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Old 05-02-2006, 01:19 AM   #41
merlin01ca
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It would alienate the entire community if they didn't release the mod tools like they said.
LIKE THEY SAID.
I like big game companies who lie.
It basically makes them fade away and die.
I HOPE they don't release the mod tools just to see their entire fan base be wiped out
It has happened before to NUMEROUS games and star wars fans are damn finicky.
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Old 05-02-2006, 01:22 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth54
Lets not forget that LA had announced a demo for Battlefront 1. The said demo obviously never came out. ( the dead horse!)

I know this has absolutely nothing to do with EaW, but remember that, unless I am mistaking, neither LA or Petro ever *promised* that they would release modding tools. As with any kind of "announced" online content, they can choose to pull the plug anytime they want should they see fit.

I know, I'm a bit pessimistic. Someone has to be though.

And Luke, I just realized you were a mod now. Congrats
Watch lucas arts lie like it mostly always does
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Old 05-02-2006, 01:56 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrawniejoe
then Empire At War 4: The Sith Wars(think KOTOR)
Already working on that


You'll notice Torpid said absolutely nothing about mod tools in a mod tools thread. He said map editor. Those are two complete different things.

Which only serves to reinforce my idea that we will never get mod tools.


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Old 05-02-2006, 01:36 PM   #44
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Merlin:

Dude, every game has an expansion nowadays. They're not designed to fix problems with a game and get money at the same time, they're designed to expand the game in ways that modders can't. That's why they're called "expansions", and not "patches."


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Old 05-02-2006, 07:09 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge2211
Dude, every game has an expansion nowadays.
What about Battlefront 1? KotOR 1?
It really seems like LA has abandonned the expansion business. They focus on doing "new" games instead. Of course, "new" here refers to a carbon copy of the original with a few extra brownies (it actually worked decently well for KotOR, but for BF.....)


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Old 05-02-2006, 07:54 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth54
What about Battlefront 1? KotOR 1?
It really seems like LA has abandonned the expansion business. They focus on doing "new" games instead. Of course, "new" here refers to a carbon copy of the original with a few extra brownies (it actually worked decently well for KotOR, but for BF.....)
It will only be a matter of time before EAW 2
/rollseyes.
I never bought battlefront 2 because its just another money grab.
Most of the options in BF 2 are available through mods in BF 1.
Again it just seems like LA is money grabbing here.
And some consumers are stupid enough to fall for it.
But i think we've seen with the drop in PC game sales that they really aren't.
EAW is a fresh idea and i like it.
But another expansion will simply be a grab for money.
RELEASE THE MOD TOOLS YOU GREEDY..... *****
..
btw who should i mail my letters of anger to?
is this forum for people who actually work on the game itself?
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Old 05-02-2006, 10:07 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merlin01ca
It will only be a matter of time before EAW 2
/rollseyes.
I never bought battlefront 2 because its just another money grab.
Most of the options in BF 2 are available through mods in BF 1.
Again it just seems like LA is money grabbing here.
And some consumers are stupid enough to fall for it.
But i think we've seen with the drop in PC game sales that they really aren't.
EAW is a fresh idea and i like it.
But another expansion will simply be a grab for money.
RELEASE THE MOD TOOLS YOU GREEDY..... *****
..
btw who should i mail my letters of anger to?
is this forum for people who actually work on the game itself?

Money grabbing? Who the hell says they have to keep up their promises of mod tools? Mod tools are a favor. You do not pay the $50 for the mod tools. You pay it for the game itself.

Besides, it's a business. They make money. That's the whole point. Nobody makes games for charity.

They'll release the bloody mod tools when they will release them. Whining about it won't accelerate things. It makes a whiner sound like a selfish jerk and frankly if I was a designer, I wouldn't release the tools just so they can be more pissed.

At the end of the day, LucasArts will still retain is fanbase and the petty empty threats of whiners won't change a thing.


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Old 05-03-2006, 05:20 AM   #48
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Old 05-03-2006, 11:51 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Money grabbing? Who the hell says they have to keep up their promises of mod tools? Mod tools are a favor. You do not pay the $50 for the mod tools. You pay it for the game itself.

Besides, it's a business. They make money. That's the whole point. Nobody makes games for charity.

They'll release the bloody mod tools when they will release them. Whining about it won't accelerate things. It makes a whiner sound like a selfish jerk and frankly if I was a designer, I wouldn't release the tools just so they can be more pissed.

At the end of the day, LucasArts will still retain is fanbase and the petty empty threats of whiners won't change a thing.
I'm not the one who loses a fanbase if they don't release the mod tools.
And saying that games are put out SIMPLY for profit shows your lack of education concerning anything to do with economics. It's not us that lose out when lucasarts loses its fan base... as it has over the past several years.
And if the mod tools don't come out, another way to point out on every forum that deals with a lucasarts game about how they lie and don't support their games.
Lucasarts in the movies could survive. But lucasarts in the gaming world is slowly slipping into obscurity. And im laughing at every single developer for lucasarts out there.
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Old 05-04-2006, 01:08 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyvik
You'll notice Torpid said absolutely nothing about mod tools in a mod tools thread. He said map editor. Those are two complete different things.

