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Old 02-25-2006, 08:47 PM   #1
Burrie
 
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[SPOILERS] Would you have been satisfied with the cut ending?

For completeness sake, here's a few links to an ending that the developers had apparantly originally planned for Sith Lords...

Challening Darth Traya
Atton tortured by Sion
Atton dies and professes his love to the Exile
Atton, warped to the darkside, attacks Disciple -
Visas fighting the Handmaiden(s)
Handmaiden or Visas says goodbye to the exile
Atton leaves with the exile
G0T0 and the Remote face off on Malachor V... HK-47 intercedes

Personally, I have to say that, from what I've seen, Obsidian had one helluva memorable ending planned for a game. First you have a good ol' standard big epic fight on board the Ravager, and then to end the storyline, various personal battles, aka the end of Revenge of the Sith.

First of all, and one of the main things that I like, it seems that everyone, EVERYONE, in the party would have been involved one way or the other at the ending, instead of just a couple of characters like on the Star Forge in KotOR 1. Canderous would've restored the Mandalorians at Telos. HK-47, G0-T0 and the Remote would have had their own little show-down. I suppose Mira might still encounter Hanharr, although I've found that scene to be random. After all, she killed the Wook before, why do it again? Moving on, the influence system would've played a mayor factor for the likes of the Handmaiden or Atton's destiny. And of course, there could've been an awesome scene where the party would face off with Kreia, and fail miserably. And in the center of it all is the Exile, trying to complete his/her destiny.

The only one whom would've been left out are Bao-Dur and T3. Truth be told, I reckon that Bao-Dur would have been killed during the Ebon Hawk's entrance of Malachor V, although there is no strict evidence. T3 might've been off to fix the Hawk, I suppose.

Furthermore, there are some scenes in there that I would've just loved to see, Kreia's showdown with the party most of all. That scene just reeks of Kreia going bad-ass, building up the final battle you have with her. The only real problem I see is some of the dialogue, especially if some of the party members hadn't been trained as a Jedi. However, as I did some checking with the dialogue viewer from the KOTOR Tool, I did detect some earlier planning on having variants when certain characters weren't there. And the way it was set up, it would've worked. If certain characters weren't there(either gone evil, dead(slain by a betrayer), or wasn't trained), their part in the script would be ignored.

In fact, come to think of it, quite a few scenes in there are pure Kreia-material. (for the record, I found Kreia to be one of the most fascinating characters in the game, quite a memorable villain) Seeing her turn party members against party members just fits her character.

Let me tell you this... in my first game, where I was playing with a female Exile, Atton would have turned against the Disciple. As far as I know, the Exile had more influence with the Disciple than with Atton(the former did meet the Exile on the Hawk after all the fun happening on Dantooine). Now, if Atton had turned against the party, it would've been a betrayal on the same scale as Anakin Skywalker. I mean, it was Atton, whom had been there from the beginning. He had been a faithful ally throughout the adventure. And even though I didn't quite agree with some of his statements, I still found him to be a friendly, redeemable chap. To have Kreia use his feelings against the party, turn him into a villain, and actually complete something that had been setup throughout the game, and I hadn't seen coming...

Well, summed up, this picture brings me shivers.

Aye, I suppose the ending would have been rather dark and not quite pleasant. I say, bring it on. One of my personal complaints with KotOR had been that, if played on the Light Side, none of the characters in the party died or had any severe trauma, although I suppose it fits with the adventurous feeling that KotOR has. But Sith Lords really seemed to have been building up to something great personal battle where sacrifices would've been made... and instead we got a confusing hack and slash. The originally planned ending makes use of everything that had been setup throughout the game, and ends most of it on a satisfying, if possibly depressive, note.

Plus, the ending isn't all that bad, as there is still a glimmer of hope. The rebuilding of the Jedi have begun. The Mandalorians have been rebuilt. The Republic stands somewhat strong again. Basically, the defense against the "True Sith" seems to have been setup. And the Exile is off to personally chase after Revan, setting up KotOR 3 perfectly. At least, on the Light Side, I suppose the Dark Side's situation may be a bit more... dangerous.

The way I see it, this would've been very much like the ending of Empire Strikes Back or Attack of the Clones. A dark situation has been set up. The heroes are off to fight in a difficult battle. Basically, the story is ready to be closed off by a thrilling third episode that completes the trilogy.

Some would say that the Sith Lords already is pretty much like it. I personally don't think so. The way I see it, Sith Lords ending is pretty much like if Empire Strikes Back had ended after Vader's revelation, Luke falling down, hanging on the pole and is recued by the Falcon(without showing Leia & co escaping). Iris round to credits as the Falcon escapes, with TIE Fighters in pursuit.

Is that how ESB could've properly concluded? I would heartily disagree.

But whenever I look at what they had originally planned, all what I can say is : That's how I would've liked to see KotOR 2 end. The fact that it was all cut makes the Sith Lords one of the most tragic games I've ever played, in my opinion.
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Old 02-26-2006, 04:52 AM   #2
Diego Varen
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I heard that Bao-Dur would have sacrificed himself on the Droid Planet. I had already seen the scripts on the Restoration Project site. I would have been a lot happier with the ending. But then Obsidian had to rush it to get it out for Christmas.

Some advice for KOTORIII (If they're making it). We want a perfect game that might come out later, but at least it would be good. It doesn't matter about the release date. If it is rushed, then it won't be as good as taking your time and making it good.
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Old 02-26-2006, 07:37 AM   #3
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Hey Burrie, do you know of this?:

http://www.team-gizka.org/

Just in case you haven't heard of it.

'tis gonna be friggin' awesome!


"Someone's gotta get tough,
or someone else is gonna cry"
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Old 02-26-2006, 08:03 AM   #4
stoffe
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I fully agree that the ending of TSL could be a bit more fulfilling. (which is not to say that the current ending is all that bad. I have certainly seen worse.) However, the "planned" ending, as it has been pieced together from leftover scraps, doesn't strike me personally as a much better way of ending the game. While leaving less to the imagination of the player it feels awfully depressing and anticlimactic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burrie
The influence system would've played a mayor factor for the likes of the Handmaiden or Atton's destiny. And of course,
I think the influence system in the game as it is would be too blunt and random a factor to make it have such a large, irreversible effect on gameplay. I would probably have lost a lot of interest in the game if, in my first playthrough, half the party decided to leave in anger early in the game, permanently, just because I didn't pick the "right" dialog option in the right sequence.

And it would have made some characters, like the Handmaiden, feel fairly psychotic. "Booo hoo, the Exile has talked more to Visas than me the last hour, time to turn my back on everything I am and go on a murderous rampage!" Not a very believable character trait, in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burrie
there could've been an awesome scene where the party would face off with Kreia, and fail miserably.
This is where suspension of disbelief would get in trouble for me. The only way that the whole party could take on Kreia and get swatted like flies, while the Exile is capable of fighting her and winning, would be if Kreia deliberately let the Exile win. Which goes against her whole philosophy, and the very reason she lured you to Malachor to begin with. She wants the Exile to become stronger than her, and the confrontation was the final obstacle on that path. To let the Exile win would make the battle meaningless.

Your party members are no pushovers at that point. While Kreia might believably have been able to beat them one on one, swatting them all like flies without a real fight at the same time just seems ridiculous, in my opinion. And I strongly dislike when games assumes control of characters you've just spent +40 hours to build up and play as, and get them killed in silly ways that you have no control over. You've gone on Exile-free missions before with party members, so why not let the player control them in that fight, rather than let some cutscene do it?

