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Old 02-20-2006, 03:36 PM   #1
darth traya_321
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how to turn the handmaiden to the dark side

i have played the game lot's of time's to find interesting thing's i didn't find when i play it before. but i can't turn the handmaiden to the dark side?? if i try i'll lose trust in her. and if i hang around with for a while kriea tell's her that my chacater like's visas.


what should i do???


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Old 02-20-2006, 03:49 PM   #2
Diego Varen
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First off this is in the wrong Forum. This should be in the Padawan's Lounge.

Second, to not lose trust with the Handmaiden, you need to have more influence with her than Visas. Otherwise she will never talk to you for the rest of the game. Check out Achille's Influence Guide for more help on how to get Influence with the Handmaiden.
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Old 02-20-2006, 04:08 PM   #3
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It can be done just remember one important thing, Handmaiden prefers LS acts so if you want to be DS and have her in your party park here somewhere if your going to slaughter people. (solo mode) This was you don't lose influence.



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Old 02-20-2006, 05:01 PM   #4
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She still seems to know what you're doing, I've tried it. It's hard.... I've never been able to get her 100% Dark before.
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Old 02-20-2006, 05:21 PM   #5
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Here is everything you could want to know about her (this is taken from Ćon's Advanced Knights of the Old Republic II - The Sith Lords FAQ v3.2 - 137 Q&As, for PC version of KotOR II - 12/5/2005):

HANDMAIDEN

*What is up with Handmaiden?

Handmaiden is a Soldier and can be turned into a Jedi Guardian.

You can *only* add Handmaiden to your party when you are playing a *male* PC.

To the Echani the forms in hand-to-hand combat are everything, so that sparring with Handmaiden on board the Ebon Hawk is important to unlock her backstory and turn her into a Jedi.

If your Influence with Visas Marr is higher than with Handmaiden, you will see the latter become jealous. (GreenTwilek)



*How to Influence Handmaiden?

The Echani live for combat.

Handmaiden (much like Disciple) likes LS acts, and you are likely to lose Influence with her when you do something DS.

You can turn her to the Dark Side if your PC is strongly DS and already has Influence over her, but even then she will protest when she *sees* you committing any crimes.

Some of the dialogs with Handmaiden will actually *only* work with *low* Influence. In other words later in the game with high Influence these fail:

To 'get' the Handmaiden's Robe, ask her "Do you think you could put some clothes on?". With a low Influence, she will don the 'bulkier' gray robes inherited from her mother.

Tip: To avoid gaining Influence via sparring (where she would automatically disrobe), simply open the Equip screen, select the Handmaiden (Tab-key) and replace Clothing with None, then ask the above.

Bug: After Handmaiden has donned her mother's robe, do *not* directly spar with here! Because before the sparring she will disrobe, and suddenly Handmaiden's Robe is *gone* from the inventory. To avoid this, manually disrobe her via the Equip screen *before* you start sparring.

Another interesting dialog can be triggered with "I wanted to ask you about Atris.". Any [Influence Failure] results from too *high* Influence with Handmaiden, so remember to ask the question early on.



On Onderon, Cantina give the "Spy" for the Republic Senate an Open Visa to gain Influence with Handmaiden (or Disciple or Bao-Dur). (Ace Savoron)



*How to turn Handmaiden into a Jedi?

Differing from turning Mira into a Jedi via dialogs alone, with Handmaiden the player's Level limits how quickly Handmaiden can be turned into a Jedi. Influencing Handmaiden on the other hand is quite simple though.

The first time you talk to Handmaiden (you have none, or almost no Influence on her), disrobe her from the Equip screen and then ask her to put on some clothes. She will don her mother's Jedi robes. Do this to ensure she gets the nice robes! (LS points)

Once you have reached Level 10, ask her to spar with you (manually un-equip her robes first or they will be lost!). Winning yields LS points and Influence.

At Level 14, ask her to spar with you again, for more Influence.

At Level 18, ask her to spar for the 3rd and last time, for Influence. She will teach you Battle Precognition - on how to add your Wisdom Bonus (WIS; any wisdom upgrades you can equip are such wisdom bonuses) to your Defense.

Offer to teach Handmaiden, this will fail, but gain LS points.

Talking to Kreia will reveal that she knew Handmaiden's mother was a Jedi.

Finally talk to Handmaiden, and tell her about her Jedi mother, follow the dialog, and turn Handmaiden into a Jedi Guardian.


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Old 02-20-2006, 05:24 PM   #6
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And now excerpts from Achilles Influence Guide:

Ebon Hawk - Escape From Telos

Handmaiden - Influence Increase - Interestingly, your objective during your very first influential meeting with Handmaiden is to avoid influence-related options altogether. Unfortunately, this isn't possible, but you can minimize the damage. During the cutscene select "Do you think we need help?" followed by "When you put it like that, then welcome aboard.". While this isn't exactly Dark Side, it is important to note that the Dark Side options would have cost you influence that would be impossible to regain without gaining Light Side points. For the final part of this conversation, select either "Look, forget Atton. Take the regular quarters, we have enough room." or "Don't let them bother you - we've just been through a lot." (Handmaiden: 58).

After the cutscene, the gloves come off so go speak to Handmaiden and initiate the first of three duels with her. If you win, you will gain influence with her (Handmaiden: 66).

With that accomplished go back and select "I wanted to ask you about Atris.". Stick with first option until you get to the part where she states "I see. I have asked you many questions - I did not mean to. They are questions that have gathered over years, and I did not wish to ask Atris.". Reply with "Only fools fear questions - and their answers." (Handmaiden: 74).

NOTE: It is important that you ask her about Atris before getting to 69% influence or higher. Apparently, once Handmaiden starts taking a liking to you, the subject of Atris makes her moody.

Speak to her one more time and ask her "Why do you look different than your sisters?". You will have sufficient influcence to unlock convince her to share her family history. The objective here is to make it to the end of the conversation where she swears alligience to you. If you make it there, you will gain another dose of influence (Handmaiden: 82).

