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Old 04-11-2006, 12:35 PM   #41
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Old 04-11-2006, 02:05 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commander Obi-Wan
Cause Anakin was becoming stronger
Was he really strong as yoda. Yoda was a master for 900 years and Anakin wasn't. Anakin was just a jedi for about 10 or more years plus Anakin had 20000 midichlorians and he didn't have soooo much experience as Yoda.

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Originally Posted by Commander Obi-Wan
Dooku was cocky
Being cocky does have a point but Jedi and Sith has always trained to stay focus and disciplined and cocky doesn't have to get in the way.

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Originally Posted by Commander Obi-Wan
Plus Sidious gained so much power when almost all the Jedi were eliminated.
Didn't quite get the point why it had some connection to Dooku and Anakin's duel.



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Old 04-11-2006, 03:47 PM   #43
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Well Yoda did have a certain angle to where he could see out of the corner of his eye. Gree should've ordered a Turbo Tank to blow him to bits. Although that didn't work on Quinlan Vos at all


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Old 04-11-2006, 08:24 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by †Saint_Killa†
Was he really strong as yoda. Yoda was a master for 900 years and Anakin wasn't. Anakin was just a jedi for about 10 or more years plus Anakin had 20000 midichlorians and he didn't have soooo much experience as Yoda.
Like I said, he was becoming stronger. Still, things don't happen how they should.

Anyway, Dooku was going to lose to Yoda if he didn't distract him, so he could escape.


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Old 04-19-2006, 05:24 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jomaster
true true,
although this wasn't really a battle i thought it should be mensioned:
the death of Boba Fett i mean in the prequel trilogy we see Jango as this feared and respected bounty hunter that survives endless battles (apart from geonosis of course) and it takes an extremely powerful jedi to kill him. Then we get to ROTJ and,if my memory serves me correctly han solo turns round with a weequay staff and somehow ingnites Boba's jetpack flying him into the sail barge and then down into the sarlacc pit it just seemed to me like a kinda lame way to go for a second generation legendry bounty hunter who is known all over the galaxy
GL killed Boba Fett off like that before he knew Fett became such a popular character. I think he thought Fett was just another henchman.


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Old 09-02-2006, 04:06 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McCusto
Grievous vs. Obi-Wan.

In the books we were led to think that Grievous was this monster war machine. The most feared general by jedi! Then Obi-Wan comes to Utapau, gets in a duel, and cuts off 2 of his hands, like they were nothing! Then the worst part is he died by a blaster. I mean, come on! A blaster? Laaaaaaaaaaaaame!
I must admit I too was surprised by the General's obvious lack of fighting skills in Episode 3. In the Clone Wars mini-series Grievous obliterated 5 Jedi on Hypori without hesitation or fear of being killed. The version of Grievous seen in the movie is totally different than the version in the books and Clone Wars series.

In the Books and Clone Wars series-
A powerful, skilled and obviously fearless warrior without any consideration for his own safety. He was agile in combat and used unorthodox athletic manuevers to defeat his enemies. He also respected the Jedi as warriors and prefered to get his hands dirty in a fight,
"Know that I, General Grievous, am not completly without mercy. I will grant you all a warriors' death. Prepare!" - This quote sums up the character in the Clone Wars series.

In Star Wars Episode 3-
A slimy, cowardly and unscrupulus braggart who relied on Guile and cunning to defeat his enemies and held his own safety as top priority (droid bodyguards constantly at his side). He only faught if he had unfair advantages (four lightsabers) and as soon as any battle started to turn against him he fled like a whipped dog. In hand to hand combat he could have easily crushed Obi-Wan's skull numerous times but instead toyed with him and did not respect him as a threat. When threatened he resorted to petty name-calling. "...Jedi Scum!"

I myself am a Grievous fan, but only of the version seen in the Clone Wars series and books.


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Last edited by Valter; 09-02-2006 at 04:18 AM.
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Old 09-02-2006, 02:10 PM   #47
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Well, first of all, they are cartoons after all. Rember the episode where Mace Windu dispaches of thousands of battle droids single handedly

Not to mention Grievous was wounded by Mace Windu when his rib cage was crushed. Now that has got to affect his performance for the worst.
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Old 09-02-2006, 04:52 PM   #48
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In "Labyrinth of Evil" Mace Windu and General Grievous engage in a lightsaber duel aboard a hover train on Coruscant. At the end of the duel Grievous attacks with his lightsabers swinging toward Windu's neck when Windu abruptly ends the duel with a force push, blowing Grievous off the train. In "Labyrinth of Evil" Windu never crushes Grievous's chest.

