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Old 02-01-2006, 01:06 AM   #1
RobQel-Droma
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Are Arren Kae and Kreia the same person?

Found this on Star Wars Wikicities, something I haven't seen before. Kind of interesting:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikicities: Arren Kae (Behind the Scenes)
There is some debate whether Kae is Kreia. They do indeed have something in common—they were both female Jedi Masters, both taught Revan, and both were exiled from the Order. Evidence put forward by supporters of this theory includes the fact that both Kae and Kreia are referenced as being Revan's first master and Atris' exclamation "Kreia? That is not her name". However, Kae is said to be exiled because of the birth of her child, and Kreia to be exiled for Revan's fall. As for Atris saying "Kreia? That is not her name," it may not mean her name is Arren Kae, but that her name is Darth Traya. Thus speculation on the subject is ongoing.
And then the other one on Kreia's page:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikicities: Kreia (Behind the Scenes)
There is an ongoing dispute as to whether the Jedi Arren Kae and Kreia are the same person. Evidence in the game indicates that both Kae and Kreia were both Revan's first and last master. Additionally, Kae was also exiled from the Order.

Furthermore, their names bear a distinct similarity. Kreia's name is pronounced as if it were an amalgam of the names "Kae" and "Traya." This is possibly in keeping with the character's personality. Given that she turned her back on both the Jedi Council and the Sith, instead embracing the Gray Philosophy, it is possible she combined her names to create a new one, much in the same way she combined both Light and Dark Side knowledges of the Force. The name similarities could, on the other hand, be striking coincidences.

Beyond etymology, however, there is also the confusion surrounding the events of Kae's death (no body was discovered) that help to fuel this argument, as well as a statement made to Kreia by Master Kavar "I thought you died in the Mandalorian Wars" towards the end of the game, when she is recognized by the assembled council. While this argument is ongoing, no one can conclusively prove their case, so it remains in the realm of speculation at this time.
Any thoughts?
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Old 02-01-2006, 01:15 AM   #2
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I don't want to know. If Handmaiden is really a spawn of Kreia then i will be disturbed, and disappointed.
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Old 02-01-2006, 01:19 AM   #3
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It is an interesting idea, though. Maybe it might be resolved in KOTOR 3, if Brianna is in the game.

But I keep having recurring visions of a female Darth Vader shouting, "No, Brianna. I am your mother!"
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Old 02-01-2006, 01:34 AM   #4
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I don't think so. If Obsidian wanted Kreia to be the Handmaiden's mother, they would've stated it directly somewhere in the game, and the Handmaiden says her mother died on Malachor V.


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Old 02-01-2006, 01:37 AM   #5
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I doubt that. I don't think that there was a need for them to come right out and say "Oh by the way, I'm your mother!" As for her mother dying thing, how could she know, since she wasn't there? Besides, it says in my original post that the body was never found.
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Old 02-01-2006, 09:32 AM   #6
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I would be very surprised if Kreia was the Handmaiden's mother. It doesn't make sense to me. But of course, if Kreia was Handmaiden's mother then it would be just one more reason why Kreia tells a male Exile to avoid mating with her, heh-heh. But seriously, wouldn't there be something more between Kreia and the Handmaiden if the Handmaiden was Kreia's daughter?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikicities: Arren Kae (Behind The Scenes)
There is some debate whether Kae is Kreia. They do indeed have something in common—they were both female Jedi Masters, both taught Revan, and both were exiled from the Order.
I never got anything from the game where it stated that Arren Kae, the Handmaiden's mother, trained Revan. Also I searched thru the dialog files and found only 3 references to Arren and all 3 were referring to her as the Handmaiden's mother but nothing was said about her teaching Revan. I would need to see a verifiable game reference before I would even begin to accept this idea as fact.

And besides, Handmaiden and Kreia sure don't look anything alike. Someone needs to do one of those computer simulated age progressions on the Handmaiden to see what she would look like in another 30-40 years. I feel confident Handmaiden would still be better looking than Kreia.


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Old 02-01-2006, 10:07 AM   #7
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Nice stretch, but I don't think so.

Why would you have something as intriguing as Mom and daughter meeting up, even sharing the same ship, and it not be addressed?

I believe if that were the case, we'd have had some reference or a sub-plot or something.


