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Old 03-30-2006, 10:01 AM   #41
Darth Macca
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
Well, not my opinion, but the opinion of George Lucas, yes...
TK, you have questioned throughout if I have any proof of my opinion, I don't have proof and you will be very lucky to find someone who has. I honestly do think Plageuis created Anakin - but you struggle to accept my opinion. So I will ask you ... unless you have solid proof that Anakin was not created by Plageuis I will think otherwise.


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Old 03-30-2006, 04:29 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Darth Macca
I honestly do think Plageuis created Anakin - but you struggle to accept my opinion.
Because your opinion conflicts with everything that was shown in the movies.

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Originally Posted by Darth Macca
So I will ask you ... unless you have solid proof that Anakin was not created by Plageuis I will think otherwise.
The fact that Anakin was the Chosen One just as the prophecy said is as solid proof as anyone would need.

The opinion of the Sith creating Anakin has no basis, no evidence. It's something that was suggested by the most evil liar, the devil of the galaxy. And yet you want to believe it. Sigh.
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Old 03-30-2006, 04:42 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
Because your opinion conflicts with everything that was shown in the movies.



The fact that Anakin was the Chosen One just as the prophecy said is as solid proof as anyone would need.

The opinion of the Sith creating Anakin has no basis, no evidence. It's something that was suggested by the most evil liar, the devil of the galaxy. And yet you want to believe it. Sigh.
You keep on dwelling on the prophecy and the Chosen One, but that doesn't mean to say he couldn't have been created by Plageuis. You tell me Anakin was created by the force - there are two sides to the force; Light & Dark. Never has anyone (not even Lucas) come out and said that the Dark side of the force didn't create Anakin.

I know my opinion of the Sith creating Anakin has no basis or no evidence (as I have already stated) ... but in my eyes it makes a lot of sense. It's a point of view that has been speculated for a long time, I don't see any reason why it cannot be true. Show me some facts that show that Plageuis didn't create Anakin, then I'll start to believe that Palpatine was lying.
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Old 03-30-2006, 05:21 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Darth Macca
You keep on dwelling on the prophecy and the Chosen One, but that doesn't mean to say he couldn't have been created by Plageuis.
The prophecy doesn't say that someone will come and create the Chosen One using the Force... it says that the Force itself will create the Chosen One.

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Originally Posted by Darth Macca
You tell me Anakin was created by the force - there are two sides to the force; Light & Dark. Never has anyone (not even Lucas) come out and said that the Dark side of the force didn't create Anakin.
This seems to be irrelivant. The Force itself created Anakin, not the light or dark side. The Force isn't some spiritual being like a god that has an angel sitting on one shoulder and a devil sitting on the other. It's a single entity that has its own will. The will of the individual, however, determines if they're going to follow the path of the light side, or fall to the dark side.

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Originally Posted by Darth Macca
Show me some facts that show that Plageuis didn't create Anakin,
Hey, the burden of proof is on you. It's just like how the burden of proof would be on me if I said that the sun was made of cheese. I can't just say hey, I think the sun is made of cheese and it's my opinion and it makes sense, it is yellow after all. The burden of proof would be on me to offer some evidence that the sun is made of cheese. And it being yellow isn't enough.

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Originally Posted by Darth Macca
then I'll start to believe that Palpatine was lying.
So would you say that Sidious is a reliable source? That he's not a liar? I can't recall a single time he actually told the truth. He's never told the truth on ANYTHING, so why would you think he's telling the truth in this one case? He was making **** up so that Anakin would go with him. If you think he actually cared about revealing the truth, then you need to go watch the movies again.

Remember how he told Anakin that he had the power to cheat death? That was in the same scene where he told Anakin that Plagueis could create life using the Force.

Oh yeah, then a scene later he told Anakin that he didn't have the power and that they'd have to work together to get it. WHY do you want to think that he's telling the truth? Had it not been for Sidious BS'ing Anakin, we wouldn't even be discussing this.
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Old 03-30-2006, 10:21 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
Well, not my opinion, but the opinion of George Lucas, yes...
So where is the quote from George Lucas? If you say you are presenting the opinion of somebody, you need to present a quote to back it up. Otherwise, just admit that what you are presenting is your opinion.

