where are you going.. guys?" hehehe...

I'm sure surrender was an option most of the Rebels took...if they were given the "luxury"...


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Old 02-14-2006, 03:58 PM   #18
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Well, this is not BF2, and you can't kill 1000 people on your own(including 2 jedis) as an engineer without dying...

But yeah Stormtrooper armor is pretty useful, esp when it comes with the whole environment control/communications/etc functions in it.

I would imagine the suit is designed to withstand laster type weapons rather than physical damage (like shock) though.

Also, we don't know if ewoks have weak strength. Fo all we care their muscle structure may be way stronger than humans. If their muscle structure is like that of a, say, chimp... then they are still a bit stronger than a regular human, given their small size.

Also not that there are like 12342 heavy rocks drooping on those troopers, from really really high places sometimes even taking into account the low-grav of Endor Moon, so some of them is going to hit an unprotected area, like the back of the neck or something, or maybe damage the environment control unit, possably overheating the poor trooper.

Anyhow, ewoks ate it big time due to the pollution of the Deat Death Star anyways.
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Old 02-15-2006, 01:53 AM   #19
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Yeah, it's a good theory, but not airtight. For example Leia takes out a Scout by slamming a stick (not piercing, but sideways) into his (armored) chest. If the Trooper armor is designed to resist blaster bolts, it seems to have done a poor job, since we never see them get back up again after being blasted.

Then again, perhaps you could argue it's one of those things where it just might save the guy's life rather than him just shrugging it off like nothing (like a modern day bullet proof vest.. it might still take you out of the fight, but you could recover without the wound being fatal). That would contradict the common rationalization that the Empire "doesn't care about it's soldiers" and this is why they don't put shields, hyperdrives or missiles on their fighters (though this too is an assumption, mostly based on game mechanics rather than the movies themselves).

Some have pointed out that the holes blown in troopers by blaster shots in the movies are smaller than the holes blown in walls by the same blasters. Nice, but of course it just goes to show that the armor is not quite effective with dealing with the weaponry they're going to be facing in combat. If it was so great, why don't the Rebels wear it too? (appart from the obvious "bad guys are faceless drones in scary suits" cliche of sci-fi/fantasy).

I guess you have to argue that she's unwittingly using Force enhanced strength in that case or something... (and/or that Scout Trooper's armor sucks worse than regular stormtrooper armor).

It should also be pointed out that although the Clones appear to be able to see through the dust and smoke when fighting droids on Geonosis (AOTC), they seem foiled well enough by R2D2's "smokescreen" in ESB.

Ah yes, Curtis Saxton's "Endor Holocaust" scenario.


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Old 03-04-2006, 04:52 AM   #20
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I hate ewoks, they make stormtroopers look bad! :P


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Old 03-08-2006, 07:16 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HUGOMAND
I hate ewoks, they make stormtroopers look bad! :P
no, they don't, stormies are bad as it is...


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Old 07-16-2006, 07:03 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastcoast2895
i remember in the thrawn trilogy, i think it was in a book, that they talked about the emporer was actually sort of coordinating the entire empire fleet through the force and that once he was killed the empire fleet lost all of its organization and that was the reason they were unable to defeat the rebels.
Apparently due to his Battle Meditation. Very interesting that.
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Old 07-16-2006, 08:29 AM   #23
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Apparently due to his Battle Meditation. Very interesting that.
Ah thanks for posting what was said right underneath the post you quoted.
Damn i wish people would read through threads before posting.


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Old 07-17-2006, 05:11 AM   #24
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Not THAT old.

I was aware Terros. I was merely remarking that it was interesting. Geez.
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Old 10-22-2008, 01:24 AM   #25
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How the "Rebels" could have won:

Howard (Trooper 1): Ok, Jim will distract them when they come in and we'll pick them off one at a time.

(Stormtroopers come in)

Jim (Trooper 2): Hey you, look at me! 1 h@z a r3d h3lm3t!1!!

Stormtrooper 1: Number 2, you go after him, we'll stay here and make sure Lord Vader is safe on arrival...

Stormtrooper 2: (Runs after Jim) Get over here!

S2 turns a corner and all that's left is a white corpse

After Vader came... I dunno, pray? Strafe and hope he dies?





Which brings another question: Even though it's just a game, how come Heroes can be killed by two soldier-type infantry? (Battlefront II)








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Old 10-22-2008, 08:17 AM   #26
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Which brings another question: Even though it's just a game, how come Heroes can be killed by two soldier-type infantry? (Battlefront II)
Like you said, it's just a game. That's for the sake of balance and good game mechanics.



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Old 10-22-2008, 10:47 AM   #27
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and how in the world d o ewoks, with the upper arm strength of a 10 year old, manage to KILL stormtroopers in full armor by whacking them with sticks and stones?
You forget that the stormtroopers are never actually shown to be killed by the ewoks. You also forget the scenes where it shows the ewoks tripping over each other retreating from the AT-STs.

Stormtrooper armor itself is designed to protect against shrapnel and the like, not laser fire. Laser-resistant armor would be too expensive or bulky to mass-produce.

Quote:
also what are your thoughts on the battle of endor? even though the emperor was killed, it seems to me like the massive fleet, no matter how incompetent, could have destroyed the rebels.
The Empire lost the orbital battle because of the destruction of two command ships: the Executor, which was seen in the movie, and a main communications ship which IIRC was shown in the novelization. The loss of both of them threw the Imperial fleet into disarray.