Besides, I think the whole "Fortress of Regrets" type ending where the party ends up getting split up from eachother for no reason is just annoying. Why let the player spend an entire game building a party that complements eachother only to snatch it all away and force you into solo mode when the final struggle begins? Why would they wander off on their own to begin with, rather than meet up at the Hawk after it crashed, and proceed as a group?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Burrie
The only one whom would've been left out are Bao-Dur and T3. Truth be told, I reckon that Bao-Dur would have been killed during the Ebon Hawk's entrance of Malachor V, although there is no strict evidence. T3 might've been off to fix the Hawk, I suppose.
For the lightside ending, someone would have had to remain behind and repair the ship, seeing as it crashes down into that chasm, only to reappear in the core to snatch the Exile out of trouble at the right moment. I assumed that was what Bao-Dur and T3 were busy with.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Burrie
for the record, I found Kreia to be one of the most fascinating characters in the game, quite a memorable villain) Seeing her turn party members against party members just fits her character.
I agree about Kreia. But if there has to be betrayals within the ranks of the party I would prefer it if happened for solid story reasons (e.g. Yoshimo in Baldurs Gate II) rather than strictly due to the flimsy Influence system. If it could be made believable and make sense I wouldn't be so much against manipulated betrayals (though I of course prefer party members you can rely on).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Burrie
In my first game, where I was playing with a female Exile, Atton would have turned against the Disciple. As far as I know, the Exile had more influence with the Disciple than with Atton(the former did meet the Exile on the Hawk after all the fun happening on Dantooine). Now, if Atton had turned against the party, it would've been a betrayal on the same scale as Anakin Skywalker.
The problem with this, as I see it, is that it requires metagaming and out of character knowledge to get the desired outcome of the game with a party that's held together. Atton is fairly slow to gain influence with, while you can pretty much gain max influence with the Disciple before he even joins the party by exploring all dialog options when you meet him in the Enclave library.

You, as the player (not you as the Exile) would need to know beforehand that if you go to Dantooine first, you can't talk too much with this guy you just met and barely know who it is, or Atton will have a fit and return to his murderous psychopath ways. The game would leave little clues that this would happen until it was too late and you can do nothing to repair the damage.

Now, if the characters became moody for a while, allowing you to talk to them and (with decent charisma or Persuasion) find out what's wrong and clear up the problems they have, I would be more okay with it. If they'd only snap and go antagonist if you ignored their moodiness for a while (or have too poor charisma/persuade to make them open up about it), then it would be a bit less railroading and something the player had a chance to affect.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Burrie
Aye, I suppose the ending would have been rather dark and not quite pleasant. I say, bring it on.
(snip)
The originally planned ending makes use of everything that had been setup throughout the game, and ends most of it on a satisfying, if possibly depressive, note.
I prefer happy endings, otherwise it feels like the game ends with a huge anticlimax, leaving an empty, "I just played all that time for THIS?" feeling inside you. Games with unhappy endings tend to have a fairly low replay value to me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Burrie
And the Exile is off to personally chase after Revan, setting up KotOR 3 perfectly. At least, on the Light Side, I suppose the Dark Side's situation may be a bit more... dangerous.
I believe you were presented with the choice of the Exile doing so, not being railroaded into doing it. At least I hope so. Because I can see no good reason why my lightside, Halo-wearing Exile would want to abandon the Republic and Jedi Order in their time of need and blindly rush off on some fool's errand into the unknown. You don't know why Revan rushed off as she did and you certainly don't know if she'll be happy to see you. Going to great lengths to ensure nobody would follow suggests otherwise. Stay behind and rebuild the Republic and Order, would be the preference of my Exile.

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Old 02-26-2006, 11:08 AM   #5
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I think the influence system in the game as it is would be too blunt and random a factor to make it have such a large, irreversible effect on gameplay. I would probably have lost a lot of interest in the game if, in my first playthrough, half the party decided to leave in anger early in the game, permanently, just because I didn't pick the "right" dialog option in the right sequence.

And it would have made some characters, like the Handmaiden, feel fairly psychotic. "Booo hoo, the Exile has talked more to Visas than me the last hour, time to turn my back on everything I am and go on a murderous rampage!" Not a very believable character trait, in my opinion.
Difference of opinions, I suppose. Me, I generally think the idea of the Influence is a solid concept, if perhaps not properly used in KotOR 2. The fact that it does, in fact, close off the chance to hear solid plot information is a very bad thing, in my opinion. I can understand that they may not give you everything you want to know about them, but don't hold out on important plot-related information.

A good example, I think, would be Carth's dillema with Saul. If you don't talk with him, you'll miss a large part of his background. But when you're captured by the Leviathan, he's at least so kind to give the players a quick summary as to what his link with Saul is. That's the sort of thing I would've liked to see.

Hummm, trailed off there for a moment, pardon. Well, at the very least, the party doesn't leave off halfway through the game due to the influence system, and that's a good thing. What I'm more aiming at is that the Influence would've come into play at the end. If you had treated a character horribly or worked in a way he completly disagrees with... I'd prefer that he would turn against the player, instead of remaining loyal towards him.

I'm afraid I can't comment on the Handmaiden's situation. I've only played the game once, tried ot a couple of times later with a mix of characters, but never really got far with a male Exile. For Atton, however, I really think that it would've worked. After all, Kreia has been in control for him for a large part of the storyline. He has a very shady past. He desperatley seems to long for the female Exile, and I see him turning towards the Dark Side if he can't have her. Truth be told, I don't see him falling towards the Dark Side just because the Exile seems to be more chumy with the Disciple, it would pretty much be the leverage. (although gameplay related, it pretty much is)

For the handmaiden, I had been under the impression that the handmaidens, as a whole, were somewhat being controlled by Kreia. Doesn't she call upon a cadre of them after she has(quite anti-climatically, I might add) killed the Jedi Masters? Is there some sort of interaction between Kreia and the Handmaiden onboard the Ebon Hawk?

Plus, there is that whole fact of Malachor magically turning Jedi into Dark Jedi. (another plot point that I would've liked have been developed further)

Quote:
This is where suspension of disbelief would get in trouble for me. The only way that the whole party could take on Kreia and get swatted like flies, while the Exile is capable of fighting her and winning, would be if Kreia deliberately let the Exile win. Which goes against her whole philosophy, and the very reason she lured you to Malachor to begin with. She wants the Exile to become stronger than her, and the confrontation was the final obstacle on that path. To let the Exile win would make the battle meaningless.

Your party members are no pushovers at that point. While Kreia might believably have been able to beat them one on one, swatting them all like flies without a real fight at the same time just seems ridiculous, in my opinion. And I strongly dislike when games assumes control of characters you've just spent +40 hours to build up and play as, and get them killed in silly ways that you have no control over. You've gone on Exile-free missions before with party members, so why not let the player control them in that fight, rather than let some cutscene do it?

Besides, I think the whole "Fortress of Regrets" type ending where the party ends up getting split up from eachother for no reason is just annoying. Why let the player spend an entire game building a party that complements eachother only to snatch it all away and force you into solo mode when the final struggle begins? Why would they wander off on their own to begin with, rather than meet up at the Hawk after it crashed, and proceed as a group?
Truth be told, I believe that the Exile is easily far more powerful than the rest of the party, especially in the later levels, and is practically the only one whom could take on Kreia one-on-one. In my game, the Exile practically took on armies on her own, while having to take care of the party members at times. I overall took them along for the neat character interaction that they bring.

Kreia is a pretty difficult beast to slay as it is, and I really can't imagine any of the party members being able to take her down. Heck, me Exile had a bloody difficult time with her. The only way that I could beat her when she summoned the three lightsabers(neat concept) was with a little AI bug. Of course, I'm not quite good at getting a strong build in any RPG, so that might've simply been my experience

As for build-up party members turning quite useless during the last part, I suppose there's another difference in opinions. I m'self pretty much don't mind if certain things happen for plot-related reasons. For example, in KOTOR, my first Revan had pretty much been built up to function properly with Bastila, then *boom* she gets captured. Problems galore, but 'oi... it changed the situation, forced me to slightly adapt, but storywise, I liked the twist. To have that happening on Malachor would've worked nicely as a build-up for the finale with Kreia.

Why the group would not meet up... I generally thought that everyone would've basically been dropped on a different spot and would be unable to reach the Hawk for whatever reason(unable to climb back, a hazard in the way, that sorta thing), with each character wandering off to reach the temple, encountering each other on the way. A bit like the quite useless(IMO) scene with Mira on Malachor.

As for the Fortress of Regrets(yay, PS:T reference, awesome game that), I liked that. I tend to like it when characters also face dillemas on their own, instead of being with the main character all the time.