When you get to college, you will learn about a literary device called inference. Simply put, inference is the presentation of just enough facts to allow the reader to come to the truth on his own. This is what Lucas is using here. He doesn't want to insult our intelligence by spoon-feeding us every little detail. I, for one, prefer when an author allows me to exercise my thinking. Plus, we wouldn't get to engage in this friendly exchange of ideas.


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Old 03-30-2006, 10:54 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
So where is the quote from George Lucas? If you say you are presenting the opinion of somebody, you need to present a quote to back it up. Otherwise, just admit that what you are presenting is your opinion.
He has said so in numerous interviews. If you have the RotS DVD (as any good Star Wars fan should), you can watch one of the interviews where he talks about how Anakin is the Chosen One and all.
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Old 03-30-2006, 10:59 PM   #47
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Stop bickering, plz. I hate it when people get all pretentious and huffy. Makes me wanna put them on time-outs.




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Old 03-30-2006, 11:10 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
He has said so in numerous interviews. If you have the RotS DVD (as any good Star Wars fan should), you can watch one of the interviews where he talks about how Anakin is the Chosen One and all.
First, don't try to tell me how to be a good Star Wars fan. I could not begin to count the number of times I saw the OT movies before you were even born.

Second, I agree with you that Anakin is the Chosen one. However, that does not mean he was not the result of Plagueis/Sidious manipulating the midi-chlorians to create a child born of the Force. Yes, the Force created Anakin: the Force as the midi-chlorians in Shmi Skywalker being manipulated by Plagueis/ Sidious.


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Old 03-30-2006, 11:14 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
First, don't try to tell me how to be a good Star Wars fan. I could not begin to count the number of times I saw the OT movies before you were even born.
...That was a joke, man.

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Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
However, that does not mean he was not the result of Plagueis/Sidious manipulating the midi-chlorians to create a child born of the Force. Yes, the Force created Anakin: the Force as the midi-chlorians in Shmi Skywalker being manipulated by Plagueis/ Sidious.
The prophecy implies that the Chosen One comes when the Force wills it, not when an individual does. Again, there is not a shred of evidence to suggest that anyone manipulated midichlorians to create Anakin. Where are you getting the information that Plagueis or Sidious created Anakin?
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Old 03-30-2006, 11:19 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
The prophecy implies that the Chosen One comes when the Force wills it, not when an individual does. Again, there is not a shred of evidence to suggest that anyone manipulated midichlorians to create Anakin. Where are you getting the information that Plagueis or Sidious created Anakin?
He has a "reliable" informant in his butt. This informant is so reliable you could say he's anal retentive in his work
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Old 03-30-2006, 11:25 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
Where are you getting the information that Plagueis or Sidious created Anakin?
Go to post #94 in this thread


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Old 03-30-2006, 11:34 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
Go to post #94 in this thread
Again, as I've said, the movies as well as George Lucas triumph the EU when there is conflict.
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Old 03-31-2006, 10:14 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
Again, as I've said, the movies as well as George Lucas triumph the EU when there is conflict.
Well, as I've said, show me where the movies and/or George Lucas say anything to trump the idea of Plagueis/Sidious causing the midi-chlorians to create Anakin. Give me a direct quote, and I will believe it. Until you can do that, everything you say is just your opinion, and, frankly, I will believe the published source over the opinion of a high school kid.


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Old 03-31-2006, 10:47 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
Well, as I've said, show me where the movies and/or George Lucas say anything to trump the idea of Plagueis/Sidious causing the midi-chlorians to create Anakin.
Anakin is the Chosen One... meaning the Force created him... having anyone else create him goes against everything in the movies. You are basing your opinion on a lie made up by the biggest liar in the galaxy.

I would like this question answered specifically: why do you want to believe Sidious? Why do you want to believe what the devil of the galaxy is telling? You know, Anakin wanted to believe what Sidious was telling. And you see where that got him right??