Which only serves to reinforce my idea that we will never get mod tools.
Oh ye of little faith

I didn't say anything about mod tools because I honestly didn't know what they will be including along with the editor. Now I know...but I'm going to let SageKing spill the beans cause I'm evil that way...


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Old 05-04-2006, 01:33 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Torpid-PG
Oh ye of little faith
Years of getting burned by developers has made me cynical and bitter, I'm afraid


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Old 05-04-2006, 02:04 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Money grabbing? Who the hell says they have to keep up their promises of mod tools? Mod tools are a favor. You do not pay the $50 for the mod tools. You pay it for the game itself.

Besides, it's a business. They make money. That's the whole point. Nobody makes games for charity.

They'll release the bloody mod tools when they will release them. Whining about it won't accelerate things. It makes a whiner sound like a selfish jerk and frankly if I was a designer, I wouldn't release the tools just so they can be more pissed.

At the end of the day, LucasArts will still retain is fanbase and the petty empty threats of whiners won't change a thing.
QFT

Companies make games to make money. The more money they make, the more games they make. Companies who support their customers are a rare breed nowadays, be thankful Petro are at least keeping us informed, albeit cryptically. Be thankful they are working on a FOURTH patch. Be thankful we are getting a map editor. Mod tools simply are not as important as the patches/map editors. Not everyone will be playing mods but they will be playing different maps and hopefully on a more stable game.


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Old 05-04-2006, 03:28 PM   #53
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Old 05-04-2006, 04:05 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merlin01ca
I'm not the one who loses a fanbase if they don't release the mod tools.
And saying that games are put out SIMPLY for profit shows your lack of education concerning anything to do with economics. It's not us that lose out when lucasarts loses its fan base... as it has over the past several years.
And if the mod tools don't come out, another way to point out on every forum that deals with a lucasarts game about how they lie and don't support their games.
Lucasarts in the movies could survive. But lucasarts in the gaming world is slowly slipping into obscurity. And im laughing at every single developer for lucasarts out there.

Strange. What the hell have I been doing in college for the last two years if not studying economics? Do you actually believe that if there was no money to be made in gaming, quality games would get released? I'm sure your "greater" education in "economics" will probably tell you that games are released for charity.

LucasArts have not been losing their fanbase at all. Their games have been decent in the last few years, good enough to make them survive. Of course, the last few years and the great games out there are easily forgotten when it forwards one's own goals.

Oh by the way, you over-estimate the impact of forums. The forums won't make or break a game. Especially if it's basically whining, people are smart enough to ignore it.

Do you actually think that you will make mod tools come out faster? That empty threats are good pressure? You're more ignorant then you think. There are better ways to pressure someone. Keep asking questions, keep sending them e-mails, well written and polite. Trying to angrily threaten someone will get you nowhere. Then again, I must know nothing, my education in economics must be sooo low...


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Old 05-04-2006, 04:05 PM   #55
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wow

I was just reading over all the things that have been said in response to my original posting...wow. I was in no way saying that Lucas arts is money hungry. George Lucas is one of the most brilliant men in America and he fully realizes the potential of the game industry. Did anyone read that article about how fast Lucas arts has been growing since George kicked it up a notch?
I do feel however that Petro. has been doing a great job of "listening" but as of yet, probably due to a lack of time, they havent been doing much "talking." It is a tough thing for a company to try and tackle the star wars universe on their first attempt. Petro did it beautifully. There are problems with the game, but they have released 3 patches already and are working on a 4th..that shows a deep commitment to makin the game stable. I dont really care how long it takes to get the game perfect, b/c i'll be playing it for years. (especially if all of those amazing mods come out lol) So i say, take your time Petro, if you are planning on releasing a map editor/scenario editor, mod tools, EAW 2 etc. keep us informed and if you dont have anythign official you can tell us than just say, " we have no idea, the dark side clouds everything" or somethign similar lmao
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Old 05-04-2006, 04:08 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Then again, I must know nothing, my education in economics must be sooo low...

.....what does an education in calculus, physics, chemistry, astronomy buy you in the 'forum world?' lol .............a well...im sure i'll find a use for that crap at some point
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Old 05-04-2006, 04:11 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Plagus
.....what does an education in calculus, physics, chemistry, astronomy buy you in the 'forum world?' lol .............a well...im sure i'll find a use for that crap at some point

Well, in off-topic back at Ahto Spaceport in the SWK.com forums, there are a few discussions where such knowledge would be quite useful Or you can simply show off once in a while by adding some of those elements in the discussion

[/end off-topic]


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Old 05-04-2006, 04:32 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Plagus
I was in no way saying that Lucas arts is money hungry.
It's all right, we corrected your mistake

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Plagus
George Lucas is one of the most brilliant men in America and he fully realizes the potential of the game industry. Did anyone read that article about how fast Lucas arts has been growing since George kicked it up a notch?
Lucas smart? Damn right he is. Just by making sure he had the rights for all the SW merchandise back in '77 was one of the most brilliant move ever done (concerning movie making/business, that is).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Plagus
I do feel however that Petro. has been doing a great job of "listening"
Apart from BioWare, Petro are the best developpers to work for LA IMO. Just by sending someone is this little corner of the web they are marking a few points in my book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukeiamyourdad
Or you can simply show off once in a while by adding some of those elements in the discussion
Go Krypton!! Noble gases FOR THE WIN

.... that's what you meant, right?


