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Old 02-16-2006, 02:04 AM   #1
Kyle Kelasheski
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Lightbulb A COMPREHENSIVE review of OJP E, Feb. '06

Hello Everyone!

Am I ever sorry that I was away from this splendid mod for so long. I ended up getting caught in an “infinity loop” with a fouled up installation of JA. For some reason, Windows wouldn’t uninstall it completely, deleting the files didn’t rectify the issue, and I was thus unable to install a fresh version of the game. I finally followed through on some rather detailed instructions from LucasArts regarding my situation, and after some nervous file hunting and deleting, I was finally able to reinstall JA, and thus the latest build of OJP E.

I really look forward to once again participating in OJP E.

Here’s my short review: WOW! Great work! Here’s a million dollars for all your strenuous efforts!

Now here’s my lengthier, more detailed and (hopefully) more meaningful review…

This post is VERY detailed. I hope you have the patience to read through it all. If I didn’t feel as strongly as I do for the immense amount of work that’s been poured into this more than worthwhile endeavor, I wouldn’t have poured as much time and thought into writing this review.





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BUGS

1. While it may be available in other game types, there is no ability to specify the game-ending score for Team Free For All.

2. There are no maps listed for the Siege game type.

3. For some reason, it seems like every time an electrostaff (that one that came with the very popular and superb MagnaGuardVM model, available here: http://jediknight2.filefront.com/fil...aGuardVM;55831 ) makes a kill that the game immediately crashes to the desktop. Since this model is SO popular, it’s perhaps prudent to investigate why this is occurring and integrate this weapon into the mod. There has only been one duel out of a dozen where I was able to conclude a duel with a MagnaGuard, and that was when it was occupying the first bot/player slot.

4. This build of OJP E seems fairly unstable compared to the last build I played half a year ago. For no apparent reason, it seems like it crashes to the desktop at least once every half an hour, and this is with a game that avoids using the MagnaGuardVM model and its electrostaff (see Bug Item #3 for details). It’s not uncommon to have the game crash to the desktop just several minutes into the first duel, and this may happen with almost every fresh startup.

I have found that if I REDUCE THE NUMBER of bots/players that are allowed to duel that the system gets moderately more stable, but even so, a crash may still occur and when it does happen, it’s usually JUST before the opponents’ sabers are about to collide with each other, OR immediately afterwards. What is strange about the “more bot/player slots=more instability” bug is that I noticed that after each restart the number of bots is increased by one AUTOMATICALLY, meaning that I did NOT manually increase the number of bots/player slots. For instance, I was playing with only 8 slots assigned to bots, and after starting the game back up after another crash I noticed that the slot number was increased by 1. After four restarts 12 bots were assigned without my deliberately doing so. This “add 1 to the bot/player slot” bug also occurs whenever one exits a game type without actually quitting the game entirely. This bug does NOT occur in Power Duel.

5. Many sabers that are thrown produce a second red blade that points straight down towards the ground. On second thought, maybe the “red blade” is actually the red line representing the x axis of the 3D model. Most of the time, this “red line/blade” shows up the most often in Solo Mode, but once in a while can also be found in the Create a Mission Mode.

6. In non-duel game types, all of the bots are randomly spawned with different saber styles and sabers; this is intentional, yes? Is there a means by which I can disable the random assigning of sabers? I checked through the config file twice, and couldn’t find any such variable. I like to setup “cinematic” battles on some maps, so it’d look/feel weird to see Maul show up with two lightsabers rather than just his saberstaff.

7. In Power Duel, if one has 4 slots open, with the first 3 being filled by bots, and the last slot reserved for a human player who is playing as the single duelist, then the game will not rotate the third bot in who is also a single duelist. Whenever the player loses, the game tries to load the other single duelist bot, but it’s never successful at doing so.



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LIGHTSABER EFFECTS

1. I love the new effects that you’ve implemented. They are very well done, and certainly remind me of the type we’ve seen in the films. The new flash upon the sabers colliding hits the bull’s-eye for accuracy, and I’m completely impressed by how you have the resulting flash quickly illuminating the surrounding architecture, and you’ve properly removed the “ozone cloud” and “small shower of sparks” effects that have plagued so many other lightsaber effects adjustments.

2. However, the saber trails still look like they’re too long and the backend of the trail’s glow is too “feathered;” the glow needs a more distinctive edge. The tip of the saber needs to be made a little bit blunter/rounder. I do realize that in Ep. 3 that there’s something like three distinct saber tips that make an appearance. I would just go with the most prevalent look from all the films, which means that the saber’s tip is mostly rounded. One point about the saber’s tip: from the first person view, the tip of the saber looks almost exactly as I’d imagine they would if one was holding a “real” lightsaber. That being said, from certain angles, there’s a faint thin glowing “line” that extends a little way beyond the very tip of the lightsaber itself. A lot of the saber mods that I’ve tried in the past have this “thin center line” glitch, and I’m hoping that it’s altogether avoidable.

3. Have the size of the flash that’s created whenever saber collides directly correspond to the amount of effort being put behind the swing. For example, if two sabers come in contact with each other and both wielders are using a weaker stance then the flash that’s produced is not very large nor bright. If two sabers collide while a both duelists are using a stronger stance then the resulting flash will be quite large and very bright.

4. Add inconsequential “combat” animations, such as when the opponents’ sabers collide with each other yet neither individual is making an ACTUAL attack. A little animation would play where the other’s saber is pushed a little to the side in annoyance, or a “come get some” hand gesture is made from one opponent to the next.

5. The only other specific suggestion that I have at this time in regards to the look of the sabers is the length of their streaking saber trails. They still look too long to me. I feel that they’d be perfectly cinematic if their trail length was reduced by 25-35%. Perhaps the length that they have in this build could be kept whenever a combatant swings with extra ferocity (see “Lightsaber Combat” below for more details).



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LIGHTSABER COMBAT (this topic strongly connected to “Bots and Other A.I. Concerns” which is detailed below)

1. Why do those using a “weaker” style get knocked back when they’re attacking, but their target who is using a “stronger” style is NOT ? I’ve seen this happen time and again in regards to the Desaan One Handed Strong style. Maybe I’m misinterpreting the exhaustion-filled attacks of a tired attacker for something else?

2. Why are stronger styles slower when attacking? Shouldn’t the ONLY reason why they take longer to execute is because the saber is being positioned to a starting point that’s further away than in a less vigorous attack? It’s this greater “wind up” that leads to a more powerful attack, and this attack should have the FASTEST swing speed near the END of its swinging-arc because it has MORE energy and speed invested into it. The further a distance the saber travels, the more energy and time it has invested in it so said blade will be moving VERY quickly near the end of its swing. The shorter the saber’s swing, the less energy and time it has invested in it, so it travels more slowly. Now it may LOOK like shorter saber swings are moving faster than longer ones, but this is an ILLUSION. The shorter saber swings LOOK faster because they’re completing their shorter journeys more quickly than a longer saber swing does. A simple question illustrates my point: what would you rather be hit by, a baseball bat that’s been swung only two feet, or a baseball bat that’s been swung four feet? We have no doubts about which will hurt worse. The same should hold true for saber combat. What would be IDEAL is that the amount of energy that’s delivered by a saber is directly proportional to the distance that the blade has traveled. So, longer swing arcs increases the POTENTIAL for the saber to deliver more energy towards the target’s body or saber. Why do I use the term “potential?” If the saber of this longer swing is interrupted BEFORE it reaches its zenith, then it has delivered LESS energy than it COULD have. So, one’s saber stance would only determine how much POTENTIAL energy could be delivered against a target.

3. Those who are using the weakest/most defensive saber style have the advantage of being more likely to disarm their opponents and/or knock away lightsabers that are intercepted in midair.

4. “Weaker” saber stances should receive defense bonuses when it comes to parrying. This reflects the fact that the person using the weaker stance is being much more cautious, conservative, and analytical in regards to how they’re battling their opponent. Their caution is communicated by the shorter chops they use in battle. Since the chops have a shorter swing arc, their potential for delivering a lot of energy against their attacker’s defenses/body is much more limited than what is found in a stronger/more aggressive saber stance.

5. “Stronger” saber stances should receive attack bonuses when it comes to “blowing through” an opponent’s parry. Not only do stronger stances leave their users more vulnerable to counterattack because of the longer time it takes to wind up/prepare an attack, but it also lowers their capacity to parry/dodge incoming attacks. Those who use a stronger stance are more focused on quickly eliminating their enemy through the greater use of force and power; finesse and delicate analysis do not play parts in this more aggressive equation.

6. Extra Ferocity: Allow players to make an extra vigorous attack(s) by holding down a hotkey, or this could be a combat state that’s automatically entered whenever a dueler RUNS towards/into his/her target. They’d receive bonuses to disarming, unbalancing, knocking back/down and/or stunning the target. However, they’d receive substantial penalties to their own defensive capabilities and they’d drain their offensive energy reserves more quickly. This combat state could be utilized during ANY type of saber style.

