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Old 03-20-2006, 01:51 PM   #1
Flowing Force
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Hold On... We're Going Pretty Deep, Now...

First I must say that-- I can totally understand how some may see the Midichlorian Thing as demystifying the zen-like ambiance of the Force with scientific concepts-- though I must say that I, personally, was never thrown off by it, but immediately was absorbed even stronger INTO it. To me it only made sense, really-- the whole symbiosis thing... reciprocity... "Lifeforms working together for mutual advantage". To me it never seemed scientific, but even MORE mystical, really... Higher Reality stuff.

All Living Things ARE a part of the Universe. "Luminous beings are we... not this crude matter". All matter is TRULY moving vibrations of energy-- this is FACT... Quantum Reality. Nothing is truly SOLID... we and Everything are mostly... something other than solid. And from a scientific standpoint we really haven't been able to define the "space" between each atom that buzzes in orbit around a nucleus within a molecule that makes up a strand of DNA within the nucleus of a cell existing in an organ of a complex biological system within each living being on any planet which orbits similarly to (a) sun(s) which spiral in only a single galaxy that itself is spinning and changing in an expanding and contracting universe. It boggles the mind, but All things are truly connected, AND...

To me, Midichlorians just add ANOTHER dimention of thought and mystery to the Force... They DEEPEN my spirituality with the Force. It is MY understanding that Midichlorians are not limited to the number that one is born with. Now follow me on this one...

Energy resonates-- which means similar waves attract to each other... An individual then attracts what (s)he puts out, and focuses his/her consciousness on. "Your focus determines your reality". "Be mindful of your thoughts". One common instance in which this can be seen is the destructive way that the Dark Side may scar those who wield such powers.

I believe that yes, some people may indeed be born with higher Midichlorian counts than other people (particularly legendary figures of power, especially children of immaculate conception). But, to me, it seems clear that if one continues to act in a way that nurtures thier Highest, then those higher vibrations will be what is recieved. And acting in a way that feeds our lowest will attract lower vibrations.

And it can grow exponentially... aquiring more ability to tap and use the Force as a RESULT of using it. Now since we seem to channel the Force THROUGH the Midichlorians-- then the more Force proficient we are, the more Midichlorians we have-- and thus have willfully ATTRACTED into or BIRTHED within ourselves.

If we excercize compassion, peace, and righteousness, then THAT is what we resonate with, and thus become MORE of.

If we excercize intollerance, conflict, and selfishness, then THAT is what we resonate with, and thus become MORE of.

All the natural Laws of the Universe-- or The Force-- still apply: Causes lead to effects, and-- even WITHOUT upholding cultural human peerceptions of "Good" vs "Bad"-- certain intentions and actions simply attract or create peace and focus and healing, and certain other intentions and actions attract or create agitation and seperation and dis-ease.

The Power of The Force may be felt by those who have the Will (and perhaps an Opening to learn new beliefs that awaken oneself to empowerment) and focus of mind to plug into it the Flow that "surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together". That which "controls our actions, but also obeys our commands".

For me, it's not an interpretation of a Star Wars concept. It's a realisation of a Truth that I, for one, KNOW for myself, as it IS my reality, and I believe, too, that it is equally a reality for all of you. I see the power to BE the Jedi that you ARE existing RIGHT NOW-- if not in full-bloom then perhaps blossoming, or at least as a Seed of Possibility that DOES exist Here and Now within each of us. Perhaps I've lost some readers by this point (Boy, can I babble deeeeep stuff... and I can babble Star Wars!), or perhaps some of you already know of what I speak. For those who have read this far and STILL think it's quantum-hippy psychobabble, then I at least thank you for expanding your mind into a new direction for a few moments, and I invite you to ask yourself what ways the Midichlorian theory DOES tie into what you love about the Good Ol' Force. You'll probably discover some correllations of your very own!
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Old 03-20-2006, 05:48 PM   #2
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I completely agree, midichlorians themselves are mysterious, all I can think is that only the kind of person who is completely ignorant of all but the simplest scientific concepts believes that midichlorians are scientific.
Like you said, they make the force seem more mysterious, I mean, whats scientific about, "thousands of tiny living things inside you"? Qui-gon wasn't even being scientific, he was explaining it to a CHILD.