Quote:
I agree about Kreia. But if there has to be betrayals within the ranks of the party I would prefer it if happened for solid story reasons (e.g. Yoshimo in Baldurs Gate II) rather than strictly due to the flimsy Influence system. If it could be made believable and make sense I wouldn't be so much against manipulated betrayals (though I of course prefer party members you can rely on).
Just curious, what are your thoughts about Atton betraying the party? As far as I know, either he or the handmaiden would betray the group.

Quote:
I prefer happy endings, otherwise it feels like the game ends with a huge anticlimax, leaving an empty, "I just played all that time for THIS?" feeling inside you. Games with unhappy endings tend to have a fairly low replay value to me.
Difference of opinions, I suppose. Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts about PS:T's ending?

Plus, the KotOR 2 ending doesn't exactly seem to have a "played it all for this", in my opinion. After all, an evil has been stopped, some sacrifices were made, and things appear to have been set up for a big finale. Something of a cliffhanger. Again, quite like AOTC and ESB.

And I suppose I would've had less of a problem with KotOR 2's ending if a third episode had been officially announced by now. But from what I've seen, the storyline of KotOR won't be finished for quite some time, and they've left us hanging.

If KotOR2's cut ending had been there, and KotOR 3 hadn't been announced by now... I have to admit that I probably would've been peeved by the ending by now.

(kinda interesting how all the sequels that were released in that year ended with cliffhangers... Half-Life 2, Prince of Persia 2, Halo 2, KotOR 2)

Quote:
I believe you were presented with the choice of the Exile doing so, not being railroaded into doing it. At least I hope so. Because I can see no good reason why my lightside, Halo-wearing Exile would want to abandon the Republic and Jedi Order in their time of need and blindly rush off on some fool's errand into the unknown. You don't know why Revan rushed off as she did and you certainly don't know if she'll be happy to see you. Going to great lengths to ensure nobody would follow suggests otherwise. Stay behind and rebuild the Republic and Order, would be the preference of my Exile.
Aye, that's how it is pretty much now as it is, yes? Kreia does present you with a few options on how to continue. I suppose my Exile would've rushed off to find Revan, although she certainly would've asked Visas to build up the order, as the original ending seems to have suggested.

Plus, choice is a good thing.

Regarding the Exile, that's something that Sith Lords did a-okay, I think. You did get quite a few options on how to define the Exile's past, his actions, and his reasons at times. Plus, I also liked that the Exile doesn't seem to have amnesia, but that you'd uncover his/her background through his dialogue options and the cave on Korriban. Neat gimmick that.
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Old 02-26-2006, 02:04 PM   #6
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Using the Miles Sound Tools I found one line I've never seen anyone mention before from the cut stuff. Then again due to the amount of threads and sites discussing it, I'm sure someone has mentioned it before.

The line that was (possibly) removed was from when Exile asked Kreia what was she and Kreia gives you her past history. (The movie we see of her with Sion and the other one.)

Last line removed: "I did not wish to kill so they cast me down, striped me of my power. Exiled me."

We don't see/hear that as far as I know. I know I never heard it before but anyone know if it was part of the game and can be accessed still?

Streamvoice > 907 > KREIAEND > 907KREIAEND015.wav
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Old 02-26-2006, 04:13 PM   #7
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I'm pretty sure that it is in the game.

It's such a shame that the game was forced to be released before they could use the cut ending and other stuff, and after looking at that, it would have been fantastic for the makers of KOTOR III to continue from.

Such a tragic shame really...


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Old 02-26-2006, 05:22 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
I prefer happy endings, otherwise it feels like the game ends with a huge anticlimax, leaving an empty, "I just played all that time for THIS?" feeling inside you. Games with unhappy endings tend to have a fairly low replay value to me.
Ah yes - but did you feel that way when you finished watching The Empire Strikes Back?
Personally, I believe TSL would have had a similar effect, and I feel this game is set up to play the role of the "dark" chapter, before everything is truly resolved. I feel we need that - the "conclusion" of this chapter to act as the cliffhanger for the remaining instalment.

But then again - I am biased as I generally prefer a storyline with a darker tone, atmosphere and message behind it.

On a side note - which of the films would you say is your favourite?


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or someone else is gonna cry"
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Old 02-26-2006, 06:40 PM   #9
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Ah yes - but did you feel that way when you finished watching The Empire Strikes Back?
Personally, I believe TSL would have had a similar effect, and I feel this game is set up to play the role of the "dark" chapter, before everything is truly resolved.
The difference is how it ends in a cliffhanger, IMHO. Sure, the protagonists have just suffered a loss. But it is one that can be recovered from. None of them are dead, and none of them have become bitter enemies for no believable reason.

Would you feel that The Empire Strikes Back had ended in a satisfying way if it ended with Leia learning who Vader was and decide to join him instead, betraying the Rebellion? And Han Solo turning to the Dark Side and try to kill Luke out of jealousy over Leia? And Chewie getting killed and turned into a pelt carpet by some xenophobic Trandoshan bounty hunter hating him?

ESB ends in a dark time, but with a promise of salvation on the horizon, and the spark of hope still burning. The proposed TSL ending definitely does not provide that promise of hope and meaning, in my opinion, it would just leave a sour taste in my mouth. That it doesn't matter what you do in the game, it will all end in misery anyway. You may succeed in stopping the Sith, but at a very high cost.

It would be like Luke returning from the Death Star encounter in Return of the Jedi only to learn that Leia, Chewie and Han Solo got killed during their assault on the forrest moon. Victory, but with a very sour taste.

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Originally Posted by The Distorted
On a side note - which of the films would you say is your favourite?
Overall and story-wise Empire Strikes Back, though from a pure Action perspective Revenge of the Sith ranks top. It has too many cringe-worthy scenes to make it compete, and I prefer movies where the main character is even remotely likable.

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Old 02-26-2006, 07:50 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burrie
Difference of opinions, I suppose. Me, I generally think the idea of the Influence is a solid concept, if perhaps not properly used in KotOR 2. The fact that it does, in fact, close off the chance to hear solid plot information is a very bad thing, in my opinion. I can understand that they may not give you everything you want to know about them, but don't hold out on important plot-related information.
The concept of influence is good, but the way it was implemented felt very artificial and can lead to situations that feel very unnatural.

Speaking of Planescape:Torment I kind of prefer the take on "influence" they did there, where your treatment of your party members have more subtle effects overall, and you have to be intentionally antagonistic to them to paint yourself into a corner in them with one go.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Burrie
Hummm, trailed off there for a moment, pardon. Well, at the very least, the party doesn't leave off halfway through the game due to the influence system, and that's a good thing.
As I understand it this is how it would have worked when the influence gap between Visas vs. Handmaiden, or Atton vs. Disciple, had grown too large. Kreia would convince them to betray you, and they'd have permanently left the party there and then, heading for Malachor. A bit like she did with Hanharr if you get Mira as a party member.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Burrie
What I'm more aiming at is that the Influence would've come into play at the end. If you had treated a character horribly or worked in a way he completly disagrees with... I'd prefer that he would turn against the player, instead of remaining loyal towards him.
I am not opposed to constantly abusing party members having consequences, that would feel rather natural. If you treat them like crap they obviously shouldn't put up with you in the long run unless they have a very compelling reason to stick around (like Kreia does). What I don't like with the influence system as it is, is that you don't really need to be abusive towards your party members for them to go crazy.

Handmaiden vs. Visas: It's not unnatural to get Visas to join the group soon after arriving on the first planet after Telos. If you pick the Lightside options when dealing with her when you first meet, and then go talk to her after the cutscene has ended and explore all dialog options available (to find out who this mysterious person who just tried to kill you are), that's quite sufficient to trigger the "Handmaiden gets incredibly jealous and gets manipulated by Kreia" scene that ultimately would lead to her Darkside showdown with Visas on Malachor in the scrapped ending.

You can be kind to Handmaiden when she joins and never show any disrespect towards her. If you don't actively go out of your way to gain lots of influence with her before Visas shows up, you are screwed.

So, the problem with the influence system is that it doesn't take what actions you have done to earn influence gain/loss, and put them into perspective, resulting in very unnatural reactions. Why would the Handmaiden go crazy just because you talk to Visas for an hour and happen to influence her a lot during conversation? Makes no sense.