NOTE: After you've finished speaking to Handmaiden, seek out Kreia. She seems upset that others are joining you. Stick with Dark Side options and end this conversation as soon as it runs it course. Now talk to her again and she will begin to question the amount of time that you are spending with Handmaiden. Stick to Neutral/Dark Side options here and finish the conversation. She will mention Handmaiden's Jedi heritage, unlocking a vital dialog option that will allow you to gain influence with Handmaiden later in the game. You can go speak to Handmaiden again, however you will not have sufficient influence with her to complete that portion of the dialog.


Nar Shaddaa

Handmaiden - Influence Decrease - After the scene in the medbay, Handmaiden will state "She is a threat to us.". Reply with "She is useful, and I do not mean to kill her yet." (Handmaiden: 74).

Ebon Hawk

Handmaiden - Influence Increase - If you are at Level 14 or above (and you probably should be at this point), you can initiate the second sparring match for more influence (Handmaiden: 82). After this match, she will stop you to question why it is that you choose to go back and face the Jedi Counsel at your trial. Any response that you provide will gain you influence (Handmaiden: 90).

NOTE: You now have sufficient influence to train Handmaiden, however just as you had to trigger the conversation with the Twi'leks before you train Atton, you must complete the last sparring match with Handmaiden before she can become a Dark Jedi Guardian.


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Old 02-21-2006, 09:12 PM   #7
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thank you very much drtiniman. later i guess i will ask more questiones but later on.


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Old 02-22-2006, 02:23 AM   #8
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Actually you can turn the Handmaiden to the Dark Side and gain influence. Just train with her on the Ebon Hawk and answer her questions and you will gain influence with her and her alignment will change to yours. And this is also how you convince her to become a Jedi, or in this case, a Dark Jedi Guardian. But make sure you don't do evil deeds infront of her, or she'll get mad.


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Old 02-22-2006, 02:20 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
Actually you can turn the Handmaiden to the Dark Side and gain influence. Just train with her on the Ebon Hawk and answer her questions and you will gain influence with her and her alignment will change to yours. And this is also how you convince her to become a Jedi, or in this case, a Dark Jedi Guardian. But make sure you don't do evil deeds infront of her, or she'll get mad.
Unfortunately, it isn't quite that simple. The sparring matches will only gain you 24 point of influence. Considering that Handmaiden starts out with 50, that will get you to 74, which is 16 points shy of the 90 that you need to be able to train her.

Of course, this doesn't account for the opportunities that present themselves right after she joins your party and again after Visas' attack. With these, you'll get to 90, but then again, you do have to give LS responses (thereby risking LS points). I suppose it might be unfair to assume that the average player would know to do this instinctively. In fact, I would venture to guess that someone playing DS would automatically go with DS responses which would actually cost the player influence (making it harder to train her as a DS Jedi).

So as much as it pains me to do it, I have to disagree. Bringing Handmaiden to the DS isn't that simple. You have to know exactly what to say and when to say it, and the choices and the timing aren't that obvious. If you have alternative detailed walkthrough or guide that you would like to offer, I'm sure that it would have considerable benefit for the community.
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Old 02-22-2006, 03:43 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Achilles
Unfortunately, it isn't quite that simple. The sparring matches will only gain you 24 point of influence. Considering that Handmaiden starts out with 50, that will get you to 74, which is 16 points shy of the 90 that you need to be able to train her.
And I'm going to have to disagree with you since I've beaten TSL like 30 times. I do know that the Handmaiden doesn't even have to leave the Ebon Hawk, and you can train her to be a Jedi Guardian or a Dark Jedi Guardian and I know this because I have done it several times that I can do it in my sleep.

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Originally Posted by Achilles
Of course, this doesn't account for the opportunities that present themselves right after she joins your party
If you are nice to the Handmaiden, there is no alignment shift and the beauty of it is no Light Side points are granted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
and again after Visas' attack. With these, you'll get to 90, but then again, you do have to give LS responses (thereby risking LS points).
The only time you risk Light Side points is when you talk to the Handmaiden about Visas. If you say you won't harm her, you don't lose or gain influence with the Handmaiden, but get influence with Visas. It's the only time you take the Light Side points, but other responses duirng the confrontation, before the Handmaiden confronts you can get you a net shift of Dark Side points when it's all over. So in the long run, you get a Dark Side shift.


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So as much as it pains me to do it, I have to disagree. Bringing Handmaiden to the DS isn't that simple. You have to know exactly what to say and when to say it, and the choices and the timing aren't that obvious.
That's why you play the game. And that's to learn. All the stuff I learned I got from playing the X-Box version before the PC version even came out.

When you play both sides of the Force, people should be taking notes on what works and what doesn't and what different responses do and if there is influence gain/loss and does it result in a light/dark shift.


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Old 02-22-2006, 07:07 PM   #11
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it's very easy to train her but when i train her and im in the dark side i tell her to turn to the dark side. she does but her robe isn't black and her aligment is still to the light side. so that's my question. can u guys help me even though i've ask to much


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Old 02-22-2006, 09:36 PM   #12
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she does but her robe isn't black and her aligment is still to the light side
... if her allignment doesn't change, then she's not going Dark Side.
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Old 02-23-2006, 12:04 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darth traya_321
it's very easy to train her but when i train her and im in the dark side i tell her to turn to the dark side. she does but her robe isn't black and her aligment is still to the light side.
Handmaiden's robe does not change color to match her alignment (unlike her clothing). If you can train her after you've gained enough or lost enough influence with her. The dialog checks for your alignment, not her's hence why it reads "Dark Jedi Guardian". It sounds as though you've lost enough influence with her to train her, but keep in mind that the if you lose influence, the NPCs will go opposite your alignment. Therefore you'll be DS, but she'll be LS. The only way to make her DS is gain influence with her and unfortunately, that's a little tricky when you're DS.


