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Old 03-15-2006, 11:35 AM   #1
Darth Macca
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If Darth Maul lived...

I was just wondering this the other night. What if Darth Maul (after inserting his Lightsaber into poor old Qui-Gon) killed Obi-Wan aswell? Would Anakin be allowed to be trained? It would have been so different. Darth Maul - The dark lord of the Sith? Pretty interesting one thinks...
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Old 03-15-2006, 11:59 AM   #2
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Well darth maul was a dark lord of the sith so the title would be the same

and i think it wouldve turned out pretty similar anyway palpatine himself wouldve just killed maul after he was done with him and then taken on dooku as his apprentice


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Old 03-15-2006, 12:12 PM   #3
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I disagree. I think he would have stuck with Maul, he's a far better Sith Lord than Count Dooku and if Darth Maul had killed two Jedi Knights, that would have enhanced his reputation even more. Palpatine speaks very highly of Maul during Episode I, he had high hopes for Maul.
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Old 03-15-2006, 12:25 PM   #4
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Nope

If he would've stuck with maul it would've ruined his whole plan for taking control of the galaxy

He needed someone more political and more capable of funding and controlling an army which maul simply wasnt, Maul was an assasin and was trained from birth to be an assasin not a general and certainly not politacally minded.

Thats why his death was of no importance to palpatine he used him for what he needed and that was it he was a pawn of palpatnes just like dooku was.


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Old 03-15-2006, 01:00 PM   #5
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yes you are right at the fact that dooku is more engineered for politics than maul, that's obvious. but why kill darth maul? if chancellor palpatine is so powerful, maul would to be of no threat to him and only be an advantage to palpatine. darth maul seemed loyal enough to follow the dark lords orders and i'm pretty dam sure palpatine would persuade dooku to work alongside maul - they would form a great partnership.
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Old 03-15-2006, 01:09 PM   #6
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Remember Palpatine was a Sith of Darth Banes order where there can only be two Sith at any one time.

this is also the reason he got Anakin to kill Dooku and no doubt if Maul had survived he wouldve got Dooku to kill him.


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Old 03-15-2006, 07:07 PM   #7
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I think Darth Maul would kill Palpatine himself, just because he'd become more powerful.


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Old 03-16-2006, 01:59 AM   #8
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Why do people think Darth Maul is a "better Sith Lord" than Count Dooku? It's not as if Dooku can't fight, he clearly is a masterful swordsman and a match for Yoda in sheer force power. He only loses to Anakin when Anakin starts to use his anger (dark side) to win. He is "the chosen one" after all, so in a way fighting Sith is his "speciality."

We don't learn much about Darth Maul in the movies, but he seems to be a pretty loyal henchman. A great fighter, but I'm sure Dooku could handle him. Would Palpatine seek to replace Maul with Dooku if Maul hadn't died? (We need not assume that to live Maul had to kill both Qui Gon AND Obi-Wan, perhaps he was forced to flee or something in our alternative scenario, though his "mission" was undoubtably to kill the Jedi and then the Queen if she failed to sign the treaty which by this time had little chance of happening). I'm sure Sideous's plan was to use the "tragic death" of the Queen and situation on Naboo to get the sympathy vote and make sure he could secure his powerbase as a purported "reformer" of the corrupt Senate (since after all, if they couldn't help this poor pacifist nation from the greedy corporate armies, clearly new leadership was needed, somebody smart and noble like.. Palpatine!).

Was Darth Maul powerful enough to take on Yoda? I doubt it. Would he have become powerful enough over time? Who knows...

I realize there's EU stuff about Darth Maul showing how "bada$$" he is and trying to turn him into the next Boba Fett (himself an overblown character in the EU if there ever was one), but I haven't read it. I'm just going by what we know from the movie and the TPM novelisation. Maul's role in TPM is closer to Vader's in ANH, only without the lively banter and air of authority.


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Old 03-16-2006, 02:36 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commander Obi-Wan
I think Darth Maul would kill Palpatine himself, just because he'd become more powerful.
How'd you work that one out? Even yoda couldnt beat palpatine?

Palpatine >> Dooku >> Maul


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Old 03-16-2006, 03:06 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Darth_Terros
Nope

....He needed someone more political and more capable of funding and controlling an army which maul simply wasnt.........