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Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
Give me a direct quote, and I will believe it.
Click the link Niner posted.

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Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
and, frankly, I will believe the published source over the opinion of a high school kid.
How do you know I'm in high school? You checked out my profile? You know, I checked out your profile too, and I didn't see your birthday displayed.

I must point out that taking cheap-shots doesn't help this discussion. I've never used a personal attack such as that against anyone in a debate, so for the sake of keeping this thread civil, I'd discourage using such a tactic to discredit me...
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Old 03-31-2006, 11:44 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
Anakin is the Chosen One... meaning the Force created him...
I do not dispute that Anakin was the Chosen One. I do not dispute that the Force created him. I simply believe the Force was aided by Plagueis and/or Sidious. If you want to believe the Force was responsible for Anakin's creation, why is it so hard to believe the Force was acting through the Sith? In the book of Exodus, God worked through Pharoah's evil deeds to accomplish His plan of bringing the Hebrews out of Egypt. In doing what he thought would preserve his empire, Pharoah actually caused his own destruction.

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I would like this question answered specifically: why do you want to believe Sidious? Why do you want to believe what the devil of the galaxy is telling? You know, Anakin wanted to believe what Sidious was telling. And you see where that got him right??
I do not think Sidious was lying in this instance. Even the most evil person will tell the truth when it suits his purposes. In this case the truth (as I see it) suited his purposes better than a lie would.

The biggest reason I choose to believe Anakin was created by the Force as guided by the Sith is that I appreciate the irony of the situation. They thought Anakin would become the strongest Sith ever, only to have him bring about their destruction. Whether you choose to believe it or not, you have to admit it would bring a sweet irony to the Prophecy.

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Click the link Niner posted.
Nothing of note there.

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How do you know I'm in high school? You checked out my profile? You know, I checked out your profile too, and I didn't see your birthday displayed.
And you won't. I deliberately avoid putting any personally identifiable information on the web because I am in the Army and because I have children to protect. I would recommend you not put your complete birthday in your profile, either.

Quote:
I must point out that taking cheap-shots doesn't help this discussion. I've never used a personal attack such as that against anyone in a debate, so for the sake of keeping this thread civil, I'd discourage using such a tactic to discredit me...
Point taken. I apologize.


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Old 04-01-2006, 12:01 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
I simply believe the Force was aided by Plagueis and/or Sidious.
So if Plagueis never decided to learn about how to influence midichlorians, the prophecy never would have come true? The Chosen One never would have come and the Force would never be brought to balance?

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Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
I do not think Sidious was lying in this instance. Even the most evil person will tell the truth when it suits his purposes. In this case the truth (as I see it) suited his purposes better than a lie would.
But he was lying about the ability to save life, which he said he had in the very same discussion he had when he said Plagueis could influence midichlorians. Sidious was making whatever up that he could to get Anakin on his side. Why is it that the ONLY thing that he EVER says that's not a lie is the single sentence he spoke that can be used to justify the reasoning for Anakin to be a demon spawn?

I, for one, wouldn't trust the devil on anything he says.

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Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
The biggest reason I choose to believe Anakin was created by the Force as guided by the Sith is that I appreciate the irony of the situation. They thought Anakin would become the strongest Sith ever, only to have him bring about their destruction. Whether you choose to believe it or not, you have to admit it would bring a sweet irony to the Prophecy.
I admit that sounds good and I would have rather had that actually been the prophecy, that the Sith would bring about their own destruction. But that's simply not what the prophecy of the Chosen One says.

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Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
Nothing of note there.
It's just the quotes of George Lucas, but since you don't dispute Anakin's status as the Chosen One (as many of the people who argue for Plagueis or Sidious to be Anakin's father do), then never mind.