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Old 02-01-2006, 11:09 AM   #8
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Cygnus and Hai Wan: Why do you (and the others) think that for some reason it would have to be adressed in the game? Maybe the devs were thinking about this, but didn't put it in, and just left it to be speculated. But there is no need (as I said before) that there would have to be something in the game about it. In fact, I would be suprised if Kreia did reveal it. ("Bye, I'm off to the Trayus Academy, Oh, by the way I'm your mother Handmaiden.") I just don't see her doing that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hai Wan
I never got anything from the game where it stated that Arren Kae, the Handmaiden's mother, trained Revan. Also I searched thru the dialog files and found only 3 references to Arren and all 3 were referring to her as the Handmaiden's mother but nothing was said about her teaching Revan.
Well, seeing as I have seen numerous other sources saying that Arren tought Revan (even in the trivia thread here), I would think that that would be enough.
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Old 02-01-2006, 11:53 AM   #9
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Sorry Rob, but I doubt it. There's just not enough evidence to convince me.
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Old 02-01-2006, 12:13 PM   #10
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Im not really sure, i have thoght about it. But can't make up my mind, but i wouldent be suprised if she was Handmaiden mother.
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Old 02-01-2006, 12:39 PM   #11
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Lordy, I sure hope not.


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Old 02-01-2006, 12:45 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor
Sorry Rob, but I doubt it. There's just not enough evidence to convince me.
But there is enough evidence to go the other way, too. I see a lot of striking similarities and coincidences there, and it is quite enough evidence it seems like. While it may not prove that they are the same person, you can't honestly say that there is no chance. You say why, I say "why not?"
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Old 02-01-2006, 05:01 PM   #13
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Sources can say all they want, the didn't provide any proof. I don't think Kae taught Revan.


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Old 02-01-2006, 05:15 PM   #14
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You guys don't get this. Let me explain: (please read closely). Assume she really is Arren, and the Jedi Masters knew. Now they never refer to her as "Kreia", or "Traya." They just say "she" and "her." Now, what if Arren really did train Revan. When you talk to Kreia later, she trained Revan, and if they are the same person, then so did Arren. But Arren is not mentioned because Kreia is no longer "Arren" any more - she is Kreia. So really, "Arren" and "Kreia" trained Revan. That would explain also why the Council never used her name, because she had two.
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Old 02-01-2006, 05:48 PM   #15
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Well, unless we get proof that Kae trained Revan, there's no way to know if she's Kreia.


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Old 02-01-2006, 05:54 PM   #16
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But if Kreia is Kae, then Kae trained Revan. So, if they are the same person, it all works out. I doubt you can find anything that will say she isn't.

Edit: Alright, sorry for double posting, but I felt like this was worth it. Look at this, I finally found one of these sources.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
Well, the Disciple claims that Arren Kae was one of the masters that trained Revan at some point.
Incidentally, Stoffe also thinks Kreia = Arren. But anyways, if you want to PM stoffe and verify this, Stoffe can probably go through the dialogues and tell you where he says this. I'm guessing that Hai Wan only looked through Kreia's dialogue?

So, not only do you have what I said before (the "if Kreia is Kae and Kreia trained Revan then Kae trained Revan"), you have this. I think this will clear up these doubts.

Don't double post like that again Rob! Use the edit post feature. -RH

Last edited by RedHawke; 02-02-2006 at 12:53 AM.
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Old 02-01-2006, 06:48 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CountVerilucus
I don't want to know. If Handmaiden is really a spawn of Kreia then i will be disturbed, and disappointed.
I couldn't agree more.


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Old 02-01-2006, 08:04 PM   #18
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^Too late now. Now, thanks to me, you will probably have this in your mind every time you speak to the Handmaiden.

And for everyone else, if you didn't notice, I double-posted above JediShemL - I would recomend reading my post.

I combined the Double Post, please don't do that again Rob, especially only a couple hours apart, a day or so maby you can double post an update like that, only occasionaly mind you, but not within a few minutes/hours. Use the edit post feature. -RH

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Old 02-01-2006, 08:10 PM   #19
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First, I wish to clarify that I didn't state Kreia wasn't Arren Kae, only that I would be quite surprised if this was the case. I think it would be an interesting plot twist if it was though.

Can it be definitely stated that Arren Kae is Kreia? I don't see how but I agree that neither can it be stated that she definitely isn't Kreia. There just isn't enough factual information available to know, unless there's something in a KotOR novel or comic that I'm not aware of.

