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Old 03-15-2006, 02:44 AM   #1
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Force sensitives?

In KIII would you like to have some aspects of force based gameplay de-emphasized (there where the duels in TSL, but not a lot else) at certain points, or at least a longer, more intense "warm up period" where you have to rely more on strategy, and efficient application of the military skills of you and your party members?


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Old 03-15-2006, 03:11 AM   #2
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So are you saying no Force powers? If so then yes. I'm always up for a good fight.

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Old 03-15-2006, 03:17 AM   #3
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I'm not saying none at all, just that I would like to work a lot harder and longer before getting them, maybe at least 10 levels without force training, it would help define your characters individuality outside of the order or sith. Plus it would make it worth more. Also, once I acquire my powers, it would be cool to face enemies who use force nullification technologies and powers to force you back to vibroblades and blasters to avoid suffering severe penalties.

Luke, Obi and the rest are rather dull, we need more HAN SOLO


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Old 03-15-2006, 03:31 AM   #4
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Like others have said, this is Knights of the Old Republic, so having to use blasters and swords and your Force powers not being effective won't be very fun IMO.


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Old 03-15-2006, 12:10 PM   #5
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i think we shouldnt start of wid dem like kotor2 but not have 2 wait 4 a while 2 get them like kotor1 so maybe u can choose if ur a jedi or not
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Old 03-15-2006, 12:58 PM   #6
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Imo i reckon you will start off with minium force powers anda lightsabre. Building one in TSL was a pain in the ass. I think you get one at the start but during the story you lose it or it gets destroyed and u have to make a new one.

Yes i think you will start off as a jedi.
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Old 03-15-2006, 01:01 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REDJOHNNYMIKE
I'm not saying none at all, just that I would like to work a lot harder and longer before getting them, maybe at least 10 levels without force training
If there is one thing we and the developers have learned, it's that players who buy a game about Jedi want to be a Jedi from the beginning. That includes having a lightsaber and force powers.

What was the biggest complaint about KOTOR? "It takes too long to become a Jedi!"

What was the biggest complaint about TSL? "I takes too long to get a lightsaber!"

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Old 03-15-2006, 06:07 PM   #8
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Old 03-15-2006, 06:40 PM   #9
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Yeah me too. Although sword play is fun...The entry level force powers are annoying and progression slow (I don't care what class you chose to be) It was cool in TSL starting out jedified but agreed getting the lightsaber was dull as dishwater and it forced you to Nar Shadaa to get it early. You shouldn't be forced to a planet to do things like that. It was ok in Kotor going to Dantooine but I think most people played Kotor before playing TSL and therefore looking for a new experience. Well I was anyway.

The annoying thing in both games is that much of the cool armour, weopons accessories is slow in coming and then somewhere in the middle of came you find more stuff then you'll ever use or want. It's good for selling but can get annoying finding umpteen short sabers when you would prefer some new form of tricked out Jedi Robes or Armour.


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Old 03-15-2006, 06:58 PM   #10
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Am I in the minority in enjoying *not* being a Jedi from the beginning, then? I rather liked it. It made it seem a little more...sensible. I can't explain why...It just did.



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Old 03-16-2006, 01:53 AM   #11
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@Prime, uh I bought the game (xbox,pc,IIxbox,IIpc) I want it to be about jedi, and I don't want the jedi experience to be shallow. Starting off with a lightsaber and force powers without having to earn them (while making sense for the "I want it all right now" sith) doesn't seem to reflect the kind of patience a true jedi mantains.

The first time I played KI I was like everybody else, "Hey where's all my blow everybody up and throw them across the room powers" but after a while I start to miss going into a boss fight with 50% health, two blasters, and three medpacks, instead of super-chopitall saber and instaheal.

@DI, Of course we're in the minority. Because we gotz Soul. Fight the force powers


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Old 03-16-2006, 02:03 AM   #12
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Hey I don't mind having Jedi powers; they help out in a tight spot but generally, I don't use them. I prefer to go in swords clashing and lightsabers humming.

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Old 03-16-2006, 08:29 AM   #13
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I actually prefered how it was in Kotor where you actually have to work a bit and earn the right to be accepted and trained as a jedi. It makes you appreciate being a jedi more when you have, say a planet where you're just a regular soldier etc. When you become a jedi then you've earned it one way or the other i.e going towards light or dark
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Old 03-16-2006, 08:33 AM   #14
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Well KotOR is generally about Jedi, Sith and the Force as well as the Star Wars movies aside from saving the galaxy of course. So jedi and lightsaber now.