7. Even though it’s been enabled in the menu options, there are still no lightsaber lockups. Why? If lightsaber lockups are allowed, I hope that alternate depictions of this kind of event are permitted to be experienced. For example, it’d be nice to see lockups that take place at different heights and points of leverages, such as at the waist, at the torso, and above the head. Perhaps the point at where the lockups occur is determined by the combatants’ currently selected saber styles; so for example two opponents who are fighting with a “strong” style are much more likely to have their lockup occur at/above head height. Virtually every duel we’ve seen in the films has had at least one saber lockup experience, and it would be quite immersive to have a 70% chance of having at least one lockup per match.

8. Integrate semi-deliberate saber locks and saber disarmaments. Have the strongest/most aggressive style be the most likely to initiate a saber lock. The fastest winner of the “break the lock” contest will be able to temporarily take advantage of knocking back and stunning his foe. The greater the margin of victory the more traumatic the result for the target. A minimal win will have the target take a step back while his saber arm is forced to the side, exposing his torso to an attack for a second. A moderate win will cause the target to stagger back to his knees and turn him to a side, partially exposing his back to the attacker for 1.50 seconds. A substantial victory will have the target stagger back, fall, and be stunned for 2.0-3.0 seconds.

9. Please allow for hotkeys to be assigned to SPECIFIC saber stances.

10. If I’m not mistaken about my observation, I really enjoy the fact that there aren’t any katas in this build of OJP E (aside from the front-rolling stab move). Frankly, the katas’ scripted sequences look flat out ridiculous when a person MISSES their target. I mean, how believable is it to see a duelist “freeze” in a position for several seconds and wave their arms around like a fool when a target is no longer within range? And to add insult to injury, their super long saber trails are so removed from what we’ve seen in the films that all it serves to do is remind us that what we’re experiencing is NOT the universe from the films. Without question, the “fastest” lightsaber swings we’ve ever witnessed were in Ep. 3 when Anakin and Obi-Wan are standing barely a yard apart and whirling their sabers just inches away from each others’ bodies. Their saber trails weren’t even HALF the length of the saber trails we see whenever a super fast kata is produced. I also feel that katas tend to be spammed, and can lead to wins that clearly aren’t skill based, which is something that OJP E really emphasizes: skills and tactics over lucky button mashing. Please continue to leave katas out of the game.

11. Finishing moves: the injured lives for 5 more seconds after a nonfatal wound is delivered (“nonfatal” meaning that the head or torso aren’t decapitated), and if the surviving player does nothing to “finish off” the injured individual, then said individual “naturally” weakens and expires within another 3 seconds. Injured opponents will assume one of several positions: those who have a hand lopped off will stand and look down in shock at the missing part, those who have an arm removed will drop to their knees in shock and look at their attacker, those who have a portion of their leg removed will fall to the ground and slowly writhe in a stunned silence. Once the “injured animation” starts playing, the injured target is no longer able to defend him/herself in any way, thus the attacker’s lightsaber will have no hindrance in its capabilities, meaning that any portion of the wounded’s body will INSTANTLY become decapitated. Basically, any swing that hits an injured target’s body will finally lead to their gruesome death. If one desires a “spectacular” finishing move, then they will need SKILL to do it. In a perverted sense, the type of finishing move described here will be just one more display of the champion’s prowess in lightsaber combat.

12. Please extend the time between the death of a duel’s last opponent and the displaying of the score. The default setting is just a fraction of a second long, and there’s really no time to assess exactly how a duel ended. By giving us several more seconds, not only do we get a chance to closely register/assess how the final moves were played out, but it also gives the champion’s aching hands a much deserved several seconds of rest before the next match begins.

13. Since the field of battle is so limited in scope in regards to the number of combatants that are present for Duels and Power Duels, the setting for rag doll physics should always be on. I’d make it optional to have this resource draining feature activated for maps that are more likely to have more players on it, such as Capture The Flag and Team Free For All.

14. Convert the automatic stab-down attack against a fallen foe with a much more sensible and believable one: the player leaps into a crouch and SWEEPS the floor with his/her lightsaber and this would almost always result in an automatic kill. Why would anyone armed with a melee weapon of any sort decide to STAB instead of swing a stunned target especially when one considers that a swing almost always guarantees a hit?

15. In regards to the “Seven Forms” of lightsaber combat, well, it sounds “nice” on paper, and unless boiled down into one or two very basic principles per form, is almost completely pointless to execute game wise. And this comment is coming from a person who has spoken at great length in person to the creator of the Seven Forms, David West Reynolds. Both of us went to University of Michigan, both of us held very high regards for the same professor (Prof. David Potter, a brilliant professor of ancient warfare and Classic Greek/Roman history), both of us bought our comics from the same comic book store (Dave’s Comic II, sadly now closed), and both of us were crazy about Star Wars. However, David’s love and archaeological skills put him in the perfect position to actually get hired by Rick McCullum to take Lucasfilm staff back to Tunisia to try and find the original locations used in the first Star Wars film for filming the new bits for the Star Wars Special Editions (and “Yes,” I got VERY cool insider information LONG before any of it got out to the press). From there, he was able to write several oversized “technology” books based on the Star Wars films, and to continue writing such articles for the official Star Wars magazine. And so, as much as I like David, and as much as I enjoy his work, I would not go through all of the trouble to integrate the Seven Forms into this mod. Why?

First of all, just TRY to make sense of Wookieepedia’s summation on the topic, which is far more concise and clear than much of the Expanded Universe’s treatment of the material: http://starwars.wikicities.com/wiki/Lightsaber_combat . Now, I really admire and appreciate Razorace’s very thorough and hard efforts on this remarkable mod. That being said, I’d hate to almost literally bury him into interpreting the unbalanced Seven Forms into a saber combat system that is ALREADY highly geared for strategic, logical and BALANCED play. It’s highly evident how much of a perfectionist Razorace already is; I just don’t feel it’s fair to expect him to FULLY interpret and translate the sometimes bizarre Seven Forms into a cohesive system of game play.

At the most, I would simply ascribe the already existing stances to a Seven Forms description that matches it the most closely. So, would the strongest/most aggressive stance be the equivalent of the Vaapad form? Would the weakest/most defensive stance be the equivalent of the Soresu form?

Carefully read through the Seven Forms. How in the world would one begin to fairly balance such a system, as some of the forms as described are CLEARLY superior to others? Why would any player then want to deviate from the blatantly superior forms?

I firmly believe that it’s far wiser use of time to balance out the stances that already exist in OJP E, than to sit down and ponder over how one can take the arcane-described and clearly unbalanced Seven Forms system and make it applicable for game play.



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MISSILE WEAPON COMBAT

1. Missile weapon balance can be achieved by having its mass influence the player’s movement rate. The more powerful the weapon is, the denser it is. The heavier a player becomes the slower and less agile he gets, and this also applies to the player’s ability to twist and turn. Heavier players have a much more difficult time at jumping, and even climb more slowly. Heavier weapons are also more challenging to aim.

The added advantage to having weapon power + its density=movement/agility/jump/turn rate is that it SELFREGULATES every choice the player makes. There is NO need for creating “classes” in the classic sense. If a player wants to play a “Weapons God,” then let them pick all the weapons/gear they want. In most classic class-based systems, that would be a massively unbalanced player, BUT with this system, said player would soon find that his walk/run rate are that of a turtle, his agility is that of a cow, he can jump as high as a worm, and his turn rate is that of a tree. See, INSTANT and FAIR balance without having to needlessly agonize over what class can do this, and what class can do that. And on top of all that, it’s BELIEVABLE as all of us have had prior experiences with trying to carry too much stuff around.


2. It’d be very immersive to be able to aim via an iron sight/scoped system. Not aiming in this fashion would lead to MAJOR penalties in hitting one’s target, just as it is in real life, and just as we’ve seen it time and again in the Star Wars films. Over and over again, we see them aiming down the center of their weapon.

3. And another sight that’s commonly seen in the films: the characters make use of cover, and frequently LEAN out from behind said protection before engaging their enemies.



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BOTS AND OTHER A.I. CONCERNS

1. Most of the time, on the very first spawn on a map, the opponent bot appears IMMEDIATELY next to the player’s spawn point, and this is in spite of the fact that the bot’s spawn point is typically a dozen yards or so away. Generally this bug disappears after the first round has been concluded.

2. Bots like to hop on top of people. This really dampens the sense of immersion, but on a number of maps it IS important for bots to be able to jump. Is there a way to reduce/eliminate their tendency to jump on top of others?