For those interested in where stoffe -mkb- posted the quote that RobQel-Droma referred to.
Link to stoffe -mkb- post about Arren Kae
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
Well, the Disciple claims that Arren Kae was one of the masters that trained Revan at some point.
Perhaps one reason why I haven't seen this in the game is because I haven't played the Exile as a female with the resulting consequence of not having the Disciple as a party member.

My only argument at this point is that there is no dialog in the game where it is stated that Arren Kae was one of Revan's masters. Of course, this contradicts what stoffe-mkb- says but neither did stoffe-mkb- offer a direct quote. However stoffe-mkb-'s statement does make me question whether or not I was searching correctly so I'll do another search on the dialog files when I get home. I used tk102's FindRefs Utility to search all .dlg and .tlk files for the word "arren" I only came up with three references, two in Kreia's .dlg and one in Handmaiden's and all three were having to do with Arren Kae being the Handmaiden's mother.

FACT: Kreia was one of Revan's masters.
FACT: Arren Kae was the Handmaiden's mother.
HYPOTHESIS 1: Kreia and Arren Kae are the same person
HYPOTHESIS 2: Arren Kae was also one of Revan's masters

If someone can offer solid evidence that makes hypothesis 1 true then hypothesis 2 automatically will become true. At this point I don't know anything that can prove or disprove hypothesis 1. My only argument is that there is nothing in the game that supports hypothesis 2 although IIRC Kreia does state that Arren Kae was a master. I'll have to post the dialog quotes when I get home.

Oh yes RobQel-Droma, I'm not going to PM stoffe-mkb- about this. If stoffe wants to post on the thread then I'm sure stoffe will.

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Handmaiden from handmaiden.dlg
She was a Jedi, her name was Arren Kae.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreia from kreia.dlg
I knew her mother. She was a Jedi Knight - a master, named {ERIN}Arren Kae.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreia from kreia.dlg
The Force flows strongly in the blood of those born from Force Sensitives. I doubt that Arren was any different. If the servant of Atris is of her blood, then the potential lies within her.


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Last edited by Hai Wan; 02-01-2006 at 11:59 PM.
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Old 02-01-2006, 08:26 PM   #20
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Well, it seems very possible now. Too much to be one big accident...I think something else is going on...


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Old 02-02-2006, 12:46 AM   #21
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Well, I searched for instances of 'kae' in the dialog files and found the statements by Disciple that stoffe-mkb- referred to in the trivia thread. Very interesting. Things that make you go hmmm...
Spoilerizing for those who may not want to know.
spoiler:
All the following were taken from disciple.dlg
Entry 260 - Revan had many Masters. Zhar, Dorak, Master Kae before Kae left for the Wars. Towards the end of his training, he sought out many to learn techniques.
Entry 261 - It is said that he returned to his first master at the end of his training, in order to learn how he might best leave the order.
And then interestingly enough Kreia does something here, using her Jedi powers or something as she is quoted ::Jedi:: in entry 263. And then Disciple says:
Entry 265 - {A little confused}I do not recall who Revan's master was... strange.

Entry 275 - Master Zhar taught Malak - and Revan had many masters, including Zhar, Kae, and Dorak... and towards the end of the training, Revan sought out many other teachers to learn certain techniques.
Entry 276 - As a Padawan, Revan was trained by Master Kae, before she was exiled. Strange, I do not recall who Revan's master was after that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hai Wan
My only argument at this point is that there is no dialog in the game where it is stated that Arren Kae was one of Revan's masters.
Duly retracted. I believe I was correct in saying that there is no game dialog that states Arren Kae was one of Revan's masters but it does state that Master Kae was. Since in all probability Master Kae and Arren Kae are the same person I was... w-r-o-n-g.


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Old 02-02-2006, 02:06 AM   #22
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Quote:
I believe I was correct in saying that there is no game dialog that states Arren Kae was one of Revan's masters but it does state that Master Kae was.
Uhm, all you had to do - whether male or female - was speak with Mical in the Jedi Enclave. The line of dialogue in which he states, "Zhar, Dorak, Master Kae before Kae left for the Wars." and a few others are there.

We have had this ongoing discussion over at ObsidianEnt.com's forums for a while. I will quote some of the points I tried to stress, but if you want to read the entire thread, go to forums.ObsidianEnt.com. But here's some cut-and-paste of some of the points I made of them being one and the same.