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Originally Posted by Shem
And I'm going to have to disagree with you since I've beaten TSL like 30 times. I do know that the Handmaiden doesn't even have to leave the Ebon Hawk, and you can train her to be a Jedi Guardian or a Dark Jedi Guardian and I know this because I have done it several times that I can do it in my sleep.
Wonderful. Then you should have absolutely no problem giving the specific progression for how you've accomplished this. In the mean time, I'm sticking with the 3 months that I spent digging around through dialog files, game scripts, and testing playthoughs. By the way, my evidence (which is well documented) does not support your claim. Feel free to drop the matter at any time


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Originally Posted by Shem
If you are nice to the Handmaiden, there is no alignment shift and the beauty of it is no Light Side points are granted.
Very true in some cases. This doesn't escape the fact that you have to choose LS dialog options while playing DS. I never said it wasn't possible. I did say it's inconsistent and that someone playing through without the benefit of a guide probably wouldn't do that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
The only time you risk Light Side points is when you talk to the Handmaiden about Visas. If you say you won't harm her, you don't lose or gain influence with the Handmaiden, but get influence with Visas. It's the only time you take the Light Side points, but other responses duirng the confrontation, before the Handmaiden confronts you can get you a net shift of Dark Side points when it's all over. So in the long run, you get a Dark Side shift.
Only if you know what you're doing (again via the benefit of a guide or personal experience from multiple playthroughs). There are two INF related dialog options for Handmaiden during that whole thing; both are decreases. One will has no shift, the other has DS shift.


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That's why you play the game. And that's to learn. All the stuff I learned I got from playing the X-Box version before the PC version even came out.
Congratulations.

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Originally Posted by Shem
When you play both sides of the Force, people should be taking notes on what works and what doesn't and what different responses do and if there is influence gain/loss and does it result in a light/dark shift.
Sure, but walkthroughs save others that trouble. But that's off topic
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Old 02-23-2006, 03:48 AM   #14
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Wonderful. Then you should have absolutely no problem giving the specific progression for how you've accomplished this. In the mean time, I'm sticking with the 3 months that I spent digging around through dialog files, game scripts, and testing playthoughs. By the way, my evidence (which is well documented) does not support your claim. Feel free to drop the matter at any time
Then I STRONGLY suggest you do more research because you you totally overlooked several things that you could have figured out within a hour or less.

Quote:
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Unfortunately, it isn't quite that simple. The sparring matches will only gain you 24 point of influence. Considering that Handmaiden starts out with 50, that will get you to 74, which is 16 points shy of the 90 that you need to be able to train her.
I think it's time I get more specific about this. Your research obviously overlooked this.

The Handmaiden does start off with 50, correct. Your first influence chance happens when she reveals herself on the Ebon Hawk. You tell her you welcome her aboard and that you can forget Atton and she thanks you. It never shows it, but you get 8 points influence. There, now you have her at 58 and the beauty of this is no Light Side shift.

When you ask her to train with you and after the first fight, you get 16 points influence and then your influence is now at 74.

You need to be at level 14 to do the next fight. Then when you do that next one, you get 8 points to influence, which puts you at 82.

Then you need to be at level 18 for the final fight. After you complete that fight, you get 16 points influence, which puts you at 98.

And notice that I didn't even put in about asking the Handmaiden about her mother and that gets you 8 points influence, which leads her to become a Jedi after you find out that information and talking to Kreia about it.

Now I thinks it's time for you to drop the matter, and I didn't start this. You started this by telling me that you don't agree with me. I challenge you to check this out first before you decide to reply because you will see that I am right and that you can make the Handmaiden a Dark Jedi Guardian without the benefit of having her leave the Ebon Hawk. And I've know this since December of '04.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Very true in some cases. This doesn't escape the fact that you have to choose LS dialog options while playing DS. I never said it wasn't possible. I did say it's inconsistent and that someone playing through without the benefit of a guide probably wouldn't do that.
Okay, fine. I'll tell you what would happen if you do it by being Dark Side to the Handmaiden at first and losing influence with her.

So you tell her off and now your are at 42 with her. Then you train with her and get 16 points, which puts you at 58. You train with her again, and get another 8 points, and that puts you at 66. Then you ask about her mother, which gives you another 8 points, and you are at 74. Talk to Kreia and learn about Kae, and then train with her again for the last time and get 16 points, which puts you at 90 points influence with her and you can train her as a Dark Jedi Guardian and never once does the Handmaiden have to leave the Ebon Hawk until she is a Jedi.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Only if you know what you're doing (again via the benefit of a guide or personal experience from multiple playthroughs).
Again, isn't that why we are here? To answer questions so people will know? Isn't this what this thread is about? Aren't we helping Darth Traya 321?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
The only way to make her DS is gain influence with her and unfortunately, that's a little tricky when you're DS.
It's not tricky. I've shown that with this post. I think the reason why you say that is to discourage people to try it, and go to your influence thread and do it your way. You seem with past posts with me in our debates that my way is always too complicated and that your way is the better way. So quit trying to play that off anymore, please?

The fact anybody is here asking questions is showing us that they need help, and the ways I show them are real ways that aren't complicated. The Handmaiden turning to the Dark Side is an example to how simple this is.


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Last edited by Shem; 02-23-2006 at 04:27 AM.
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Old 02-23-2006, 11:34 AM   #15
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Again, isn't that why we are here? To answer questions so people will know? Isn't this what this thread is about? Aren't we helping Darth Traya 321?
Yes it is. Interestingly, it took you 3 posts to get to the point where you actually offered some assistance. I realize that you probably think your first post was helpful, but anyone not inside your head probably doesn't have any idea what you were trying to communicate, therefore it actually wasn't very helpful at all.