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Old 03-16-2006, 12:36 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REDJOHNNYMIKE
@Prime, uh I bought the game (xbox,pc,IIxbox,IIpc) I want it to be about jedi, and I don't want the jedi experience to be shallow. Starting off with a lightsaber and force powers without having to earn them (while making sense for the "I want it all right now" sith) doesn't seem to reflect the kind of patience a true jedi mantains.
I'm not saying your opinion is wrong or that way is bad. I'm just saying that the overwhelming reaction from players was the desire to be a Jedi from the beginning.

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Old 03-16-2006, 01:02 PM   #16
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I see RJm point.

Face it: If you want to make an efficient party in kotor, you take Jedi.
Example: What the hell can Carth do against a lightsaber? Run away like a sissy,

I agree that the gameplay could use a bit more tactics indeed.
Maybe something with timing attacks, like in Jedi Academy, where lightsabers can actually clash.

Also, blasters should be made more effective. As soon as a Jedi gets his saber, every single blaster shot is deflected. I think it should be done differently. Maybe introducing a timing element?

Quote:
Originally Posted by REDJOHNNYMIKE
I agree. I liked the way you became in K1 more then K2. In k1, you really trained, and had to proof you are worthy, while in K2, an old witch and a Zabrrak give you power and a saber. There's no fun in that.

If you want to mess with jedi Powers from the start, go and play Jedi Academy. (Try throwing Stromtroopers from bridges, they don't like that ^^ )

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Old 03-16-2006, 01:24 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ztalker
I see RJm point.

Face it: If you want to make an efficient party in kotor, you take Jedi.
Example: What the hell can Carth do against a lightsaber? Run away like a sissy,
That, or activate an energy shield, pull out an upgraded vibroblade and defeat the saber-wielding opponent easily? Normal melee weapons are almost ridiculously powerful in these games compared to lightsabers and blasters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by REDJOHNNYMIKE
I want it to be about jedi, and I don't want the jedi experience to be shallow. Starting off with a lightsaber and force powers without having to earn them (while making sense for the "I want it all right now" sith) doesn't seem to reflect the kind of patience a true jedi mantains.
You don't think having become a Jedi in the first place would mean that you have earned your saber and force affinity? As I see it, it's years of hard work to even become a level 1 Jedi, it's not something you just decide to be and suddenly become at the flip of a switch.

Both Revan and the Exile in the past games have had years of Jedi training within the Order, both earning the rank of Knight, before the game started. It may require a similar plot condition as theirs to make a character who starts out not a Jedi to suddenly become one during the short time span a game plays out in. (Unless you start out as some green padawan who is just done with basic training when the game starts...)

* * *

Though in TSL there is so much equipment and upgrades that border on overkill that you don't really need either force powers or a lightsaber to breeze through the game. That games focused a bit too much on the equipment for my liking. With all enemies having insane saving throws only a precious few force powers were of any real use anyway by the time you got them.

Whatever the case will be, I'd prefer not having to jump through that many hoops that you had to do in TSL to get a lightsaber. Sure, if you know where to go and what to do you can scrape together the parts for a saber after finishing one planet after leaving Telos. But assuming people do this would be to railroad them down one "valid" path of playing.

* * *

In TSL, to test how the game worked if I played as a character who wasn't dead-set on reaching light or darkside Mastery ASAP, I played one game as a rather apathetic Exile. She didn't go to extreme lengths to get Light/Darkside points and she didn't do most of the side quests that had nothing to do with her main concern (i.e. the main plot).

She did not get enough parts to assemble a lightsaber until after having met 3 of the 4 Jedi Masters you are looking for, at which point you are more than 2/3 through the game. Visas Marr didn't show up until this time either, when boarding the Hawk after having met the third Jedi Master, leaving that party member spot vacant for most of the game. The Exile never gained access to the Tomb on Korriban, never received the opportunity to multiclass to a prestige class in this game, nor had the chance of training either Atton, Disciple, Bao-Dur or Mira in the ways of the force.