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Old 05-04-2006, 08:35 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Strange. What the hell have I been doing in college for the last two years if not studying economics? Do you actually believe that if there was no money to be made in gaming, quality games would get released? I'm sure your "greater" education in "economics" will probably tell you that games are released for charity.

LucasArts have not been losing their fanbase at all. Their games have been decent in the last few years, good enough to make them survive. Of course, the last few years and the great games out there are easily forgotten when it forwards one's own goals.

Oh by the way, you over-estimate the impact of forums. The forums won't make or break a game. Especially if it's basically whining, people are smart enough to ignore it.

Do you actually think that you will make mod tools come out faster? That empty threats are good pressure? You're more ignorant then you think. There are better ways to pressure someone. Keep asking questions, keep sending them e-mails, well written and polite. Trying to angrily threaten someone will get you nowhere. Then again, I must know nothing, my education in economics must be sooo low...
HEHE.
You must think me younger then my years.
As i've been through 3 years of University myself (NOT in economic courses, mostly on the technical side of things) I can tell you that BOTH university's and colleges are simply a way for someone to wave a piece of paper in my face and tell me "their more educated" when, they simply are not, compared to the real, working, non-theoretical world.
As we have seen with games such as Counter-strike, Command and Conquer, Warcraft, Battlefield 1942.. the game that has the BEST mods, usually survives amongst the vast majority of its modless peers. A game surviving=MORE REVENUE FOR THE COMPANY, for the simple fact that more people will buy the game from talk heard online/from friends etc. and even those who will RE-buy the game if the mod creates a popular following. IE Counter-strike Source, Day of defeat Source, Command And conquer.
Hell, i know people that have bought KOTOR (the original) because they've heard it was so good.
A company that creates a game wants money yes.
But a SMART company also wants a game that will survive its initial run and become so popular that it will sell even more (WOW what a though huh)
No, i have very little economics background but as far as common sense goes.. well.. there ya go
Just a tip to lucasarts btw
And lucasarts and great games in the last few years are VERY RARELY in the same sentence. Except for EAW
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Old 05-04-2006, 08:55 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Torpid-PG
Oh ye of little faith

I didn't say anything about mod tools because I honestly didn't know what they will be including along with the editor. Now I know...but I'm going to let SageKing spill the beans cause I'm evil that way...
That is either
a) mod tools are coming with the map editor
or
b) no mod tools in or out of the map editor

the above has been stating the obvious

And just wondering how does the above post conflict with who it's quoting it seems to me that they both came to the conclution games that increase fanbase>games that don't for both profit and quality (how it increase the fan base would be being a good game right)
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Old 05-04-2006, 10:32 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merlin01ca
HEHE.
You must think me younger then my years.
What does age have to do with anything?

Quote:
Originally Posted by merlin01ca
As i've been through 3 years of University myself (NOT in economic courses, mostly on the technical side of things) I can tell you that BOTH university's and colleges are simply a way for someone to wave a piece of paper in my face and tell me "their more educated" when, they simply are not, compared to the real, working, non-theoretical world.
So, you're saying that a doctor knows less then you about healing people? You know more about physics then a physicist?
Don't make me laugh, sure, none of those makes you "smarter". They give you the instruments to help you in the area you study in. The fact that you have knowledge about something does not make you a specialist or a reference about it. The fact that you spent years studying about it does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by merlin01ca
As we have seen with games such as Counter-strike, Command and Conquer, Warcraft, Battlefield 1942.. the game that has the BEST mods, usually survives amongst the vast majority of its modless peers.
There is no doubt about this, but is it true that they make more money? Doubtful.
As a matter of facts, GTA: San Andreas made more money then any other game in the last few years. Did it have many mods? No. It made most of it sales on the PS2 version. Strange eh? Why didn't the moddable version get higher sales?

Quote:
Originally Posted by merlin01ca
A game surviving=MORE REVENUE FOR THE COMPANY, for the simple fact that more people will buy the game from talk heard online/from friends etc.
Ok...so how does it surviving longer make for more revenues? People can talk about a modless game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by merlin01ca
and even those who will RE-buy the game if the mod creates a popular following. IE Counter-strike Source, Day of defeat Source, Command And conquer.
Wrong comparison. Last I heard, Counter-Strike's graphics are very different from Counter-Strike's Source. There's a good reason why people have bought it.
By the way, the original is still alive and well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by merlin01ca
Hell, i know people that have bought KOTOR (the original) because they've heard it was so good.
Basic marketing. Everyone knows that. I don't know what this has to do with anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by merlin01ca
A company that creates a game wants money yes.
But a SMART company also wants a game that will survive its initial run and become so popular that it will sell even more (WOW what a though huh)
There's no denying that a game surviving the initial run generates more money, but not in the way you seem to think.
It simply keeps a better fanbase to support the next game. However, this depends on the existence of a next game. It will be easier to market the second game.
The profit generated from a long lived game is marginal at best and you have to consider the cost of continued support.

