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Old 04-13-2006, 07:53 PM   #1
Lord Pickle
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What's with Rebellion?

When people say that they are disappointed many say they expected EaW to be like Rebellion. What is so good about Rebellion? Gamespot gave it a 4.5, I repeat a 4.5. That's a failing mark a damn low mark and out of the other 11 reviewers listed it got an average of 5.3 with the highest being 7 and then 6.8 then plunging to a five. I am not trolling any SW:R fans but when few critics like the game you like it makes me wonder about how good it really is.
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Old 04-13-2006, 08:08 PM   #2
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Personally I haven't played rebellion but from what I gather it is much more strategy based where EaW is, well, more point and click.


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Old 04-13-2006, 08:31 PM   #3
Jan Gaarni
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EaW and Rebellion put into one, would blow the 2 out of the water, I'm convinced of it.

Anyway, what Rebellion lacked in terms of grafics and missing ground battles (controlled ground battles like in EaW that is) it more than compensats for with more strategy than EaW. There were research that had to be done by assigning certain minor characters (and sometimes major aswell), you could assign the characters to either Commander, Admiral, or General in your fleet depending on the character, there were maximum of 200 planets to conquor, you could take over planets either by force or use diplomacy, you could capture, interupt, assassinate your opponments minor chars/major chars/special units which are on missions or on planets you know they are, build ships fighters and assign fighters to specific ships like star destroyers, calamary cruisers, etc., create as many seperate fleets you wanted aswell as naming said fleets or even each individual starship (but not fighters), place troops on ships, and so on and so forth.

Personally I thought, and still think, that Rebellion is a fine game, despite its very disappointing grafics, even at the time it came out.




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Old 04-13-2006, 08:51 PM   #4
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I agree. Sure, EaW tactical battles utterly destroy Rebellion's, but it was nice to see an entire sector of planets fall to your side becasue of a bit of good diplomacy. Or see uprisings on your own planets because you destroyed 9 Outer Rim sectors with the Death Star (I did this because I was so frustrated trying to find the Rebels' moveable headquarters ) The only thing I hated about Rebellion was the maintenance costs; I do not miss that.
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Old 04-13-2006, 09:24 PM   #5
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Rebellion was just awesome. So long as you stuck with the autoresolve for tactical space battles.

You could do orbital bombardments as well. All in all it was a massive campaign.

If we could have all the options of Rebellion in terms of characters, reasearch, and diplomacy, along with the tactical battles of EaW, the game would be unstoppable.


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Old 04-13-2006, 10:09 PM   #6
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SW:R is imo one of the best games of all time, its one of the first games i install on any of my computers after a reformat...

and thats why im trying to work out a rebellion mod for eaw, slowly...
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Old 04-13-2006, 11:32 PM   #7
DarthMuffin
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Rebellion is the most underrated game I have ever played.

Yes, most reviewers completely trashed it. Why? Because they did not play enough before reviewing. It takes time to master all of the gameplay aspects of Rebellion, and reviews must be released at most a week after release.

When you play it for the first time, you say : "Right. It's not bad, but not terribly good either" If you actually take the time to go through the manual and play an easy comp to get a hang on the gameplay, Rebellion becomes an extremely enjoyable game.

The two sides are completely unique (impressive for the time it was released) and while the graphics are an insult to any computer, old or new, the space battles are decent. In any way, the game really focuses on the large scale strategy rather than on tactical battles.

If EaW had half of Rebellion's gameplay features, the game would be awesome. Currently, the galactic mode in EaW is *extremely* shallow. Give it the diplomatic and missions-based gameplay of Rebellion and you increase the game's depth by a ten fold.


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Old 04-13-2006, 11:38 PM   #8
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So the problem with EaW is a lack of strategic depth.

I agree but it seems unlikely that things can change too much in the near term. I'm not one of those bitter people who say it is because Petro is only interested in money or an equally dismissive idea.