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Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
And you won't. I deliberately avoid putting any personally identifiable information on the web because I am in the Army and because I have children to protect. I would recommend you not put your complete birthday in your profile, either.
Well, you're putting out your IP address by visiting this site, and that's the most personally-identifiable information you could put besides your name and address.
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Old 04-01-2006, 01:35 AM   #57
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So if Plagueis never decided to learn about how to influence midichlorians, the prophecy never would have come true? The Chosen One never would have come and the Force would never be brought to balance?
Though Plagueis made the choice of his own free will, the Force knew in advance what his choice would be. That is how all prophecy is made. It's just like the prophecies regarding the birth of Jesus. If Ceasar Augustus had not called for the census, Jesus would not have been born in Bethlehem. God, being omniscient, knew this would happen, and so he lead Micah to make his prophecy about Jesus being born there.
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But he was lying about the ability to save life, which he said he had in the very same discussion he had when he said Plagueis could influence midichlorians. Sidious was making whatever up that he could to get Anakin on his side. Why is it that the ONLY thing that he EVER says that's not a lie is the single sentence he spoke that can be used to justify the reasoning for Anakin to be a demon spawn? I, for one, wouldn't trust the devil on anything he says.
I am not so sure he was lying about being able to prevent death. He may have been lying when he recanted. There are two possibilities:

1) Sidious did not know how to manipulate midi-chlorians at all. He just lied to Anakin to rope him in. Once he had converted him, he told the truth.

2) Sidious did know how to manipulate midi-chlorians. He used this truth to rope Anakin in. Once he had him converted, he lied.

He had to be lying at some point and telling the truth at some point. I think it is much more in keeping with his character to use the truth to get Anakin into his fold, then pull the rug out from under him. If he was unable to manipulate the midi-chlorians, what reason would he have to reveal the truth after Anakin's coversion? However, there is plenty of reason to lie to him after his conversion. Sidious would not want Anakin pursuing his quest of keeping Padme alive. He wanted Anakin's undivided allegiance. As long as Padme was alive, he would never have that.



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I admit that sounds good and I would have rather had that actually been the prophecy, that the Sith would bring about their own destruction. But that's simply not what the prophecy of the Chosen One says.
The prophecy does not say one way or the other. I think we should both admit that you and I will always have different views on this. You choose to interpret the prophecy literally; I choose to make my own inferences. Neither of us can prove our view or disprove the other.


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Old 04-01-2006, 11:50 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
He had to be lying at some point and telling the truth at some point.
Well, he didn't have to be telling the truth at any time. It all could have been a lie as I'm saying.

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Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
The prophecy does not say one way or the other. I think we should both admit that you and I will always have different views on this. You choose to interpret the prophecy literally; I choose to make my own inferences. Neither of us can prove our view or disprove the other.
That's something we can agree on.

I must say you have articulated the argument for the Sith creation of Anakin better than anyone I've read.
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Old 04-01-2006, 04:08 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
Well, he didn't have to be telling the truth at any time. It all could have been a lie as I'm saying.
He said one thing, then said the opposite. One of those times he had to be telling the truth. Unless you want to say he only hinted he might be able to help Anakin save Padme, which I could accept, as well.
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I must say you have articulated the argument for the Sith creation of Anakin better than anyone I've read.
Thank you. Hey, I have to put all those years in school to work somehow.


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Old 04-03-2006, 02:50 PM   #60
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Of those that believe Plageuis created Anakin, can you guys answer the following for me:
  • If Plageuis did create Anakin through whatever means, why he would do so with a slave woman in a remote world outside the boundries of the Republic?
  • Why didn't he create him in a situation he had much more control over, like in his lair or something?
  • Why wasn't such a valuable mother and son protected from interference (i.e. A Jedi Master walking right up to him and taking him under his protection and delivering him to the Jedi Order)?
  • Why would he allow him to be a pod racer? Sure he is talented, but why put him into such a dangerous situation where he could be easily killed?
  • Why would a Sith Lord create a being that he must have known would be the Chosen One and destined to destroy his kind? Isn't kind of indirect suicide?
It just doesn't make any sense to me.