I will respond to the rest of your post via PM, except to point out here that you are mistakenly under the impression that you get 2 INF shifts during your first duel with Handmaiden, when in fact you only get one. Just thought I would clear that up to avoid having any more erroneous information confusing the matter for other readers. Not sure how that will impact the rest of your "guide" but it's clear that it will need some adjustment.
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Old 02-23-2006, 01:52 PM   #16
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except to point out here that you are mistakenly under the impression that you get 2 INF shifts during your first duel with Handmaiden, when in fact you only get one. Just thought I would clear that up to avoid having any more erroneous information confusing the matter for other readers. Not sure how that will impact the rest of your "guide" but it's clear that it will need some adjustment.
What's wrong with it? You train with her, she asks about Force, you train with her again, ask about her mother, talk to Kreia about Kae (her mother), train with her again, she asks about your trial, and that opens the door to train her as a Jedi. If you are dark, she'll be dark with you.

Now, I assume that people do know that if you want her a Dark Jedi, you need her to have your alignment, and that means, don't say things to make her mad. And you can do this without the Handmaiden leaving the Ebon Hawk and no Light Side shifts. Try it, and you'll see that I'm right about this.


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Old 02-23-2006, 02:26 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
What's wrong with it? You train with her
58
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Originally Posted by Shem
she asks about Force
Still 58. You do not get an INF shift for this dialog.
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Originally Posted by Shem
you train with her again
66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
ask about her mother
Still 66. There is no INF shift for this dialog.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
talk to Kreia about Kae (her mother), train with her again
74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
she asks about your trial
82
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Originally Posted by Shem
and that opens the door to train her as a Jedi.
Not quite. You need to be at or above 90 first.
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Originally Posted by Shem
If you are dark, she'll be dark with you.
Yep, absolutely correct.

If you feel that any of my point are incorrect please feel free to post the supporting dialog entries and I'll update both the walkthrough and the guide (with your permission). Of course you would get full credit in the readme.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
Now, I assume that people do know that if you want her a Dark Jedi, you need her to have your alignment, and that means, don't say things to make her mad. And you can do this without the Handmaiden leaving the Ebon Hawk and no Light Side shifts. Try it, and you'll see that I'm right about this.
I never said that you couldn't (in fact, she never leaves the Hawk in my DS walkthrough ). What I did say is that your progression appears to be incomplete and that anyone attempting to follow it would not be able to reproduce your results. My apologies if I did not make that clear before.
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Old 02-23-2006, 02:37 PM   #18
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she asks about Force
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Still 58. You do not get an INF shift for this dialog. 66 Still 66. There is no INF shift for this dialog.
I always have 74 after this point. Again, I challenge you to try it, and others to verify. Would someone who has the tools to check this out, please do so it will show Achilles I'm right and that others will know this too.

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Originally Posted by Shem
you train with her again
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
66
At this point, you are 82. Again, I issue the challenge.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
82 Not quite. You need to be at or above 90 first.
Yep, absolutely correct.
At this point, you should be at 100.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
If you feel that any of my point are incorrect please feel free to post the supporting dialog entries and I'll update both the walkthrough and the guide (with your permission). Of course you would get full credit in the readme.
I will show you this. But not right now since I have to run out the door in five minutes. I'll work on this more tonight, but I will be in and out since I do have a basketball game to play tonight.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
I never said that you couldn't (in fact, she never leaves the Hawk in my DS walkthrough ). What I did say is that your progression appears to be incomplete and that anyone attempting to follow it would not be able to reproduce your results. My apologies if I did not make that clear before.
I also ask someone else to try this who has the tools to check influence updates while in the progress of training her. They will see that I'm right.


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Old 02-23-2006, 02:58 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
I always have 74 after this point.
I suspect that you're including INF shifts from her initial dialog while joining the party, which would put you at 74 (or even higher). Since you didn't include them, I didn't consider them. Perhaps you need better notes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
Again, I challenge you to try it
I don't need to. I already know that it won't work . Open up the dialog and look for yourself; none of the options in those dialogs fire a_influence_inc or a_influence_dec. That means no shift. Can't change the facts, my friend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
Would someone who has the tools to check this out, please do so it will show Achilles I'm right and that others will know this too.
I'll be the first to volunteer. I've looked at the dialogs and scripts. Nothing there, boss. If you took a few moments to do the same, you would see for yourself. Your attempt to pawn this off on others is bemusing, though. I wonder why you're so hesitant to the heavy lifting yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
At this point, you are 82. Again, I issue the challenge.
Possibly, but not by following the progression that you've provided. My response to your challenge is the Influence Walkthrough posted in this forum which is supported by the Influence Guide available on my website. The Guide was created directly out of the game files themselves. The Influence Guide was verified using multiple playthoughs (sorry I didn't keep count). So, I have repeatedly met your challenges, however you have yet to answer mine. Show me the dialog entries that support your claims and I'll happily admit defeat, update the guide, and give you full credit for the find. So far, I appear to be the only one willing to admit that I might be wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
I will show you this. But not right now since I have to run out the door in five minutes. I'll work on this more tonight, but I will be in and out since I do have a basketball game to play tonight.
How convenient. I, for one, am eagerly awaiting your response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
I also ask someone else to try this who has the tools to check influence updates while in the progress of training her. They will see that I'm right.
Yes, we'll also see that you're right as soon as you post some evidence that supports your claim. Stop asking others to do your dirty work.
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Old 02-23-2006, 07:43 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
I suspect that you're including INF shifts from her initial dialog while joining the party, which would put you at 74 (or even higher). Since you didn't include them, I didn't consider them. Perhaps you need better notes?
I think you need better notes. I guess that is why we're talking, huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
I don't need to. I already know that it won't work
That's a good way to set yourself up for a big fall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Open up the dialog and look for yourself; none of the options in those dialogs fire a_influence_inc or a_influence_dec. That means no shift. Can't change the facts, my friend.
You've misread the files then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Your attempt to pawn this off on others is bemusing, though. I wonder why you're so hesitant to the heavy lifting yourself.
You keep setting yourself up for a big fall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
So far, I appear to be the only one willing to admit that I might be wrong.
When you have done something so many times, you can't count, why admit to something you know isn't there. I know I'm not going to be wrong about this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
How convenient. I, for one, am eagerly awaiting your response.
Well, Achilles (If you happen to know a members real name, Please be respectful and not post it in public unless they give you permission to do so. ), I can't always be around my computer, unlike you. I have a life, I have responsiblities. I have a beautiful wife (a pic of us is provided in my profile).

