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Old 02-06-2006, 03:02 AM   #1
Rebelknight
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was there even an answer?

There is alot of debate on repait times for fleet ships. Some are saying that it was sped up for the demo, while others say that the repair time is right with instant repair after a battle. I was hopeing that this would have been answered in the last Q&A section but it wasn't. Anyone know how we can find out for sure?
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Old 02-06-2006, 04:10 AM   #2
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So far, repairs are instant. This makes for a nasty tactic. Just build up a large fleet and go planet hopping blowing away all before you all over the place.

Since all your damage is repaired instantly, you will be like a rolling stone just wreaking havoc on the opponent. It will be a rush to get the large fleet to go mow over the galaxy without a repair to slow you down.
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Old 02-06-2006, 04:40 AM   #3
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Well if that is the case then it is a major major flaw, that everyone will exploit, and will compromise the strategy element of the game. I hope they fix it.
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Old 02-06-2006, 07:18 AM   #4
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Nop they said that you need the space station to initiate reparations. They also said that the builiding time will depend on unit/structure size.



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Old 02-06-2006, 02:19 PM   #5
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Repairs are instant. We experimented with persistant damage, maintainance costs and such, but found that it added nothing but confusion and frustration for players. The build times were greatly sped up for the demo - for example some build times that are normally 2 minutes were set to 20 seconds in the demo (those of you who mod the demo should be able to see the real build times and costs in the XML).

There are many things that balance out the instant repair: the ease of destruction of ships, build times and cost, unit and money caps on planets, the leveling cost of space stations, construction prerequisites, retreat attrition damage, etc. We didn't just make the instant repair decision lightly; many factors went into the decision.

As to the "mass fleet of doom" tactic, it's not likely that this will work in a prolonged campaign, at least until you get to end-game situations (and by then it is acceptable). To do this you would likely have to strip most of your planets of defenses, which would leave you open to attack.

I would suggest that you try the system over a lengthy campaign once the game comes out. I personally feel that it works pretty well.


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Old 02-06-2006, 02:33 PM   #6
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Thanks for clearing that up Torpid, interesting decision.

I hope it does work well, and i believe if the game is balanced as you have said, it should be the sensible way to work repairs.
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Old 02-06-2006, 02:55 PM   #7
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for the first time since I ve heard about this game I am actualy having second thoughts on buying the game. The mass fleet things going to happen. If you say so or not. If hes barrel rolling over my planets and I am losing income, then how can I mount an attack when I am trying to get the mass fleet off of me. All the good work that went into the game and now hearing this has shattered all hopes and dreams I ve had for this game since day one.
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Old 02-06-2006, 03:08 PM   #8
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In theory you can still do hit and runs, and raids to cripple the Empire....

You make a squadron of Y-Wings, X-Wings, A-Wings, and a couple of Corvettes and gunboats, send them into the fight and concentrate on protecting the Y-Wings until they can destroy whatever target you were after, while the fighters do cover... And I imagine you could probably do raids on planets deep inside their space...

While I played a modded version of the demo I found myself leaving nothing but structures and garrisons on my planets, and keeping fleets in a defensive pattern, since I found ships couldn't go from one planet to another directly when they're a few sectors away, I figured out which planets they'd have to go through first and setup fleets there, leaving my ass a target... If raid fleets can go through these without a combat, then you should be able to attack one of their ass end planets, wont affect their masive fleet, but it should do enough to make the enemy spread out their fleet to provide enough protection so as to avoid future raids....
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Old 02-06-2006, 03:24 PM   #9
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We experimented with persistant damage, maintainance costs and such, but found that it added nothing but confusion and frustration for players.
With all due respect but what players ? Any player who like the strategy will love to have those options in the game. On the other hand if you talk about a la warcraft and starcraft players then is normal for them to be confused since all they know to do is to click as fast as possible on shortcuts and on icons. They don't even think they rush. The tower rush killed the AOE 1 and 2 which forced dev team to set only limited number of towers in AOE3.

Having to plan my retreat in case if something goes wrong is the part of the strategy. Weakening the ennemy is the part of the strategy. Resupplying the fleet and making necessery reparations is the part of the strategy. Having to secure supply lines is the part of the strategy.

But after all may be I'm too old and I ask too much whereas young guys all they want is the fast action with minimum time of preparation before engagement.