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Old 04-03-2006, 03:03 PM   #61
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Of those that believe Plageuis created Anakin, can you guys answer the following for me:
  • If Plageuis did create Anakin through whatever means, why he would do so with a slave woman in a remote world outside the boundries of the Republic?
  • Why didn't he create him in a situation he had much more control over, like in his lair or something?
  • Why wasn't such a valuable mother and son protected from interference (i.e. A Jedi Master walking right up to him and taking him under his protection and delivering him to the Jedi Order)?
  • Why would he allow him to be a pod racer? Sure he is talented, but why put him into such a dangerous situation where he could be easily killed?
  • Why would a Sith Lord create a being that he must have known would be the Chosen One and destined to destroy his kind? Isn't kind of indirect suicide?
It just doesn't make any sense to me.
Plagieus and Sidious most likely did some sort of Sith magik hoping it would bring the Chosen One to life but they'd had to wait for him to actually show himself?

Im sure this sort of thing has been used it lots of fantasy plots?



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Old 04-03-2006, 04:14 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Darth_Terros
Plagieus and Sidious most likely did some sort of Sith magik hoping it would bring the Chosen One to life but they'd had to wait for him to actually show himself show himself?
I'm sorry but I can't understand what you said.

From what I can understand, you're saying that they intended to create the Chosen One. Why would they intend to create someone who is destined to destroy the Sith?
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Old 04-03-2006, 04:23 PM   #63
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I'm sorry but I can't understand what you said.

From what I can understand, you're saying that they intended to create the Chosen One. Why would they intend to create someone who is destined to destroy the Sith?
The Sith have their own version of the chosen one.

The Sith'ari

Anyway i just used to chosen one as a term for someone created through the force and is strong in its use.


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Old 04-03-2006, 04:30 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Darth_Terros
The Sith have their own version of the chosen one.

The Sith'ari

Anyway i just used to chosen one as a term for someone created through the force and is strong in its use.
Yes, I know that. But the prophecy of the Sith'ari just says that he would come. Not that the Sith would create him. But that he would just come.
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Old 04-03-2006, 04:35 PM   #65
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Yes, I know that. But the prophecy of the Sith'ari just says that he would come. Not that the Sith would create him. But that he would just come.
So the prohecy of the jedi chosen one never said he would be created by sith?

obviously plagiues and sidious wanted to force the prophecies into happning sooner by trying to use sith magik to bring it about.

Seriously its not that hard to grasp what i ment its really really basic stuff.


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Old 04-03-2006, 04:40 PM   #66
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So the prohecy of the jedi chosen one never said he would be created by sith?
It doesn't say that. It says what the Sith'ari prophecy says... that he would just come. It's basically like the story of Jesus... but replace God with the Force and Jesus with Anakin. I mean, there weren't some people down on Earth using magic to create the messiah.

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obviously plagiues and sidious wanted to force the prophecies into happning sooner by trying to use sith magik to bring it about.
...Well, it's possible that's what they intended, but you can't force a prophecy. It just happens... otherwise it's not a prophecy.
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Old 04-03-2006, 04:52 PM   #67
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Your really not getting this are you? lol

Like i said it really is incredibly simple

Basically MAYBE Sidious and his master had heard about the Prophecy of the Sith'ari now with the knowledge of the darkside they had, so they decided to see if they could make this prophecy come true by thier own unnatural knowledge,

So after they did what ever they did somewhere in the galaxy they managed to create this being born of the Darkside of force the only they dont really know where so had to wait for him to show himself.

Sadly the Jedi found this kid first and took him to be their own version of the Chosen one.

Its only very loosely like the story of jesus as in the story of jesus there wasnt two powers waiting for their chosen one to show up and of course there wasnt people on earth using magic to bring him alive because MAGIC ISNT REAL.



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Old 04-03-2006, 05:16 PM   #68
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Your really not getting this are you? lol
I get what you're saying (after deciphering your broken english), but the point of a prophecy is that it comes true due to the divine, not the actions of people. If something happens due to what people do (Sidious/Plagueis creating Anakin), it's not a prophecy anymore... it's only a prediction.
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Old 04-03-2006, 05:33 PM   #69
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Broken english?