Quote:
Originally Posted by merlin01ca
No, i have very little economics background but as far as common sense goes.. well.. there ya go
Except that common sense also dictates that the Earth is flat. You cannot apply "common sense" to everything.
If you actually knew anything about economics, you'd know about the vast number of variables that come into play. There is no absolute in economics. A single detail, a single variable can make or break your product.

Quote:
Originally Posted by merlin01ca
Just a tip to lucasarts btw
And lucasarts and great games in the last few years are VERY RARELY in the same sentence. Except for EAW
Are you sure about that?
You mentioned KotOR. It and its sequel did very well. Republic Commando was decent and so were the Battlefront games (in the case of Battlefront, barely decent). Then there's E@W who's also good and various other games that perhaps didn't become "epic" games but they were still good or decent. Of course, you didn't want to forget about those...but hey, when it makes one's point seem better, facts are forgotten.

Since we're talking about the impact of mods, let me ask you a simple question. Why aren't consoles mod friendly? After all, if the mods' impact is so great, Microsoft, Nintendo and Sony must incorporate some easy mod tools for their consoles right? However, they don't and the next generation doesn't seem to be mod friendly either. My conclusion about this is that after studying the market, the companies realized that the impact of mods were not as great as some suggested. It was marginal in most cases and only managed to truly boost sales in only very few cases. It was not worth the investment.


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Old 05-05-2006, 12:01 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merlin01ca
HEHE.
You must think me younger then my years.
As i've been through 3 years of University myself (NOT in economic courses, mostly on the technical side of things) I can tell you that BOTH university's and colleges are simply a way for someone to wave a piece of paper in my face and tell me "their more educated" when, they simply are not, compared to the real, working, non-theoretical world.
I have to say that almost hands down, all of my professors have blown me away. I respect virtually all of my professors, and the ones who I think I can learn very little from and don't respect initially, I end up talking with them and quickly realize that they know a heck of a lot. Professors where I am are almost all very smart and very unique individuals and I have an incredible amount of respect for their achievements. Try getting to know your professors, you'll find a lot of things they've done very interesting, I assure you. I can see though how you've been semi-disillusioned because technical professors do struggle to keep up with the cutting edge, mainly because a year out of the work place (for technical oriented degrees) means losing that edge.

Quote:
As we have seen with games such as Counter-strike, Command and Conquer, Warcraft, Battlefield 1942.. the game that has the BEST mods, usually survives amongst the vast majority of its modless peers. A game surviving=MORE REVENUE FOR THE COMPANY, for the simple fact that more people will buy the game from talk heard online/from friends etc. and even those who will RE-buy the game if the mod creates a popular following. IE Counter-strike Source, Day of defeat Source, Command And conquer.
You just named a bunch of legends in the gaming world. You forgot to mention the great games that win game of the year every year which may or may not be on the list of legendary games. Games come out in such bulk every year that the chance of a game becoming legendary is remote and it certainly doesn't happen every year.
Also think about it...mods give little to no revenue to a company. Also when people go back and buy games like BF1942 it's not frequent, and they're also not paying much money (I believe I saw BF1942 +X-pacs+ BFVietnam for less than $30). That's operating very close to the margin. It's barely worth it for companies to make new copies of an ancient game, with only a few notable exceptions (and even the exceptions come in a value pack priced down such as the Command and Conquer pack I saw at Best Buy, all the command and conquers, including renegade, for like $30). Sure, like you said, it's more revenue for the company, but it's just pocket change in comparison to the first year of sales while the prices are higher and the demand is up.

No, the Star Wars liscense would have been fine even if EAW flopped horribly. There are so many fans of the series and so many who like sci-fi games that I don't see star wars going out of style even if it did have a bunch of bad games. Just look at Star Trek.


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Old 05-05-2006, 01:59 AM   #63
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Some mighty fine omnislashing going on!!


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Old 05-05-2006, 03:30 AM   #64
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Guys Back on topic...Stop debating over the Companies overview on Gamers and Get back to the fact that the [long transmisson break] and P[transmission break] are out on [transmission break]y!!!



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Old 05-06-2006, 01:36 AM   #65
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Yes, I agree. The tone is not good and is getting off topic. The Ego is a fragile thing. lol

The discussion is interesting in its own merit for another thread, maybe not quite this one?

