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Old 04-06-2006, 12:15 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
You aren't the only one. I think the fact that we HAVE a fence is ludicrous, and the idea of building an actual wall makes me want to throw up.

Thank you. The idea of building a wall makes bad memories come back up. Berlin anyone?

Sure, it wasn't exactly to stop people coming in, but such walls are just reactionary solutions that just make you look bad and ends up doing nothing. A wall didn't exactly stop smugglers from getting people out of the USSR or out of North Korea. I don't think it'll stop people from getting in.

According to the study posted by rccar, if amnesty was given, it would automatically increase the drain on the federal government. The author claims that it is due to the low level of education of the immigrants and it lowers their skills. He also says that many illegal immigrants are greatly skilled.

This is quite a moot point and I must say the study only offers a rather short sighted vision of everything if not only an aspect or one side of the coin.

Immigrants who are highly skilled are the ones who do not need to resort to illegal ways to enter the US. Often, it'll be companies who seek them out in their home country to bring them back to the US to work. At other times it'll be just regualr folks, fleeing for political reasons but happen to posess a degree in something. They probably represent only the legal immigrants.

Low-level of education is drain on the economy? Well, the US already has a problem with their own citizens who are in the same situation. What happens to them? We try to give them an education. Now, explain to me how we couldn't do the same to the immigrants?
He also says that the drain is largely due to the children born in the US from the immigrants and their automatic citizenship. Can't these children grow up and become good honest US citizen? A bit optimistic I admit, but it is a possibility. Of course, it's going to be over the course of a long period.

I'd like to get back to the race card. Although I'm not too fond of it, it is necessary to mention that it is largely used in Europe when unemployment rates rise. It casts blame on immigrants and makes them scapegoats for the often angry mobs. Strangely, it coincides with the rise of the far-right in many european countries. Just something I wanted to mention.


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Old 04-07-2006, 12:06 AM   #42
Mike Windu
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This has absolutely nothing to do with race.

It's interesting that I had a socratic on illegal immigration and now this pops up...

but anyway, my general opinion is... we need to fix illegal immigration.

and Mexico.

The reasoning behind the flood and Mexodus is that, well.. you've got your family starving on one side... and about 200 ft on the other side is a job and some food...

Problem 1: Illegal Immigration is Mexico's 2nd highest source of income. Right behind oil.

Something's wrong here.

Problem 2: As someone said, immigration process is extremely ridiculous. It took my brothers about 2-3 years each to get here.

Now... let's go back... your family's starving... and you've put in an application form. But so have 500000000000000000000000 other Mexicans. Waiting, waiting, waiting, but to no avail. You've got to do something or else you'll die. And so will your family.

Welcome to America!

Problem 3: Government does nothing to limit corporations on illegal immigrant abuse. As I stated in another thread: Wal-Mart was fined 11 million for hiring illegal immigrants. They even got off easy because they claimed that "they didn't know" and that it was the people they hired that hired these immigrants, not the corporation itself.

Wal-Mart makes 350 billion in sales profits each year. 11 million is a prick on the index finger.

Solution: Higher government control on hiring of illegal immigrants, a logical guest worker program (visas, etc), ease the immigration process, introduce need-based immigration (similar to college processes - give aid to those who need it first.), and fix Mexico. If not amnesty, give immigrants already here who have shown clear intention on getting jobs and good work and have a clear criminal background a visa or something.

That's my opinion for now, but I'm still not to sure if I follow it completely. More revisions may come.




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Old 04-07-2006, 10:47 AM   #43
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It would be in the US's interest to help mexico develop a stronger economy. Just a thought but what about some form of free trade zone between mexico and the US where companies could get tax breaks or something and also use the cheap labour of mexico... with some of the tax going to the US and some to Mexico - and the cheap labour being able to stay in mexico?

Sounds to me like there are two "amnesty" plans. The republicans want everyone to leave and then re-apply. The democrats want those that are here to pay a fine and back-taxes and then be allowed to stay.

The second seems more practical. And i suppose you could set requirements like they have to have worked or not committed any crime.

It seems to me that a lot of these people would be admitted anyway under a sensible, FAST worker scheme - so it makes sense to let them stay and make that official providing there are no public interest reasons to not want someone.



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Old 04-07-2006, 03:35 PM   #44
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There's no realistic way to ship 8 million people out of the country overnight and have them apply for citizenship.

I don't care for them paying a fine, as most illegal immigrants are working hard enough as is.




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Old 04-09-2006, 02:05 AM   #45
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True there is no fast way to ship 8 million people out. But as far as I know that?s not what the current immigration bill calls for, and all Hispanics are protesting that bill right now.

@ET
I never said that we do not benefit from the illegal workforce. But just because it makes it easy for us does not make it right. If you HAD to have money and I was going to pay you 5 dollars an hour for hard labor does that make it okay just cause you need the money? No. I would still be cheating you.