IMHO taking out the 3d and making 2.5D was the good move but making instant repairs was the bad decision eventhough you tryed to compasate with pop cap and the weakness of ships.

Unfortunately this will not be fixable with mods unless making construction time insanely long.

The pure strategy game magazines will not miss you with this one.


Quote:
You make a squadron of Y-Wings, X-Wings, A-Wings, and a couple of Corvettes and gunboats, send them into the fight and concentrate on protecting the Y-Wings until they can destroy whatever target you were after, while the fighters do cover... And I imagine you could probably do raids on planets deep inside their space...
You don't get it arent you ?

If you face a large fleet there is no way for you that you can destroy some hard points on capital ships before retreating becase the repairs are immediate.

Imagine this.

You found out that your opponent is massing a large fleet to attack you. Your fleet is on the other side of the galaxy and all you have are cuple of X-wings and Y-wings.

You decided to pay him a litle visit and to strike some hard points which should help you later or at least buy you some time because he would initiate repairs.

With the actual system this isn't paying off because as soon as the battle has ended repairs are done it is just like you did nothing. You will have to destroy an entire ship. If your oponent isn't stupid or a total noob he will have patrol boats to prevent bomber runs. You will not be able to destroy all hard points of the ship before your bombers are wiped out.

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Old 02-06-2006, 03:41 PM   #10
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but it could still be added as an optional feature for those who like it

like some advanced difficulty options

would love to have that option
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Old 02-06-2006, 03:43 PM   #11
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so far every decision they've made in all of these tough situations, I have not agreed with one of their decisions. Hopefully we can mod the game to fix these probelms me and other players will not like. If only they went into the direction of strategy more than arcade, man how more amazing the game can be. Hey game prob will still be amazing!


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Old 02-06-2006, 03:53 PM   #12
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If you do it right then you'd go in, take out smaller ships first, and then retreat, rebuild your fighters and launch another hit and run... Go for the smaller ships first, then take on the larger ones... The corvettes and gunboats would soak up fire from the patrol craft...

The build times take longer in the final build... So, let's say a Star Destroyer takes 2 minutes to build, well you can fly in there with a small strike force and take out, have the A-Wings lure enemy fighters away and towards a couple of corvettes, while the X-Wings and gunboats go with the Y-Wings and attack either the hard points on the Star Destroyer, or work on taking out the frigates and patrol craft... As you destroy those craft, well it's going to take some time to rebuild and reposition them.

Assuming Star bases have to be fully upgraded to build all ships, and that Star Destroyers will only be buildable on those four planets that are in the mod, then as you destroy craft, unless it's at a production planet, then getting his losses back will take some time.

Fighters are expendable and take very little time to build, so say you send in 5 Y-Wings and you lose 2 squadrons, and a 3rd to the retreat loss, well you only need to build 3 in a few moments, while the enemy has larger ships that need to be rebuilt. If the empire wants fighters they need to build ships with hangers... Those whips will take time to rebuild....


It's a good system, it'll just take alot of effort to be able to pull off proper hit and runs.... It can be done... For the fleet to be balanced right you'd need a bunch of corvettes and destroyers, if you offset that balance just right, you'll cripple the fleet and be able to bring in yours to make up the difference....
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Old 02-06-2006, 04:00 PM   #13
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I agree with Darth_Torpid-PG on this one.

Two Reasons
1) it feels more Star Wars ish. You never see battle damage being a factor.

2) You cant use the big flet method. Those rebels are crafty. You have to defend every planet or something is going to get raided big time. Cant tell you how many space stations I have lost playing the demo mods, thinking that way enought to defend a planet. Also the big fleet thing might work at the very end which is good no, running around dragging the game out forever. Once the tide has clearly turned it will be over in a grand sort of way.
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Old 02-06-2006, 04:16 PM   #14
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Quote:
f you do it right then you'd go in, take out smaller ships first, and then retreat, rebuild your fighters and launch another hit and run... Go for the smaller ships first, then take on the larger ones... The corvettes and gunboats would soak up fire from the patrol craft...
Those small ships are ant-aircraft ships. The main goal of every raid is to take our or to dammage targets of hihg importance such as ISD or VSD.