Yes, we'll also see that you're right as soon as you post some evidence that supports your claim. Stop asking others to do your dirty work.[/QUOTE]


Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
But I'm ready to show you how I'm right about this. Below is my summary.
Haven't you notice, this is a public debate. People are reading this and some are wondering who is right. All I've asked is for those people to see it for themselves if they are in doubt who is right. It's not dirty work, so quit trying to make me look bad.

And I will expect your apology after all this, and especially how you treated me in your PM.

__________________________________________________ _____________

Handmaiden to Jedi progress report

This is a guide to making the Handmaiden to a Jedi.

Please note that my PC (the Exile) is named, Torran. Also the Handmaiden's name will be Brianna, since it is her real name.
I'm also using pictures from the dialogue entries to give you a visual guide.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ss/HandD11.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ss/HandD12.jpg

At this point, the Handmaiden's influence is at 58 points. No Light or Dark Side shifts have been made with my PC.

Now I approach her to train with her. I've included all the dialogue until the first fight is over.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ss/HandD21.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ss/HandD22.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ss/HandD23.jpg

At this point, you have gained 16 points in influence, and your influence total points is now 74 points. No Light or Dark Side shifts have been made with my PC. There is a save point at the end of the dialogues in this area that starts off as, "No all Jedi Knights fell in battle..." that has nothing to do with the previous fight.

Now I approach her to train with again for the second time. Again, I've included all the dialogue until the second fight is over.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ss/HandD31.jpg

At this point, you have gained just 8 points in influence, and your current influence level is now 82 points. No Light or Dark Side shifts have been made with my PC. Again there is a save point at the very bottom.

Now it's time to ask the Handmaiden why she looks different than her sisters.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ss/HandD41.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ss/HandD42.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ss/HandD43.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ss/HandD44.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ss/HandD45.jpg

Now you have gained another 8 points in influence, and your current influence level is now 90 points. The beauty of this is there is that a Dark Side shift has been made by my PC and I got influence. Talk about a score. One thing has happened here is that you now have the nessessary influence points to train her as a Jedi, you just need to train with her one more time. Again there is a save point at the very bottom.

The next thing you need to do is talk to Kreia and in the bottom pics, it will reveal who the Handmaiden's mother was.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ss/HandD51.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ss/HandD52.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ss/HandD53.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ss/HandD54.jpg

No Light or Dark Side shifts have been made with my PC, or influence with Kreia has been changed. You're still at 90 points influence with the Handmaiden. Again there is a save point at the very bottom.

Now you go and ask the Handmaiden to show you the final instruction.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ss/HandD61.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ss/HandD62.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ss/HandD63.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ss/HandD64.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ss/HandD65.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ss/HandD66.jpg

There you can see the Handmaiden has now become a Dark Jedi Guardian. No Light or Dark Side shifts have been made with my PC. Now at this point, you would have gained 16 points in influence, but due to the fact that you were at 90, you only get 10 points, and your influence with the Handmaiden is now at 100 points.

Questions? Comments?

A great way to see the Handmaiden's influence progress is to check it once you have gain any influence with her to see how it matches up.


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Last edited by T7nowhere; 02-23-2006 at 08:52 PM.
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Old 02-23-2006, 08:22 PM   #21
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You've definitely shown your ability to take screenshots of the dialog screen *clapping*. What your screenshots do not include is INF shifts. The arbitrary shifts that you've outlined in your post are wrong, and this is probably the 3rd or 4th time I've pointed that out.

Tell you what I'll do. Since the excel spreadsheet containing every single INF-related dialog in the game doesn't do it for you, I will take some time this evening to screenshot the actual dialog files for you. Maybe that will be enough, but somehow I suspect that it won't be...
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Old 02-23-2006, 08:28 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
You've definitely shown your ability to take screenshots of the dialog screen *clapping*. What your screenshots do not include is INF shifts. The arbitrary shifts that you've outlined in your post are wrong, and this is probably the 3rd or 4th time I've pointed that out.
OMG, you just can't admit defeat. I even included in my summary to check your influence with the Handmaiden after each shift to prove my point. I hope somebody checks this out for themselves and gets back to here and verifies it for me, or as you would say "Do the dirty work for me", which it isn't. It's just verifying it for themselves.

There is no flaw in this work, you just don't have enough courage to admit it.


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Old 02-23-2006, 08:54 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
OMG, you just can't admit defeat. I even included in my summary to check your influence with the Handmaiden after each shift to prove my point. I hope somebody checks this out for themselves and gets back to here and verifies it for me, or as you would say "Do the dirty work for me", which it isn't. It's just verifying it for themselves.

There is no flaw in this work, you just don't have enough courage to admit it.
your....summary....is....wrong. I can try all caps if it will help, but that's considered rude. It is your summary, not the game's summary, therefore it is unreliable. Don't worry, I'm still taking lots of pretty screenshots for you
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Old 02-23-2006, 08:56 PM   #24
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Keep it civil lads. Or I'll keep it civil for you.

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Old 02-23-2006, 09:01 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
your....summary....is....wrong. I can try all caps if it will help, but that's considered rude. It is your summary, not the game's summary, therefore it is unreliable
It's not unreliable. All someone has to do is follow dialogue options I have provided in the pics and they will see that my way works. If someone is tired of this debate, just do what I suggest and verify it for me.

Also after each influence gain, I would suggest to either check it with the KSA, or the Remote Tells Influence mod over at PCGM to show you that I know what I'm talking about.


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Keep it civil lads. Or I'll keep it civil for you.
I'll do my best to make sure of it.


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Old 02-24-2006, 01:44 AM   #26
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I'll do my best to make sure of it.
No you really haven't Shem, this is the problem I see here. (Including the above attempt earlier to post someones real name, and try to tell them they have no life. Bad form Shem!)

