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Old 03-11-2006, 12:53 AM   #81
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The good thing about the OED, and the reason I refer to it over lesser sources, is that it cites the earliest known and intended uses of a word. You can't beat the OED for definition and origin. All others simply cater to colloquialism and mistaken usage.


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Old 03-11-2006, 03:07 PM   #82
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Origin is very important, but common usage arguably defines a language (at least in the long term). After all, if you're speaking the english language in public and say the word "gay," unless you're quoting some old Christman carol, everybody assumes you mean "homosexual"* even though that's not the word's origin. It is part of the design philosophy of dictionaries of course whether go this way or that.

*though among certain young people and internet kiddies, it's commonly used as a synonym for "sucks" (ie: worthless). Online to avoid confusion with homosexuality, some have taken to altering the spelling to "ghey."


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[French, from Old French.]
Word History: Bigots may have more in common with God than one might think. Legend has it that Rollo, the first duke of Normandy, refused to kiss the foot of the French king Charles III, uttering the phrase bi got, his borrowing of the assumed Old English equivalent of our expression by God. Although this story is almost surely apocryphal, it is true that bigot was used by the French as a term of abuse for the Normans, but not in a religious sense. Later, however, the word, or very possibly a homonym, was used abusively in French for the Beguines, members of a Roman Catholic lay sisterhood. From the 15th century on Old French bigot meant “an excessively devoted or hypocritical person.” Bigot is first recorded in English in 1598 with the sense “a superstitious hypocrite.”

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Of course I can see why holding to this might appeal to you, at least on a certain level.

On a lighter note:

Quote:
bigot

A person who is religiously attached to a particular computer,
language, operating system, editor, or other tool (see
religious issues). Usually found with a specifier; thus,
"Cray bigot", "ITS bigot", "APL bigot", "VMS bigot", "Berkeley
bigot". Real bigots can be distinguished from mere partisans
or zealots by the fact that they refuse to learn alternatives
even when the march of time and/or technology is threatening
to obsolete the favoured tool. It is truly said "You can tell
a bigot, but you can't tell him much." Compare weenie.

[Jargon File]

Source: The Free On-line Dictionary of Computing, © 1993-2005 Denis Howe


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Old 03-11-2006, 03:23 PM   #83
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"You can tell a bigot, but you can't tell him much." - Jargon file, The Free On-line Dictionary of Computing
Best. Quote. Ever.

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Old 04-02-2006, 03:03 PM   #84
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Justice Scalia when a Herald reporter asked the conservative jurist his response to people who question his impartiality on matters of church and state. The gesture was made inside the Cathedral of the Holy Cross, and was reported to have said, “To my critics, I say, ‘Vaffanculo,’ ” while making the gesture. That’s Italian for f*** you.

Gotta love the underground theocracy that seems more and more to exist in this nation.


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Old 04-02-2006, 03:28 PM   #85
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Aye, I hate it when Christians behave contrary to how we're supposed to while still defending only the cultural part.


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Old 04-02-2006, 05:28 PM   #86
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Old 06-05-2006, 10:53 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toms
So then... following this line of reasoning too far... if marriage is a civil/governmental institution, and the US constitution bans religion from interfering with government...

..does that meant that hetero-only marriages are unconstitutional?
Pardon me, but the US Constitution bans government from interfering with religion, not the other way around.


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Old 06-05-2006, 11:05 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
Pardon me, but the US Constitution bans government from interfering with religion, not the other way around.
It prohibits the "mixing" of the two in general, the Pope can't manipulate things in Washington D.C, and the President can't manipulate things in the Vatican (or anyplace more local for that matter).



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Old 06-05-2006, 11:48 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmac7142
It prohibits the "mixing" of the two in general, the Pope can't manipulate things in Washington D.C, and the President can't manipulate things in the Vatican (or anyplace more local for that matter).
Care to quote the passage in the Constitution that says that?


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Old 06-05-2006, 11:48 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
Pardon me, but the US Constitution bans government from interfering with religion, not the other way around.
Separation of church and state...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
Care to quote the passage in the Constitution that says that?
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
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Old 06-06-2006, 12:24 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Separation of church and state...
Not in the Constitution. Comes from Thomas Jefferson's letter to a group of Baptists in Connecticut who were concerned that the government was going to regulate their free exercise of religion.



Quote:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
You just proved my point. The First Ammendment, as you just quoted, is about the government getting involved in establishing a State Religion or preventing people from exercising their beliefs. It does not say that religious people can have no influence over the government.