@aggie_john

It isn't about how good does it feel it's about giving a little bit of salt to the game.
In movies (since you started to refer to them in the first place) the Empire was unable to knock out the rebelion even with its hughe fleet because supply lines were stretched across the galaxy and were vunerable to the rebelion attack. It's a major problem of every army. Guerilla war is all about hit the ennemy make some dammage to vital targets and run.

I sincerly hope that this game will not turn into another generals or command and conquer ? I really put some high excpetation on this game but as it is for now all RTS games on the market have pale-faced strategy.

Man I really miss MAX time.



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Old 02-06-2006, 04:16 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orao
With all due respect but what players ? Any player who like the strategy will love to have those options in the game. On the other hand if you talk about a la warcraft and starcraft players then is normal for them to be confused since all they know to do is to click as fast as possible on shortcuts and on icons. They don't even think they rush.
I totally aggree on this. There are Real Time Strategies out there, and there are Real Time Strategies as well...one category is strategy as it meant to be, the other is an FPS where you control a bunch of guns, without being a specific one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orao
Having to plan my retreat in case if something goes wrong is the part of the strategy. Weakening the ennemy is the part of the strategy. Resupplying the fleet and making necessery reparations is the part of the strategy. Having to secure supply lines is the part of the strategy.
I believe that a good RTS, scifi or history-based, should first take a serious look to what's happening in the real wars. All the above are simply real war tactics/demands for victory and in my humble opinion are not that "difficult" to think, even for a newbie. Besides, hunting the enemy to death, even if that sounds by far cruel (we talk about war afterall), is in many circumstances the point of a long-term attack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orao
But after all may be I'm too old and I ask too much whereas young guys all they want is the fast action with minimum time of preparation before engagement.

The pure strategy game magazines will not miss you with this one.
I don't think age has to do with what a RTS should implement, and of course, we're not referring to hard-core RTS gamers, but those that play strategy games and not the above-mentioned "FPS-look strayegies".

Non the less, nor RTS magazines, nor the a logical RTS gamer will ignore the many, many wrong decisions taken, in favor of...i don't know...No offence taken, the game still looks nice, but "in favour of balancy issue", it was butchered...

Diplomacy was completely wiped out, wiping out with its turn the 99% part of what the Galactic Map could offer as a turn-based feature. Now, all that it does, it's moving forces here and there. The "statistics" screen only reminds something of some good diplomacy features...

Instant repair is the finishing stroke.
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Old 02-06-2006, 04:23 PM   #16
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I bet you Petroglyph is looking at this going "Now you know how we felt!"
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Old 02-06-2006, 04:27 PM   #17
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why din't they just make it take time to heal? Repair over time. No maintance points to do it just make it take time. This I feel is the ONLY bad part of the whole game. Again something that makes since to everyone but the people who are building it.
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Old 02-06-2006, 04:30 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nakatomi2010
I bet you Petroglyph is looking at this going "Now you know how we felt!"
I don't know how they regard players/customers and i don't think they're the kind of people "we grabbed your money, now tell whatever you want", since they proved the contrary so far, not only by statements by with their whole interactivity.

Besides, we're not trying to blame anyone, it's just a personal (and not only, obviously) opinion that must be heard and not gulped down, if we want to see better (<-- biased word of coursed...) RTS coming up.
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Old 02-06-2006, 05:00 PM   #19
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*Makes mental note* So they must make repairs in... Hyperspace!

It has all become clear now!

They don't have enough Palpatine approved viewing materials on those ISDs, so they put those crews to work repairing the ships while in hyperspace! What's the matter Colonel Sanders? Chicken of working outside the ship while in hyperspace??! Never fear, we have a whole army of astromech driods to do the dirty work! What do you mean they left? Restraining bolts found in the toilet!? *begins force choke*
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Old 02-06-2006, 05:23 PM   #20
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Here is my "simple solution" to the persistant damage debate...

Why not just use the game clock to determine repairs?
Each day is broken down into, I think, 6 squares. Why not allow each ship to repair 5% of EVERY hard point when a time sqaure fills up. By oversimplifying it, there would be no need to micromanage. You could also build buildings which aid in repairing, say adds 5% each time square. If there are 6 sqaures per day, each ship repairs 30% a day, which I think is feasible. Or you could just make smaller ships repair faster than larger ship. Just an idea...
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Old 02-06-2006, 05:46 PM   #21
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I don't think the mass fleet tactic is going to happen. Your going to have to concentrate all your money to building a fleet, and not to mention if you want ISDs or Mon Cals you have to control specific planets. Then you will have to spend all money on the fleet leaving your other planets exposed. Not to mention to get money you need planets. So your gonna have to capture planets some how, but you wont be able to because you wont have money. Therefore your oponent will be able to capture the rest of the galaxy and then build their fleet and whip you out.