As you go on you are coming off more and more badly. Achilles confidence in his findings, and his posts here to you, seem to have you bound and determined to attempt to undermine what he has done or somehow you now need to prove him wrong on something that Achilles has done in his free time mind you, to try and help people out in the community with the influence aspect of the game.

Also you seem unwilling or unable to recognise what Achilles intentions with his guide was, he wasn't attempting to circumvent the influence system, see his guide is based on the assumption that you would want to play in-character with your PC's LS or DS alignment, hence your dialog responses would be the appropriate ones, and limited accordingly.

My honest suggestion to you is to make up an influence guide of your own and post it here like Achilles did, while his Influence guide focuses on playing in-character, yours would be different in that you are including possible influence or dialog exploits, this doesn't seem like a bad thing to me.

But to quote Grand Moff Tarkin... "This bickering is pointless!"

Just my 2 cents.


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Old 02-24-2006, 01:56 AM   #27
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No you really haven't Shem, this is the problem I see here. (Including the above attempt earlier to post someones real name, and try to tell them they have no life. Bad form Shem!)
I felt that was pervoked and that I had to defend my self. When I said I had to go, he said quote...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
How convenient. I, for one, am eagerly awaiting your response.
I felt like he was accusing me of running away when I really had to go.

Mod Edit: So you go and resort to a violation of privacy and a personal attack, because of this? Can you honestly tell me that what you think was said to you warranted what you did? I'm sorry, but no post warrants such a response.

Bottom line, You took offence far too easily, and really took offence at nothing. You need to grow some thicker skin, and think twice before you post. If you find a post offensive then you need to report that post instead and let cooler heads prevail (Click on the little yellow dot below the posters name box on the post, and give the reason in the box.), but please refrain from replying with any form of personal attack. No excuse for them is acceptable.

Deal strictly with the subject matter at hand and not the other poster, you will go further that way.
-RH


Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawke
As you go on you are coming off more and more badly. Achilles confidence in his findings, and his posts here to you, seem to have you bound and determined to attempt to undermine what he has done or somehow you now need to prove him wrong on something that Achilles has done in his free time mind you, to try and help people out in the community with the influence aspect of the game.
And I try to help the community. But when I know from my personal experience that what I've done is correct, and get attacked for being wrong. How would you feel if this happen to you? All I asked him to do is try it the way I have provided. That's all and I know it will have the results that I have given. I don't feel a need to prove Achilles wrong. I feel a need to prove that my way is right and that others will know it's right and will know it will work the way I have shown it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawke
My honest suggestion to you is to make up an influence guide of your own and post it here like Achilles did, while his Influence guide focuses on playing in-character, yours would be different in that you are including possible influence or dialog exploits, this doesn't seem like a bad thing to me.
Personally I really don't have that kind of time. My wife would kill me for being on the computer that much more than I already am. However, just because I didn't make a guide, doesn't mean I can't help others out with solutions of influence and I will not say something I know isn't true. And just because Achilles made a guide (and a good one at that), doesn't give him more authority than me. If you really knew me, you would know my intentions.


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Last edited by RedHawke; 02-24-2006 at 03:05 AM.
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Old 02-24-2006, 02:52 AM   #28
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First, some background:

handmaiden.dlg is the dialog file that contains a majority of the entries and responses for the conversations that take place between The Exile and Handmaiden while on board the Ebon Hawk. Holorec.dlg also contains a few influence related-dialogs, but even though you are on the Ebon Hawk the game considers you to be on Coruscant. Visasmarr.dlg also has a few lines, but they are only influence decreases, so we won't consider them too much here.

a_influence_inc is the script that is resposible for increasing influence with each of your party NPCs. In order for this script to work, it needs two parameters (which are both provided in the dialog files). The first parameter indicates who

the influence shift effects (4=handmaiden) and the second indicates how much influence is gained. The devs originally intended to have small, medium, and large influence shifts, however it appears that they ran out of time, so they set all three increments to 8.

You can verify this by opening a_influence_inc yourself using KotOR Tool, or by looking at this screenshot.

As you can see, influence can only be shifted in increments of 8. There is a bug in the Nar Shaddaa Refugee Quad that allows influence to be shifted by smaller increments, but no where is it shifted by larger increments. Please keep in mind that this is the only script that allows influence to be increased.

Ok, this is a condensed version of what I did for the guide (and the resulting walkthough). These results can be duplicated 100% by any of you. The tools aren't that difficult to use and I've done most of the hard work for you, so if you want to verify any of this, it shouldn't take you that long.

1st, open up FindREFs and search for a_influence_inc in TSL. You should get quite a few results, but we're only interested in those for Handmaiden while she's on the Ebon Hawk, so we only need to focus on any hits for handmaiden.dlg and holorec.dlg. Here's a screenshot of what you get:

FindREFs results

As you can see, there are 8 entries (e___) and 3 replies (r___) for handmaiden.dlg and 3 for holorec.dlg (not shown).

Please note that in one instance, the same entry is used twice (the 1st and 2nd dueling rounds), so you should count e267 twice (for a total of 12 entries).

Next, open up DLGEditor and use it to open up either of the .dlg files. You can use View>Go To Index to find each of the specific dialog entries. I've also provided the screenshots for you:

Holorec.dlg

All three of these influence shifts require that you're kind to Handmaiden after she joins you on the Ebon Hawk. Not hard to do, but probably not your first instinct if you're playing DS.
r122
r132
r133


Handmaiden.dlg

e108 This is where Handmaiden vows to fight with you.
e124 This fires after The Exile and Handmaiden discuss Atris and she indicates that she's beginning to trust you.
e184 This is one that takes place while she is becoming a Jedi, specifically where she is breaking her oath to Atris. This is only available if you're already over 90%.
e267 This is the influence shift that you get after beating Handmaiden in the 1st and 2nd duels. Note this only fires if you beat her and only immediately after the fight is over.
e290 This is the influence shift that you get after beating Handmaiden in the 3rd duel.
e299 This only comes into play if you violate the conditions of the duel and can convince Handmaiden that you are justified for doing so. Please note that if you use this option, it replaces one of the influcence shifts that you gain for the corresponding duel.