He did but do you think Dooku was the only man with pull in the Galaxy? Besides, Dooku doesn't know about the rule of two....
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Old 03-16-2006, 10:40 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Why do people think Darth Maul is a "better Sith Lord" than Count Dooku? It's not as if Dooku can't fight, he clearly is a masterful swordsman and a match for Yoda in sheer force power. He only loses to Anakin when Anakin starts to use his anger (dark side) to win. He is "the chosen one" after all, so in a way fighting Sith is his "speciality."
Don't get me wrong, Dooku is a decent swordsman - but I don't agree that he is a match for Yoda in force power. In Episode II, Yoda calmly stops every obstacle thrown at him by Dooku with great ease. Dooku struggles to keep up with Yoda with the lightsaber so he flees. Yoda makes Dooku look very ordinary. I think Darth Maul (had he gained more power) would have become a great Sith Lord - a possible threat to Palpatine and Yoda. If he was given more time and learned the ways of the force more, he would have dispatched Count Dooku rather easily.
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Old 03-16-2006, 11:15 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Sir Knight
Dooku doesn't know about the rule of two....
What? yes he did! what makes you say that?

I think Darth Maul is very very overrated remember guys he is just a big ball of hatred not much else really i dont think he would've made a great sith lord at all as it takes a bit more than just being angry to be as powerful as someone like Palpatine

Like i said earlier Darth Maul was just a tool of Palpatines to get rid of necesary people standing in his way once that was done their was no need for him and he wouldve been discarded.

Has anyone here read shadow hunter? that pretty much sums up Maul and he just seems to be Palpatines hunting dog.


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Old 03-16-2006, 11:24 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Terros
What? yes he did! what makes you say that?
I think he might be referring to Asajj Ventress, but technically she was Dooku's disciple, not his apprentice. A mere Dark Jedi, not a Sith.

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Old 03-16-2006, 11:27 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alkonium
I think he might be referring to Asajj Ventress, but technically she was Dooku's disciple, not his apprentice. A mere Dark Jedi, not a Sith.
Yeah Ventress was never a sith just a disciple

Dooku clearly knows about the rule of two as i think its in labyrinth of evil? he is clearly worried about Palpatine taking on Anakin as his apprentice and he knows its going to happen and when it does his time will be up.


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Old 03-16-2006, 11:35 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Darth_Terros
What? yes he did! what makes you say that?

I think Darth Maul is very very overrated remember guys he is just a big ball of hatred not much else really i dont think he would've made a great sith lord at all as it takes a bit more than just being angry to be as powerful as someone like Palpatine
He wasn't all hatred, he was very loyal to his master and very ambitious. Qui-Gon Jin was a great Jedi and he knew Darth Maul was a well trained Sith after they encountered on Tatooine. His hatred only shone during his duels which made him stronger. It makes every Sith Lord stronger when anger and hatred is combined. You've got to remember aswell - he almost killed off Obi-Wan if it wasn't for a huge slice of luck.
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Old 03-16-2006, 11:44 AM   #16
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The thing that made Darth Maul able to channel the Darkside was hatred, he used his hatred to fight and to even feel the force.

Sadly this was Darth Mauls undoing his hatred of the jedi was soo strong he lost focus of the task at hand.


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Old 03-16-2006, 11:47 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Darth_Terros
The thing that made Darth Maul able to channel the Darkside was hatred, he used his hatred to fight and to even feel the force.

Sadly this was Darth Mauls undoing his hatred of the jedi was soo strong he lost focus of the task at hand.
At what time in Episode I did Maul lose focus of the task in hand? If I remember correctly, he took on every task given by Palpatine with great authority and did them very well until the end when he was decieved by great move from Obi-Wan.
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Old 03-16-2006, 11:50 AM   #18
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Well he lost focus and got cut down by a mere padawan


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Old 03-16-2006, 11:56 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Darth_Terros
Well he lost focus and got cut down by a mere padawan
As I say - a great move orchestrated by Obi-Wan by using the force. And I might add ... a mere Padawan who goes on to almost condemn Darth Vader to his death if not for Palpatine.

And let's just forget the fact that he struck down a terrific Jedi in Qui-Gon Jin!
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Old 03-16-2006, 11:58 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Darth Macca
As I say - a great move orchestrated by Obi-Wan by using the force. And I might add ... a mere Padawan who goes on to almost condemn Darth Vader to his death if not for Palpatine.
yeah but at the time he fought maul he was just a mere padawan and maul was a Dark Lord Of The Sith.


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Old 03-16-2006, 12:03 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Darth_Terros
yeah but at the time he fought maul he was just a mere padawan and maul was a Dark Lord Of The Sith.
You make Obi-Wan sound as if he was a Padawan with no potential nor skill. He was Padawan with a great mind and feel for the force even when he was a MERE Padawan. Qui-Gon stated that Obi-Wan was ready for the trials and should no longer be a Padawan learner.