The problem in this particular case is that both people that can be a source of conflict (Visas and Disciple) are incredibly easy to gain loads of influence with immediately just by talking to them, while their "opponent" takes a bit more work than they do. And you wouldn't need to have poor influence with Atton or Handmaiden to make them go nuts, they'd just need 30 less influence (on a 0-100 scale, starting out at 50, gaining/losing influence in hops of 8) than Disciple or Visas to become jealous and leave irrevocably.

This is not something that you, as a non-walkthrough-reading player could possibly anticipate the first time you play the game. You require either luck or metagaming knowledge of which order you need to speak to people in order to keep your party working smoothly. This is what I dislike.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Burrie
I'm afraid I can't comment on the Handmaiden's situation. I've only played the game once, tried ot a couple of times later with a mix of characters, but never really got far with a male Exile.
It's similar to the situation with Atton/Disciple if I remember correctly. If Visas at any time have 30+ influence more than Handmaiden, it would trigger a pair of cutscenes where Kreia manipulates her into thinking the Exile has been seduced by Visas and will be lead into darkness or some such. After which the Handmaiden, festering with jealousy, would leave the party, only to show up on Malachor by the end and try to confront and kill Visas.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Burrie
For Atton, however, I really think that it would've worked. After all, Kreia has been in control for him for a large part of the storyline. He has a very shady past. He desperatley seems to long for the female Exile, and I see him turning towards the Dark Side if he can't have her.
Sure Kreia is a master manipulator, but considering that both Atton and Handmaiden hates her with a passion I find it somewhat hard to believe that she could manipulate them that easily into dropping their loyalty (or agenda if you wish) and turn against the Exile. Unless she mind-controls them, but there's nothing hinting at that.

Sure, the jealousy may already be there, but if it is egged on by someone they despise and know is a manipulative witch, why would they listen to her?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Burrie
For the handmaiden, I had been under the impression that the handmaidens, as a whole, were somewhat being controlled by Kreia. Doesn't she call upon a cadre of them after she has(quite anti-climatically, I might add) killed the Jedi Masters? Is there some sort of interaction between Kreia and the Handmaiden onboard the Ebon Hawk?
I don't think that's the case, the Handmaidens are Atris' lapdogs. They show up at the end of the "trial" in the enclave ruins to apprehend Kreia and bring her to Atris for judgement. They are not her minions. (As an aside, if you have the Handmaiden in your party they don't show up at all, HM will snatch Kreia herself and bring her to Atris instead.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Burrie
Truth be told, I believe that the Exile is easily far more powerful than the rest of the party, especially in the later levels, and is practically the only one whom could take on Kreia one-on-one.
I suppose the power level of your party members can vary a lot depending on how far you level up, how you level them and what equipment they get. Still, they as a group should be able to take Kreia together if the Exile should have any chance against Kreia on her own, IMHO.

I am somewhat sceptical that Handmaiden/Disciple, Visas, Atton and Mira (together as a group) would be crushed by the Exile in a fight, provided that they are either all player-controlled or all AI controlled, and all are optimally equipped with the best stuff suited for them that can be found during the game. But perhaps I'm just not enough of a power gamer to manage to build my Exile optimally into an engine of destruction.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Burrie
Why the group would not meet up... I generally thought that everyone would've basically been dropped on a different spot and would be unable to reach the Hawk for whatever reason(unable to climb back, a hazard in the way, that sorta thing)
I don't know... Jumping/falling from a ship that falls through the atmosphere of a planet would seem fairly lethal, I think. And as far as can be seen from the movie cutscene, the Ebon Hawk doesn't look like its hull had been ruptured before it crashed into the rocks where it came to a stop. And it seems a bit odd that party members would start wandering off on their own while their party mates lay unconscious in the ship. But maybe I'm over-analyzing things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Burrie
As for the Fortress of Regrets(yay, PS:T reference, awesome game that), I liked that. I tend to like it when characters also face dillemas on their own, instead of being with the main character all the time.
While it may add to the story, I dislike when characters you normally control suddenly are controlled by the computer according to some railroading script, forcing them to act in a very stupid manner and getting them killed in ways they'd never act if you could control them.

A bit like what happens at the end of Planescape:Torment. Fall-from-Grace was the only party member to even remotely put up a fight against TTO and the Shadows.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Burrie
Just curious, what are your thoughts about Atton betraying the party? As far as I know, either he or the handmaiden would betray the group.
It would be very anticlimactic and disappointing (if predictable), in my opinion. Here you have a character with a very dark past who seems to finally come to terms with his inner demons and desire redemption for past deeds. To have him freak out and return to his old ways (which he left for reasons that had nothing to do with the Exile to begin with) over misplaced jealousy would be very disappointing. Redemption against all odds is more fun than a predictable fall from new-found grace.

(Thus I prefer the Lightside path in KotOR1 as well. Revan falling back to the Dark Side just feels like a disappointing anticlimax. A waste of potential. )


Quote:
Originally Posted by Burrie
Difference of opinions, I suppose. Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts about PS:T's ending?
I loved the rest of the game, it's one of the best RPGs I have ever played. But the ending is the reason why I haven't bee able to bring myself to play the game more than two times (thus far). Very anticlimactic ending that leaves you with the impression that everything you have done so far lead to nothing. The Nameless One can be so good throughout the game that it makes a Solar look like a devil by comparison, but he is still damned in the end. Very disappointing ending that leaves an empty feeling behind, even if it was fitting for the general mood of the game.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Burrie
Plus, the KotOR 2 ending doesn't exactly seem to have a "played it all for this", in my opinion. After all, an evil has been stopped, some sacrifices were made, and things appear to have been set up for a big finale. Something of a cliffhanger. Again, quite like AOTC and ESB.
While I can see your point, personally I disagree with the comparison between the (cut) TSL-ending and the (uncut) ESB-ending. See the post above this one if you wish to know my reasoning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burrie
And I suppose I would've had less of a problem with KotOR 2's ending if a third episode had been officially announced by now. But from what I've seen, the storyline of KotOR won't be finished for quite some time, and they've left us hanging.
(snip)
kinda interesting how all the sequels that were released in that year ended with cliffhangers... Half-Life 2, Prince of Persia 2, Halo 2, KotOR 2
Indeed. I doubt most Star Wars fans would feel very happy about it if The Empire Strikes Back was the last movie and the franchise was abandoned after that movie was finished.

As for cliffhangers, they probably do it in games for the same reason as the movies do. Get the audience hooked to make sure they pay their hard-earned money to get the sequel when/if it is released. That, or they simply like to torment their fans with uncertainty.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Burrie
Aye, that's how it is pretty much now as it is, yes? Kreia does present you with a few options on how to continue. I suppose my Exile would've rushed off to find Revan, although she certainly would've asked Visas to build up the order, as the original ending seems to have suggested.
As I see it, the Exile is the last Jedi alive who has been trained in the Order from the ground up, and has any experience teaching others the way of the force. As such she would have a key role in rebuilding the Jedi Order from its near-eradication. Sending her off into the unknown leaving the Order to its own fate would feel a bit foolish.

Visas is the Exile's near-equal when it comes to command of the Force, but she's never had any Jedi training. She's a reformed/redeemed Sith, trained by Darth Nihilus who I doubt would teach her much of the Jedi philosophy. While she certainly could be incorporated into a rebuilding Jedi Order it would feel a bit strange the leave the whole rebuilding effort into her hands.

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Old 02-26-2006, 08:29 PM   #11
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I feel ambivalent about the cut content. I like the fact that in LS endings you can save all your friends. I'm not to thrilled about the idea of seeing Atton and the rest of the party die trying to kill Traya. I like Atton and the other characters--I prefer not to get them all the way through the game only to see all of them croak at the end, especially if Exile and Atton have sort of maybe indicated they might like each other in a vague sort of way. I can see them all dying in a DS ending, but not LS. The other thing I don't like is that they try to attack Traya individually because that's unrealistic--why would you attack individually instead of as an entire party? 1 on 1 against a stronger opponent is bad odds, but 4 or 5 on 1 has a much greater chance of success.
As for the ending cut content, I've no problem with negativity for a DS ending, after all, you're the bad guy and if everyone dies, it's no big deal for a Sith Lord. I already thought the ending was barely satisfactory as a LSer, but if it gets as negative as these scenes suggest for a LS ending then I might actually skip installing some of the ending cut content. Malachor's depressing enough without seeing all my friends die on top of it.