It depends on whether you believe the Books or the Cartoon.


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Old 09-02-2006, 06:06 PM   #49
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Well, you we refering to the cartoons, so I gave you an answer accordingly. Quite frankly, I couldn't care less about EU so I didn't read Labyrinth of Evil. I just though the cartoons were cool, but I always viewed them as just that, cartoons. Everything is a cartoon is exaggerated, ans Clone Wars is no exception.

Many characters in the series do incredible stuff, like defeating many foes, surviving high falls, jumping incredible distances, etc. But when you translate that into a movie, you obviously have to tone it down a little. That's most likely what happened with Grievous' abilities.
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Old 09-02-2006, 06:09 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
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Quoted for truth.

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Old 09-03-2006, 01:04 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coupes.
Well, you we refering to the cartoons, so I gave you an answer accordingly. Quite frankly, I couldn't care less about EU so I didn't read Labyrinth of Evil. I just though the cartoons were cool, but I always viewed them as just that, cartoons. Everything is a cartoon is exaggerated, ans Clone Wars is no exception.

Many characters in the series do incredible stuff, like defeating many foes, surviving high falls, jumping incredible distances, etc. But when you translate that into a movie, you obviously have to tone it down a little. That's most likely what happened with Grievous' abilities.
That's true, but then again it all depends on whether or not you count the books and cartoon.


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Old 09-03-2006, 01:01 PM   #52
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Well, Grievous Does seem to be quite a bit more powerful in all EU series, one way or another, and definitely more "honorable" when it comes to granting a warrior's death if possable.

Don't get me wrong he is smart enough to retreat if outgunned as he should be.

I mean, I do think the last Obi/Grevi fight makes Grevi look more like a cocky bastrd than a serious honorable fighter. He should have tried to just finish Obi off rather than toying with him a bit, as we know he can snap his neck quite easily.

While I have no problem with him using his Magnaguards in the fight, considering that he might be wounded/weakened, there is no excuse for dumbness in fights, consider him being a true warrior as stated.
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Old 09-03-2006, 05:25 PM   #53
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despite the coughing, his chest doesn't look "crushed" at all in the movie

Frankly, I accept the portrayal of Grievous in Episode III as the "real Grievous" so I don't need to explain the discrepancies with his behavior in the Clone Wars season 2 finale and season 3 (or the novels or comics for that matter).

His abilities in the cartoon are seriously exaggerated, as are those of the Jedi.


The films are the highest canon and represent the "true reality" of the Star Wars series, so all the rest are interpreted through that lense (at least that's how it is officially).


That said, I enjoyed his portrayal in the Clone Wars cartoon. He seemed a definate threat (though you could tell they were already trying to nerf him in Season 3 to try to prepare for the letdown we'd all see of him in the actual movie this was all hype fodder for), though I thought it was stupid that he had absolutely no force ability. Had he had the Force, I could buy him being so powerful (he was able to leap dozens of feet in the air, and even DODGE the force abilities of Jedi!). But anyway, that's some other character, not the "real Grievous." In my imagination, he had the Force, and he was a mobile droid controller. Now he's just a cyborg general with delusions of grandeur and a few tricks, but that's it.


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Old 09-03-2006, 05:46 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commander Obi-Wan
Those were Clones. Not Droids.
What difference does that make? Jedi are quite mortal in the movies. Whether they're shot up by Clones or by Droids, they die.

Arguing that a Jedi would be able to block the shots of a hundred droids, but not a hundred clones just doesn't fly, sorry!

The video games and the CW cartoon nonewithstanding, of course...


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Old 09-03-2006, 07:02 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Kurgan
Frankly, I accept the portrayal of Grievous in Episode III as the "real Grievous" so I don't need to explain the discrepancies with his behavior in the Clone Wars season 2 finale and season 3 (or the novels or comics for that matter).

His abilities in the cartoon are seriously exaggerated, as are those of the Jedi.


The films are the highest canon and represent the "true reality" of the Star Wars series, so all the rest are interpreted through that lense (at least that's how it is officially).