3. Bots need to be better at conserving their defensive/offensive energies, which means they need to know when it’s wise to make a temporary tactical retreat, especially if they’ve been disarmed. Without knowing when to retreat, the bots tend to press ahead to a point of total exhaustion, too often leaving them vulnerable to a better reasoned and energetic counterattack. Ideally, in spite of such retreats, they would still defend themselves with hand-to-hand combat techniques, but these need to be broadened so that such unarmed individuals stand a better chance at survival till their sabers once again became available.

4. Bots frequently move in a “shaky” fashion. Is there any way to smooth this shakiness away? They also have a tendency to simply stop where they’re at and stare off into one direction.

5. Can bots’ .pk3 files be written so that RGB colors are assigned to their saber blades and will this work in the game when they’re spawned? What files would need to be manipulated, and what kind of text would need to be entered to enable this feature? Could you supply a blank bot template to serve as a guide? I can only imagine how many players out there would get excited over the prospect of assigning RGB colors to a bot file, and then seeing them active within the game.

6. Bots need to more efficiently/effectively utilize their melee skills. As it stands right now, all they do is punch at a saber wielding opponent. It would be nice to see them being able to execute F.E.A.R. like moves on them, or, at the very least, have them be able to competently execute sideways kicks. While a broader range of combat moves are already available to use, they’re frequently not used by the bots.

7. Bots need to try recalling their dropped lightsabers more often. Frequently they’ll run around for a minute or more completely weaponless. It’s rare that I have this problem as a player, so this bot limitation should thus be eliminated.

8. The default saber assigned to bots is the most boring design available. Could you have a better looking saber assigned for the default slot, or even better yet, enable an option to have the sabers randomly assigned to the bot each time it’s spawned? To push it even further, one could come up with a GUI option whereby the players can set whether or not they desire to have not only the particular model of saber to be randomly assigned to bots, but also if they want the saber style (single, dual or saberstaff) also randomly assigned.

9. I really admire how well you’ve implemented the bots’ utilization of deactivating their sabers. There’s been several times where they got the jump on me and gave me a good scare. Nice work!






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GRAPHICAL USER INTERFACE AND/OR CONFIG FILE OPTIONS

1. Get rid of the Power Duel team member icon. All it does is serve to pull the player from being fully immersed in the experience. How it’s possible for players to have to actually rely on this annoying feature is beyond my capability to understand. After all, how can one NOT know who one’s partner is on a map that only allows three players to spawn onto?

2. Supply an option via a GUI to play team based games without using the blue/red team based skins and sabers. This is one feature that I LOVED from ForceMod 3, as it really added to making the experience feel far more cinematic than it otherwise would.

3. Enable through GUI an option to have the bots saber type and range of saber styles to be randomly assigned each time the player faces against him/her.

4. Here’s an option that I’m completely confident the community would go head over heels for: integrate into the GUI the ability to specify whether or not the weapons that are loaded onto the maps are from the Republic, Imperial, or a “mixed” era.

5. Allow us to specify how long we want the corpses to be present on the board. Please allow an option for “permanent.”

6. Give us a capability to boost the number of bots/players that can be present on a map. Currently the default value for player/bot assignment is the standard sixteen, and I’m sure that by now quite a few community members have systems that can handle more than that. Perhaps two higher count options would be greatly appreciated: give us the capability to select 16, 22 (or 26?), or 30 (or 36?) bots/players. Whatever number is selected, a corresponding number of assignable slots would then be made available for match building; obviously this would mean that if more slots are desired then the font sizes would have to be smaller so that they all could be seen/interacted with on the screen.



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MISCELANEOUS SUGGESTIONS

1. Allow team icons for all game types to be eliminated. This would go a long way in enabling players to setup movie-defined teams of allied characters. Such setups don’t require the use of the huge floating and un-cinematic icons because everyone knows which side of the battle each character is already on just by seeing who the character is.

2. I can’t remember the name of the mod that’s already done this, but it would be VERY nice to have this same feature in OCP E; it adds Darth Vader’s mechanical breathing to his model(s) in an ambient fashion. Perhaps this feature could be added to a config file in such a way that future releases of Vader can be added to a list, and voila, the mod will play the ambient breathing effect for that model. In my opinion, the best Vader model to date is this one: http://jediknight2.filefront.com/fil...sode_III;48471 , although HapSlash has an even better one in the works…that’s if it’s ever released. ; )

3. I see that maps typically devoted to dueling are now accessible in other game types. I have to wonder if this dramatically reduces the opportunity for the player to have access to maps that were specifically designed for those game types. Is there any way to at least double the length of the list of maps that are presented to the player as potential battlegrounds, so that having the duel maps included into those lists really doesn’t become an issue?

4. Create a dueling video that plays whenever the player loads up JA. One could even use a video from a Star Wars film, if it’s so desired. It’d also be nice if our view of the video wasn’t overly obscured by the GUI on the Main Screen.

5. When you’re spectating a player/bot, the text that’s displaying the player’s name is far too large and intrusive. If possible, please relocate this data high up into the left hand corner, where it’ll be out of the way so that the action can be more readily seen.

6. Please please please PLEASE oh PRETTY please get rid of the Force Dodge sound effect when an automatic dodge/evasion is made. It would be much more believable to hear the rubbing of cloth and a little bumping of gear than to hear that over-the-top sound effect whenever someone evades/dodges.

7. As #6 above, please oh PLEASE replace the Force Exhaustion sound with something a little more subtle, like maybe a rapidly beating heartbeat. The Force Exhaustion is such an alien sound to what one thinks about when it comes to vigorous exertion; the sound of a rapidly beating heart would maintain this crucial parameter and thus enhance the sense of immersion.

8. Models should be assigned a height scale, so that they look more proper in the game to what we’ve seen in the films. 6’ tall Jawas and Yodas go a long way to killing any sense of immersion when battling these models. Since taller characters would have a greater range (not only would they have longer arms, but their lightsabers would also be scaled to their size), it’d be important to incorporate an attributes system that scales up/down based on the character’s height to balance out the consequences of scaling.

Here’s an example of what I mean. If the average height is 1.01 (Katarn’s height is set to 1.0, but the figure 1.01 is the most common one) then any character who is of that same height has no advantages/disadvantages in regards to game play. The taller one gets, the greater one’s reach is with a lightsaber, and the stronger one gets (increases the odds of “blowing through” a target’s defenses), BUT greater height also means that one travels slower and gets a slower swing rate. The smaller one gets, the shorter one’s reach becomes and the less strength it has behind an attack, but shorter height also means that one travels faster and gets a faster swing rate. Yoda from Ep. 2 and 3 epitomizes this concept.

Assigning base attributes to a scaleable height system would thus lend a much broader range of experiences both against players and bots. ForceMod 3 only integrated the movement rate into the variable height function, and it was quite successful at what it did. I think that pushing the system further in such a fashion is not only believable but also exciting to contemplate.


9. Please replace the “suddenly horizontal OMG he’s spinning five times before he hits the ground” death animation with something far more believable. This kind of extreme death looks ridiculous even when death is caused by explosive devices.

10. Remove the yellow glow from a dropped/returning saber hilt. I don’t see why the player needs an advantage to look for it. If it’s lost, then that’s the player’s fault, and as Obi-Wan said in Episode 2, a foolish Jedi loses it at his/her own peril.

11. At this point in time it seems to me that a far more pressing need than to create the 7 saber styles would be to expand on the MARTIAL ARTS moves that are available to the player when he/she is disarmed. This is especially important since becoming disarmed is a fairly common occurrence, and the already available kickboxing routine is far too limited in its scope. Perhaps when the player is disarmed, they’re automatically switched to martial arts mode which allows them to select a combat style, such as karate type moves (such as the amazingly brutal ones that can be experienced in F.E.A.R.) versus ones that are more judo like (throwing opponents and/or getting them into chokeholds where a contest of mouse clicks determines whether the chokehold is maintained; if the choke isn’t broken, the opponent is suffocated to death). Broadening these options would certainly add a greater sense of hope for the disarmed player to escape his/her predicament.

12. Allow us to specify whether or not we want the single duelist in Power Duels to have “150” or “100” points of health. I think that it’d be more impressive if the single duelist was able to eliminate his/her enemies with the same amount of starting health that their opponents had.

13. Whenever a player is Force Pushed by another, their view is shaken to a degree. If a Force Push is successfully stopped by a player, then they’ll only experience a VERY mild degree of “camera shake.” If they’re unable to resist their opponent’s Force attack, then their camera is really shaken, and when they finally crash against a surface, their camera is very briefly shaken even harder. I feel that this will make the combat feel even more visceral and lend a sense of tactility.



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Whew! That’s a novella of highly detailed feedback, isn’t it? I hope that it proves to be intellectually stimulating, as well as useful.