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Old 02-27-2006, 09:12 AM   #12
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I guess the cut ending would be fine although I think it's a bit TOO much for one ending. But I don't like how Atton dies...


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Old 02-27-2006, 04:39 PM   #13
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I wish I can play as Atton and skins that annoying Disciple dude alive... it would be such a pleasure skinning him hearing him scream like a little girl.
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Old 02-27-2006, 06:09 PM   #14
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Such dark thoughts. Now that I've read the scripts, I would like to see the cut content restored so I can see it visually. I though TSL was supposed more dark like ESB so I'm just curious.

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Old 02-27-2006, 10:05 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
Handmaiden vs. Visas: It's not unnatural to get Visas to join the group soon after arriving on the first planet after Telos. If you pick the Lightside options when dealing with her when you first meet, and then go talk to her after the cutscene has ended and explore all dialog options available (to find out who this mysterious person who just tried to kill you are), that's quite sufficient to trigger the "Handmaiden gets incredibly jealous and gets manipulated by Kreia" scene that ultimately would lead to her Darkside showdown with Visas on Malachor in the scrapped ending.
I didn't think it was a "darkside" showdown as such (I don't think she is meant to go over to the darkside), cos Handmaiden actually justifies her decision by claiming that Visas (being a dark jedi/sith) has corrupted the Exile, and her influence/taint needs to be relieved. I know of course that it's also largely because of her feelings for the Exile (and the jealousy she now feels) but I think she feels such jealousy specifically because it's Visas (whom she never trusted), and truly believes that killing her would be a lesser evil than letting her remain alive and continue to have any contact with the Exile. She also seems to believe that Visas has successfully changed the Exile (for the worse), and thus what she sees as her extreme influence over the Exile, changed him from the man that she loved, so yes - revenge is also a part of it, because she believes the Exile is beyond her reach now, and given that she has disobeyed Atris' too, what does she have left, but this self-righteous act of vengeance and "cleansing" (of her "corrupt" influence)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
It's similar to the situation with Atton/Disciple if I remember correctly. If Visas at any time have 30+ influence more than Handmaiden, it would trigger a pair of cutscenes where Kreia manipulates her into thinking the Exile has been seduced by Visas and will be lead into darkness or some such. After which the Handmaiden, festering with jealousy, would leave the party, only to show up on Malachor by the end and try to confront and kill Visas.
I didn't know of that detail...interesting...I agree, I think that's a bit overboard making them leave your party too, and it could potentially happen very early too. Yeah, I wouldn't like that. It should be like it already actually is in that respect: i.e. in the Handmaiden's case, she would just shun your character's attempts to talk with her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
Sure Kreia is a master manipulator, but considering that both Atton and Handmaiden hates her with a passion I find it somewhat hard to believe that she could manipulate them that easily into dropping their loyalty (or agenda if you wish) and turn against the Exile. Unless she mind-controls them, but there's nothing hinting at that.

Sure, the jealousy may already be there, but if it is egged on by someone they despise and know is a manipulative witch, why would they listen to her?
I'm not sure that Atton could be described as despising her, personally. He just wants his freedom back, and consequently doesn't take too kindly to the control she weilds over him. I don't think it's so much a personal thing to him, but more about the actual situation that he despises being put into - her hold over his potential realtionship with the Exile.
He doesn't take too much encouraging either, and is also made aware of (which is what the hold Kreia has over him, is) the fact that he is under her control. He directly acknowledges that also, as in the dialogues for that scene, when the Disciple says that Kreia is manipulating him, he just says something akin to: "Yeah well, everyone manipulates everyone else, kid. And as far as I see it, if she is using me to kill you, then I don't care, as I want that too anyway". Kreia still maintains her hold over him at this point.

Admittedly, I find it quite alot harder to justify the Handmaiden's belief in Kreia's words, but I guess it could be assumed that it's because she so badly wants to believe in that, in order to justify killing Visas (even though it goes strongly against her nature) and thus Kreia gave her the excuse of another voice (other than her own) that echoes outloud the thoughts that had been going round her head. Just look at how she reacted (without thinking) when she believed the Exile had been killed by Kreia at the rebuilt enclave.
Admittedly though, this act reeks of a "darkside act" - giving into her passion/anger/hatred - but I would not define it as a 'solid' turning to the darkside from that one act. Maybe she'll regret it? Remeber how many acts/situations it took for Palpatine to set tp, to fully convert Anakin, even though he was much more disposed to such feelings and arrogance in the first place than the Handmaiden ever was. Plus, therein lies another potential comparison: Anakin took the final step into the darkside when he knew of Palpatine's true identity. But Kreia is still shady - untrustworthy yes, but not directly know to be a Sith, for example. And of course, it is a much more dramatic and situation though, but it also truly lead Anakin down the path of the darkside whereas the Handmaiden's act is considerably much less melodramatic, and thus easier to justify in her scope, to give in to. Plus she would not be seemingly, obviously or directly aiding Kreia through this act that she can see, than in comaprison to Anakin's decison did for Palpatine (I'm referring to the Windu's death scene). - She feels she has lost everything by this point, and what's killing a sith? Surely that would only benefit the galaxy? - Those would more or less be her thoughts in her search for self-justification, I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
I don't know... Jumping/falling from a ship that falls through the atmosphere of a planet would seem fairly lethal, I think. And as far as can be seen from the movie cutscene, the Ebon Hawk doesn't look like its hull had been ruptured before it crashed into the rocks where it came to a stop. And it seems a bit odd that party members would start wandering off on their own while their party mates lay unconscious in the ship. But maybe I'm over-analyzing things.
Yeah - I wholeheartedly admit, that part just seems plain stupid to me. It's quite a big detail really (in order to make the fictional universe that's been created seem more believable) so I don't think you're over-analysing it at all, IMO.
I had a simlar thought in relation to the actual published version of the game, in the situation with the Mira/Hanharr fight scene: I mean, how did she get so split up from the rest of the crew and so far away from the Ebon Hawk - and still be in an alive state? Odd.
Go-to, the Remote etc were also all seperated, a bit too "neat and tidy" (if that's the correct phrase to use in this context) for my sake. They quite happily skipped over the details of that one (and by the looks of it, always intended to).


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Old 02-28-2006, 12:13 AM   #16
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In regards to those cut scenes that are missing....

I think only Team Gizka can answer this since they're working on restoring the missing cut content....

But the sound files I've heard with "Kreia" and them hunting her are actually the voice of Atris and not Kreia. Use Miles Sound Studio to listen to the files in 904KREIA.

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Old 02-28-2006, 12:14 AM   #17
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What is up with this mesage board? I've been having real problems with posting the last few days.

I'm trying to post the second half (which is actually smaller) of a large post I tried to do two days ago - however, when I click on the button to post what I've just typed, it just keeps loading, then the program ceases to respond.
I have no such problems with any other message boards I post at.

This is really annoying me now, and I'll be suprised if this even gets through...


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Old 02-28-2006, 12:28 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Distorted
What is up with this mesage board? I've been having real problems with posting the last few days.

I'm trying to post the second half (which is actually smaller) of a large post I tried to do two days ago - however, when I click on the button to post what I've just typed, it just keeps loading, then the program ceases to respond.
I have no such problems with any other message boards I post at.

This is really annoying me now, and I'll be suprised if this even gets through...
Nothing seems to be wrong with the forums on my end. If you're having problems most likely it's due to your ISP.
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Old 02-28-2006, 10:37 AM   #19
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Nothing seems to be wrong with the forums on my end. If you're having problems most likely it's due to your ISP.
No, as I said, it's just this message board, and I've had the same problem with it before on a completely different computer with a completely different internet service provider, honestly.


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Old 03-01-2006, 01:45 AM   #20
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The Distorted, I'm sorry you are having problems accessing the Forums, I do as well sometimes, especially when a new Star Wars game is released (EAW), this floods the forums with new browsers/users and slows the works down some.