Quoted from ObsidianEnt.com

Quote:
Also... one of the biggest arguments used to derail the Kreia=Kae Theory is the manner of exile they 'both' supposedly received.

The argument is:
Kreia was exiled because every student she trained was viewed as a failure. Every one disobeyed the council and followed Revan to war. And her most promisingpupil became the Dark Lord.
Kae was exiled because "the shame of her birth was revealed". What you learn is that she fell in love with the Echani general, Yusanis, and became pregnant. She eventually gave birth, and was exiled from the Jedi Order. She later died in the War and no remains were ever found.

The biggest problem with this base argument is this.......Who told you this information?

KREIA!
Quote:
The part of information about Kae falling in love, and becoming pregnant by Yusanis, and dying in the Mandalorian War (with no body being found) can be learned from both Mical and Brianna as well. However, everything outside of this limited information is learned from Kreia, and Kreia alone.

However, something comes to mind when I think of this...

PC: "You have been lying to me from the very beginning."
Kreia: "Yes, from the moment you awoke..."

And isn't it also curious that Kae is Revan's only master noted to have fought in the Mandalorian War. Not only that, but she is also the only to be firmly noted - by name - to have died. Then, standing before the Jedi Council, Kreia was roughly greeted with, "I thought you had died in the Mandalorian Wars"?
Quote:
Thought for the Day:

As I stated before, the excuse of who was exiled for what goes out the window when you look at the source of the information. Kreia is the only one who tells you why both she and Arren were exiled. But could you be absolutely sure that she was ever telling telling the truth? If she is Arren kae, and she did not want you to know it, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that she would tell you a lie?

Plus, the story of Kae being exiled for becming pregnant and giving birth does not fit in to the era that these games take place in. Many Jedi during this time frame have been married, and have had children. Sometime multiple times.

Also, the information that you receive from other sources almos discredit, completely, the information Kreia gives you. Mical tells you that Revan had many masters, "Master Kae, before Kae left for the war." He never once mentioned that she was exiled, either it be for getting pregnant or any other reason.

Now follow this next part closely...Brianna tells you that her mother, Arren Kae, went to war; and it was while fighting in the war that Arren fell in love with Yusanis and became pregnant. Then, shortly after having given birth to Brianna, she is believed to have died in battle. Never once do Brianna tell you that her mother was exiled, never once does she tell you her mother was, in the least, scolded for have gotten pregnant. For both Mical and Brianna, you only know that Kae did go to war. But only after having already gone to war did she meet Yusanis, fall into love (or lust) and get pregnant. And then she is believed to have died. No disgrace is ever mentioned (unless you count going to war as a disgrace), and no 'Exile of Master Kae' is ever mentioned.

I'm sorry, but even if Kreia's story is true, the order of events in which she told them is very faulty, and would already discredit it.
BTW, this last quote is being said in the context that Kae's exile never appeared in-game; it is cut dialogue.

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Old 02-02-2006, 11:08 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clone L68362
Well, it seems very possible now. Too much to be one big accident...I think something else is going on...
Exactly my thoughts. Too many coincidences, I doubt all these could just be accidents. BTW, sorry if I didn't come off very well in my last few posts, or ticked some of you off.

Oh yeah, and sorry about the double post RedHawke. Thanks for editing it for me though.
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Old 02-02-2006, 12:33 PM   #24
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I would like to believe they are the same person, but the timeline does not seem to work out. The Exile was in exile for 10 years. If he came back right after the end of the Mandalorian Wars, which lasted 5 years, Briana could only be 15 at most. She is definitely older than 15. Sorry, Rob, but intriguing as it is, it just does not fit.


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Old 02-02-2006, 01:13 PM   #25
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^Just wondering - Where do you get those dates? And another thing I would also like to know, how do you know how old Brianna is? From what you are saying, 15 is the minimum. What if he didn't come back right after the Mandalorian Wars? Besides, we don't know when exactly Arren had Brianna.
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Old 02-02-2006, 01:24 PM   #26
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This was also an argument over at Obsidian. But the counter claim is that... do you know for a fact that she isn't only 15? No. But what we do know is that she is youngest of her sisters. And how many are there of them? Also, Natalie Portman was supposed to be a 15 year-old Queen of Naboo while she was 19(?). And Leia was originally supposed to be 16 years old in ANH. Though this changed with Episode III, which made the character older.