I thorough enjoy playing OJP E. The current build is just phenomenal at depicting saber collisions. You made HUGE strides here, and this work goes FAR beyond anything Raven did.

I simply cannot wait to see what else you have in store for us.

As always,

Yours!

Kyle
Feb. 16, 2006



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Old 02-16-2006, 02:19 AM   #2
Kyle Kelasheski
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Just thought I should mention that the version of OJP E that I was testing was version 5. I'm happy to see that a version 6 has since been recently released, and I'm eager to try it out soon.

Yours,

Kyle
Feb. 16, 2006



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Old 02-16-2006, 03:08 AM   #3
JRHockney*
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I feel like I just read an encyclopedia page or two!! Razor, if you ever thought my posts were long...... lol. Anyways...

Version0.0.6 fixed alot of the bugs you mentioned and version 0.0.7 (which is coming out soon will fix even more of them.)

Since I mainly discuss saber combat with razor, I focus on that for my response.

Regarding the sabers themselves, not my area , butmany of your suggestions sound like good ones. I'm not sure if Razor made those flashes himself or not so he might not be able to make them bigger with stronger hits. Adding completely new animations takes a lot of time and is very hard to do unless you have 3dmax or are a master of Wudans dragon program and to my knowledge, razor mainly just uses pre-existing animation replacements for the most part.

Saber combat wise, you should really read the saber combat suggestions thread and not only will you see how this system came to be the way it currently is, but you will see that several of youre suggestions have already been discussed. A few things to point out:

1. all the saber styles currently do the same DP damage and razor is trying really hard to make them all move at the same speed (eventhough I like their speeds and just want differing DP damages, but thats just me). Its hard for him to do that because they already technically are moving at the same speed, but the number of animation frames are different between the styles. Because the styles do not currently have differing "strengths" DP or HP damage wise, many of your suggestions involving this area wouldn't really make sense at the moment.

2. The Extra feocity is not too bad of an idea, but it might have the potential to be spammed by people constantly backing up and running if that approach is taken. The hotkey idea would be better but razor is already adding a more powerful attack fake to the system in the next build that kind of doubles as a power swing. You can read about that in the saber suggestions thread.

3. I already suggested the 7 forms combat ideas on the suggestions thread as well and youll have to read there why it wasn't implemented yourself (because I can't remember! LOL).

4. We've also already discussed finishing moves and I think razor will get around to it one way or another.

Quote:
12. Please extend the time between the death of a duel’s last opponent and the displaying of the score. The default setting is just a fraction of a second long, and there’s really no time to assess exactly how a duel ended. By giving us several more seconds, not only do we get a chance to closely register/assess how the final moves were played out, but it also gives the champion’s aching hands a much deserved several seconds of rest before the next match begins.
Might be a good idea.


Quote:
9. Please allow for hotkeys to be assigned to SPECIFIC saber stances.
Might be a good idea if it can be done. Heck, that might even be possible with binds already but I'm prompt retarded.

Well that's all the brain I have left right now. But seriously, read the saber suggestions thread and you'll see what we've been planning for the system. Enhanced version 0.0.7 and 8 will rock beyond the extent of rocking if you already like this system. Thanks for spending so much time writing.

Have fun reading this and responding, Razor! LOL


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Old 02-16-2006, 03:57 AM   #4
Kyle Kelasheski
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JRHockney,

Yeah, that WAS a long post, but I did warn everyone about it! lol

Thank you for your reply. I have looked through that thread already several times, but I frankly don't have the time to comb through it completely. It's good to know that some of the bugs that I reported have already been fixed in v. 6, which I love by the way. The new saber stances, and the fact that they're maintained while moving is a very VERY nice plus!

I just want to make sure that ALL the bases are covered though. So I'm posting below an image that captures many of the saber collision bugs that I experienced in v. 5, plus a new saber bug that's in v. 6. Yes, I'm sorry to report, v. 6 does have a bug! lol

Here's the collage depicting what I've mentioned earlier, plus the new v. 6 bug:

[img=http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/9638/ojpesabercollisionmisalignment.th.jpg]


Strafing/sidestepping in the 1st. person perspective while in one of the new stances results in this very visible glitch: the saber blade does not stay inside the hilt's blade emitter! How embarassing! Imagine just how hard the Sith baddies will laugh at such a sight. lol

I hope it's easily remedied, as visually it's my favorite new stance.

I'm happy that you like some of my other suggestions, and I hope that they all get added (of course!). ; )


One aspect that became even clearer to me with v. 6 is just how much tweaking the bots need. They're still jumping on heads and staying there. They're still running way to much; in fact not once did I see any of the bots assume one of the new stances and keep it while moving. I can only assume that this is due to them running all the time.

However, one improvement I saw them exhibit a bit better is that they're more likely to pursue you up heights using Force Jump. In build v. 5 they never did this. With build v. 6 they did this some. I don't know if this was a conscious adjustment or not, but it sure seems like something was tweaked to make this admirable trait occur more often.

Here are some bugs that I forgot to mention that were in v. 5, and are still present in v. 6:

1. When climbing, the lightsaber does not emit a deactivation sound.
2. When faking a swing, there are no saber movement sounds.

That's it for now. I have one more image to post and then I'm off to bed.

Yours,

Kyle
Feb. 16, 2006



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Old 02-16-2006, 05:23 PM   #5
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The saber "collision" crashes you're having seem to be because of saberlocking. This has been fixed in 0.0.7 enhanced as Razorace has stated (saberlocks will work in this version). To get around it and play crash free simply disable saberlocks as they cause it, I'm pretty sure thats it because from those screens thats what happened to me and it was always during a possible saberlock.

As for your suggestions, which seem to be very nit picky and "Roleplayer /bow plz" based, I simply don't like em. Alot of the stuff simply changes too much for too little. For instance I do not see a reason for the heart beating sound, its a game and its a hud :P. Its kind of contradicting to be okay with the HUD but hate a HUD sound. Nevertheless i love the force depleted sound, its clear and noisy enough to actually remind you that hey you're in a weak state, thats usually easily forgotten when dueling. Same for force dodge sound, imo.

The graphic effects on the saber trails you comment on arent razoraces implementation, they're the base JKA ones and while I do agree they look pretty ugly if you look hard enough. I don't think he should have to change them for the mods sake. I think the sabersystem and balancing is more important than some graphics. But yeah I can agree, I have been looking for a mod that edits them like MovieBattles II's trails (which look pretty nice), so far the best I've found was whitening the core so theres no "streak" but its still really long for a trail.

For the stances, I like using red style, the swings are pretty long ranged and I guess its just preference from base JO. But the problem I've encountered mostly is that the wind up is just too slow to parry people or even attack when they're stunned because usually my saber is recoiling slowly from the impact or winding down from the swing. The swing speed itself doesnt seem too slow, just the wind up part. Hopefully with the stance attributes or whatever is being implemented in 0.0.7 will make red more usable in ojp against people who furiously keep attacking (double sabers etc).
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Old 02-16-2006, 08:40 PM   #6
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Hopefully with the stance attributes or whatever is being implemented in 0.0.7 will make red more usable in ojp against people who furiously keep attacking (double sabers etc).
To tell you the truth, I'm a little worried about red style in the next version. There supposedly arent going to be varying DP damages for the styles and unless razor can make the windup animation faster for red in time, red is going to be wickedly underpowered against faster styles; especially since you can no longer parry while attacking or in a forced block. Simply put, unless I'm missing something from the the saber combat discussions, Red needs more DP damage or some other advantage so it doesn't suck to use! I'll have to comment more at the saber suggestions thread about this.


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Old 02-16-2006, 08:55 PM   #7
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Quote:
1. While it may be available in other game types, there is no ability to specify the game-ending score for Team Free For All.
Uh, it's just "fraglimit" but I assume you're referring to the menus. Is the problem in the Solo Game or Create a Server menus?

Quote:
3. For some reason, it seems like every time an electrostaff (that one that came with the very popular and superb MagnaGuardVM model
It's probably the saberlock bug. It should be fixed in the next release.

Quote:
4. This build of OJP E seems fairly unstable compared to the last build I played half a year ago.
saberlock bug.

Quote:
For instance, I was playing with only 8 slots assigned to bots, and after starting the game back up after another crash I noticed that the slot number was increased by 1.
Already been fixed.

Quote:
5. Many sabers that are thrown produce a second red blade that points straight down towards the ground. On second thought, maybe the “red blade” is actually the red line representing the x axis of the 3D model. Most of the time, this “red line/blade” shows up the most often in Solo Mode, but once in a while can also be found in the Create a Mission Mode.
Not sure about this one. I'll need more information since I've never seen it before.

Quote:
6. In non-duel game types, all of the bots are randomly spawned with different saber styles and sabers; this is intentional, yes?
Actually the bots spawn according to their bot files. It's just that bot files are randomly selected when bot_minplayers adds bots to the game. If you want to be more picky, manually add the bots to the game using the Add Bot menu item.