But this isn't really the place for that... we do have a Feedback Forum that you are free to post your problem in.

Back on-topic folks.


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Old 03-01-2006, 02:15 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
As I understand it this is how it would have worked when the influence gap between Visas vs. Handmaiden, or Atton vs. Disciple, had grown too large. Kreia would convince them to betray you, and they'd have permanently left the party there and then, heading for Malachor.
I think it was. There are some lines in Atton or Kreia's dialogue file where Kreia tells Atton he must go to Malachor and leave the Exile. And before TSL came out, I recall reading an article in which Obsidian said that party members would leave if their influence got low enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
So, the problem with the influence system is that it doesn't take what actions you have done to earn influence gain/loss, and put them into perspective, resulting in very unnatural reactions. Why would the Handmaiden go crazy just because you talk to Visas for an hour and happen to influence her a lot during conversation? Makes no sense.
The Handmiaden was a servant to a half-mad Jedi who despised the Sith with every fiber of her being. The Handmiaden was either upset because the player was talking to (and not interrogating) someone she considered an enemy, or because the player did not execute Visas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
(Thus I prefer the Lightside path in KotOR1 as well. Revan falling back to the Dark Side just feels like a disappointing anticlimax. A waste of potential. )
Really? It felt more like a very well-executed revenge to me. Revan had been betrayed by his former student, was mindwiped, and then came back to kill him, right at what he thought was his moment of triumph, and then continued his campaign against the Republic, but much more effectively than the first time. To me, the Light Side ending in KotOR seems rather pathetic. Revan gets mindwiped, and then goes and stops the Sith like a good little boy, just as he was programmed to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
As I see it, the Exile is the last Jedi alive who has been trained in the Order from the ground up, and has any experience teaching others the way of the force. As such she would have a key role in rebuilding the Jedi Order from its near-eradication. Sending her off into the unknown leaving the Order to its own fate would feel a bit foolish.
Foolish, but neccessary. Revan was out there fighting the True Sith, and no doubt needed help. If both the Exile and Revan were working together to defeat the True Sith, it could be done much more quickly and effectively. Besides, the Exile did train the other party members in the ways of the Force. In one of the cut endings, the Exile tells Visas or the Handmaiden that she must stay behind and show others the way. While the Exile would make a better teacher, it's better than nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Distorted
I had a simlar thought in relation to the actual published version of the game, in the situation with the Mira/Hanharr fight scene: I mean, how did she get so split up from the rest of the crew and so far away from the Ebon Hawk - and still be in an alive state? Odd.
Maybe the crew just decided to do what they wanted without organizing a coordinated effort. As for how she survived, what's so surprising about that? Mira's a capable bounty hunter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Distorted
Go-to, the Remote etc were also all seperated, a bit too "neat and tidy" (if that's the correct phrase to use in this context) for my sake. They quite happily skipped over the details of that one (and by the looks of it, always intended to).
I thought it was not neccessary to explain the details. The party members obviously had different ideas for what to at Malachor, and they didn't bother to work together.

As for the cut endings, I think those are definitely better than the original one. While the original ending does make sense, the betrayals and deaths amongst your party members add a nice twist to the game. Thankfully, Team Gizka is restoring all this, so it's not much of an issue.


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Old 03-03-2006, 02:36 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
As I see it, the Exile is the last Jedi alive who has been trained in the Order from the ground up, and has any experience teaching others the way of the force. As such she would have a key role in rebuilding the Jedi Order from its near-eradication. Sending her off into the unknown leaving the Order to its own fate would feel a bit foolish.

Visas is the Exile's near-equal when it comes to command of the Force, but she's never had any Jedi training. She's a reformed/redeemed Sith, trained by Darth Nihilus who I doubt would teach her much of the Jedi philosophy. While she certainly could be incorporated into a rebuilding Jedi Order it would feel a bit strange the leave the whole rebuilding effort into her hands.
I think the point here would be that the Jedi council learned nothing from the Mandalorian War. They still refused to review their own teaching methods, and didn't truly address the possibility that they also played a part in the downfall of so many Jedi, with their strict, confined and limited teachings. I think a large part of this game tries to say that in order to truly know the force, one must have had full access to both the binary opposites/extremes, and all that comes inbetween them. Evil must not be guarded against in theory, as when the threat of real evil is upon you, you lack the experience to appropriately deal with it, and may even just be overcome by it. It must be prepared for instead, and appropriately so (one must see for themselves how far you can fall, and the consequences of thus). The fact that it was instead made such a taboo by the Council (as though deeply fearing it), only made it all the more intriguing to those that had an inclination to thoughts that weren't limited to the Council's restrictive/short-sighted view.
This also puts doubts in the minds of the students, of the Council's own faith in the redemptive strength of the light side.
The repression, desire for power and the consequental confusion (for the lack of being guided on how to deal with it) they would have felt when confronted with true and purest evil for the first time would have been too much to bare and subsequently, resist.
The irony is, that despite her conservative views and manner, Atris is in fact a prime example of this process. In her case (actually being one of the Council) the boundaries to such forms of "wandering thought" were self-imposed on her part, but also such principles were driven into her as a young padawan too, and she rather just follows than leads by example in this case, but also takes it to an extreme at the same time. Her decison to embrace these values so strongly are based paramountly on fear. She fears what is unknown to her (as she was taught to) and fears what may be revealed to herself of her own true nature (like how she truly wished she had had the courage to have gone to war like the Exile did, and thus scorned and despised him for doing so, but it was really herself that her loathing was stemming from; it was only delusionally redirected towards the Exile to protect herself from certain truths - many of them personal). Therefore, when she collects and hoards the numerous Sith artifacts, and left to her own devices, it is like the great taboo knowledge she has guarded herself against, and been indoctrinated to dismiss, all her life, is now within her grasp - something that such a possibility has been playing on the back of her mind all the time, but also never actually prepared for. It is overwhelming and she cannot resist the urge to learn of what many others were denied. Consequently, she falls too.
It would be like breaking free, and losing all inhibitions. It's reverse psychology - like a child is fascinated by what the cake may taste like, after they are told specifically not to even so much as touch it. Surely it must be something of true wonder to be considered so special? Something deemed so unique or significant is always tempting (especially to the young, inexperienced and naive mind). This combined with the fact that this also surely shows the Council's own lack of trust within their own students (to not fall or even be tempted) accentuates the feeling of the desire to rebel and also expand your horizons and knowledge. The Council is seen as patronizing, arrogant and self-righteous, making the feelings of wanting to "escape" their limitations the ever more seemingly founded and justified.

The thing with Visas is that she was a Sith (raised in the force as one, and yes - always first and foremost), but she has travelled with the Exile and seen many things since - all the extremities and everything inbetween, and if you choose to lightside (as is the canon way anyway) and she is influenced well enough (which is, as you say, fairly easy really) than she, despite the ways and philosophies in which she initially learnt Jedi powers (Dark Jedi/Sith mentality) and her traumatic and painful past, she has still chosen to walk the path of the Light. She can spread her experience of her own saviour to the new Jedi, who will be stronger for it, for hearing both sides of the story for a change.

PS I've noticed how this may seem like this thread is evolving into a "defend cut ending/defend actual lack thereof" debate, and how I'm kind of instinctively slipping into the role of the former, but this isn't deliberate. I guess it's just 'cos I like to see it as the 'true' or 'real' canon ending to the game, but I guess ultimately it won't be, ironically. It also harkens back to when I first played the game and noticed what felt like the "emptiness" of the last segment of the game, and the anticipation I felt (and still feel) when I learned said content was being restored. So, of course, I'm pre-disposed to that, and consequently I must apologize if it seems I'm coming across as arguing the case that is on the whole the opposite to yours
I guess I'm just trying to see it (not prove it) from the opposite angle, just for consideration (alot of what I have written has been myself going through my thought processes at the time, and writing it down as I think of it).
Lol - bear with me...

edit: this is the second-half of a post that was meant to be submitted several days ago...