I am sure the Map Editor will be released (maybe in an expansion pack), as for more mod tools, Mike and sqweegee have made a LUA Editor and some other Model Tools. Just today released...whether Petro releases the Tools or not.
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Old 05-07-2006, 12:15 AM   #66
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Old 05-07-2006, 01:44 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Since we're talking about the impact of mods, let me ask you a simple question. Why aren't consoles mod friendly? After all, if the mods' impact is so great, Microsoft, Nintendo and Sony must incorporate some easy mod tools for their consoles right? However, they don't and the next generation doesn't seem to be mod friendly either. My conclusion about this is that after studying the market, the companies realized that the impact of mods were not as great as some suggested. It was marginal in most cases and only managed to truly boost sales in only very few cases. It was not worth the investment.
Here is where you are dead wrong. Consoles don't need mods to make money because consoles appeal to anybody with an IQ over 10. PCs require thought and knowledge of use, which is why their market for gaming does not make nearly as much, because people with an IQ over 70 are required, and that shuts out more than half the population.

Ever since Half-Life, mods have guarenteed a game's survival. And I also have to rate you wrong on your assumption that GTA: SA had no mods. Does the name "Hot Coffee" mean anything to you? It certainly does to most people who know anything about mods. There are actually quite a few mods out there for GTA:SA, but here is where the difference lies:

GTA:SA was a complete game, with more content than most MMOs. EaW, as much as I love it, is not a complete game. A complete game needs no mods to guarentee its survival, and needs no expansion pack. However, that's not to say that mods don't help. Hot Coffee certainly increased the sales of GTA:SA, anything scandalous like that does. Counter-Strike ensured the survival of Half-Life and it is still alive today, 8 years after it was made.

The point is that any game made on the PC market in this day and age will only do better with mods. To screw over the modding fanbase would only hurt the company doing so. Maybe not by a whole lot...but who knows when the next Counter-Strike is coming?

-on a side note related to the first paragraph, never compare the PC market to the Console market. Consoles hold a far larger share of the population's money because all it requires is a TV, some dollars, and at least six brain cells.


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Old 05-07-2006, 02:46 PM   #68
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Here is where you are dead wrong. Consoles don't need mods to make money because consoles appeal to anybody with an IQ over 10. PCs require thought and knowledge of use, which is why their market for gaming does not make nearly as much, because people with an IQ over 70 are required, and that shuts out more than half the population.
So my friends are idiots right? Perhaps you should get out of your basement once in a while and get a life before passing such a judgement on people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyvik
Ever since Half-Life, mods have guarenteed a game's survival. And I also have to rate you wrong on your assumption that GTA: SA had no mods. Does the name "Hot Coffee" mean anything to you? It certainly does to most people who know anything about mods.
Hot Coffee, alone, would've done nothing. Hot Coffee + Scandal = huge media exposure. That's why it boosted the sales. GTA:SA got free marketing. The mod, had it not been scandalous and on every media news source, would've have done nothing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyvik
There are actually quite a few mods out there for GTA:SA, but here is where the difference lies:

GTA:SA was a complete game, with more content than most MMOs. EaW, as much as I love it, is not a complete game. A complete game needs no mods to guarentee its survival, and needs no expansion pack.
What is a "complete" game? The reason why GTA can't have an expansion pack is because it's a console game. Console fans would be pissed at not having the same extra content.
By the way, since when is Half-Life not a "complete" game? Or Unreal Tournament? Or Battlefield 1942?

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Originally Posted by Xyvik
However, that's not to say that mods don't help. Hot Coffee certainly increased the sales of GTA:SA, anything scandalous like that does.
Thanks for proving my point.

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Originally Posted by Xyvik
Counter-Strike ensured the survival of Half-Life and it is still alive today, 8 years after it was made.
That is true but did it truly help their sales? I don't think so. I mean, sure people keep playing CS but they don't buy a new copy every year.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyvik
The point is that any game made on the PC market in this day and age will only do better with mods. To screw over the modding fanbase would only hurt the company doing so. Maybe not by a whole lot...but who knows when the next Counter-Strike is coming?
And making decisions in a business shouldn't be based on "what if" scenarios. If you're at the head of a company and have to decide whether to invest money into something, you want to be sure to get good results.

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Originally Posted by Xyvik
-on a side note related to the first paragraph, never compare the PC market to the Console market. Consoles hold a far larger share of the population's money because all it requires is a TV, some dollars, and at least six brain cells.

Comparing markets is something that can be done. There's a reason why PC gaming is moving slowly towards console gaming and people have to get prepared for the shock.

I'd like to add that all the games with mods thrown into the debate as examples all share something in common. They're already great games. Unreal Tournament Vanilla, BF1942 Vanilla and Half-Life were all great games to begin with. As such, the mods only came along nicely because they developed a great fanbase from the beginning and people wanted to play around with it. In the case of a game with lead in its wings like E@W, the impact will be marginal.


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Last edited by lukeiamyourdad; 05-07-2006 at 03:01 PM.
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Old 05-07-2006, 03:13 PM   #69
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I smile at your attempts to insult me. First off, I am engaged to a fine woman who can beat me at half of my computer games. Second, I don't live in a basement, I live in a very nice house in Phoenix. Third, I probably have more friends than you do. So get off your high horse and actually pay attention.