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Old 11-14-2008, 12:10 PM   #28
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Well, I always think that the stormie armor is designed to be a simple enviro suit as well as anti-blaster protection against small arms and the link. Obviously any blaster and weaponary the rebels are using would be military grade and not the ones used by some simple thugs.


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Old 11-15-2008, 08:31 PM   #29
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[Quote-PoiuyWired]Obviously any blaster and weaponary the rebels are using would be military grade and not the ones used by some simple thugs.[/quote]

Why? Wouldn't the Rebels be using Mafia-esque weaponry instead of military grade stuff? Just because of the simple fact of cost? Military Grade Weaponry is almost always going to cost more than your basic gun that you can pick up at Bill's Gun Store.

And, if Stormtrooper Armor is just supposed to be a basic enviro-suit and small arms protection, then why wouldn't the Empire include projectile protection? Slug throwers are still in use by the era of the Empire. (See Galaxies and Book 2 of the Thrawn Trilogy) After all, it costs money to train Stormtroopers, and I'd have to imagine that it costs more to train them than include projectile-protection.

---
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKA-001
You forget that the stormtroopers are never actually shown to be killed by the ewoks. You also forget the scenes where it shows the ewoks tripping over each other retreating from the AT-STs.

Stormtrooper armor itself is designed to protect against shrapnel and the like, not laser fire. Laser-resistant armor would be too expensive or bulky to mass-produce.
I have to contentions to make.

First, dealing with the first statement: Sure, they're never shown being killed by Ewoks, but who wants to watch Stormtroopers being killed by blunt trauma? It's not pretty, and it would probably jack the rating of the movies up to the "R" range, instead of the "PG" it got in the States. Also, where do you supposed all those Stormtrooper helmets in the end of RotJ came from? Somehow I don't think that they simply surrendered, and there weren't enough Rebels to be dispatched out to any group of Ewoks that captured Stormtroopers. The raiding party can only consist of -I think- fifteen some people and some supplies -capacity of a Lambda-class shuttle. So, the implied message is that they were killed by Ewoks.

Second: Based on what knowledge? I don't have any knowledge about the manufacturing processes involved in Star Wars, nor what it would take to create blaster-resistant armor. But, I still have to think that it costs more to train a new soldier than it would to create good armor.

---

Basically it boils down to: The Empire's Evil And Thus Must Have Crappy Hardware Even Though "Only Imperial Stormtroopers Can Create These Accurate Of Blast Points".


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Old 11-16-2008, 07:54 PM   #30
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The storm-troopers are the backbone of the Empires "infinate" (accoarding to General Rham Kota ^_^) Army. Things had to be mass produced--and I am sure that even the Empire had somewhat of a budget. You just cannot produce good armor when you have to supply it for so many people, it just costs too much. Yes, they gave good armor to those that were trained extensively and were much more skilled beings that went on covert, dangerous missions.

I myself see the stormtrooper armor as essentially an environment suit that regulates temperature, ect. while to an extent, protecting you from the environment around you. It might protect you from light arms fire, and that isn't even saying much. And as someone here said, shrapnel. Makes sense to me.

Mind you--this is purely spectulation.

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Old 11-16-2008, 09:17 PM   #31
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Now imagine if those stormtroopers were Phase III Darktroopers... the BoE would've probably been in the Empire's favor... just probably








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Old 11-16-2008, 09:39 PM   #32
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Actually, a handful of Phase IIs would probably have been more than enough.


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Old 06-19-2009, 11:23 PM   #33
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I have been wondering this for years, and I agree completely. They might as well run around with no armor.


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Old 06-20-2009, 12:53 AM   #34
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Old 06-20-2009, 10:37 PM   #35
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Is that a bad thing? ^^^


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"They'll hunt me; They'll condemn me; Set the dogs on me; Because that's what needs to happen. Because sometimes, the truth isn't good enough. Sometimes, people deserve more. Sometimes, people deserve to have their faith rewarded. Not because they want to, not because of chance, but because they deserve to."

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Old 08-18-2009, 03:31 PM   #36
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in ROTJ does it seem weird to you guys that arrows and laser shots to non-vital parts of the body can kill a stormtrooper with his armor on, while leia takes a hit and shakes it off in a matter of seconds to kill another imperial? and how in the world d o ewoks, with the upper arm strength of a 10 year old, manage to KILL stormtroopers in full armor by whacking them with sticks and stones?


sorry if this has been posted before, it seems such a blazingly obvious flaw

also what are your thoughts on the battle of endor? even though the emperor was killed, it seems to me like the massive fleet, no matter how incompetent, could have destroyed the rebels.
the actors in the ewok suits cant realy hit has hard as real ewoks can in real life
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Old 08-18-2009, 03:43 PM   #37
Te Je'karta Mand'alor
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the actors in the ewok suits cant realy hit has hard as real ewoks can in real life
yeah but i don't think that's what he means. ewoks are weak
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Old 08-19-2009, 08:29 PM   #38
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yeah but i don't think that's what he
means. ewoks are weak

Yes, that's true scavangerman....but don't forget brave and cunning, they can be smart little suckers when they want to be.


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Old 08-22-2009, 01:58 AM   #39
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Old 08-22-2009, 08:24 AM   #40
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Yes, that's true scavangerman....but don't forget brave and cunning, they can be smart little suckers when they want to be.
but they still kill troops with sticks
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