Quote:
7. In Power Duel, if one has 4 slots open, with the first 3 being filled by bots, and the last slot reserved for a human player who is playing as the single duelist, then the game will not rotate the third bot in who is also a single duelist. Whenever the player loses, the game tries to load the other single duelist bot, but it’s never successful at doing so.
Not sure about this one either. Maybe try it again to see if it's a continuing problem?


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Old 02-18-2006, 02:29 AM   #8
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I appreciate all of your comments! Here are some specific replies...


Razorace,

In regards to the electrostaff causing the crashing bug, well, I went in and turned saberlock off, and yet the electrostaff still caused the game to crash. After the third time this happened, I simply gave up on having the MagnaGuard droid in the maps. I thought that I read on some web site that featured a download of the MagnaGuard/electrostaff package that the electrostaff was tweaked to do less damage than a normal saberstaff, since in the films both Obi-Wan and Grievous were smacked by that thing and they still kept on coming. Perhaps the bug is related to how much damage is being assigned whenever the electrostaff hits a target.

The "red line/blade" bug that occassionally occurs when a saber is thrown happens the most frequently in "Solo Mode." It happens less frequently in a "Create Mission Mode." If I'm not mistaken, when this bug occurs it always happens as the saber reaches its maximum distance and begins to fall to the ground.

I think I need to be more specific in regards to bots appearing with randomly assigned sabers/saber colors in non-duel type matches. The bots that I'm describing have been manually assigned by me, and yet they're still appearing with lightsabers that are different than what's defined in their bot files, and the color of the sabers differ as well. Is there a setting that can be changed in the config file to make sure that sabers and their colors are not randomly assigned to player-defined bots? I looked through the config several times, and saw no such listing. What's a little tricky about this is that I don't want to confuse two separate issues: being able to toggle on/off team based skins/sabers and being able to toggle on/off the option to have sabers randomly assigned to bots. In my mind, they're two desirable features that are quite different from each other.

The Power Duel "the second single bot duelist is never cycled" bug is constant. I've never yet seen it not happen. Typically, the single duelist bot appears for only the first match, and then afterwards whenever the single duelist player loses his match the game tries to load the bot, but it always fails and the player is once again dueling. In my opinion, this isn't such a bad bug for those people who're playing only against bots, as it ensures that the player will more quickly get to duel again, but I can easily imagine that this bug would become a frustrating one for online sessions. Who knows, maybe this bug is only confined to bot-only matches.

I want to send HUGE accolades your way for a feature that I've just encountered with the TAB bots: they do a pretty decent job travelling maps without bot routes--this was a major and happily received surprise! Thank you! For the first time I was able to actually enjoy playing on some truly awesome looking maps, such as CaptainM's jaw droppingly gorgeous work on his jedi_temple and jedi_temple_battle maps. Now this opens up a whole new world to me, as I've always made it a rule to never download maps that don't come with bot routes. Are there any STUNNINGLY well made bot-route-free maps out there that you'd STRONGLY recommend to me? I now have a very good reason to add them to my library (please note that anyone can answer this question, as this forum's member's opinions are important to me)!

I'd like to recommend that you check into the following saber effects mods that I tried out in OJP E. The mod "better_sabers" holds two files: one that alters how the saber blades look and another that alters their sounds. I dropped both of them into OJP E and noticed that the better_blades did not suffer from the "saber blade is outside the emitter" bug that I featured in the above image. I really liked its exhaustive sampling of Prequel sound effects, but the one sound effect that stood out to me was that frequently when the sabers collided we'd here the "rattling" saber collision sound we first heard when Maul saberlocked both Jinn's and Kenobi's sabers in Ep. 1. To me, this "rattling" effect would be better assigned to a brief saberlock sound. The effect sounded too "loose" to me to be assigned to an event as definate as two swinging sabers colliding with each other violently. The other saber effects mod I tried is "Episode 3 Sabers v 3." This mod is primarily concerned with how the sabers look, and I have to say they look very very accurate to what we've seen in the Prequels. One feature I really liked about is that the extra glow near the emitter is kept fairly small, which is something that too many other saber mods get wrong; too often they make it much too large. Most of the times in the films, we don't see this "extra emitter glow" at all, and it's usually only visible for the closeups. Both of these saber mods can be found at pcgamemods.com .



Tapela,

"...As for your suggestions, which seem to be very nit picky and "Roleplayer /bow plz" based, I simply don't like em. Alot of the stuff simply changes too much for too little. For instance I do not see a reason for the heart beating sound, its a game and its a hud :P. Its kind of contradicting to be okay with the HUD but hate a HUD sound. Nevertheless i love the force depleted sound, its clear and noisy enough to actually remind you that hey you're in a weak state, thats usually easily forgotten when dueling. Same for force dodge sound, imo. ..."

I'm not a roleplayer, and I've yet to bow to anyone in a match. I've only played JA twice online. So allow me to flesh out a bit more of why I offered up the suggestions that I did, that way your next assessment of my intentions might be more accurate.

Without question, we here have a lightsaber mod that is striving to be absolutely true to the heart of the combat that we've seen in the films. If one wants to heighten and maintain a high level of immersion, then it's really important to be as consistent as possible. Breaking consistency breaks immersion.

I strongly feel that if one carefully reads over all of the posts that I've ever made on this forum that one will see that I am entirely consistent in my game design convictions. The "class-free" weapons/gear suggestion I give above falls right in line with what we've experienced in our own lives and it's also what we've seen in the films. Now I know that some players just love their "running and gunning and bunny-hopping" ways, but I'm completely convinced that game players are getting tired of this one-trick pony. The success of this mod proves my point: it is much more demanding/challenging than Raven's awful "hyper-adrenaline-fueled" system and yet the fact that players are embracing this mod proves that they really want something that is much more complex/rewarding than what can be easily found in today's standard "how much bigger can the explosions of gore get?" fare.

The class-less combat system is an idea that I did not come up with. I used to be very active in playing online a tremendous total conversion of Unreal Tournament known as "Infiltration." I think that it's very fair to say that it is probably the first, and still the most accurate depiction of real life infantry combat yet made. "Yes" it is far more accurate than "America's Army." This game is brutally hardcore (and I MEAN that; every body movement one makes depletes one's stamina, and that influences every decision that one makes in this shooter-simulator), very unforgiving, and yet it is very, very VERY rewarding. Why? Because once one learns how to operate within the strict and real world parameters of the game, and once one can survive several encounters against some of the smartest players online, well, it's quite an adrenaline rush. No other shooter comes close to generating the sense of utter accomplishment that one gets from playing this mod, and it's because it demands that the player do more than simply shoot while running at an ubelievably fast pace; it demands the application of solid tactics and smart reasoning.

The above glowing descriptors for Infiltration precisely fit the remarkable saber system that Razorace has defined, and that's because at the heart of both endeavors is the same goal; they're both aiming very high in regards to making players very happy by constantly pitting them against very demanding challenges.

The class-less weight/movement system I described above is not geared towards roleplaying, but rather emulating what we've seen in the films, and what we've seen in the films parallels real life approaches to combat. And as "nitpicky" as my suggestions may seem, I still feel that they fall right in line to the principles that Razorace is exemplifying with how he's shaping the saber combat system. And my class-less suggestions, as detailed and demanding as they may seem are still a world away from the strictures one faces in Infiltration, which applies real world physics to ballistics, body movements, exhaustion, and altering one's capacity to regain one's stamina by literally counting the weight of EVERY magazine, weapon, and grenade that's discarded during combat.

I'm just hopeful that when all is said and done, not only will OJP E perfectly capture the almost god-like "one hit one kill" terror of dueling Force Users, but that it will also capture the "one/two blaster bolts = you're dead" terror of those wielding missile weapons. By placing the player's gaming heart into his throat, one's going to guarantee an adrenaline rush that'll be hard to ignore.


Time for me to go to bed fellas. I really enjoyed reading what all of you had to say, and I appreciate the fact that this community seems to go out of its way to be clear and thorough in its communications. I guess you could say that I'm in definately in that category, lol.

Good night, and I hope your weekend is off to a great start!

Kyle
Feb. 18, 2006


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Old 02-18-2006, 05:01 AM   #9
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The other saber effects mod I tried is "Episode 3 Sabers v 3." This mod is primarily concerned with how the sabers look, and I have to say they look very very accurate to what we've seen in the Prequels. One feature I really liked about is that the extra glow near the emitter is kept fairly small, which is something that too many other saber mods get wrong; too often they make it much too large.
Hey Razor! This one's done by Cloud too!!! LOL! It is pretty decent as well.


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Old 02-18-2006, 06:22 AM   #10
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Have a link?