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Old 03-20-2006, 05:53 PM   #3
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I for one, found the midichlorians as a scientific explanation, which, from my point of view, made the Force seem more real. And I agree thought, that Yoda was referring to the midichlorians when he said "Luminous beings are we, not this crudem matter."

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Old 03-29-2006, 09:41 AM   #4
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Anyone else?

I (obviously) agree with you both. It's amazing how many people truly have a negetive opinion on the newer trilogy, and back-up that negetive opinion with reasons that I just CANNOT understand. My feelings around this are actually what inspired me to write my little piece, there, and begin this thread. We need not get into that right here, Perhaps we'll make another thread for that topic

Point is, holding the belief that midichlorians-- as a thematic device in the story-telling--TAKE AWAY from the mystery of the Force is-- to me-- a PERFECT example of yet ANOTHER of Qui Gonn's lessons: That YOUR FOCUS DETERMINES YOUR REALITY. If one focuses on disharmony, and picks apart the differences of the newer trilogy from the original one, then THAT'S what one will find... disharmony. Conversely, if one focuses on DEEPENING thier Understanding of the Force-- or of the Star Wars story in general-- and recieves those differences as yet ANOTHER set of building-blocks, then THAT'S what one will find... a deeper, harmonious flow.

Has anyone who has read this thread actually shifted his/her perceptions of Midichlorians? Does anyone now feel differently about them?
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Old 03-29-2006, 09:44 PM   #5
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I can see why some would find the concept of midichlorians mysterious because of the explanation given by Qui-Gon, but I see it more of a scientific explanation for the connection between living beings and the Force.

It's kinda like DNA; we're discovering more and more about how DNA literally defines every individual's characteristics, just how midichlorians define each individual's connection to the Force. And every single piece of your body contains DNA, just how every single cell in every single piece of your body contains midichlorians. While the Force is more of a "holy spirit" thing rather than a realistic force that can be explained.

The concept of midichlorians is something that many people could see from a different perspective...
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Old 03-29-2006, 11:48 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
The concept of midichlorians is something that many people could see from a different perspective...
YES! Which-- if anything-- furthers my point that it's all still ambiguous... still mysterious... still a concept that we EACH may have a different understanding of.

Quantum physics and all... There IS no actual "solid" matter... Everything "solid" is but a patterned collection of rapidly vibrating molecules, and there is still a space between each sub-atomic particle. My point? That as "scientifically explainible" as DNA and atomic science may be, it's actually STILL a tremendous mystery we've only BEGUN to explore... just like the "science" of midichlorians.

TK-8252, I totally agree with you that Qui Gon's explination of symbiosis can seem quite scientific. That same explination can seem quite transcedential or existential as well... I suppose it would depend if the listener were logical, practical, and structured in a scientific-type of mindset, or-- conversely-- if the listener were intuitive, metaphorical, and observant in an esoteric, inner-wisdom type-of mind-set.
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Old 03-30-2006, 01:59 PM   #7
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yes i totally agree, qui-gons explanation of midi-chlorians really got me into it.
the thing that slightly ruined it for me was "darth plageus" who supposedly could control even the midi-chlorians within the force that sort of took the mystification away from it a bit the fact that someone could manipulate life forms that work together for mutual advantage just sort of took the massive scale of it down a bit