There are only so many things you can do with a mod. I asked the guys at Star Wars: Legacy of War, that is going to be a sweeeet mod, about persistent damage and apparently it is part of the core engine so they can't put it it. Same thing with hypering out individual units so I expect there will be other features deined in this way.

I just hope that Petro really listens to the community, they seem pretty good I see Delphi posting at Petro's forum a fair bit, and makes an expansion with some strategic depth to it.
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Old 04-14-2006, 01:21 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Pickle
When people say that they are disappointed many say they expected EaW to be like Rebellion. What is so good about Rebellion? Gamespot gave it a 4.5, I repeat a 4.5. That's a failing mark a damn low mark and out of the other 11 reviewers listed it got an average of 5.3 with the highest being 7 and then 6.8 then plunging to a five. I am not trolling any SW:R fans but when few critics like the game you like it makes me wonder about how good it really is.
Two words is my guess. BAD GRAPHICS! What else do people think about these days and are obsessed with? GRAPHICS! They sometimes forget about the true gameplay.


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Old 04-14-2006, 01:38 AM   #10
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Rebellion had a lot of depth, yes, but it really tried to do too much at once. It got REALLY micromanagey and it became a chore to manage your forces on a 200-planet map when each planet had three facilities clamoring for attention. Allowing players to appoint the droids to do some of the more menial tasks alleviated the issue somewhat, but they never did quite what I wanted them to or what I thought they would. Two things dragged Rebellion down for me: the awful interface, and the information overload.

I love how EaW accomplishes most galactic tasks with a single click or a drag-drop. However, I do wish the galactic map had more options, especially where fleets are concerned. Having a special unit in my fleet (like an Interdictor) ought to allow my fleet to do special things. In galactic mode, campaigns really ought to last much longer, giving units some longevity, making planetary conquests seem more weighty, and generally making the whole game seem more epic and involved. Other than these few points, I think EaW is superior to Rebellion.

(While the diplomacy was interesting in Rebellion, Empire at War is a war game. I'm happy to grant it that status and let diplomacy be a non-factor.)


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Old 04-14-2006, 02:58 AM   #11
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Hmmm...Rebellion sounds a lot like 'Star Trek: Birth of the Federation'. I wonder if they used the same engine?


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Old 04-14-2006, 06:25 AM   #12
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Rebellion was the very first PC game I purchased and the ONLY reason why I bought a PC! It was the most underrated game of all time. Unlike EaW, Rebellion had a huge learning curve but once you mastered that, the game was unbeatable. It was a true strategy game.

A trick I used to do when I was the Empire was to set a 'trap' much like in ROTJ. Players could send spies to check out planet information before attack. Travelling time between planets was critical to the success of attacks.

If I was the Empire, I would place the Emperor on Coruscant with just a small defence force , but my main fleet would be just 2 days travel. Once I checked to see if my opponent has sent a fleet to attack me, I would then move my fleet across to Coruscant, so when the Rebels came out of hyperspace, my entire fleet would be waiting.

One of my favourite other tricks would be to send a small sabotage force to take out the Death Stars shield, so I could attack it when my fleet arrived. How brilliant?! Didnt always work of course because other factors could detect your missions but it was just brilliant.

From what I have read around the forums, elements are there for diplomacy so its something that the Modders can sink their teeth into. Remember, EaW wasnt pushed as a strategy game and petroglyph have made it extremely moddable so there is a lot more fun to come!

Petroglyph were all handed Rebellion just after they signed up to do EaW. Although I do wish EaW had that little extra in terms of strategy but that was Rebellions biggest shortcomings - in terms of sales. The community was brilliant (some 300 at its peak) but with gamers losing interest in pure strategy games its an expensive mistake to make.

Publishers just cant afford to make a brilliant game that doesnt sell. Look at ' The Movies' nice game but it just didnt sell, despite massive Marketing campaigns to push it.

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Old 04-14-2006, 08:39 AM   #13
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I agree with you Dmuk. But right now they cut off too much. The game out of box is basic Command and Conquer placed in Star Wars Univers. Build Build Build, Destroy Destroy Destroy.