It is not far-fetched at all to consider Brianna as 15. It doesn't change anything in my opinion.

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Old 02-02-2006, 03:03 PM   #27
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Okay, I'm an idiot!

Ya know, I was just thinking ("...a dangerous pastime."), and the age of Briana is irrelevant to whether Kreia is her mother. Proving her age does nothing to prove or disprove if Arren and Kreia were one and the same. Please forgive the Alzheimer's Moment.


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Old 02-02-2006, 03:18 PM   #28
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we also don't know if her species gave birth in a litter!!! so maybe all her sis if of the same litter, which explains alot.
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Old 02-02-2006, 04:56 PM   #29
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How could Arren possibly have been one of Revan's masters if she was only the rank of Jedi Knight?

When Kreia was in the Jedi Order, she was at the rank of Jedi Master. At this same time, Arren Kae was in the Jedi Order, and she had only achieved the rank of Jedi Knight.
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Old 02-02-2006, 05:15 PM   #30
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Quote:
How could Arren possibly have been one of Revan's masters if she was only the rank of Jedi Knight?
The term 'knight' is a broadly used term for the Jedi. You have the official title, Jedi Knight, meaning a padawan who has passed the trials successfully. Then you have 'Jedi Knights', meaning all of the Jedi Order. Believe it not, Jedi Masters or considered Jedi Knights, but they have achieved a higher position. But to not carry on about this, I'll just quote Kreia;

Kreia: Her mother was a Jedi Knight, a Master, named Arren Kae.

and Mical;

Mical: Zhar, Dorak, Master Kae before Kae left for the Wars.

She was a Jedi Master.

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Old 02-02-2006, 08:19 PM   #31
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I just want to put in my two cents about Handmaidens mum. Brianna says that her father left to join the Mandalorian Wars to be with Arren Kae, they did not meet during the war. She also remarks in the difference that was in him when he returned which means Handmaiden had to have been old enough to remember her father leaving. My guess would be that she was about 10. Add ten more years to that and you have the events of K2. Handmaiden is about 20.

Handmaiden also mentions that she never saw her mother, that Yusanis kept her and raised her with her sisters.


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Old 02-02-2006, 09:18 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Exilus
How could Arren possibly have been one of Revan's masters if she was only the rank of Jedi Knight?

When Kreia was in the Jedi Order, she was at the rank of Jedi Master. At this same time, Arren Kae was in the Jedi Order, and she had only achieved the rank of Jedi Knight.
Wasn't Obiwan just a Jedi Knight when he was Anakin's Master?
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Old 02-02-2006, 10:55 PM   #33
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The only thing I can't understand is the age. Kae had to have been OLD during the Mandalorian Wars, for her to be as old as Kreia in TSL. It's awfully complicated.


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Old 02-02-2006, 11:25 PM   #34
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Maybe Kae was. But there is the other problem - just like Brianna, we really don't know how old Kreia was either. Sure, she seems old, and is probably around "ancient", but it might not be quite as old as we think.
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Old 02-03-2006, 11:26 AM   #35
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One thing I noticed, but may not mean anything:
Atton says that Kreia may have been beautiful once, but now she has wrinkles from hard living. Later, the other handmaidens say that Echani women usually have a face like their mother.


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Old 02-03-2006, 11:29 AM   #36
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That may be something, I don't know. As Atton says, Kreia has wrinkles from "hard living", so we don't really know what she once looked like. If it was similar to the Brianna's face, that might be even more evidence. Of course, even though everyone said Brianna was different than the other Handmaiden's, I for some reason couldn't tell.
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Old 02-03-2006, 01:52 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
As Atton says, Kreia has wrinkles from "hard living", so we don't really know what she once looked like. If it was similar to the Brianna's face, that might be even more evidence.
I think you're just looking for an added twist to the story that just isn't there.


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Old 02-03-2006, 06:05 PM   #38
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And I think you're just ignoring all the evidence for this little "twist".
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Old 02-03-2006, 07:31 PM   #39
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I know that whereas before this thread I didn't think there was any important connection between Kreia and the Handmaiden's mother but now I think there is definitely something going on there. I've added the Arren Kae/Kreia question to my list of things I hope will be addressed in the next KotOR game.


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Old 02-04-2006, 01:03 AM   #40
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Me too. Hmm...Revan killed Yusanis...I wonder, if Kreia is Kae, what happened after that...


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