That said, I enjoyed his portrayal in the Clone Wars cartoon. He seemed a definate threat (though you could tell they were already trying to nerf him in Season 3 to try to prepare for the letdown we'd all see of him in the actual movie this was all hype fodder for), though I thought it was stupid that he had absolutely no force ability. Had he had the Force, I could buy him being so powerful (he was able to leap dozens of feet in the air, and even DODGE the force abilities of Jedi!). But anyway, that's some other character, not the "real Grievous." In my imagination, he had the Force, and he was a mobile droid controller. Now he's just a cyborg general with delusions of grandeur and a few tricks, but that's it.

I suppose the movie did make some improvements on Grievous. I like the new, less metalic voice of Grievous in Episode 3. The persistant coughing also made Grievous more alive and less machine. I actually liked the fact that Grievous did not use force powers, we've never seen a none sith/Jedi character weilding a lightsaber.

Maybe Lucas should have never included Grievous in the cartoon, at least not until he finally established what type of character he wanted Grievous to be.


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Old 09-04-2006, 09:43 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valter
we've never seen a none sith/Jedi character weilding a lightsaber.
Well, except Han Solo, and Luke before he was trained.


There's no reason to assume a non-Jedi couldn't handle a lightsaber in battle, but without the force to allow them to move quickly/see the future to be able to block blaster shots accurately with it and that sort of thing, you'd think more conventional weapons would be more useful (blasters and such).

So the limited nature of the lightsaber as a weapon is made up for by their skill with the force (the usefullness of the lightsaber would be more limited as a weapon in the hands of a non-force user, such as Grievous).

In fact, it's a wonder that Jedi don't carry blasters or other weapons, since they would be more proficient with them than non-Jedi in theory, and there are situations in which they would be useful to the Jedi. Presumably they don't use blasters simply out of tradition and personal taste (Obi-Wan's apparent dislike of blasters as "uncivilized").

Perhaps non-Jedi are forbidden to carry lightsabers by Republican law or something. Or they are simply less practical for non-Jedi to use in battle.

I mean sure, lightsabers have other uses (like as a cutting torch or a makeshift lantern), but it seems the Jedi use them in a ceremonial way (a symbol of their order or tradition or whatever, but so do the Sith) and a kind of snobbery prevents them from using other weapons. They use their traditional weapon and their great skills make up for the deficiencies it would have compared to ranged weapons.

For killing, there are far better weapons in the Star Wars universe, and even for peacekeeping there are better tools (better to stun somebody with the stun setting on a blaster than to cut off their hand, right?).


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Old 09-04-2006, 09:44 PM   #57
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Things i have issues with, are the Duel by 4 master with Sidious, they all should have put up more fight than that. Then theres the super easy droids in EP 1, what the hell, you look at a droid right and it falls apart. And last but not least, why is it that all but a handful of Jedi are killed by the 501st division, then Yoda and Obi wan cut through half of them into the temple. Now for the Original(Best) Trilogy. You'd think that in ANH, han or Luke would at least get injured when 10 Stormtroopers are shooting at them.


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Old 09-04-2006, 10:57 PM   #58
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I agree with you, the "battle" between Sideous and the three Jedi + Mace Windu was pretty awful.

I guess we're supposed to assume that he used the Dark Side to basically just turn off the Force sense of the Jedi in the room, making them absolutely horrible.. and only Mace Windu was able to shrug it off in time to stay alive. Ian McDiarmond actually had the least amount of sword-training of any of the actors on set (don't know if they used a standin, just CG at various points like during his flips). As a result, they had to incorporate his silly style (not that the other styles aren't silly, but his was the most amateurish) into something that was supposed to look dangerous.

It just didn't look very convincing on camera. It shouldn't require fanboy interpretation to make the scene make sense. Either make him an awesome fighter who overwhelms them with pure skill, or make the fight longer so it's at least convincing. If he's supposed to just be paralyzing them with fear so they can't fight, show that...

I agree about the Battle Droids as well. Here we had a potential for a fearsome army. Perhaps Lucas wanted to show us that droids were just silly in combat (but then why create Grievous and the high casualties at Geonosis?) and therefore clones replaced them. The Jedi were shown to be powerful by easily destroying them in Episode I, but perhaps if they had shown them being more successful against non-Jedi, that would boost both their and the Jedi's reputation (rather than making them appear so weak anybody could easily destroy them, making them weaker than normal troops).