Fourth, I suggest you take a look at the real comments I made. Did I say that all console gamers have an IQ of ten? No, I didn't. Did I say that all console gamers have only six brain cells? Once again, no I didn't. Also did I say that Half-Life isn't a complete game? No, if you'll read closely I said that even complete games are helped by mods.

Consoles have a much larger market because TVs are already standard equipment in homes and any three year old can pick up a controller. Was I insulting all console users in my comments? No, because I myself still have my Sega Genesis, and I regularly play my PS2. The simple fact of the matter, however, is that consoles require no thought to use and setup. I play consoles to get away from the hassles of computers. Computers require knowledge of upgrades, system requirements, how to type and use a mouse, how to use Windows, and all sorts of other things that narrow the market. The simple fact is that the average American has a very low intelligence because they sit in front of their TVs all the time and don't involve themselves in actual creative thinking. Since they already have a TV, why not market to them by another product that requires little more creative thinking?

The entire point of my comments was saying that mods cannot hurt a game, except recently when the ESRB has started going ballistic (but that has to do with the developers leaving the content in, so the mods are not the problem).


As for your other points, here's comments otherwise:

1: Counter-Strike increased the sales of Half-Life. Why do you think they made it into a full product? Because they were already seeing increased sales and knew that CS would be successful in its own right, which it then was. Companies just don't make mods into products unless they have already proven to be a viable commercial asset.

2: The reason why PC gaming is moving to console gaming is the same reason I stated above: it's a larger market because everybody already has a TV and because any three year old can pick up a controller. More and more companies are selling their souls to mass profits instead of quality games (with a few exceptions on both sides of the coin) and I've been expecting this for years. At least one genre cannot survive on the console, and that is RTS. No RTS made for consoles has survived financially yet, and I don't really see that changing. But hey, it just might.

3: I never said UT, BF1942, or Half-Life were not great games to begin with. They are the best multiplayer and singleplayer FPSs out there, in that order. However, I'll tell you something: I know at least ten people who only got EaW because it was said it was going to be mod-friendly, and that's not counting me. Also, I know an additional thirteen or so people who hated EaW's demo and would never buy the game, and yet when I told them about some of the mods in the works, they said they just might. While 33 odd people is not a large number in the long run, it's certainly more money than without it(more than $1,300, in fact). And I'm sure there are others like that.

In the end, Petroglyph promised the community something. As a starting out company, if they don't deliver on their promises, their future successes are not guarenteed, as a lot of people will take notice. How many people take notice depends on how badly Petro does things. I'm convinced that Petro will deliver on their promises, because it is simply bad business to do otherwise.

-edit- Glad to see you edited out your insults. I was beginning to wonder just what the moderaters were coming to these days.


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Old 05-07-2006, 04:32 PM   #70
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I smile at your attempts to insult me. First off, I am engaged to a fine woman who can beat me at half of my computer games. Second, I don't live in a basement, I live in a very nice house in Phoenix. Third, I probably have more friends than you do. So get off your high horse and actually pay attention.
I'm sure you do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyvik
Fourth, I suggest you take a look at the real comments I made. Did I say that all console gamers have an IQ of ten? No, I didn't. Did I say that all console gamers have only six brain cells? Once again, no I didn't. Also did I say that Half-Life isn't a complete game? No, if you'll read closely I said that even complete games are helped by mods.
True enough, but you also claimed that half the population were not really smart. By the way, I don't think people with an IQ around ten can actually play video games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyvik
Consoles have a much larger market because TVs are already standard equipment in homes and any three year old can pick up a controller. Was I insulting all console users in my comments? No, because I myself still have my Sega Genesis, and I regularly play my PS2. The simple fact of the matter, however, is that consoles require no thought to use and setup. I play consoles to get away from the hassles of computers. Computers require knowledge of upgrades, system requirements, how to type and use a mouse, how to use Windows, and all sorts of other things that narrow the market. The simple fact is that the average American has a very low intelligence because they sit in front of their TVs all the time and don't involve themselves in actual creative thinking. Since they already have a TV, why not market to them by another product that requires little more creative thinking?
You did insult half the population and said that consoles require half a brain which is not exactly true either. Truth is, PC gaming doesn't require you to be that smart either. Anyone can learn how to install a game and look at numbers to see if they fit the requirements. After that, there's no hassle.
Seriously, I don't see how you can claim that you're not insulting people who play consoles.