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Old 06-06-2006, 12:33 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
Not in the Constitution. Comes from Thomas Jefferson's letter to a group of Baptists in Connecticut who were concerned that the government was going to regulate their free exercise of religion.
The concept behind freedom of religion IS separation of church and state. The two are essentially the same thing. You can't have freedom of religion without the separation. This all goes back to the Enlightenment when things came to be secular, like the Constitution, a godless document.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
You just proved my point. The First Ammendment, as you just quoted, is about the government getting involved in establishing a State Religion or preventing people from exercising their beliefs. It does not say that religious people can have no influence over the government.
No, your point was that religion COULD get involved in government, which is not true. No law can respect a religious establishment... that's what it says. Some states in the South (the "Taliban" states that have it on the books that atheists cannot speak in court, etc.) have made efforts to make Christianity the official state religion. And it seems that our current President has tried to put as much religious doctrine in the law as possible... so much for the freedom of religion set forth by our Founding Fathers (who, for the most part, rejected religion), eh?
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Old 06-06-2006, 12:49 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
This all goes back to the Enlightenment when things came to be secular, like the Constitution, a godless document.
Actually, ancient Israel had it long before the (so-called) Enlightenment. The Judges and then the King were not allowed to be priests.


Quote:
No, your point was that religion COULD get involved in government, which is not true.
And where does the First Ammendment say that? It is talking about what Congress can and cannot do, not what churches can and cannot do.

Quote:
so much for the freedom of religion set forth by our Founding Fathers (who, for the most part, rejected religion), eh?
I suggest you take a closer look at the personal letters of the Founding Fathers. You will learn that, despite what the public school history textbooks say, most were men strongly grounded in the Christian faith.


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Old 06-06-2006, 01:38 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
And where does the First Ammendment say that? It is talking about what Congress can and cannot do, not what churches can and cannot do.
Churches cannot become involved in government... Congress shall pass no law respecting an establishment of religion. How could churches become involved in government if Congress can't be involved with them, according to the Constitution?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
I suggest you take a closer look at the personal letters of the Founding Fathers. You will learn that, despite what the public school history textbooks say, most were men strongly grounded in the Christian faith.
O rly. I challenge you to pull up some quotes showing so. Because all the quotes *I* have read prove the exact opposite.

http://www.anotherperspective.org/advoc550.html
http://www.postfun.com/pfp/worbois.html
http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/s...7/secular.html

Read all those quotes... and see if you still believe that the Founders were all good God-fearing Christians!
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Old 06-06-2006, 09:47 AM   #95
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Quote:
I suggest you take a closer look at the personal letters of the Founding Fathers. You will learn that, despite what the public school history textbooks say, most were men strongly grounded in the Christian faith.
SWEET ACTION! Appeal to tradition/history! Man I haven't had one of these fallacies in a long time.

Founding fathers were slaveowners.

Quote:
And where does the First Ammendment say that? It is talking about what Congress can and cannot do, not what churches can and cannot do.
Semantics don't work here mate. First Amendment states what Congress can and cannot do yes, and it does not interfere with the operations of a church. However if a Church interferes with the operation of the government that is not Constitutional, thus Congress must uphold the First Amendment allowing equal religion for all. If one religion influences the government then religion is not equal for all.

Might I remind you that the word God is not found anywhere in the Constitution for this very reason?

By any chance Jimbo, is your name David R. Starr?

Quote:
Webster’s dictionary defines religion as “a system of beliefs and conduct”. Why can atheists have a system of beliefs and conduct (religion), but Christians cannot? I would call this censorship. You want our religion out of government so you can have your own religion in government. But, you forget that this country was founded as “One Nation Under God”! God establishes nations and he established America.

Please read the first school textbooks used across our country for the first century of our nation that were published by Noah Webster. Please then decide if you believe that the framers of the Constitution (including Webster) wanted God out of our schools and government.
Found this while googling.




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Old 06-06-2006, 10:36 AM   #96
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There's also the practical problem of just exactly WHO'S version of religion is to get incorporated into our government if we choose to go that route (or perhaps, depending on your point of view, have that path forced upon us...)

There are literally hundreds of types of Christianity in this country right now, and several different types of Judaism. And that's just the Judeo/ Christian faiths... I guess anybody not of those faiths is out of luck and will have to be officially disenfranchised and discriminated against by the ruling government for choosing the wrong path to salvation.

So... which particular strain of Christianity gets to choose what's best for all of us? Catholics? Baptists? Greek Orthodox? Mormons? Seventh-Day Adventists? Christian Scientists?

Seems to me all those groups have some fairly incompatible doctrines with each other, and if one manages to get prominence over the others that will effect how the others get to practice their faiths.