Persistant repair isnt necesary. I always hated maintenance cost in Rebellion. If you want persistant damage so badly, go buy Rebellion it has it


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Old 02-06-2006, 06:06 PM   #22
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And I can tell you how to make it work in 64-bit
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Old 02-06-2006, 07:44 PM   #23
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Some of you have hit the nail on the head.

While we are aware that many of our customers like you are very strategy savvy and enjoy all of the details, many others are people who have never played an RTS or strategy game in their lives and purchase the game because it is Star Wars. Part of a designer's job is to balance a game such that it will appeal to both extremes. It's not easy to do, because you just can't please everyone.

Not adding repair was not an idle decision. There were many focus tests throughout the entire development period. Many things were removed based on these tests, and many things were added. The post-battle damage and maintenance system was one of those things that got cut. It just didn't add any fun, and in fact frustrated and confused many of the players.

But I think this is one of those issues (like religion and politics) that no matter what I say you will form your own opinions – and there’s nothing wrong with that. My PERSONAL belief is that the game is better for not having to worry about repair costs and time. Really, only playing the final game will prove your point or mine. For now, all I can really do is forward your concerns to the rest of the team, and watch the reactions of the fan sites. Time will tell


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Old 02-06-2006, 08:20 PM   #24
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What kinds of people made up these Focus Groups? just curious.


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Old 02-06-2006, 08:47 PM   #25
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I'd love to be in that group... *sigh* No one ever lets me be part of fun things....
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Old 02-06-2006, 08:53 PM   #26
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This was probably a good decision, given how it's relatively easy to blow up a ship with a couple bomber squadrons or other capital ships. In the full campaign, you probably won't ever launch a hit-and-run with only a few Y-Wing squads; a hit-and-run raid fleet will probably contain enough forces to destroy a few enemy ships before retreating. Instead of causing many ships damage, you destroy a few...the net effect is the same. That "giant wipeout fleet" may not incur persistent damage, but any ships lost will be remembered--imagine if the fleet encounters a dozen Y-Wing squads on each planet it visits, and loses a Victory Destroyer each time it invades. The attrition will still build up. I'm sure this won't impact the strategy or enjoyment in the full game.

Darth_Torpid, thanks very much for your continued involvement!


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Old 02-06-2006, 11:39 PM   #27
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I use my Fleet of Doom backed up with a 'supply fleet' right behind it to replenish any loss.

Blitzkrieg used in WWII, the more planets I quickly grab, more money, snow ball effect. The other player has no chance to ever recovered.

My supply is not stretched out since I am slamming the planets with troops for more income as I go (Galactic Time is stopped and you get a bonus income for taking a planet pays for itself). Plus as the Empire, my Tie fighters and Bombers are free and respawn too.

Then you get this message "Player left game".
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Old 02-06-2006, 11:46 PM   #28
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Could we not make an option that would turn repair on and off? Is this even doable?
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Old 02-06-2006, 11:50 PM   #29
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The Big Fleet of Doom tactic won't work unless you're opponent is, well, clinically dead. By the time you can get enough rescources, planets, and whatnot to build a sizable fleet, it will be pretty late on in the game, and, like I said, technically speaking your opponent should have just as many ships as you do by that point, unless he fell dead while playing early on in the game.

Yeah, I'm one of those anal people that like to move my ships around and send them back for repairs, monitor thier status, plan ahead for what I'll do with them or where I'll send them when they're repaired, etc, but I can live without it really. I've had my share of that in Rebellion.
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Old 02-06-2006, 11:53 PM   #30
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THeres no thought into the effects the battle will have. I might win the battle, but half of my ships are beat to crap and back. NOpe not now, I won therefore my fleet is New and unused. Just does not make since to me.
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Old 02-07-2006, 03:02 PM   #31
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Not necessarily new and unused, but repaired...think of the Millennium Falcon in The Empire Strikes Back. It kept running into Imperial Forces, barely escaping, they'd head back to the engine compartments and fix stuff, encounter Imperial forces again, etc. Think of it as your crew jerry-rigging fixes to the problems that come up on board. After all, in the galactic map, technically time is elapsing at a very fast rate, so there would be a chance for the enemy to repair their damage while you put together another attack fleet. Let the game play a little bit--the full game, not a hack of the demo--and see if this really is a problem.