And let's drop this, since it's going no where and doesn't anything to do with the actual debate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyvik
The entire point of my comments was saying that mods cannot hurt a game, except recently when the ESRB has started going ballistic (but that has to do with the developers leaving the content in, so the mods are not the problem).
Of course they do not hurt. I never said that they did either. I like mods. I preferred many mods for BF1942 then the original game. The principle of modding never does hurt a game


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Originally Posted by Xyvik
As for your other points, here's comments otherwise:

1: Counter-Strike increased the sales of Half-Life. Why do you think they made it into a full product? Because they were already seeing increased sales and knew that CS would be successful in its own right, which it then was. Companies just don't make mods into products unless they have already proven to be a viable commercial asset.
It's one case out of...millions. Statistically insignificant. Counter-Strike was the small marvel and we have not seen anything come close to it since then. Hardly an incentive for serious investment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyvik
2: The reason why PC gaming is moving to console gaming is the same reason I stated above: it's a larger market because everybody already has a TV and because any three year old can pick up a controller. More and more companies are selling their souls to mass profits instead of quality games (with a few exceptions on both sides of the coin) and I've been expecting this for years. At least one genre cannot survive on the console, and that is RTS. No RTS made for consoles has survived financially yet, and I don't really see that changing. But hey, it just might.
Oh it can change. One cannot know the future. Mass profit is what investors are looking for. Afterall, if I put money into something, I expect the best monetary results. That's how it is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyvik
3: I never said UT, BF1942, or Half-Life were not great games to begin with. They are the best multiplayer and singleplayer FPSs out there, in that order. However, I'll tell you something: I know at least ten people who only got EaW because it was said it was going to be mod-friendly, and that's not counting me. Also, I know an additional thirteen or so people who hated EaW's demo and would never buy the game, and yet when I told them about some of the mods in the works, they said they just might. While 33 odd people is not a large number in the long run, it's certainly more money than without it(more than $1,300, in fact). And I'm sure there are others like that.
Again, statistically insignificant. Personal experience cannot be simply applied and generalized like that because I had the exact different experience.
I talked to my friends about many mods for various games and that didn't change their minds on buying or not a game. Why? They want the original product to be good. You don't pay 40$ just to expect that some mods will make the game good.
Oh by the way, 10+13=23, not 33


Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyvik
In the end, Petroglyph promised the community something. As a starting out company, if they don't deliver on their promises, their future successes are not guarenteed, as a lot of people will take notice. How many people take notice depends on how badly Petro does things. I'm convinced that Petro will deliver on their promises, because it is simply bad business to do otherwise.
It's bad PR true, but it won't change that much. The "hardcore" community will, that's for sure, however, the common gamer might not. Or else EA (and pretty much every other company except for a exceptions) would be bankrupt by now. The fact is, the bad publicity does not go far enough to actually harm the company. Something bad for the consumers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyvik
-edit- Glad to see you edited out your insults. I was beginning to wonder just what the moderaters were coming to these days.
I didn't edit out the "insults".


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Old 05-07-2006, 05:06 PM   #71
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I didn't edit out the "insults".
Actually, you repeated your one insult of telling me to get out of the basement and get a life and friends, so yeah, I would generally consider that an insult, no matter what your high-and-mighty moderater ability tells you, especially since it has no basis in reality. If you're going to insult someone, use facts, not generalizations. And while you're at it, don't insult them in the first place. You are a moderater and are an example to the community.

And, of course, said second insult is now missing. And here I thought you were actually being nice. Guess I was wrong.

Bad PR may or may not affect sales that much, unfortunately. Either way, in the end, I just want some good mods, and I want Petro to keep their promises. Oh, and if you read my comments again, you'll see that I was not generalizing. I said that the number (and yeah, its 23 not 33, doh :S) is not that much in the long run, but it IS still more money for the company.

Guess people just view mods differently. I've always viewed them as a sure way to keep a good game alive, and even at times help a mediocre game.


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Old 05-07-2006, 07:11 PM   #72
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Actually, you repeated your one insult of telling me to get out of the basement and get a life and friends, so yeah, I would generally consider that an insult, no matter what your high-and-mighty moderater ability tells you, especially since it has no basis in reality. If you're going to insult someone, use facts, not generalizations. And while you're at it, don't insult them in the first place. You are a moderater and are an example to the community.

And, of course, said second insult is now missing. And here I thought you were actually being nice. Guess I was wrong.
I thought that it gave nothing to repeat it. So I removed it because it was useless, not necessarily being nice. I can only use generalizations based on the general profile of people making such claims. The facts are not present and there is no way you can actually prove to me that you have a life. It was actually an insult after insulting half the population so we could just stop throwing insults as this is getting pointless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyvik
Bad PR may or may not affect sales that much, unfortunately. Either way, in the end, I just want some good mods, and I want Petro to keep their promises. Oh, and if you read my comments again, you'll see that I was not generalizing. I said that the number (and yeah, its 23 not 33, doh :S) is not that much in the long run, but it IS still more money for the company.
Yes, but is 23 worth it for the people making the decisions? The revenues have to be higher then the costs. I know the numbers are a bit...small, but you have to think: 10 persons who would purchase it and 13 who only might. So even then it's truly only 10, the 13 being people who need more convincing.
There's also, like I said, the fear of spending 40$ on a product for nothing. Mods may sound good but until there's a real result, they're not going to buy something just based on hope. Add to that the fact that they can't whine at all against the modders if the mods turn out to be bad. It's hard to complaint about something when you get it for free.