The potential was always there with Obi-Wan and he was just waiting to pull off something spectacular which would make him a complete Jedi.
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Old 03-16-2006, 12:06 PM   #22
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I never said he wasnt skilled *infact i think he couldve been the greatest jedi ever if he didnt have to go into hiding* But even the best Padawan shouldnt be able to take down a Dark Lord.


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Old 03-16-2006, 12:14 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Darth_Terros
I never said he wasnt skilled *infact i think he couldve been the greatest jedi ever if he didnt have to go into hiding* But even the best Padawan shouldnt be able to take down a Dark Lord.
Yes, he may be classified as a Dark Lord of the Sith, but he was still a mere apprentice who was still learning. How lucky did Obi-Wan get in the final duel? Maul was a mentor still learning off Palpatine, how could Maul be definatly sure that Obi-Wan was going to grasp Qui-Gon's lightsaber whilst flying in mid-air? It takes a Sith with a great knowledge of the force to work that one out.
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Old 03-16-2006, 12:21 PM   #24
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He still shoul've been prepared for the attack though the guy is basically a living weapon of palpatines from whats been said about him he seems to train every moment of the day surely he would've been prepared for a suprise attack.

But like i said his anger of the jedi clouded his focus making him open to such an attack.


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Old 03-16-2006, 12:28 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Darth_Terros
He still shoul've been prepared for the attack though the guy is basically a living weapon of palpatines from whats been said about him he seems to train every moment of the day surely he would've been prepared for a suprise attack.

But like i said his anger of the jedi clouded his focus making him open to such an attack.
Maybe Maul underestimated Obi-Wan, I almost definatly think he did. As Obi-Wan was only a mere Padawan it would fool most. But yes you are right, a Dark Lord shouldn't advertise himself to be stuck down ... but at the end of the day he was a Sith still learning and craving the force. That's why I named the topic 'If Darth Maul lived...'. Say if Obi-Wan didn't get so lucky and he went spiriling down the black hole, would Maul have learned everything about the Jedi and every move they make and become a true Dark Lord? Palpatine was trained in the arts of the Jedi which he was passing onto Maul. A learning mentor can never be fully knowledgeable of the force which was proven in the final duel.
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Old 03-16-2006, 12:35 PM   #26
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Either way Darth Maul was doomed to die from the very moment Palpatine chose him as his apprentice.

There was probably a great deal palpatine didnt tell maul to keep him from getting too powerful and as soon as he of no use palpatine would've stricken him down and taken a new apprentice.

In a way Mauls loyalty would've been his end, he served palpatine completly he knew nothing else but what palpatine told him he was essentially palpatines pet and would never have gone agaisnt him.


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Old 03-16-2006, 12:41 PM   #27
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You have just proved my point!

'There was probably a great deal palpatine didnt tell maul to keep him from getting too powerful'

That's what I'm trying to get across. If he killed Obi-Wan and learned more about the force he would become very powerful within the Dark Side. I really do think he would rival Palpatine if he chose to be dishonest to his master. We'll be debating about this forever because we are never going to agree on this.
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Old 03-16-2006, 12:45 PM   #28
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he would've become just as powerful as anyone who studies the darkside but i dont think he would've ever truly gain the power to rival Sidious.


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Old 03-16-2006, 12:46 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Darth Macca
Maybe Maul underestimated Obi-Wan, I almost definatly think he did. As Obi-Wan was only a mere Padawan it would fool most. But yes you are right, a Dark Lord shouldn't advertise himself to be stuck down ... but at the end of the day he was a Sith still learning and craving the force. That's why I named the topic 'If Darth Maul lived...'. Say if Obi-Wan didn't get so lucky and he went spiriling down the black hole, would Maul have learned everything about the Jedi and every move they make and become a true Dark Lord? Palpatine was trained in the arts of the Jedi which he was passing onto Maul. A learning mentor can never be fully knowledgeable of the force which was proven in the final duel.
While I agree that Darth Maul was Super powerful, I really don't think Palpatine would have kept him around if he had survived. Why?

1) Would YOU believe that Darth Maul was the leader of the Separatists? Sorry, he doesn't seem like the whole "Take charge and lead" guy.

2) Maul could become so powerful he would kill Palpatine, as Palpatine killed his master.

One more note...Palpatine was never trained as a Jedi. He was trained in Sith forms of combat.