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Old 03-30-2006, 04:37 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by jomaster
the thing that slightly ruined it for me was "darth plageus" who supposedly could control even the midi-chlorians within the force that sort of took the mystification away from it a bit the fact that someone could manipulate life forms that work together for mutual advantage just sort of took the massive scale of it down a bit
Don't worry about that. That's all lies.
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Old 03-31-2006, 02:51 AM   #9
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Ahhh... Lies or Truth, remember the WORDS spoken by Sideous... he spoke of the Midichlorians NOT being "controlled" or "manipulated"... He spoke of the Midichlorians being INFLUENCED to create Life. We also know that Darth Plageus could also stop people from dying. We don't really KNOW that he controlled or manipulated Midichlorians, per se... Only that he influenced them to create life. This could be no different than our own body's ability to fight infection, and minimize oxidation of bodily tissue-- preventing aging and illness. One would, essentially, be able to completely cheat death, without aging or illing.

Anyways, think of it like growing a plant. We figured out that if you put a seed in soil under certain conditions then it will germinate and grow and blossom and bloom into a plant. Mankind eventually learned such skills as agriculture, with an evolving mind that has led us-- here on earth, today-- into the science of botany and the reality of cloning.

My point? Growing a plant can be preformed by our Will to "influence the creation of life". We don't "manipulate" the plant, the seed, the soil... certainly not in any "controlling" way with arrogance over Higher Powers. Perhaps in REVERENCE of those powers... who knows? If the story IS true, then perhaps Plageus was claiming his Divine Right to harness that power... much the same way that humans doveloped writing skils, learned math, created agriculture. His was a fantastic mind. Tremendous breakthroughs in consciousness. A genius.

But-- like growing a plant-- it need not "take the mystification away", nor reduce "the scale of it". Plageus may have simply unfolded a single petal from a much larger flower of mystery.
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Old 03-31-2006, 04:24 PM   #10
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Well I had a lot more written but my keyboard glitched up and erased it (library computers suck!).

Many fans were angry that Lucas put the concept of midichlorians into TPM, which seemed like he was trying to slap an answer onto a mystery, but the answer really didn't explain much at all. They objected that it turned the mystery of the force as an "energy field" into "little bugs living in your blood."

Let's admit that just because a character said it doesn't mean they were right. For all we know Qui Gon is something of a heretic in his beliefs, maybe all the jedi don't feel as he does. But maybe not, in any case we don't get much to work with in the canon, as far as I can see.

He doesn't say that midis are the force. He says they are inside the cells of "all living things." Does that mean single celled organisms have them too? Perhaps. But anyway, he's explaining this to a little kid who asks what midichlorians are (I think he mentions Yoda talking about them, but we don't know what Yoda said). The midichlorians are said to be sentient and "if you quiet yourself, you can hear them speaking to you and telling you the will of the force." Now we don't really understand what the "will of the Force" is either, another concept introduced in TPM. Qui Gon claims that without midichlorians, life could not exist, and "we would have no knowledge of the force."

Now Obi-Wan in ANH describes the Force as a mystical energy field "created by all living things." Yoda says in ESB that "life creates it, makes it grow." But without midichlorians, "life could not exist" says Qui Gon. But if life creates the Force, then midichlorians can't be the force (you get a "chicken/egg" problem). They're just like tiny jedi living inside you that tell you the will of the force (whatever that is).

Jedi Powers are not limited to precognition, they also entail super powers like levitation, telekinesis, energy absorption or discharge (lightning, etc), super speed, etc.

Qui Gon in TPM obviously believes in the "prophecy" and claims that he detected a "vergance" around Anakin. He says "it's possible he was conceived by the midichlorians." No debate is shown, it's only admitted as a possibility. 13 years pass and the best we get in ROTS is "a prophecy that misread could have been" from Yoda. We don't get to see what the prophecy actually is or anymore about midichlorians from the Jedi.

Sideous CLAIMS that Darth Plagueis the Wise was "able to manipulate the midichlorians to create life" and "he could even stop the ones he cared about from dying." He doesn't say how this was done, and he lies to Anakin in telling him that he has this power ('this is a power only one has achieved, but if we work together I'm sure we can discover the secret' heh, oops, sorry Anakin!). Sideous could be making the whole thing up in order to lure Anakin, playing off his fears and desires and the lure of hidden or forbidden knowledge.