Sure, it leaves options open for a variety of ways to play the game, though if this had been my first playthrough and I had played that way not knowing the consequences beforehand it would have felt pretty disappointing and I don't know if I had played the game more than once.

In short, if you for some reason won't let the player start out as a Jedi with the abilities and tools that makes a Jedi special from some ordinary mook, at least don't make me wait until a sizable part of the game is over so you won't have much time left to actually use the abilities and toys.

Last edited by stoffe -mkb-; 03-16-2006 at 01:41 PM.
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Old 03-16-2006, 01:38 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
I'm not saying your opinion is wrong or that way is bad. I'm just saying that the overwhelming reaction from players was the desire to be a Jedi from the beginning.
And as we all know, the makers and developers are just trying to make money, so they'll probably give K3 more Jedi time...


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Old 03-16-2006, 02:21 PM   #19
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Hmm.

Overall, I find I have to side with the majority here. This is a game (mainly) about jedi. One of the most annoying aspects of KotOR (for me) was this period where you were held off through about 1/3 of your level progression from any aspect of your (past yet future) jedi abilities.

For one thing, unless you very deliberately stall your level progression, and are extremely careful about which feats and such you select, a lot of what you gain in the early levels of the game aren't even useful in an (unmodified) late game. One good example of this is starting as a soldier, with the theory that this would be a good basis for someone who will later become a guardian. Ok, peachy.. except of course three of your initial feats are the three levels of armor -all of which are essentially useless once you have a few jedi levels under your belt since they preclude the use of almost all force powers.

I won't even go into how stupid that is, considering several dark jedi you meet are wearing (and drop) armor, yet if YOU use it, your powers don't work... but anyways..

I think it would be far more enjoyable to begin somewhere in the apprentice or padawan stages. You've got some ability with the force, but there's still room to make a point of the importance of earning things and so forth, and even a pretty good opportunity to launch into much of the early game content. It'd be a pretty simple push to excuse some early quests and so forth on "you need to go because the council says so, young one" or whatnot.

Additionally, I very much agree with PazaakPrincess in the idea that the loot/item system could use a lot of work. They really need to do something to either make many of the unique items more unique and thereby more useful in some specific situations, else to balance things better so that you're only getting items of a given "power" in a given state of the game regardless of where you go.

Case in point, it's already possible via scripting to have say 4 'instances' of the same merchant. Part of the conditional for which instance you get could easily be checked against the level of the PC. Then the given merchant's inventory would become available in 'stages', where the more and more potent items are 'hidden' until you're higher level.

This of course is only one example of ways this balancing could be put into place, and it's far from the best case scenario. Merely it's meant to show that tools are in fact already fully in place to at least improve this aspect somewhat, so I don't really think it's out of line to wish they'd do some work in trying to improve this particular game mechanic and make the thing that much more enjoyable.

At any rate, I'm starting to wander a little wider on the issue than I intended, so I'll reign this in and leave it at that for the time being.

Cheers,
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Old 03-16-2006, 11:30 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe-mkb
You don't think having become a Jedi in the first place would mean that you have earned your saber and force affinity? As I see it, it's years of hard work to even become a level 1 Jedi, it's not something you just decide to be and suddenly become at the flip of a switch.
Yes the character has earned the right to be a Jedi, but the player has not been given the opportunity to play the role of someone who is becoming a Jedi. I personally enjoy that part of it very much, and would not want to be a Jedi from the very beginning. Yes, everyone likes having the great powers and equipment, but the excitement you feel when you are a brand new character struggling to survive against even the weakest opponents is priceless.
Quote:
Normal melee weapons are almost ridiculously powerful in these games compared to lightsabers and blasters.
Right on target there. Sometimes I have my Jedi carry melee weapons because they can do more damage. (I especially like to carry the Naga Sadow Poison Blade in my off hand. Makes short work of the Rancors on Rakata Prime.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitty Kitty
I won't even go into how stupid that is, considering several dark jedi you meet are wearing (and drop) armor, yet if YOU use it, your powers don't work... but anyways..
AMEN!!! I always hated that Darth Bandon had really powerful armor and could still use the Force. Oh well, three grenades in the first round and he's toast anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe-mkb
In short, if you for some reason won't let the player start out as a Jedi with the abilities and tools that makes a Jedi special from some ordinary mook, at least don't make me wait until a sizable part of the game is over so you won't have much time left to actually use the abilities and toys.
I agree with this. There can be a good middle ground. I may not want to start as a full-blown Jedi, but I don't want to wait half the game to become one, either. And I especially do not want to have a level cap force me to withhold level-ups.