These are entries that were cut from the game. They were originally intended to be used after the medbay scene after Visas attacks you on the Ebon Hawk, however that dialog was moved to Visasmarr.dlg. Since the entries in visasmarr.dlg are only influence decreases, I won't include them here.
r387
r388

These are all influence shifts that occur when you respond to her question about why you returned to face the Jedi Counsel. As you can see, you have to work pretty hard to get this one wrong.
e270
e271
r399


So to summarize, there are only a handful of influence increase opportunities with Handmaiden while onboard the Ebon Hawk. e184 is only available after you've begun to train Handmaiden, so it can't be considered here (since you have to have 90% to even unlock it). This means that 1 of the 12 can't be used to get to 90%. 2 of the remaining 11 were cut so that leaves 9. 3 of those are all attached to the same conversation and can't be used cumulatively, that means 2 of them don't count which leaves you with 7. 1 of those 7 can be used in place of one of the duels, so really you only have 6 (3 duels, the vow, the conversation about Atris, and her questions about why you went back to face the Counsel).

5*8=48 and 50+48=98, but don't forget that if you're playing DS, you you're going to take a few hits throughout the game (up to -16 in holorec.dlg and -8 in visasmarr.dlg), with will put you around 74 or 82 depending on how you play it.

In other words, Shem may have an alternative method for getting to 90 (or above), however the information thus far has been erroneous (you do not get 16 points for any of the 3 duels, as he stated in previous posts) and incomplete (his input is not very specific or detailed). Any specific documentation that can be verified by some method other than "because I said so" or "as soon as someone else does it and posts that they did it" will be included in my guide with full credit given.

Last edited by Achilles; 02-24-2006 at 03:03 AM.
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Old 02-24-2006, 03:02 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
In other words, Shem may have an alternative method for getting to 90 (or above), however the information thus far has been erroneous (you do not get 16 points during any of the duels, as he stated in previous posts) or incomplete (his input is not very specific or detailed). Any specific documentation that can be verified by some method other than "because I said so" or "as soon as someone else does it and posts that they did it" will be included in my guide with full credit given.
I'm going to ask politley. Would you just please play a game where you leave on the Ebon Hawk from the Polar Region? Have the Handmaiden join your party and do what I have asked in my summary. You can get 16 points in two of your duels with the Handmaiden. I checked three times in the last 24 hours just to make sure it was correct. I wouldn't just say this.

Why try to deceive people? I don't get any pleasure in it. I only get pleasure in seeing people helped out. I tried to see if there was something wrong in my method and I know it isn't a fluke when the same results happen time and time again. Would you please play it the game itself to see? I promise if you do this it will work. It may not add up to you, but I know it will. It may even open your eyes to something you didn't realize was there in the scripts.

Listen, maybe something doesn't show up in the scripts you have provided, because there are other times in the game where huge influence gains of over eight can happened. The first one that come off the top of my head is with Mira when getting influence over her to train her as a Jedi and talking about Nar Shaddaa. You can also do that with the Disciple also.


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Old 02-24-2006, 03:16 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
I'm going to ask politley. Would you just please play a game where you leave on the Ebon Hawk from the Polar Region? Have the Handmaiden join your party and do what I have asked in my summary. You can get 16 points in two of your duels with the Handmaiden. I checked three times in the last 24 hours just to make sure it was correct. I wouldn't just say this.

Why try to deceive people? I don't get any pleasure in it. I only get pleasure in seeing people helped out. I tried to see if there was something wrong in my method and I know it isn't a fluke when the same results happen time and time again. Would you please play it the game itself to see? I promise if you do this it will work. It may not add up to you, but I know it will. It may even open your eyes to something you didn't realize was there in the scripts.

Listen, maybe something doesn't show up in the scripts you have provided, because there are other times in the game where huge influence gains of over eight can happened. The first one that come off the top of my head is with Mira when getting influence over her to train her as a Jedi and talking about Nar Shaddaa. You can also do that with the Disciple also.
I have already asked politely (multiple times) for you to just post some real proof. So far you have selected not to. Why do I have to do all the work here? If you have an alternative method that proves me wrong, I'd love to see it because it's probably going to result in a better guide. You're asking me to take your word over the actual game files, and I'm just not going to do that.

You claim to put a lot of work into verifying your information your end, however you seem to put very little effort into documenting it. You don't have time to devote to documentation, however you do have time to type hundreds and hundreds of words arguing about the subject? Please explain how that works.

You may have received 16 point after a duel for doing the duel and something else, but your guide is showing 16 points for the duel and then 8 points for the something else (for a total of 24). That's just not true, man. I don't know how to break that to you and it's seems obvious that repeating the message is not making any headway.

I have a walkthrough you can reference, I have a guide that you can download, and tonight I spent more than 2 hours putting together a post that spells it all out in small words. I'm not putting any further effort into this discussion. The work I've done will either stand or fall on it's own merit. If it stands, then you'll have to accept that. If it falls, then I'll have to accept that, and then I'll have to get busy revising my stuff.

So call it a win, or do whatever it takes to help you feel better, but I'm not rising to anymore challenges from you on this one. You've taken up enough of my time. I'm not devoting any more to another playthough.
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Old 02-24-2006, 03:43 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
I have already asked politely (multiple times) for you to just post some real proof. So far you have selected not to. Why do I have to do all the work here? If you have an alternative method that proves me wrong, I'd love to see it because it's probably going to result in a better guide. You're asking me to take your word over the actual game files, and I'm just not going to do that.
Honestly, I don't have scripting knowledge. I could never get those scripting tools to work for me. So I don't know what else to do except tell others to find out for themselves. I didn't ask you to look up the scripts and post them. I ask you to play the game itself. TSL is fun, you should enjoy playing while finding this out. And one thing I do know is that I can play the game and know what to do in situations to get the best results for my PC because of the amount of times I've played it and my goal on these boards is to pass off what I have learned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
You claim to put a lot of work into verifying your information your end, however you seem to put very little effort into documenting it. You don't have time to devote to documentation, however you do have time to type hundreds and hundreds of words arguing about the subject? Please explain how that works.
I posted the pictures because visuals seem to be more powerful. It's actual game evidence. Unfortunately when it says influence gained, it doesn't tell you how many points, so that's why I keep saying to check with KSA or with the Remote Tells Influence mod to find out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
You may have received 16 point after a duel for doing the duel and something else, but your guide is showing 16 points for the duel and then 8 points for the something else (for a total of 24).
What part are you talking about?