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Old 02-07-2006, 04:24 PM   #32
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Hey Wedge just forget about Lucas's point of view and think in terms of RL. The big ship gets holes in her's hull during the battle. If there is no dry dock there is no way to repair them. We are talking here about ships which are as large as 7 km. How are you supposed to make repairs right in combat, it has no sens ?

Another thing which is missing is the crew. The ship is only as good as its crew is. However we have no crew managing here. But that isn't the point of all this.

You were talking about not being able to make large fleets of DOOM, well those fleets will happen no matter how hard you tried to balance the game those tactis are happening unless you implement some things from real life.

Yeah I know you need ground forces to conquer the planet but you can also build large invasion army which supposely will let all yours other planets unprotected with the pop cap system.

Ok let's discuss about this matter in terms of pop cap. This system is double edged system. More planets you take from the ennemy and less units he will be able to build and more planets you conquer more units you will be able to support.

Now all you have to do is to conquer the planet.The planet which just have been conquered will be able to build it own units to assure self protection.
Because no minimum military presence is needed to assure the loyalty of the planet the attacking player will be able to take all ground forces for its next move before the planet has finished the building of its own units.

Attacked player dosen't have time to reorganize and to launche the counter-offensive. No ,all he can do is to hope that he will be able to counter attack somewhere else and to reastablish its initial pop cap.

This can be called the gras hopper technic and it will be so devastating that at the end you will see ppl rushing like crazy in MP.

And just to awnser to Darth_Torpid-PG :

I don't consider my self as a hard dying strategy player but some minimum things should be there. We got the problem with repairs atm. I beleive that you did all your best as well as the dev team in general to balance this game but some things are just natural. After battle ressuplying and reparations are needed. This is not complicating the game at all since this can be automated by the game it self.

All the non instant repair system is doing is preventing the attacking player from rushing from one planet to another while giving a chance to the attacked player to reorganize.
@popcorn2008

Well I wasn't talking about the maintenance cost just about repairs.

P.S.

I'll still buy this game even if I'm buying it with the greatest fears about its gameplay in MP. I'm buying it to support the dev team because they showed us that they communicate with their customers and because they appear to support the game. It's a very very rare thing those days.
I can only hope that mods will make this game more suitable for my kind of game style.



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Old 02-07-2006, 05:34 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orao
Hey Wedge just forget about Lucas's point of view and think in terms of RL. The big ship gets holes in her's hull during the battle. If there is no dry dock there is no way to repair them. We are talking here about ships which are as large as 7 km. How are you supposed to make repairs right in combat, it has no sens ?
Since when did Imperator/Imperial's become 7 kilometers long?

Sorry, I'm from Canada, and that seems a TAD too large to be a Star Destroyer, quite argueably the largest ship in Empire At War. (Length Wise.)

Quote:
You were talking about not being able to make large fleets of DOOM, well those fleets will happen no matter how hard you tried to balance the game those tactis are happening unless you implement some things from real life.
This is for the arguement (Don't know who made it,) about the hit-and-run tactics used by Fighters or similar:

And there have been many a time where I took a fleet of Xwings, Ywings, and Awings into an Enemy Space area, and came out the victor. Just because they have corvettes doesn't mean they are impervious to proton bombs. Splitting your Y-Wings into two groups (Capital-based and Corvette-based) will allow you to maximize your attack, and having the Xwings and Awings provide cover.

It may not be doable in the Full game, but it is now. Capital ships are usually my last wave if I cannot get through the defenses.

Also, this is not the real world. It's Star Wars, and the entire Galaxy has a population of like... Trillions. Coruscant's population dwarfs Earth's by many times. It's impossible to not use big fleet tactics, since the Empire has that capability. Remember, you are in control of what the Empire does, not the History of Star Wars.

-arkodeon

P.S. Darth Torpid: Love the engine. Even though repair was not doable, there may be a way for the modding community to figure it out. Is there any chance that, similar to the Venator and the V-Wings, that you will be able to include the repair code in a "Do Not Use" folder, or similar, so that the modding community may 'tinker' with it.