Only strategy we have in the game is which planet I'm going to take ?

I still have rebelion on my HD installed and I enjoy playing it. As for tactical part of the space battle rebelion lets you decide which formation you fleet will adopt before starting the battle. I even found my self winning unwinable battle when I compare numbers wheras in EAW if you are outnumbered no matter what others say in 99 % of cases you are screwed. 1 % is left if your adversery is really clumsy.

So yes, simplify the game for maket purpose but dont empty it from its contenant. With EAW they passsed from one extreme to another the trick is how they can find good balance. Not make it to complex such as Masters of Orion and not make it too dumb as C&C.



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Old 04-14-2006, 10:35 AM   #14
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As I keep saying, "Which planet do I take next?" can be a very complex question and may involve a lot of strategy. That's like saying, "the only strategy in chess is which piece do I capture next?"


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Old 04-14-2006, 10:44 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge2211
Rebellion had a lot of depth, yes, but it really tried to do too much at once. It got REALLY micromanagey and it became a chore to manage your forces on a 200-planet map when each planet had three facilities clamoring for attention.
I remember the terrific multiplayer games I've had with a friend! Everything was going on so fast you hardly ever had a break. That made the game extremely addictive once you started playing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge2211
(While the diplomacy was interesting in Rebellion, Empire at War is a war game. I'm happy to grant it that status and let diplomacy be a non-factor.)
I have to disagree here. Why would a war game be exempt of any diplomacy? R:TW is also a "war game" but makes use of a simple, yet effective, diplomacy system.

Also, Rebellion had all sorts of coverts missions, ranging from sabotage to espionage to insurection propaganda. Spy on a planet, and you'll see that there are two star destroyers in orbit. Send two teams of commandos with Solo and Luke to blow them up. If they succeed, the planets in that sector would loose faith in the Empire. Diplomacy is thus mixed with war.


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Old 04-14-2006, 01:07 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge2211
As I keep saying, "Which planet do I take next?" can be a very complex question and may involve a lot of strategy. That's like saying, "the only strategy in chess is which piece do I capture next?"

"which planet do i take next" while i understand this point of view i think a better example of the kind of strategy in EAW is this

"the difference between a closely fought skirmish and a one-sided pushover is just how long you can be bothered to wait"

If you invade a planet early you find half the empire waiting if you wait 5 mins and build your force to be the largest in the galaxy you find the planet you just invaded is garrisoned by 2 squads of storm troopers backed up by the ewoks.
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Old 04-14-2006, 07:10 PM   #17
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there should be options on how simple or complex you want a game to be.

i just got an idea how to make each planet feel more important. its easy, but its only a simple idea. i think it could be patched in. a fly by of the planet before the battle begines.
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Old 04-14-2006, 09:30 PM   #18
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I didn't get the opportunity to play rebellion very much - but I would certainly agree with the people who complained about interface problems and bad graphics in battles. Yet it did feature some nice options and tons of different units and heroes. I don't think calling it one of the best strategy games ever would be justified - that's probably just the Star Wars atmosphere bonus speaking out of the fans I think titles like Alpha Centauri, Master of Orion 2 or Imperium Galactica 2 are probably a lot deeper in terms of strategy than what Rebellion managed. But well - I didn't play it so much. However - I have to agree that Empire at War could well use a healthy dose of Rebellion's strategic complexity More sensible espionage options and a diplomatic element would indeed be very interesting. (oh ... and it would be great if the galactic planning mode were to be turned into a turn based system - the current one is too hectic for my taste)


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Old 04-15-2006, 09:22 AM   #19
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Yeah I have to agree with everyone who is saying Rebellion is underrated. It is one of THE best Star Wars strategy games available. Like Jan said, if Rebellion and EaW were combined it would be the most killer game around. Because it would have complexity and controlled battles and all that fun micro managment.

Rebellion is really for the hard core fans that like to be able to control everything.

If you havent tried it I suggest you do, it really is a fun game. Though now days is somewhat hard to find.


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