Oh forget it i have nothing else to say on the matter of Anakin being the chosen one



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Old 04-03-2006, 05:59 PM   #70
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Broken english?
I apologize if english isn't your first language, but it's difficult to read english that lacks grammar and punctuation. No offense intended, it's just hard for me to understand.
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Old 04-03-2006, 06:27 PM   #71
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English is his first language and his writing is perfectly understandable.



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Old 04-03-2006, 06:37 PM   #72
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English is his first language and his writing is perfectly understandable.
Well, this part confused me the most...

"So after they did what ever they did somewhere in the galaxy they managed to create this being born of the Darkside of force the only they dont really know where so had to wait for him to show himself."
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Old 04-04-2006, 02:13 AM   #73
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"So after they did what ever they did somewhere in the galaxy they managed to create this being born of the Darkside of the force the only problem they dont really know where so had to wait for him to show himself."

ok my fault i missed out a couple of words lol

it was late and i was tired still didnt take much brain power to fill in the gaps.


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Old 04-04-2006, 08:01 AM   #74
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it was late and i was tired still didnt take much brain power to fill in the gaps.
Gotcha. I've been there!

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Old 04-04-2006, 10:57 AM   #75
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Plagieus and Sidious most likely did some sort of Sith magik hoping it would bring the Chosen One to life but they'd had to wait for him to actually show himself?
Why wouldn't they? Would they just forget about the whole thing and move onto something else?

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So the prohecy of the jedi chosen one never said he would be created by sith?
The prophecy says the Chosen One states that he/she will be created by the Force and concieved by the midiclorians.

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obviously plagiues and sidious wanted to force the prophecies into happning sooner by trying to use sith magik to bring it about.
But why?

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Old 04-04-2006, 11:30 AM   #76
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Why wouldn't they? Would they just forget about the whole thing and move onto something else?
Didnt say they forgot about it did i? just said they didnt know where this child would turn up look im not saying this is what happened im just using what normally happens in fantasy stories and StarWars is a fantasy story.

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The prophecy says the Chosen One states that he/she will be created by the Force and concieved by the midiclorians.
I know what the prophecy is.

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But why?
Did you watch episode 3?

With the chosen one on their side it ment they'd be able to finally destroy the Jedi and rule the galaxy as seen in ROTS.


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Old 04-04-2006, 01:16 PM   #77
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Didnt say they forgot about it did i? just said they didnt know where this child would turn up look im not saying this is what happened im just using what normally happens in fantasy stories and StarWars is a fantasy story.
Is that all you are basis this theory on?

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Did you watch episode 3?
Yeah. Did you?

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With the chosen one on their side it ment they'd be able to finally destroy the Jedi and rule the galaxy as seen in ROTS.
I'll say it again. Why would the Sith want to bring about a prophecy that fortells their destruction?

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Old 04-04-2006, 02:24 PM   #78
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This Sithari thing sounds like some crap some EU fanboy came up with after TPM to try to cast Palpatine as some kind of antichrist figure to even further confuse the theological overtones of the whole anakin/chosen one thing. Am I right?

Let somebody put forth where this supposed "sith prophecy" is really stated, and if you say wiki, I'm going to clonk some noggins together!


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Old 04-04-2006, 03:00 PM   #79
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I'll say it again. Why would the Sith want to bring about a prophecy that fortells their destruction?
Who knows ask lucas he came up with the crap that anakin came from the midiclorians and might've been created by plaigues and sidious i was just trying to make sense of the stupidity of it by putting a theory out there.

Anyway its not the jedi's version of the chosen they where trying to create but the sith version.

And the Sith'ari thing came from the knights of the old republic game.

Yuthura Ban - That is our ideal at any rate. It is said in Sith legend that the Sith'ari, the perfect being will one day lead us but perhaps that is just a legend.


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Old 04-04-2006, 04:12 PM   #80
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Let somebody put forth where this supposed "sith prophecy" is really stated, and if you say wiki, I'm going to clonk some noggins together!
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