Quote:
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Guess people just view mods differently. I've always viewed them as a sure way to keep a good game alive, and even at times help a mediocre game.
To tell you the truth, I've never heard of a mediocre game surviving thanks to a mod. Mediocre games aren't worth the attention of modders. Since they have no marketing section to get people's attention to their mods, it'll end up a little thing done among friends for themselves.

Keeping a game alive does not give you immediate revenue and is quite a gamble. Keeping the community alive will help a sequel since there will be less money spent on marketing right off the bat. No need to get some exposure, your community will almost do it for you. It sounds too good to be true, but it's also a gamble because modding won't necessarily turn out good enough. Of course, games without modding also have fanbases who can do the same thing without the increased cost of supporting the game.
Coming back to the example of Half-Life, the various mods and the longetivity of CS did help them take the awful lot of time to develop Half-Life 2. However, it is a rare case as most sequels do not take that much time to make due to the process not being cost-effective. In this special case, it helped people remember that Half-Life does exist.
On the other hand, a possible sequel to a game like StarCraft would attract just as much frenzy yet the game has no popular mods (granted, the game did have a lot of good support, patches being released many years after the release).
Like I said in a previous post, there are many variables when it comes to the success of a game. The general "consensus" that mods automatically help a game might not be true and that's what I dispute. Not whether mods are good or bad, in a general sense, just that mod support may not be as great as most people think.


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Old 05-07-2006, 07:50 PM   #73
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It's generally not a good idea to use insults to end insults, it leads to a vicous cycle of repeating. However, perhaps you are right. It's a recognized fact of psychologists that the average IQ of Americans has been steadily declining for the past ten years, and I generally place the blame on the proliferation of TVs and console games, which tend to stifle imagination and make people want to have everything hand-fed to them. But in the end, I probably did insult too many console gamers, even if a portion of them are somewhat dim-witted(same could be said for PC users), and for that I do apologize.

Hmm. You raise good points. But let me put it how I see it:

Mods help build a community (notice the word 'help' not 'make'). Communities help build fanbases. Fanbases buy games. You're right, most people give mods too much credit for the survival of a game. But a strong and popular mod tends to invite more people into the community, which gives the fanbase a bigger boost, and generally leads to more sales, if not of the particular game, perhaps to its sequal. Whether they automatically ensure a game's survival depends on the company's reaction to the community. But no, I don't think they 100% automatically make a game successful, but they can certainly build a developers fanbase, which is never a bad thing.


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Old 05-07-2006, 09:41 PM   #74
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While I'm not so sure Console games stifle imagination (if anything they've enhanced and opened mine up on many occasions), they have been getting an undeserved bad rap. Many games have puzzle solving involved, many games also enhance knowledge (such as Madden, it gave me a basic understanding of football, right down to the plays that I didn't even pick up while I was playing in High School as a DE), many games in general give you a hands-on experiance that you might not otherwise have had. Games don't make people stupid, people make people stupid, it's their choice to overexpose themselves and neglect their lives, up to the point of failing out of college (which I've had multiple friends do...and not because of just console games either. When World of Warcraft means more to you than going to class for a test, there's a problem). You can blame stupidity on whatever the doctor of the day says is killing America, but ultimately it comes down to the fact that people make choices. Some people make smart choices, some people make good choices, such is the price of freedom.

And as to mods, they can build a community all they want, some publishers love their fanbase and dote upon them lavishly and are actively involved with them. Others? Not so much, others would rather just have their games speak for themselves. Yet when it comes down to it, Public Relations costs money, and if the marginal revenue from continued sales is dwindling why bother. In many cases today you'll find developers promising mod tools. They don't always deliver, mainly because they don't know how the game will do. Why does a game need mod tools if it doesn't have a community large enough to appreciate it? Thus you see many games that promise mod tools, that kill the project on the tools because they don't see it as being cost effective. Like it or not, no matter how much life ain't fair, video gaming is first and foremost, a business.


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Old 05-18-2006, 08:57 PM   #75
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That is true but did it truly help their sales? I don't think so. I mean, sure people keep playing CS but they don't buy a new copy every year.

Bull****.

You obviously know nothing about counterstrike or you would NEVER have said that
or do you forget CS source?
Mods make the game.
Simple
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Old 05-19-2006, 01:48 PM   #76
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Bull****.

You obviously know nothing about counterstrike or you would NEVER have said that
or do you forget CS source?
Mods make the game.
Simple
Wonderful reply. Next time, maybe you can back it up with arguments?


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Old 07-01-2006, 10:44 AM   #77
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Hehe guys take it easy
Isn't so easy to release expansions packs with tons of new features. Anyway you can just wait and get it when is at budget price no? I don't see where's the problem...

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Old 07-02-2006, 02:57 AM   #78
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Um, you do realize that the last reply in this thread was made 1 and a half months ago, plus that they were discussing the Mod Tools, not the expansion?



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