The OT stuff is only explained by saying that Vader convinced Tarkin to let the Rebels escape to lead them to their secret base. But remember that this can't have been the original plan, so at the start at least, Luke & co. were just darn lucky/skillful!


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Old 09-08-2006, 05:34 PM   #59
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Well, i admit i've never seen the CW cartoon nor read any books of that era. I know that the cartoon could be greatly exaggerated, but either way from what i know Grievous was hurt pretty badly. That could not only affect him physically, but mentally as well.
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Old 09-08-2006, 07:47 PM   #60
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I think that Mace Window cried like a biaaaaaaaayaaatccccchhhhhhhh! After getting owned by Annakin, it just made me embarrased to watch that. I don't end up hating Annakin, I end up wondering what drugs Samuel L was on for taking part.
Yeah, that battle was a shame.
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Old 09-08-2006, 07:56 PM   #61
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to beat maul obi-wan dabbled in the dark side he used his anger that is why yoda faced palptine instead of obi


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Old 09-10-2006, 03:08 PM   #62
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Has a Light Sider EVER won a saber battle where he didn't "dabble in the dark side" (translation: "get angry") to win?



And yes, the Clone Wars are GREATLY exaggerated. Grievous actually is able to dodge the force pushes and throw objects of Jedi MASTERS and slaughter them with ease. He TOYS with them. He's able to leap dozens of feet in the air and CLING TO THE CEILING... apparently the Jedi can't even sense him until he's right on top of them! That and his speed matches or even excedes again, that of Jedi Masters.

His chest being crushed is in there, but in the movies, supposedly mere minutes after that scene, his chest doesn't look damaged in the least. When did he find time to repair it? Why didn't that act kill him, since it should have crushed his organs as well? (And he doesn't even appear to have actual lungs, just a heart, brain, eyeballs and some "guts"). I could be wrong about that though... Perhaps his robot lungs were damaged.

But actually Lucas always intended the character to be coughing. Apparently the CW guys weren't clued in to this, and they just created the scene to explain the sudden change. That's also why they inserted the scene of Dooku training him and advising him to "run away" from battle sometimes (to try to explain why in the movie he claims to have been "trained in your Jedi Arts by Count Dooku" and acts like a coward repeatedly).

The Jedi in the CW are also exaggerated, Mace Windu destroys an entire ARMY of Super Battle Droids all by himself (when in the Geonosis Arena Jedi were dropping like flies against a fraction of the number of droids). There's lots more examples, but that's why I don't consider them accurate representations of the power levels or abilities of any of these characters in the Star Wars universe at large.

Incidentally, the ROTS novelisation has Mace Windu say something like (regarding Grievous) "I have fought him blade to blade, he's more than a match for most Jedi."

Thankfully that wasn't in the movie. Such an event is never depicted in the CW series OR in the movie (in the cartoon, all he does is leap in there and crush his chest, no saber blows are thrown or landed between them).

The CW Grievous is surely "more than a match for most Jedi" but the movie Grievous? I'd be surprised if he could kill more than Padawans or captured unarmed prisoners. Of course the movie Jedi in ROTS go back and forth from being useless to almighty (compare how Yoda and Obi-Wan SLAUGHTER stormtroopers in large numbers, but other Jedi Masters fall to a fraction of them, but also look at that Padawan, Lucas's son, who takes down quite a few troopers before dying). I'm not sure if Lucas was trying to say that Palpatine somehow "turned off" their force powers for a second or two, making them completely caught off guard (but Yoda, sensing the pain of the other Jedi, was able to snap out of it somehow, and Obi-Wan just got danged lucky) so that a few stray shots could get through or what, but still.


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Old 09-14-2006, 06:57 AM   #63
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Quote:
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Has a Light Sider EVER won a saber battle where he didn't "dabble in the dark side" (translation: "get angry") to win?
Yoda in AOTC, Obi-Wan in ROTS (both vs. Grievous and Anakin)
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Old 09-14-2006, 09:09 AM   #64
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Okay, just checking. I should have qualified that and said "vs. another force user" (otherwise we'd have to count the battles against stormtroopers, Jabba's guards, etc).

Yoda did grimace a few times, and he looked pissed when he threw that lightning, but nobody has ever tried to claim he was "dabbling in the Dark Side" which is surprising, but a fair point!

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Old 09-18-2006, 11:38 AM   #65
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No I think that they are all awsome and it was how it was supposed to be
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