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Old 06-07-2006, 01:22 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
O rly. I challenge you to pull up some quotes showing so. Because all the quotes *I* have read prove the exact opposite.
Okay, here you go.
George Washington's personal prayer journal
Numerous Founding Fathers
John Adams' National Proclamation for a Day of Fasting and Prayer
Samuel Adams, John Hancock, John Jay, et al

I think that pretty well shows the faith of many of our Founding Fathers.

Oh, and for good measure:
Supreme Court judgement declaring, "This is a Christian nation."


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Old 06-07-2006, 03:09 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
I think that pretty well shows the faith of many of our Founding Fathers.
Don't forget that Deism was quite popular at this time.

Besides, so WHAT if the Founding Fathers were Christian? There is plenty of arguing amongst Christian denominations. Do you mean to imply that the Founding Father created this nation solely for Prodestants? The Founding Fathers came to the table hoping to construct a government that represented the People--NOT their god. They weren't interested in setting up a government that served their personal lives or their whims. They wanted a government that could serve the general necessities of all people.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/trinity.htm

And not only that, but I don't really care what the hell some judge from 1890 thought. What if America woke up tomorrow and everyone was compelled to convert to Buddhism? Would America still be a Christian nation?

Times change.
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Old 06-07-2006, 01:25 PM   #99
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It goes back and forth, so knowing the facts helps.

People claim all the Founding Fathers were Christians, then somebody else claims none of them were Christians, etc. The truth is some of them were and some of them weren't.

Today we can say America is a "Christian nation" in the only sense we can really agree on that is a majority of Americans identify themselves as "Christian." Of course what exactly that means may vary greatly from person to person.


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Old 06-07-2006, 04:41 PM   #100
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I figured you would have your quotes as well... fair enough.


There was an interesting quiz posted by Skin a while ago... I suggest you take a look at it:

http://www.ffrf.org/quiz/ffrfquiz.php

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
I think that pretty well shows the faith of many of our Founding Fathers.
According to that quiz: John Adams, John Q. Adams, Millard Fillmore and William H. Taft were Unitarians. Jefferson was a Deist/Freethinker. Harrison, Johnson, Grant and Hayes were not members of a church. Lincoln was a Deist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
Strange, because here's what the United States declared in a treaty with Tripoli, ratified by Congress and signed by President Adams:

"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquillity [sic] of Musselmen . . . it is declared . . . that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
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Old 06-07-2006, 05:46 PM   #101
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@TK-8252 -
I have to agree with Jimbo Fett66 on his case. A quiz holds no weight over the Consitution or Bill of Rights. What is important is that the Constitution and Bill of Rights holds steady.

Quote:
Bill of Rights
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitut...tml#amendmenti
When you are talking Founding Fathers, from the looks of things, Congress cannot force people into religion. In contradiction to that, Religion is protected by congress, and they can freely become involved with the government.

The Amendment does not say "Religion shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."
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Old 06-07-2006, 06:50 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthMethos
A quiz holds no weight over the Consitution or Bill of Rights.
Never said it did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthMethos
When you are talking Founding Fathers, from the looks of things, Congress cannot force people into religion. In contradiction to that, Religion is protected by congress, and they can freely become involved with the government.

The Amendment does not say "Religion shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."
I refer you to Mike's post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Windu
Semantics don't work here mate. First Amendment states what Congress can and cannot do yes, and it does not interfere with the operations of a church. However if a Church interferes with the operation of the government that is not Constitutional, thus Congress must uphold the First Amendment allowing equal religion for all. If one religion influences the government then religion is not equal for all.
By saying that Congress can neither advance nor inhibit religion it is establishing a separation of church and state. Church cannot become involved in government and government cannot become involved in church. This is the idea behind the whole "freedom of religion" thing. To argue otherwise is to argue with Thomas Jefferson.
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Old 06-07-2006, 08:25 PM   #103
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Are you talking about Thomas Jefferson's personal ledgers? Could you please clearify?
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Old 06-07-2006, 09:49 PM   #104
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As long as we're talking about the American founding fathers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundin..._United_States

Also, rccar328, congratulations on your (upcoming or current) marriage.


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Old 06-07-2006, 10:17 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Also, rccar328, congratulations on your (upcoming or current) marriage.
Thanks...it's coming up fast, two weeks from Saturday.

I can't wait.


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Old 06-07-2006, 11:20 PM   #106
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w00t, upcoming rccar329, rccar 330, and rccar 331 baby triplets.


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Old 07-06-2006, 06:33 PM   #107
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Congratulations! You scored 16 correct out of 21!

14 - 17: Congratulations! Better informed than most Americans


It should've had an option to inform the site you were non-American. From the form underneath it I gathered it was intended for Americans only.

Oh well, I've lived in the States, so I almost count.

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