And by the way. If you give them amnesty and make them citizens. Guess what happens!?!? They are now American citizens and entitled to all the rights and privileges that we are! No more cheap labor! And if you leave them here they will keep on sucking off the government. To those that say that people come across because their kids are starving I agree, it?s sad.
But there was a reason we require people to apply to come into the country. It?s so that the economy can adjust.
Now take all the numbers mentioned and more and think about it.

11 million people enter the country illegally in 10 years! They take numerous government programs. And they send a large amount of money back to Mexico. Then in the cities that were just fine, suddenly they have to expand at a crazy big rate. Public schools have to expand to pay for their kids to go to school. Roads have to be built. Hospitals have to give free health care.

Those are a few down sides.

Well on the up side... we get cheap labor. Where we cheat people that hardly have a high school education and don't speak English to do work for a fraction of the cost.

If the Mexican government spent more time fixing its problems and less time *****ing at the U.S. for not putting water stations up in the Arizona desert for illegals then they might have less of a problem

Switching tracks?

Why did the south want to keep its slaves? Because it would be extremely hard to stay afloat if you have to pay a whole bunch of people for their place.

Why do we want cheap labor? Because it would be extremely hard to stay afloat if we have to pay normal wages to these people!

Again does that make it okay? Nope.

Oh yeah another problem I just remembered. (What?s new?)

When an immigrant comes here, and goes into business for himself (lets say air conditioning and electrical) they do not pay for any of the licenses or fees that regular self employed people do (They also do not follow the air conditioning and electrical codes that make it where anyone that has the standard schooling can fix it easy, these codes also help prevent building fires and keep equipment from failing as fast).
These fees are pretty hefty. So what happens? The person that plays by the rules and spent all that money on schooling goes under. While the guy that skips out stays in business. And here you can?t say that these are jobs that no one in America wants, lots of people do these jobs and are very happy (cough)
And no one would say driving professionals out of business with cheap and shoddy work is good.
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Old 04-09-2006, 04:32 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe©
Why did the south want to keep its slaves? Because it would be extremely hard to stay afloat if you have to pay a whole bunch of people for their place.

So that's why slavery should still be legal?


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Old 04-09-2006, 05:36 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
So that's why slavery should still be legal?
The South was s*** for many, many years after the US Civil War that (technically) freed the slaves. I'm sure some people at that point wished it was still legal. I don't think Joe© was saying he wished slavery was still legal (I hope).

In any case, that's not that great of a comparison, the South's economy at the time was reliant on farming, whereas the US's economy now isn't reliant on the jobs illegal immigrants have. In actuality, I'd say the increased number of jobs here in the US for US citizens may actually cancel out any losses Wal-Mart companies here may suffer as a result of paying their employees more.



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Old 04-10-2006, 12:09 AM   #48
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I was not saying that slavery should be legal (off topic but claifying) I was simply saying that there we have two sources of labor, free/cheap. Many people were/are willing to overlook the fact that the workers are being exploited because it keeps prices down.

Like I said. Its still wrong.
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Old 04-10-2006, 12:30 AM   #49
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You misconstrue the argument. No one's said that we should continue to exploit them.

We all know that using people without proper pay is wrong.




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Old 04-11-2006, 12:19 AM   #50
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Nope no one said that. But by saying we need the labor, that is refusing to do anything about the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
You're clearly fooling yourself if you don't think that YOU are benefiting directly from the low wages paid to those people doing those jobs. If we eliminated the illegal immigrant work force we can expect to see a drastic increase in the cost of almost EVERYTHING.
Implying what? We should keep paying them low wages and preventing them from becoming more than a permanent underclass?

This is what my cheap labor argument was about for the most part. We know its wrong but are not doing anything about BECAUSE of the fact that we are benefiting.

I hate to only criticize so I will say what I think needs to be done (like anyone cares)

First problem is to fix the boarder. There is no point to deporting people if the boarder is not fixed. They will just keep coming (I heard about one guy that had crossed 20+ times) anyway, hire more boarder security, cameras, fences, walls. Whatever it takes to slow them down.

Then start deporting, its not pretty, its not nice, but we have to wake up and see, THEY BROKE THE LAW! what happens when I I break the law? I go to jail. What happens when they break the law? They get government handouts! Do I suck off government programs? Nope. But hell, my taxes are still going up. Do they suck off government programs? Yes, And guess what? they don't even pay taxes! Double standard eh?
Anyway back to deporting, It won't be fast. It would not be possible to deport all the people, and I think it would be bad to take them all away anyway, just enough to ease the economy and discourage people from coming across.

Start making sure they get good wages. Oh darn we are going to have to pay a lot for our lettuce, well that sucks, but oh well. The moral highground is what counts hmmmm? And I'm sure they can feed their familles with more money eh?
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