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Old 02-18-2006, 08:02 AM   #11
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http://www.pcgamemods.com/mod/13739.html Link to Episode 3 Sabers V3.


I havent tried it myself, I'm currently using the suggested sound pack by him which grew on me quickly with some other saber mod, pk3 is called NewBladesv4. Here is a link to that. http://www.pcgamemods.com/mod/15491.html Anyways I'll be sure to try the episode 3 sabers v3 later on, but so far I think that "Episode 3 Blades v4" is the best saber mod I've seen, the tip isnt pointed weirdly like some other mods and the rbg sabers tend to be and the trail core is made competely white so the swings look good. Unfortunately the mod doesnt change the actual length of the swing trails like in MBII but it still looks great since theres no streaking.
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Old 02-18-2006, 03:35 PM   #12
Lathain Valtiel
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Don't bother integrating them into the mod itself...

Instead, work on the modular saber blade core feature so we can all do it as we please.


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Old 02-18-2006, 04:31 PM   #13
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Razorace,

Another bug, although I don't know if it's something you can adjust from your end, or it's a bug that's "hardcoded" into the map by the map's maker. In any case, here's the problem: in a majority of the maps that do NOT have bot routes the player and bots alike all spawn at the SAME point at the SAME time. Exploded body parts are everywhere! lol Is there any way that the spawning events could be spaced out both in the sense of AREA or TIME? If only one spawn point can be supplied, then it becomes critical that there is a short delay before the other participants spawn so that the earlier spawned character(s) has an opportunity to clear the spawn zone.

And one more AI concern: is there any way to make them scan the entirety of their environment more frequently? Too often the bots just stop moving, and face one direction (usually a structure). If one walks into their peripheral vision and/or within their hearing range, they will then look at the new opponent to engage. If they would pivot on their feet to scan the area they're stopped at, then perhaps this would lead to them getting into engagements more quickly.

And by the way, if you need help in setting up a model height scale system (hopefully linked to an attributes adjusting system as I suggested above) then let me know, and I'll approach Azymn to ask him if he'll let us use the .INI files that contain said data for ForceMod III. I put a TON of time into these files, and I'm guessing that I more or less doubled or tripled the number of models that were contained within the .INIs. I'm pretty confident that he won't have any issues with sharing these resources with us so that we can significantly cut down on the production time if we were to go with such a system for OJP E.

And before I forget, if you desire to have anything designed from scratch for OJP E, then please feel free to think of me as a potential designer. If you check out the links in my signature, you'll be taken to other mods I've done drawings for. The drawings are almost entirely focused on designs set in the Star Wars universe. I'm contributing to the "real world" Operation Flashpoint mods primarily in testing and giving game play design suggestions, although for the Dynamic AI Creator mod I'm doing the editing/proofreading of the German-English translation of the revolutionary utilitiy's in depth manual. Just look for any posting that has "Kyle_K_ski" in it and odds are you'll see some artwork there.

I'm particularly proud of my design for the Valiant cruiser http://adarkprophecy.proboards74.com...ead=1136442404 and for the droid designs for the Star Wars total conversion for Operation Flashpoint http://gawmod.proboards85.com/index....ead=1138656154

Of course, I'd be very interested in hearing this community's feedback on said work!




Tapela,

Thanks for the link to Episode 3 Sabers V4 . Somehow that file did not come up when I did a weapons search on pcgamemods.com. I have it now, and you can bet that I'm eager to see how those babies look in the game.

One other saber mod just got posted today, and it looks very, very promising. The author of this mod even supplies two different types of saber tips for those who prefer the pointy tip over the more commonly seen round ones. Here's a link to said file: http://jediknight2.filefront.com/fil...t_Sabers;57115 .

One of the features that Azymn put into ForceMod III was that you could select from all kinds of different saber blade styles. It's pretty crazy to think about how different the sabers are from film to film, or in the case of Episode 3, how different they can appear in just the same film. He didn't offer any options for a pointy tip instead of a round one, but if it isn't too much work these kinds of options would make the community just drool.


Yours,

Kyle
Feb. 18, 2006



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Old 02-18-2006, 07:27 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Kelasheski
In any case, here's the problem: in a majority of the maps that do NOT have bot routes the player and bots alike all spawn at the SAME point at the SAME time.
That's just a problem with those individual maps. It means they don't have enough spawnpoints. I have implimented some code for MP that spreads out the spawning like you suggested, but it's only used in CoOp mode where it's needed sometimes. However, I don't think it's my role to make up for sloopy map/model/etc making since there's an infinite number of ways to screw up but only one way to do things right. I'd have to spend all my time fixing other people's mistakes, which isn't fun at all.

Quote:
And one more AI concern: is there any way to make them scan the entirety of their environment more frequently? Too often the bots just stop moving, and face one direction (usually a structure).
Ah, someone finally noticed that. It's because I never finished the visual scanning behavior for when a bot loses sight of their enemy and goes looking for them. I didn't finish it at the time since I wasn't sure how to impliment that sort of looking back/forth action. I have some ideas now so I'll probably go back and fix that.

Quote:
And by the way, if you need help in setting up a model height scale system (hopefully linked to an attributes adjusting system as I suggested above) then let me know, and I'll approach Azymn to ask him if he'll let us use the .INI files that contain said data for ForceMod III.
Model scaling is a bit of a low priority at the moment since I've never really come up with a good plan on how to balance the modelscaling vs the hit detection. Plus, a LOT of the code expects the players to be the same size. I'd be stuck tweaking settings to get it to work right for a long time and to be honest, it's not something that I've ever really cared about.

Quote:
And before I forget, if you desire to have anything designed from scratch for OJP E, then please feel free to think of me as a potential designer.
Thanks for the offer, but I'm not sure what I'd get you to do. I'm only really a coder and don't have the capacity or time to create a lot of non-code based new content. However, I can always use more feedback on the gameplay and such.

Also, Op Flashpoint is the awesome.

Quote:
One of the features that Azymn put into ForceMod III was that you could select from all kinds of different saber blade styles.
Yeah, that's what Lath was talking about earlier. I also agree with him that that's the best solution to our sound/blade needs. However, something like that would take a lot of work and it's something that I don't particularly care about (my main interests are saber combat, gameplay, and AI). As such, it will probably be done as I feel like it since I don't want to get burnt out doing something that isn't fun doing. That's why I stopped working on the NPC AI navigation code port for a while.


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Old 02-18-2006, 08:58 PM   #15
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The problem with Azymn's core selection system is that it only has a couple of slots.

What I'm asking for is a system similar to how the game processes hilts. You select your own blade core and saber sounds just as you would your hilt. If another client can't find the files in question, fall back on defaults.


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Old 02-19-2006, 04:30 AM   #16
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Quote:
LIGHTSABER EFFECTS
2. Buh, that's not really my department. I'm pretty happy with the current saber blade effects.

3. I'm not sure that's technically possible since the effect sizes are determined by the saber clash fx file. I could probably make multiple sizes but I dont think it's nessicary, since all the attacks are supposed to have the same force behind them (one of my design philosophies is that all the styles should be roughly equal).

4. Mmm, I like the idea but it would slow down the gameplay too much. You'd force one or both of the players into animations that they couldn't abort and would leave them open to attack.

5. Well, right now I'm using the saber trail for giving a visual effect to the attack fakes. I'm not sure that tweaking the trails beyond that is nessicary.


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Old 02-19-2006, 05:29 AM   #17
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Since a few of you gave links to saber mods, here an interesting one:
http://www.pcgamemods.com/mod/14374.html

This is interesting because it removes alot of the saber trail (blur) from swings and makes the swings (and power fakes) look more movie correct. However, there is a draw back to thisL: because the saber trail is shorter, the animations dont blend together as well and you can see the individual animations for the regular swings. I'm still debating whether or not I actually like this feature or not, so you can decide for yourselfs.


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Old 02-19-2006, 02:52 PM   #18
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Psst.

You can change the saber effects via .sab file. My sword has a nifty blue particle clash.


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Old 02-19-2006, 08:09 PM   #19
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One other saber mod just got posted today, and it looks very, very promising. The author of this mod even supplies two different types of saber tips for those who prefer the pointy tip over the more commonly seen round ones. Here's a link to said file: http://jediknight2.filefront.com/fi...ct_Sabers;57115 .
Wow! Those saber trails are almost perfect and the glow is brightness is great! Although I do wish the fake saber trail was just a little shorter and the glow was a bit bigger, but this is a big improvement for movie realism. This in my opinion is the best saber mod for Enhanced.

Quote:
Psst.

You can change the saber effects via .sab file. My sword has a nifty blue particle clash.
I couldn't find the sab.file you were talking about, but I retarded when it come to finding files with abbreviations I don't know LOL . I found one that had desann's and tavion's styles, but it only had length, radius, and I think effect options. I'm looking at modifying more the saberblur and saberglow than anything else. I tried editing the pictures themselves in the mod above, but that didn't work. I got an interesting "moving square" saber when I tried that. Any suggestions?