Oh yeah, GREAT Venator models, btw. LITTLE OFFTOPIC, but whatever. (Venator = <3)
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Old 02-07-2006, 06:00 PM   #34
Admiral Raven
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To be honest I'm not too bothered whether ships instant repair or not. Although I can understand people finding it annoying that this is the case I find it quite sad that people are actualy thinking about not buying the game just because of little things like certain ships not being included and instant repair being put in.

I think this is going to be a great game in the end and a game which combines space battles and ground assault is something I have wanted for a long time.
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Old 02-07-2006, 06:11 PM   #35
Orao
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If it's all you wanted then I can may be send you my copies of Imperium Galactica 1 and 2. It's the concept which was implemented back in 1995.

Just for note. As I said in my PS I'll buy this game despite reparing system not being implemented.

@Akodeon

From star wars wikipedia

Quote:
All Imperial-class variants are said to be 1,600 meters long (approximately one mile), with three large, and four small engines capable of accelerating the ship with a force of several thousand g and a hyperdrive capable of carrying them across the galaxy in a matter of weeks. Imperial-class Star Destroyers have a complement of at least 37,000 officers and crew.
So making repairs on 1 mile long hull during battle is something doable in your eyes ?



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Old 02-07-2006, 06:43 PM   #36
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I didn't mean to target you in particular Orao I was just saying that I get the feeling that people are going off the game over things which I personaly don't think will effect it too much but of course I respect everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
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Old 02-07-2006, 07:07 PM   #37
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Oh well this just answered some of my questions. I run a mens dorm for a college. There were 17 of us that were die-hard on getting the game....until I announced this last night with all of them. 17.....2 are still die hard and the rest are debating now that the fleet of doom idea has made us wander..... were looking at the idea of trying to MOD damage into the game. One of my guys even tried the fleet of doom idea on a modded version with it on hard and it worked. Rebellion took it too far and This seems to not take it far enough......myself? I canceled my preorder until I make a decision when the game is released next week. I know that sounds harsh, but thats alot of cash with a baby on the way and a mailbox full of bills for a game I seriously see me getting mad at and not playing.

Rebel
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Old 02-07-2006, 10:34 PM   #38
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To me, the best option is relatively fast repair (since you do have lots of crew...) or make another unit group that you must put on whatever spacecraft that repaires that specific spacecraft
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Old 02-07-2006, 11:07 PM   #39
Slocket
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In the demo, notice there is a negative cash flow for a few seconds called "rehabilitation fund". This can be exploited plus others that will actually make the gameplay much more fun for all.

The way the game is now, it is a "Saddle Point" situation for all you math savy folks. Once one said gets the edge, the ball rolls down hill in his favor. The winner gets extra income for the planet, plus an extra population total point, deny both form the losing side. It will snow ball quickly into a complete rush.

I think to give the losing player a chance and stop the snow ball giant fleet, make them have a maintenance cost to keep ALL units space and ground, plus undeveloped planets in hold. Thus it would take alot of money for the winning team to hold onto such a huge hold on the galaxy; meaning the losing player can actually fight back (this is called negative feedback in engineering).

Instead of when you conquer a planet and get 'paid' a bonus for it - make it cost you money to represent the choas of converting the indeginious people. Plus make the planet produce negative cash for you until it is developed with mining and buildings (this represents employment and wealth for the people).

I do not know though how to make a maintenance cost for space and ground units; but I can do the planets easy enough. This would help slow down a planet grabbing rush.

I think maintentance cost should have been included to counter balance the saddle point snowball effect of a galactic rush. If a wining team has 60% of the galaxy, you are pretty much going to lose unless you do this. Of course certain planets have strategic bonus and there are choke points etc.

So once the full real game is out (not the demo) if Rushing is a problem, there is some thing we can do to stop it (if it really is a problem). Else, people are just going to quit the game if your in MP once they start losing. Single player is no problem, the AI is never smart as a human.
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Old 02-07-2006, 11:20 PM   #40
Capstani
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The is a line in each capital ship's files... ie. from the Calamari cruiser's:

<Maintenance_Cost>0.3</Maintenance_Cost>

So there is a maintenence cost, it seems.
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