I'll quickly summarize my guide I posted to help clear this. You get 8 points for your first encounter with Brianna by welcoming her help, which you don't get any Light Side points. It doesn't display it, but you do get influence every time you do this in the game and as shown earlier and you are now at 58. You train with her the first time, and get 16 points. It's possible you get 8 points for the fight, and eight points for answering her question about going to trial. I can't see the script on how that works, I do know for a fact that you get 16 points if you answer her question the way I did in the pic provided, which moves you from 58 to 74 points.

You fight her a second time and just get 8 points, which puts you at 82. She doesn't ask you a question this time. That might be why you only get eight this time. Then I ask her about why she looks different than her sisters and from that result you learn about her mother, if you answer her the way I shown you, you will get 8 points influence, and a Dark Side shift. This puts you at 90. Then talk to Kreia and she tells you about Kae (Brianna's mother).

Then fight her a third time, and she tells you she can teach you no more, but you can offer to teach her things. From that you can convince her to betray her oath and become a Dark Jedi. This would result in 16 points influence if you are below 90, which you won't be if you follow my visuals. So it just bumps you to 100 because you can only get 10 points from that point. Again, could it be possible you get eight points of the duel and eight points for converting her to a Jedi for a total of 16?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
The work I've done will either stand or fall on it's own merit. If it stands, then you'll have to accept that. If it falls, then I'll have to accept that, and then I'll have to get busy revising my stuff.

So call it a win, or do whatever it takes to help you feel better, but I'm not rising to anymore challenges from you on this one. You've taken up enough of my time. I'm not devoting any more to another playthough.
Calling it a win doesn't make me feel better. I really want you to find this out by just playing the game, which I hope will be fun. I didn't want you to look at the scripts and scratch your head trying to figure out how my way would work. I'm being honest here. I really know the way I have provided will work. And playing the game to find out should take less time then running through scripts trying to figure out how it works.

And I'm also going to just say I'm sorry for how I came off and hurting your feelings from the previous posts. That wasn't my goal. My goal was for you to see that I wasn't blowing smoke, that I was being serious. Again, I have checked this three times in the last 24 hours to make sure it works. If it didn't, I would have conceded a long time ago.


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Last edited by Shem; 02-24-2006 at 03:54 AM.
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Old 02-24-2006, 05:02 PM   #32
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chill out both of u!!!!! i only ask for information about this matter, i didn't ask for two members of starwarsknights.com to have challenges!! i just wanted info. on this and nothing more. if not i wouldn't post this


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Old 02-24-2006, 06:42 PM   #33
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i saw ur post and there it said that u have a guide line that u downloaded about how to train her. could u give me the favor of giving me the name of the website so i can download it. to like stop all this fuss


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Old 02-24-2006, 08:56 PM   #34
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Links to both are in my signature.

And drop the attitude...really.
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Old 02-25-2006, 06:22 PM   #35
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@darth traya_321
It's obvious that both Achilles and Shem have spent a lot of time on influence and the Handmaiden (as you can see above), and sometimes people who've spent a great deal of time on any kind of project can become rather passionate about their work.

I hope this info was as useful for you as it was for me, and I hope you'll stay on the forum and enjoy the many other good things it has to offer, too.


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Old 02-26-2006, 08:47 AM   #36
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@ Shem, I did follow what you posted in post number 14 and it does work, but after Handmaiden joined I had 66 points just from the first holo recording dialog(I made LS dialog choices). This is before talking to her at all. I then cheated and gave my char 2,000,000 xp points and auto leveled to 50, after completing the 3 sparing matches I had 98 points of influence with her, I didn't talk to her about anything else.

Now when I chose DS dialog options in the holo recording scene I checked her influence and it was at 32 after sparing with her and talking to her and Kreia about her mother I only had 82 points of Influence, so at this point I would need to get 8 more points from some place else, meaning I would have to take her off the ship. So if I had only been nasty to her once in the Holo recording scene I would have only lost 8 points and I could have trained her as a darkjedi.
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Old 02-27-2006, 12:10 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T7nowhere
Now when I chose DS dialog options in the holo recording scene I checked her influence and it was at 32 after sparing with her and talking to her and Kreia about her mother I only had 82 points of Influence
Did you get influence with her when you talked to her about why she looks different than her sisters? You can talk to her and not get influence at all, but if you follow my pics I posted on what to say line by line, you get a Dark Side shift, and influence gained.

http://img400.imageshack.us/img400/6748/handm4323be.jpg


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Old 02-27-2006, 01:02 PM   #38
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Did you get that right after a sparring match? If so the influence gain was for the duel, not for the dialog. As I have pointed out before, there are no influence shifts in that conversation. You can reference post 28 for verification if you'd like.
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Old 02-27-2006, 03:19 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Did you get that right after a sparring match? If so the influence gain was for the duel, not for the dialog. As I have pointed out before, there are no influence shifts in that conversation.
My previous post was about the conversation where you can ask the Handmaiden why she looks different from her sisters where you can get an influence gain and Dark Side points. The pics below show you step by step how to achieve it.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ss/HandD41.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ss/HandD42.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ss/HandD43.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ss/HandD44.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ss/HandD45.jpg

http://img400.imageshack.us/img400/6748/handm4323be.jpg


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Old 02-27-2006, 03:40 PM   #40
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T7nowhere how did you auto level to 50. can u tell me pleazzzzzzzz


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