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Old 02-19-2006, 08:24 PM   #20
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there's a .sab file for each hilt. I think it's the in /ext_data of your assets files.


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Old 02-19-2006, 08:33 PM   #21
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HOckney: You probably didn't make the background of the jpg files dead black... Either that, or your files are plain messed up.

A .sab file can change the following about a saber hilt:

Its sounds
The damage effect it does to a person when it hits (Example: My sword draws blood)
The saber clash.

Can't do trails though. I thought you wanted saber clash.


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Old 02-20-2006, 02:05 AM   #22
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HOckney: You probably didn't make the background of the jpg files dead black... Either that, or your files are plain messed up.
Got that part right, but I just realized that I can't change the overall size of the editing window without screwing it all up. I figured it out and just changed the trails to where their almost perfect. Hooray!


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Old 02-20-2006, 04:48 AM   #23
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JRHockney,

I'm happy that you're enjoying the "Relatively Perfect Sabers" mod that I linked to. I think the glows look very appealing, however I do have some issues with them:

1. It has a rather prominent "ghost center line". Other saber mods have been able to reduce this very thin feathery center line that runs out of the center of the saber's tip.

2. In my opinion, its saber trails are too short. They need to be lengthened by 25-35%.



I tried Tapela's recommended saber effects mod "NewBladesV4" and I happen to feel that both in regards to the brightness of the glow, the thickness and color of its core, as well as its trail length that it's about as true to the Episode III look as we're going to get. It has some problems though, which can be seen in this screenshot: [img=http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/9446/newbladesv4stanceerror8vt.th.jpg]

1. OJP E's stances are fouled up for the extra positions we can take beyond the default Raven ones. This you can see in the screenshot.

2. I use RGB saber settings, and they're not being applied to my saber.

3. First person perpective does not work.


Other than that, the saber blades are perfect.


Really though, except for how the blades affect some of OJP E's features, the appearance of them is dead on. I'm wondering if this is because these sabers come with stances of their own, and are thus interfering with what OJP E wants to do? I know that he's included a separate .pk3 for the JA+ mod, so maybe that's a part of it too. If the 3 bugs stated above could be ironed out, I wouldn't hesitate to make this saber mod a permanent addition to my "ojpenhanced" directory.

The other feature that's nice about the NewBladesV4 saber mod is that they've been enhanced to take advantage of DynamicGlow, and boy does it show!

If someone can figure out what's wrong, and post an updated version for us to use, it'd be GREATLY appreciated!





Razorace,

I certainly understand why you wouldn't want to go through all the trouble of adjusting other people's maps that had poorly thought out spawn points.

In regards to being able to have models/bots of different sizes in the game, I didn't realize that enabling such a design would create extra work in regards to saber hit detection and what have you. That being said, I'm hoping that there still might be the possibility of enabling a much more rigorous scaling system. Instead of having an open ended ForceMod 3 scaling system as I suggested above, perhaps you'd be more open to the idea of supplying a small .INI file that would only allow for up to THREE sizes: (1.) Vader size, (2.) Average size, and (3.) Yoda size. Maybe by limiting the assigning of model scaling so drastically it would cut down on the amount of work that would be needed to balance them out. I feel that a lot of players would REALLY appreciate the capability to play duels that look almost as real as the films, and having properly scaled models, especially of the major players, would go a long way to meeting that goal. If you want to go ahead with such a scaling system, I'd be happy to assist on entering in listings to the .INI file.

Is there any way you could set the next release of OJP E to automatically bypass the opening animations for JA? This would speed up our ability to join/start a game, and it would thus gives us more time to test the game.

Also, is there a way to enable the more realistic model shading we can use/see in the JA singleplayer game? And is there a way to enable the use of the more 3D looking Force Push/Pull effects?

If you so desire, feel free to integrate whatever sound effects you enjoy from my recently posted sound effects mod that can be found here: http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=160904 .

Well now, it's once again WAY past my bedtime. Goodnight all, and I hope we all have a wonderful start to a new work week.

Yours,

Kyle
Feb. 20, 2006



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Old 02-20-2006, 07:22 AM   #24
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1. It's probably using animation files to screw with the animations. As such, it's conflicting with the Enhanced animations.

2. All blade mod I've seen so far don't affect the rgbsabers since they only alter the image files for the individual saber colors. If you want them to affect the rgbsabers, all you'd have to do is make them for the rgbsaber files. This might be as easy as renaming the files but I don't know for sure. Lath might know more about this subject.

3. That doesn't make any sense. Does the rest of the Enhanced stuff work right? I can't imagine the True View not working if the rest of the mod is working right.

Quote:
I feel that a lot of players would REALLY appreciate the capability to play duels that look almost as real as the films, and having properly scaled models, especially of the major players, would go a long way to meeting that goal.
I totally understand the motivation for making the model scaling work and I agree that it would be cool. However, I just don't currently have the motivation to impliment something like that. Ideally, if I had more of a team, I could religate some of the more tedious/simplier tasks to the more junior staff members.

Quote:
Is there any way you could set the next release of OJP E to automatically bypass the opening animations for JA? This would speed up our ability to join/start a game, and it would thus gives us more time to test the game.
I imagine that the Q3 engine already has a command line argument that does it but I don't know what it is. However you could try this mini-mod out to see if it works. http://jediknight2.filefront.com/fil...ro_Video;24546

Quote:
Also, is there a way to enable the more realistic model shading we can use/see in the JA singleplayer game? And is there a way to enable the use of the more 3D looking Force Push/Pull effects?
The volumetric shading is one of the options in the shadows video option. And what do you mean by more 3D looking Push/Pull effects? You mean that foggy cloud stuff?


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Old 02-20-2006, 07:54 AM   #25
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As for the electrostaff, my debugger is telling me that the crash is occurring somewhere in the actual game engine. As such, it's probably related to something that's different/weird with the electrostaffs and not really something that I can fix. You gotta use third party mods at your own risk. Sorry!


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Old 02-20-2006, 02:29 PM   #26
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I have none of these problems you're experiancing Kyle. Probably because I did not bother with the JA+ PK3 files because I did not have JA+ nor was I interested in it at the moment. I just put the Newblades4.pk3 and ONLY that in the base folder and it works fine with everything, including rbg (which is the same except for maybe the core of the blade when swung). If you put the JA+ stuff in I could see how it is conflicting with OJP. You may wanna try only using NewBlades4.pk3.

So as far as I know thats the only thing it could be unless its something else you might have in your base conflicting with them. For me the effects mod works fine and has zero problems.
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Old 02-20-2006, 03:45 PM   #27
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NewBladesV4 is incompatible with OJP in the first place unless I'm not being told something... It has its own client DLL.


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Old 02-20-2006, 03:50 PM   #28
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Installation: - Put the file: "NewBladesV4.pk3" in your base directory. If you want to have the Episode 2 blue blade, put the file: "V3 Blue.pk3" in your base folder.

JA+ Installation: - Put the files: "V4Blades for JA+&ForceMod3.pk3" and "cgamex86.dll" located in the folder "for JA+" in your JA+ folder. If you want to have the Episode 2 blue blade, put the file: "V3 Blue for JA+.pk3" in your JA+ folder.


Its OPTIONAL. You do not mess with the .dll or anything in the JA+ Installation folder, that is for JA+. Use the base JKA pk3 and it works fine. Guys how is this a problem? I don't understand how this could get by anyone or how it would be difficult to understand.. In any case the mod works fine for me because I only put the NewBladesV4.pk3 into my base folder.
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Old 02-20-2006, 03:55 PM   #29
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...Open the NewBladesV4.pk3.

You'll notice that, surprise, inside of it is a dll file labeled cgamex86.dll!

Clearly your dll is getting overwritten and you have around half the mod.


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Old 02-20-2006, 04:38 PM   #30
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I see, well maybe OJP is overwriting it when I run the .bat, otherwise I really don't have anything else that would change anything. When I used Newbladesv4.pk3 the only thing I noticed different was the saber blade effects, and even so RBG sabers werent really effected at all.


*Edit* Actually I'm wrong it changes alot of sounds, and I think the clash effects too. Still so far no animation differences or weird problems like kyle had.

Last edited by Tapela; 02-20-2006 at 04:53 PM.
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Old 02-20-2006, 04:50 PM   #31
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Correct, base is loaded first, then OJP basic.

If you want NewBlades to work properly in OJP, you have to ask Razor to put it SFX Effects into his code. Which I don't really like myself...