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Old 03-16-2006, 12:49 PM   #30
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One more note...Palpatine was never trained as a Jedi. He was trained in Sith forms of combat.
I was gonna mention that but seeing as Sith teachings descend from the Jedi who left the order they do take some jedi teachings ie Lightsaber combat


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Old 03-16-2006, 12:52 PM   #31
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And to answer your other question..."Would Anakin be allowed to be trained?"

I think the Jedi Council made their decision before the death of Qui-Gon, so when they find out when they're on Naboo that both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are killed, then the Jedi would take him in.

Plus, I don't think Palpatine would allow Anakin to slip through the cracks. He would most surely kill Darth Maul if he was still alive over Anakin. Anakin is the Chosen One, after all.



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Old 03-16-2006, 12:56 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Darth_Terros
I was gonna mention that but seeing as Sith teachings descend from the Jedi who left the order they do take some jedi teachings ie Lightsaber combat
While the Sith teachings do originate from Jedi teachings, they are quite opposite.

The Sith harness their emotions, while the Jedi repress them.

Thus, they both have even different lightsaber combat forms. The Sith are more agressive, and their combat styles are not recognized as the main Forms of Lightsaber combat.



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Old 03-16-2006, 01:02 PM   #33
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Oh yeah obviously the Sith and Jedi teachings are totally different

What i ment though is that it stems from Jedi teachings the Sith style of lightsaber combat are essentially very violent and modified forms of Jedi Styles

Anyway alot of the original Sith teachings are nothing to do with the jedi seeing as the original sith had never even seen a jedi till they showed up one day cast out of the Jedi order

Its mainly over time after the complete extinction *well this might not be true in light of things said in KOTOR2* when more Sith where just fallen Jedi did the more Jedi like styles seep into Sith teachings


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Old 03-16-2006, 01:02 PM   #34
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He would most surely kill Darth Maul if he was still alive
Would be an interesting duel if Darth Maul filled his potential and became very powerful within the dark side. I don't think it would be as easy, I think Palpatine would stumble upon Maul and effectively be killed.
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Old 03-16-2006, 01:05 PM   #35
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Darth maul is nothing but a insect to the power Palpatine had even at his strongest Darth Maul would've had problems.

I mean did you see the speed he took down those Jedi masters?!?! and those guys are super tough!

i mean FFS even yoda could'nt beat palpatine christ im sure even Exar Kun would've had problems.


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Old 03-16-2006, 01:07 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Why do people think Darth Maul is a "better Sith Lord" than Count Dooku?
I never said Maul was better than Dooku. Plus it was what I though. Also, Palpatine grew more powerful from the time of Darth Maul to when he ressurricted (spelling?) to the Dark Side. You never know, Darth Maul could have become more powerful.

Also you can't exactly compare Tyrannus to Maul. Different time. Darth Maul could have become more powerful.


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Old 03-16-2006, 01:20 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Darth_Terros
Darth maul is nothing but a insect to the power Palpatine had even at his strongest Darth Maul would've had problems.

I mean did you see the speed he took down those Jedi masters?!?! and those guys are super tough!

i mean FFS even yoda could'nt beat palpatine christ im sure even Exar Kun would've had problems.
Don't get me wrong, everyone would have problems fighting Darth ****ing Sidious, but it doesn't mean he is undefeatable. Windu had him in his grasp until Anakin chopped off him arm. Sidious was running out of gas against Yoda - that's why he looked to the force to fend Yoda off. He has a lot of weaknesses that Maul could've exploited.
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Old 03-16-2006, 01:33 PM   #38
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It just seems the basis of your arguement is if Darth maul was left to his own devices and knew everything about the darkside he would be the most powerful sithlord ever

When i could easily say well if Chief Chirpa *or anyone in the SW universe with force potential* was left to his own devices and knew everything about the darkside he would be the most powerful sithlord ever

Its excactly the same arguement and you really dont seem to be taking in the flaws of Darth maul at all.

like i said read Shadow Hunter it'll give you more insight into darth maul and why he is the way he is and why he wasnt that great a Sith lord.

He was simply a killer with very little knowledge of much else.


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Old 03-16-2006, 01:44 PM   #39
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I can't help thinking Darth_Terros that all your facts on Darth Maul have come from a wikipedia and not your own knowledge.

Just a theory.
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Old 03-16-2006, 01:51 PM   #40
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Infact all my facts on Darth Maul have come from TPM movie,TPM novel,the Darth Maul novel shadow hunter,the Darth Maul comics and the random stories seen in the tales comics


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