Anyway, according to the dialouge, all living things (that have cells) have midichlorians, not just force sensitives. It is implied that Anakins high counts ('off the charts' 'higher even than master yoda') have something to do with his potential, but it's not stated exactly how. Could you make a person stronger in the force by pumping them full of extra midichlorians? Who knows, this is never touched on. The AOTC novelisation implies (from Obi-Wan's thoughts) that you could indeed clone a Jedi and his force potential would be cloned with everything else. Of course we know that not everyone with potential exhibits that as power or ever reaches it.

Lucas says he deliberately wanted to leave Anakin's origin a mystery, so he doesn't answer whether Plagueis really created Anakin or not, in the movie. I don't care about some early script, I'm talking the G-Level edition he released, as his "definitive version" on the DVD. So I guess if you want to believe that Plagueis made Anakin, you can. Sideous certainly didn't, unless he was lying again (in that HE really did have his master's powers, which were real and not imaginary, and that he'd used them to create Anakin, and then pretended to Anakin that he didn't have the powers after all). It makes little sense that Palpatine would have created Anakin since it seemed far too risky a move to make him a slave on a backwater planet, and have him do pod races where he could be killed, and to have Darth Maul almost kill him, etc. He would have raised him in safety as an apprentice in secret. Or he would have had lots of kids around the galaxy as backup. I mean if you can make one, why not more? Why put all your eggs in one basket? Making EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS IN THE MOVIES part of Palpatine's plan just doesn't work. It makes him into an insane madman with godlike abilities. He's not. If we watch the movies and pay attention, without letting all the EU stories force us to interpret them a certain way, we can see that Palpy makes many mistakes, and adjusts his plans accordingly. In the end he doesn't forsee his own death and gets offed by Vader. I'd love to add more to this discussion, but I have a test to study for and some other things looming on the horizon, so have fun...


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Old 03-31-2006, 05:06 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Flowing Force
We also know that Darth Plageus could also stop people from dying.
Actually, we don't...
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Old 03-31-2006, 05:19 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Kurgan
Qui Gon in TPM obviously believes in the "prophecy" and claims that he detected a "vergance" around Anakin. He says "it's possible he was conceived by the midichlorians." No debate is shown, it's only admitted as a possibility. 13 years pass and the best we get in ROTS is "a prophecy that misread could have been" from Yoda. We don't get to see what the prophecy actually is or anymore about midichlorians from the Jedi.

If as qui-gon suggests, anakin is concieved by the midi-chlorians then as qui-gon says: 'without them life could not exist' and as there are no objections when he mentions this to the council we are led to believe that this is the general view (the theory of midi-chlorians) if this is true then why do yoda and obi-wan say 'life creates it' not 'it creates life' maybe its the idea of 'working together for mutual advantage' so life creates midi-chlorians (through new born lifeforms etc.) and also midi-chlorians create life (e.g anakins birth or the story of darth plageus.....if its true) so maybe it works both ways so instead of 'which comes first the chicken or the egg?' its the chicken and the egg both came at the same time.


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Old 03-31-2006, 11:48 PM   #13
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Well there's a difference between concieving Anakin (doing the job of a male's sperm) vs. creating life itself in the universe. Once you've got the midichlorians you can give them whatever powers you want. Life creates THE FORCE, it never says life creates the midichlorians. Life apparently could not exist without the midichlorians though, according to Qui Gon (and we'd have no knowledge of the Force, which seems kind of redundant, unless he means some kind of non-cellular sentient life). Sorry if that wasn't clear in my previous post (and forgot that these threads auto subscribe you, oops!).


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Old 04-01-2006, 02:20 AM   #14
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My brain hurts.

Lots to say, and lots I learned. Gotta sleep on this one, for now.
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