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Old 03-03-2006, 09:04 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
The Handmiaden was a servant to a half-mad Jedi who despised the Sith with every fiber of her being. The Handmiaden was either upset because the player was talking to (and not interrogating) someone she considered an enemy, or because the player did not execute Visas.
How would she know what the Exile and Visas spoke of, or even Visas disposition change, immediately after the conversation is over? Unlike Kreia, there are no hints that the Handmaiden is omniscient as to what goes on on the Ebon Hawk.

Also, her reaction feels way off even in the situation you described. So, Visas is a Sith, the Handmaiden despises the Sith, and she perceives the Exile talks to rather than interrogate her. (Which may or may not be the case, as the Exile could be extracting information from Visas by talking to her.) Wouldn't it make more sense if the Handmaiden would talk to the Exile about her feelings on the matter, rather than just forget the very reason she's there to begin with and dart off to Malachor to take matters into her own, jealousy-powered hands?


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Really? It felt more like a very well-executed revenge to me. Revan had been betrayed by his former student, was mindwiped, and then came back to kill him, right at what he thought was his moment of triumph, and then continued his campaign against the Republic, but much more effectively than the first time. To me, the Light Side ending in KotOR seems rather pathetic. Revan gets mindwiped, and then goes and stops the Sith like a good little boy, just as he was programmed to do.
The Sith organization founded by Revan had been turned, by Malak, from its original purpose (putting the Republic under new management to strengthen it against a more terrible foe lurking in the shadows) into a "thugocracy" bent on galactic conquest for conquests own sake. Salvaging the remains of the organization and re-shaping it back to its original purpose would take a lot of time and effort, which may be in short supply.

Besides, the events preceeding and taking place during the game had shown the flaws of that original plan. Better to scrap it and to take a new approach to the situation (wich Revan ultimately did in TSL, though the specifics are scarce). Light or Dark apparently mattered little in the end, since the same thing transpired regardless.




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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Foolish, but neccessary. Revan was out there fighting the True Sith, and no doubt needed help.
Why is there no doubt that Revan needed help? I'd say what's said in the game point to quite the contrary, since she went to great lengths to ensure that no one knew where she was going, and that no one would follow.

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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Besides, the Exile did train the other party members in the ways of the Force. In one of the cut endings, the Exile tells Visas or the Handmaiden that she must stay behind and show others the way. While the Exile would make a better teacher, it's better than nothing.
All your force-trained party members (except Visas who is more of a dark counterpart to the Exile, and Kreia who dies) are neophytes, very new to the force. Most of their force training thus far has, by necessity, been combat oriented. The Handmaiden and Disciple may know a fair bit of Jedi philosophy and lore, but none of them are even padawan-level in their training and knowledge.

Leaving the rebuilding of the Jedi Order in the hands of neophytes who's only been force trained for a few months at most and never (Disciple excluded) been part of the Order, or in the hands of a fallen Sith who may be strong and knowledgeable in the force but know little of the Jedi, would seem like a rather odd thing to do.

The Exile is a trained Jedi Knight, who has experience teaching others in the past. She's seen, and experienced firsthand, the less savory aspects of the Jedi. She has experience of both sides of the Force, and experience of being cut off from it entirely. She has seen the direct consequence of the complacence and arrogance that had grown within the Order. -- What person would be best suited to re-form the Jedi Order in a less flawed shape, someone with all that experience, or a bunch of Neophyte force sensitives that at most know how to swing a lightsaber?

Now, Visas and your other force sensitive party members would play an integral part of rebuilding the Jedi Order, I just have trouble seeing them spearheading and leading the effort.

From the player perspective, it's also a more satisfying ending to envision the Exile as the progenitor of the new Jedi Order that would live on another 4000 years, rather than just some random mook who left for uncharted space never to be heard from again.


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Old 03-03-2006, 09:50 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon

To me, the Light Side ending in KotOR seems rather pathetic. Revan gets mindwiped, and then goes and stops the Sith like a good little boy, just as he was programmed to do.

That's true, if you select all of the "Jedi Council is the greatest thing since sliced bread" dialogue options, which I never do, there is definitely a feeling that he's just operating on his programming. Depending on the way you play the LS storyline, you can create a much more conflicted protagonist and it makes the final decision to refuse Bastila's offer a much more rewarding one.

The problem I have with DS and why I've never done it more than once, is when everything is all said and done the big picture hasn't changed much. The Jedi and Republic are fighting a losing war and the Sith are on the verge of total triumph. Your presence in the game, ultimately did little to change any of that.
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Old 03-03-2006, 01:59 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by TheGreenGoblin
The problem I have with DS and why I've never done it more than once, is when everything is all said and done the big picture hasn't changed much. The Jedi and Republic are fighting a losing war and the Sith are on the verge of total triumph. Your presence in the game, ultimately did little to change any of that.
Not true. If you do LS and end up killing Bastila (thus stopping her from using her Battle Meditation) then the Republic fleet destroy the Star Forge (and of course, she had been using it for quite some time already in the battle). Therefore, it is appropriate to conclude that in the DS path, if Bastila hadn't used her Battle Meditation against the Republic fleet, then they still would've blown up the Star Forge, thus ending the war.
Hypothetically, even if Malak had still escaped, with the Star Forge gone, the Sith would now have been on the losing end of the war, undoubtedly.
Admittedly, I'm talking about Bastila here - not Revan. But do you really believe that she could have gotten that far into the Star Forge if Revan wasn't there with her. Personally, I very much doubt that.
They both manage to take control of the Star Forge, and also basically beat the Republic's last significant attempt to turn the tide of the war.


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Old 03-03-2006, 02:31 PM   #26
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^^

Good point, I hadn't taken Bastila's role in the battle into account.


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Hypothetically, even if Malak had still escaped, with the Star Forge gone, the Sith would now have been on the losing end of the war, undoubtedly.
Not necessarily. Even with the Forge's destruction the Sith still had a large and formidable military force behind them. TSL I believe points out the reason for the decline of the Sith was due to the lack of a strong leader.
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Old 03-04-2006, 03:39 AM   #27
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I think these endings would be alot better then the current ending. Hell, anything is better!


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Old 03-04-2006, 06:28 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by TheGreenGoblin
^^

Good point, I hadn't taken Bastila's role in the battle into account.




Not necessarily. Even with the Forge's destruction the Sith still had a large and formidable military force behind them. TSL I believe points out the reason for the decline of the Sith was due to the lack of a strong leader.
Yes - who has the ability to utilise and control the Star Forge. That's why they started to fail, because consequently the Star Forge was no longer in use.

Okay, it's not certain, I admit, but if the Republiuc force could destroy the Star Forge, then surely that at least proves that they - even on the losing end of the war - had a formidable front-line military (the one Admiral Dodonna commands). Now take that front-line military (that still remains after the Star Forge's destruction) and put that against the Sith who no longer have infinite resources, and I believe (unless the Sith have a mastermind back-up plan) they could defeat any front-line or defense party the Sith throw at them.


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Old 03-04-2006, 10:18 AM   #29
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where the parts where the party tried to stop Kreia supposed to end in all their deaths, or just them being...neutralized? I would have been immensly dissatisfied if they all just dropped dead beyond the control of the player at the end of the game. It would have made the entire game pointless. imo
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Old 03-05-2006, 12:36 AM   #30
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where the parts where the party tried to stop Kreia supposed to end in all their deaths, or just them being...neutralized? I would have been immensly dissatisfied if they all just dropped dead beyond the control of the player at the end of the game. It would have made the entire game pointless. imo
I'm pretty sure they are just 'neutralized', as you say. I mean, Atton can come with your female Exile at the end for example, and in some circumstances either Visas, Brianna or Mical are left by the Exile to train more jedi or sith for the oncoming assault from the real sith.


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Old 03-07-2006, 02:17 PM   #31
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some of the cut endings are mutually exclusive and almost looks like they really couldn't decide what to end with.

and the other thing is, that list of cut endings doesn't seem complete?

When you have more influence with Vistas, then Handmaiden attacks her..but what if you have more influence with Handmaiden?