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Old 03-17-2006, 03:03 AM   #21
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Well, the argument for starting as jedi or non will go one forever, but aside from the fact that too much sugar makes you sick (force powers), you have to remember that there is more to a jedi than just application of the force and lightsaber combat.
Being thrust straight into the order's teaching will cost you quite a few life lessons.
You could understand more about yourself by meditating in an enclave grove...You can understand more about yourself by your actions when outnumbered in a firefight as your spice deal hits the fan...You might learn something one that you wouldn't in the other (vice versa) and it's a shame to try and cut half of your charater just because a few gamers don't have any patience.
There's a good bit of both gameplay and story/character experience that you just don't get when on the jedi fast track.
Take Kreia's comments for example (one of the few things I agree with), what if you lose your saber and contract some virus that attacks your willpower, those are the main focus of jedi combat, if a jedi loses them and don't have a well rounded life experience to fall back on then they're toast.


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Old 03-17-2006, 03:26 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
I agree with this. There can be a good middle ground. I may not want to start as a full-blown Jedi, but I don't want to wait half the game to become one, either. And I especially do not want to have a level cap force me to withhold level-ups.
This is why I'm really hoping that we do get to start out as a gifted padawan learner. Give you a training lightsaber and maybe include a side-quest that would allow you to build a full-powered, personalized lightsaber later in the game. Here's to hoping
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Old 03-17-2006, 03:41 AM   #23
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Like Prime pointed out above the makers of the game will likely start us off a Jedi with a saber for the third installment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
If there is one thing we and the developers have learned, it's that players who buy a game about Jedi want to be a Jedi from the beginning. That includes having a lightsaber and force powers.

What was the biggest complaint about KOTOR? "It takes too long to become a Jedi!"

What was the biggest complaint about TSL? "I takes too long to get a lightsaber!"
You can definately put me in the Jedi and Saber from the beginning group.

Edit: That idea sounds good with me too Achilles!


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Old 03-17-2006, 06:34 AM   #24
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I'm in the 'start as a jedi apprentice and not get a sabre and powers until you have earned them' group.


Another great idea by the people who brought you beer milkshakes!
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Old 03-17-2006, 10:49 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Sun_Tzu
I'm in the 'start as a jedi apprentice and not get a sabre and powers until you have earned them' group.
But in the "real world", the Jedi has both these things by the time they become an apprentice...

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Old 03-17-2006, 10:57 AM   #26
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But in the "real world", the Jedi has both these things by the time they become an apprentice...
When i say apprentice i mean that they have only completed their initial training and are not a padawan yet. So they may have a sabre but it would have only been a training sabre.


Another great idea by the people who brought you beer milkshakes!
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Old 03-17-2006, 11:32 AM   #27
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Ah and what are they without the Force. Easy nothing more than a man or a woman or a child. I think the misconception is that people think the Jedi are like gods, in SW universe. Well big news flash, they are people and they are capable of feelings but they are trained not to let them guide their action. More emphasis on logical conclusions. To be honest I rather enjoyed TSL and fighting with a melee and I never used powers unless I had to which is when I'm outnumbered a gazillion to one. A Jedi is said to be defined by their weapon. That sounds like Sith talk. A Jedi is supposed to stand for peace and justice. They are keepers of the peace, not soldiers. All in all, I wouldn't mind having to earn the right to become a Jedi and build the lightsaber. I found it fascinating and a good experience.

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Old 03-17-2006, 11:36 AM   #28
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To me, it is gratifying, even if a bit frustrating, at working to acheive the goals of mastering the force and lightsaber, which I believe is the unconscious draw to KotOR and the reason why Jedi Academy doesn't live up.

I, for one, enjoy the growth aspect of going from a sensitive hopeful with no direction to a full-fledged master on a galaxy-sized quest.

That being said, I have to agree with Prime. Most people, for whatever reason, want to be well into their jedi training and be already equipped with force powers and lightsabers and thrown right into a galactic conflict.

KotOR is no different than any other game, it's business.
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