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Old 02-20-2006, 04:55 PM   #32
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JRHockney,

I'm happy that you're enjoying the "Relatively Perfect Sabers" mod that I linked to. I think the glows look very appealing, however I do have some issues with them:

1. It has a rather prominent "ghost center line". Other saber mods have been able to reduce this very thin feathery center line that runs out of the center of the saber's tip.

2. In my opinion, its saber trails are too short. They need to be lengthened by 25-35%.
1. I didn't even notice it, but what I do like is the overall brightness of this mod. I actually modified the glow on one of my sabers so that it is even brighter. Over all I do like the episode 3 v4 mod brightness too.

2. This I don't agree with at all. Watch episode 3 an you'll se that there are there are hardly any saber trails at all except for when they swing fast. In fact, I modified the saber trails on this so that they are EVEN SHORTER! lol. This way, the saber trails are movie accurate for the normal swings and have a longer trail for the power fakes (as it should be), thus making it more movie accurate over all. The only downside is the fact that the individual animations can be seen more now. I made the glow trail a little longer to hide this more, but they are still a little visible (which is fine by me). It does kind of suffer at lower FPS though. I just wish there were more animation frames to begin with.


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Old 02-20-2006, 05:42 PM   #33
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So I tried the Saberbladesv4 without OJP Enhanced and there are differences, I guess I didn't have the full mod running like Lathain said. Most noticable I guess is the actual saber itself, the glow is different than it is in OJP Enhanced also the swing trail is completely different and looks exactly like the movies in length (not short at all). The feature I liked the most is that it applies the yellow "Clash" flare thats also in OJP Enhanced for body hits, which I pretty much thought was an OJP feature :X.

Well I feel pretty stupid now but I think I'm going to keep using the pk3 because of the sounds and other stuff. Though notably Razoraces effects for the saber clashes/blocks are better and brighter but the sound and graphic effect when the saber actually hits someone in base JKA is so ugly and annoying so I prefer the prequel sounds in this mod. It also changed the force push, speed, and i think grip sounds. Push being from episode 1. So I'm sorry for suggesting the mod while not knowing much about it at all .
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Old 02-22-2006, 04:37 AM   #34
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Kyle, I played around with powerduel a bit today and I noticed that you were on the money about the players not rotating correctly. I spent a decent amount of time debugging it and fixed the problem I honestly have no idea if the TABBots broke it or if it was a basejka bug, but I got it done.


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Old 02-22-2006, 10:29 PM   #35
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Razorace,

I'm happy that my observation regarding the "single player not rotating into the match" bug was accurate. For that matter, I hope that all of my observations are accurate!

Another potential bug: I noticed that about half the time the Force Pull sound effect is not played when a lightsaber is called back to the player's hand. This has been tricky for me to nail down, as I sometimes switch between different Force Powers setups. It seems like when this bug occurs is when I have no points invested in the Force Pull power. The saber still returns to me because that feature is built into saber throw, it just won't play the Force Pull sound effect when it returns. If points have been invested into Force Pull, then said sound effect will play when the saber is called back to me. Again, sometimes this happens, and sometimes it doesn't. I'll keep an eye on it to see if I can figure out what exactly is causing the bug.

I'm VERY sorry to hear that my observation/educated guess as to why the electrostaffs weren't working was correct. Razorace, or anyone else for that matter; is there a quick solution to this scenario? Can I use a text editor to alter a file in the electrostaff's .pk3 that will make it behave and use the values that a typical saberstaff does? I'm eager to try and correct this file myself for later release if someone's willing to give me some guidance regarding what it is I need to do.





JRHockney,

I'm impressed that you're playing around with the saber effects, and I'm looking forward to trying out whatever it is you come up with. I recently watched RotS again, and my assessment of the lengths of the average lightsaber swing is different from yours. As an example of what I mean, take a look at the scene where Obi-Wan very casually severs off the Magna Droid's head that's partially trapped underneath the heavy piece of machinery that Obi-Wan has dropped on its body (this is the scene shortly after he drops down from the ceiling strut to confront Grievous). That very "lazy" and slow swing's trail is significantly longer than the ones found in the "Relatively Perfect Sabers" mod. Indeed, in my opinion, the majority of swings, including the slow ones, are to one degree or another longer than what is found in the RPS mod.

I still feel that the NewBladesV4's effects are just about as perfect as one can get, barring the stance/no 1st person view/no RGB blade bugs it has when the mod is installed in the ojpenhanced directory. After reading the last several replies, I decided to try this mod out by installing it into the "base" directory, and lo and behold all of these problems went away for me. So, I now have a basic question regarding the "bugs disappear if in the 'base' directory" scenario: is it truly bug/error free if the mod is installed in the base folder? I guess that I'm just concerned that it can still mess up the things we can't see clearly on screen, such as altering values that are othewise set by OJP E's coding. If so, then I'll continue using it, if not, well I'm off to trying once again to find the perfect lightsaber graphics.

If values are being messed with, are there certain files within its .pk3 that I can delete/alter to make it so there aren't any conflicts?

Another point regarding the RPS mod is that its trails are SO short that it's usually only the ends of the sabers that actually produce a saber trail. It's pretty common to see to see "hooked" saber trails rather than trails that are as wide as the blade is long.


Before I go, I hope that all of you give my now updated sound effects mod a try. It can be found at: http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost....76&postcount=3 .


Until next time...

Yours!

Kyle
Feb. 22, 2006



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Old 02-23-2006, 03:22 AM   #36
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The bot's electrostaff actually does 50% more damage than a normal saber, can chain up to 9 times, gets bonuses to locking, parrying, and disarming, it can't be knocked out of the user's hand... etc etc etc. Its animations are also 10% faster. Jesus Christ.

I'm so disgusted I question the wisdom of fixing this.

Second: NO to model scaling. If you ever played ForceMod II, you would see why it was THE most unbalanced thing EVER next to spawning with a rocket launcher. Especially if you picked a small fry.


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Old 02-23-2006, 03:47 AM   #37
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Does any one have any idea how to make the sabers have the massive glow that the MB2 sabers have and make it work with OJP Enhanced? No matter what I do, I can get the glow that big.


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Old 02-23-2006, 04:41 AM   #38
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Quote:
I'm eager to try and correct this file myself for later release if someone's willing to give me some guidance regarding what it is I need to do.
Go ahead and give that a shot. It's a engine bug so it could be a variety of things that are causing the crash. However, since the crash occurs on player death it's probably something that happens when you kill someone. Maybe the body hit effect?

As for the Force Pull noise when pulling back the saber, it shouldn't be possible to not hear the sound since it's always played. The only way I can see it not working if something is preventing the sound from playing on the body sound channel of that player.


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Old 02-23-2006, 06:20 AM   #39
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As far as I know, installing the NewBlades v4 mod in base directory hasnt conflicted with OJP in anyway. It is however altered when OJP runs and overwrites a few things like saber trail sizes, and how the glow is rendered. Regardless of this the blades still look very nice, if not better (I prefer the way OJP made them when i use the mod in base).

As far as I can tell from listening to the sounds and comparing them to base jka sounds/ojp sounds the NewBladesv4 pk3 edited push, almost all saber sounds, pull, speed, jumping (i guess it changed it to a cloth or boots thud). One thing that I really liked is that it changed the saberhit graphics to the yellow clash and it changed the sounds so its more of a "pop" if that makes any sense. Its more like in the newer movies were it made a flash and had a pop sound, i love the effect and its what probably makes me keep the mod most.
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Old 02-23-2006, 07:50 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tapela
As far as I know, installing the NewBlades v4 mod in base directory hasnt conflicted with OJP in anyway. It is however altered when OJP runs and overwrites a few things like saber trail sizes, and how the glow is rendered. Regardless of this the blades still look very nice, if not better (I prefer the way OJP made them when i use the mod in base).

As far as I can tell from listening to the sounds and comparing them to base jka sounds/ojp sounds the NewBladesv4 pk3 edited push, almost all saber sounds, pull, speed, jumping (i guess it changed it to a cloth or boots thud). One thing that I really liked is that it changed the saberhit graphics to the yellow clash and it changed the sounds so its more of a "pop" if that makes any sense. Its more like in the newer movies were it made a flash and had a pop sound, i love the effect and its what probably makes me keep the mod most.
Those sounds are from the saberclashmod. Their Ok, but their are better saber sound mods available in my opinion, like the sounds with moviestances2.0 and clouds sounds. I forget which sound it is, but there was one sound in the saberclashmod that was really annoying to me. Once I deleted that sound, it made playing with it alot better.


Game screen name: Master Jon Hoc Ni

UDM Quote: in singapore, gangsters are...skinny jacka**es who think they can 0wn you. they hurl insults at u, and then lose in a fight. n00bs
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Go Back   LucasForums > Network > JediKnight Series > Community > Hosted Forums > Open Jedi Project (OJP) > A COMPREHENSIVE review of OJP E, Feb. '06

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