I don't Get the GOTO thing though...i don't even get his logic in the ending we have.
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Old 03-11-2006, 08:37 AM   #32
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Wow, I knew they had cut a lot of content, but that is incredible.
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Old 03-13-2006, 02:15 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
How would she know what the Exile and Visas spoke of, or even Visas disposition change, immediately after the conversation is over? Unlike Kreia, there are no hints that the Handmaiden is omniscient as to what goes on on the Ebon Hawk.
Video games are not entirely realistic; things like that often happen in them. Creating a cutscene where someone tells the Handmaiden about the Exile speaking to Visas would be fairly easy to do, but in order to maintain consistency the developers would have to make similar cutscenes for all of the party members for topics other than speaking to Visas as well. The work would add up, and it has no real impact on the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
Also, her reaction feels way off even in the situation you described. So, Visas is a Sith, the Handmaiden despises the Sith, and she perceives the Exile talks to rather than interrogate her. (Which may or may not be the case, as the Exile could be extracting information from Visas by talking to her.) Wouldn't it make more sense if the Handmaiden would talk to the Exile about her feelings on the matter, rather than just forget the very reason she's there to begin with and dart off to Malachor to take matters into her own, jealousy-powered hands?
Even if that cut content was still in the game, it's quite likely that the Handmaiden would still launch her tirade about Visas not being trustworthy. And no matter what the player says, she'll get upset about the matter and turn to Kreia, who manipulates her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
Why is there no doubt that Revan needed help? I'd say what's said in the game point to quite the contrary, since she went to great lengths to ensure that no one knew where she was going, and that no one would follow.
Well, he's one Sith Lord going up against the most powerful faction that currently exists in the galaxy. It took him a great deal of effort to take over the Sith, but this time he has to destroy an empire that's much stronger, and he knew no one strong enought to help him. Surely he could use some backup? As for why he concealed where he was going, there was no one he could currently turn to for any useful help. Who would he bring with him? His party members were not strong enough, the Exile was currently in a weakened state, Sion and Nihilus hadn't reached the height of their power, and who knows where Kreia was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
All your force-trained party members (except Visas who is more of a dark counterpart to the Exile, and Kreia who dies) are neophytes, very new to the force. Most of their force training thus far has, by necessity, been combat oriented. The Handmaiden and Disciple may know a fair bit of Jedi philosophy and lore, but none of them are even padawan-level in their training and knowledge.
I'd have to agree with you about the Disciple, but not the Handmaiden. She was able to stand up and temporarily defeat a fallen member of the Council. Surely that proves she's far more powerful than any Padawan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
Leaving the rebuilding of the Jedi Order in the hands of neophytes who's only been force trained for a few months at most and never (Disciple excluded) been part of the Order, or in the hands of a fallen Sith who may be strong and knowledgeable in the force but know little of the Jedi, would seem like a rather odd thing to do.
It is an odd thing to do, but there are no alternative candidates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
The Exile is a trained Jedi Knight, who has experience teaching others in the past. She's seen, and experienced firsthand, the less savory aspects of the Jedi. She has experience of both sides of the Force, and experience of being cut off from it entirely. She has seen the direct consequence of the complacence and arrogance that had grown within the Order. -- What person would be best suited to re-form the Jedi Order in a less flawed shape, someone with all that experience, or a bunch of Neophyte force sensitives that at most know how to swing a lightsaber?
Obviously the former, but I never said anything against that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
From the player perspective, it's also a more satisfying ending to envision the Exile as the progenitor of the new Jedi Order that would live on another 4000 years, rather than just some random mook who left for uncharted space never to be heard from again.
Well, who says the Exile is never coming back? KotOR III hasn't come out, so we have no way of knowing if the Exile will die.


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Old 03-13-2006, 03:57 AM   #34
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it seems to me it makes no sense for them to stay and the exile to leave.

Also Handmaiden didn't defeat Atris, she lost. All she might have been able to do was phase her a tad, plus she has echani training to help her. It doesn't matter if you win or lose against Atris in the in game fighting, the result is the same.
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Old 03-13-2006, 08:04 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Even if that cut content was still in the game, it's quite likely that the Handmaiden would still launch her tirade about Visas not being trustworthy. And no matter what the player says, she'll get upset about the matter and turn to Kreia, who manipulates her.
Which makes no sense. The Exile is the one who's supposed to be a natural leader, inspiring confidence and loyalty in others. Why would she not listen to the Exile who may give a very plausible explanation, but listen to Kreia who she's already suspicious of?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Well, he's one Sith Lord going up against the most powerful faction that currently exists in the galaxy. It took him a great deal of effort to take over the Sith, but this time he has to destroy an empire that's much stronger, and he knew no one strong enought to help him. Surely he could use some backup?
Not necessarily. When you face an organization which is far stronger and more powerful than you, head-on conflict may not be the best option. That was the option Revan tried first, and which apparently failed. More subtle options not relying on initial strength of numbers may be preferable. Palpatine was able to take over the entire galaxy-spanning Republic starting out just with himself and no one else.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
I'd have to agree with you about the Disciple, but not the Handmaiden. She was able to stand up and temporarily defeat a fallen member of the Council. Surely that proves she's far more powerful than any Padawan?
Combat prowess is only part of the equation. Knowledge, wisdom, devotion to a philosophy and ability to manipulate the force in other ways are other key factors. They may be good at fighting, but merely being able to swing a lightsaber skillfully does not make someone a Jedi Knight.

As for the Handmaiden, I seem to recall her ending up in a smoking, electrocuted heap on the floor, not standing victorious over Atris broken body. Sure, she beat Atris in a lightsaber duel, which is hardly surprising considering that the Handmaiden has been a warrior practicing melee combat pretty much from birth, while Atris has been a librarian and hardly strikes you as ever having been the warrior/guardian type. But Atris command of the Force was obviously stronger, allowing her to call upon the mighty Force Plot-Lightning. "There are techniques in the Force against which there is no defense..." indeed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
It is an odd thing to do, but there are no alternative candidates.
I say there is: The Exile. Stay behind, rebuild the Jedi Order into a better organization and help stabilize the Republic, so you may operate from a position of strength with that power base behind you, rather than rush away all alone into the unknown.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Well, who says the Exile is never coming back? KotOR III hasn't come out, so we have no way of knowing if the Exile will die.
Of course anything but speculation is impossible at this stage. Though if Obsidian continues to develop the next game and continues on the track to make the series a bit more PS:Torment-esque the whole thing would probably end with the death of the protagonist(s) in some remote location that no one would know of.

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Old 03-14-2006, 07:09 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
Which makes no sense. The Exile is the one who's supposed to be a natural leader, inspiring confidence and loyalty in others. Why would she not listen to the Exile who may give a very plausible explanation, but listen to Kreia who she's already suspicious of?

She was furious at the Exile. That made it harder for the Exile to speak to her, and Kreia was able to manipulate her into serving her own purposes. The Handmaiden's anger clouded her judgement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
Not necessarily. When you face an organization which is far stronger and more powerful than you, head-on conflict may not be the best option. That was the option Revan tried first, and which apparently failed. More subtle options not relying on initial strength of numbers may be preferable. Palpatine was able to take over the entire galaxy-spanning Republic starting out just with himself and no one else.
That is true, but Palpatine was at the advantage. The Republic had believed the Sith to be long dead, and by the time they realized the Sith were still alive, he had a great amount of power. Palpatine was also facing a much weaker enemy than Revan, and he had decades with which to fight it. Revan, however, is facing an enemy far stronger than the Republic, and he does not have decades to work with. In addition, the fact the he's a human will make him stound out. Revan probably will try to be as stealthy as possible, but given his situation, combat is inevitable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
Combat prowess is only part of the equation. Knowledge, wisdom, devotion to a philosophy and ability to manipulate the force in other ways are other key factors. They may be good at fighting, but merely being able to swing a lightsaber skillfully does not make someone a Jedi Knight.
You said yourself that the Handmaiden and Disciple know a fair bit of Jedi lore and philosophy. In addition, they are both aligned to the Light Side, and the Handmaiden is a skilled fighter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
I say there is: The Exile. Stay behind, rebuild the Jedi Order into a better organization and help stabilize the Republic, so you may operate from a position of strength with that power base behind you, rather than rush away all alone into the unknown.
That would no doubt take years, time in which Revan could not survive.


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