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View Poll Results: Who is greater, the creator of a killing form—or the master of the classic form?
The Creator of a Killing Form 8 40.00%
The Master of the Classic Form 10 50.00%
Neither 2 10.00%
Voters: 20. You may not vote on this poll


Thread: Who is greater, the creator of a killing form—or the master of the classic form?
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Old 06-22-2006, 06:27 PM   #1
DarthOxyClean
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Who is greater, the creator of a killing form—or the master of the classic form?

READ THIS BEFORE VOTING
Let me clear things up:

Mace Windu once asked Obi-Wan this question right before Obi-Wan travelled to Utapau to fight Grevious.

The "killing form" he reffered to was a Lightsaber form called Vapaad, which Windu created. Vapaad required intense focus, a high degree of skill, and mastery of other forms. It channelled one's anger and darkness into the attack. With strict control, a Jedi's own emotions and inner darkness could be changed into a weapon of the light.

The "classic form" he reffered to was a Lightsaber form called Soresu. As the most prominent Soresu master of his time, Obi-Wan Kenobi was known to be almost invincible in fighting numerous combatants and defeating some of the most dangerous foes when seeming so close to defeat. It was best for warding off blaster fire and multiple opponents as a trained user would be able to defend even outside their visual range.

So, in Mace Windu's words,

Who is greater, the creator of a killing form—or the master of the classic form?

P.S. Sorry about the other thread.


Tell me what you regard as your greatest strength, so I will know how best to undermine you. Tell me of your greatest fear, so I will know which I must force you to face. Tell me what you cherish most, so I will know what to take from you. And tell me what you crave, so that I might deny you.

Last edited by DarthOxyClean; 06-22-2006 at 08:31 PM.
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Old 06-22-2006, 08:23 PM   #2
MachineCult
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You don't have to spell everything out for everyone all the time, just let the conversation go where it's going to go, i'm sure everyone understands what you're asking.
I believe the creator of the killing form is greater, he mastered the classic form first, then he created the killing form, and then he mastered that = Greater.



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Old 06-22-2006, 11:08 PM   #3
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Both just as great plain and simple...



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Old 06-23-2006, 05:30 AM   #4
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Although it is possible that it takes more skill to create a killing form, I have to go with Obi-Wan in terms of greatness - mastering a defensive form seems greater to me.
"Great warrior? Wars not make one great."
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Old 06-24-2006, 01:12 PM   #5
Lantzen
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Killing form because he need to master other form before he could use it
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Old 06-24-2006, 01:24 PM   #6
DarthOxyClean
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zat
Killing form because he need to master other form before he could use it
Quote:
Originally Posted by MachineCult
I believe the creator of the killing form is greater, he mastered the classic form first, then he created the killing form, and then he mastered that = Greater.

You both have a good point there.

For example, Vapaad is the completed form of Juyo, which was incomplete for a long time. Windu had to master Juyo before he could even try to create Vapaad.

But look at how Obi-Wan has mastered Soresu, while also implementing Shii-Cho and Ataru into his attacks.

I guess by mastering a certain form, you will have the knowledge and the skill needed to add elements of other forms into the form that you have mastered, and therefore greatly improving your attack.


Tell me what you regard as your greatest strength, so I will know how best to undermine you. Tell me of your greatest fear, so I will know which I must force you to face. Tell me what you cherish most, so I will know what to take from you. And tell me what you crave, so that I might deny you.

Last edited by DarthOxyClean; 06-25-2006 at 10:55 AM.
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Old 06-25-2006, 08:19 AM   #7
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Of course im have a good point, it's because im right
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Old 06-25-2006, 08:57 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zat
Of course im have a good point, it's because im right
Zat and DarthOxyClean, why don't you read post #2,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
I believe the creator of the killing form is greater, he mastered the classic form first, then he created the killing form, and then he mastered that = Greater.



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Old 06-25-2006, 10:53 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MachineCult
Zat and DarthOxyClean, why don't you read post #2,
Fine. I'll edit my post.


Better?


Tell me what you regard as your greatest strength, so I will know how best to undermine you. Tell me of your greatest fear, so I will know which I must force you to face. Tell me what you cherish most, so I will know what to take from you. And tell me what you crave, so that I might deny you.
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Old 06-25-2006, 12:08 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthOxyClean
Fine. I'll edit my post.


Better?
I'm getting a bit sick of your attitute, OxyClean. I was merely pointing out the fact that you totally disregarded my post and when Zat made a point Identical to mine, and you told him that he made a good point.



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Old 06-25-2006, 01:01 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MachineCult
I'm getting a bit sick of your attitute, OxyClean. I was merely pointing out the fact that you totally disregarded my post and when Zat made a point Identical to mine, and you told him that he made a good point.
I wasn't trying to be a smartass, ok? I'm sorry that I forgot about your post, and I couldn't tell by your post whether you were angry or not. I am sorry if I upset you, but you have to understand, your post confused me. And, yes, I pointed out his post (which was identical to yours) instead of yours, but does it really matter?? Yours is a great point, but I quoted his because I didn't think it would matter to you. I guess I was wrong. Sorry for seeming like a smartass, but I really wasn't trying to be.


Tell me what you regard as your greatest strength, so I will know how best to undermine you. Tell me of your greatest fear, so I will know which I must force you to face. Tell me what you cherish most, so I will know what to take from you. And tell me what you crave, so that I might deny you.
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Old 06-26-2006, 02:46 PM   #12
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Chill guys, lets get back to the topic.

Well, I personally think Mace is greater. Well obviously to be the creator of any functional form one has to be the master of at least one form, and deep understanding of styles and xp on what "other" people out there would use.

Vapaad is an extremely hard form to even learn, not to mention master, and one can only imagine its difficulty of creation. It takes intense training to even try to learn the form, or else. Remember many Vapaad wielders turn to the dark side. Sure its an "enhanced verson" of some pre-existing forms if you might call that, but what isn't? Most things are built on understanding of the old.

However, even master have different grades and levels. Obi is definitely on the high end of Mastery. Though I am sure learning and training in Soresu is definitely easier, relatively.
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Old 06-26-2006, 07:22 PM   #13
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Same here, and I dont know if this is of any relevance but... Mace killed Jango with his Vaapad form, a feat that Obi attempted but failed with the Sorceau form.
Mace defeated Palpatine a massive feat! Obi on the otherhand barely escaped his encounters with Dooku alive. Thats my opinion.
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Old 06-26-2006, 07:34 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ExileRevan
Same here, and I dont know if this is of any relevance but... Mace killed Jango with his Vaapad form, a feat that Obi attempted but failed with the Sorceau form.
Mace defeated Palpatine a massive feat! Obi on the otherhand barely escaped his encounters with Dooku alive. Thats my opinion.

The reason for that might be because Vapaad is an agressive form, while Soresu is almost purely defensive. But it also might be that Obi-Wan is weaker than Windu, or that Obi-Wan is more patient during battles than Windu. I personally have no idea which is right, which is why I posted this thread in the first place, so I could hear other peoples opinions.

@exilerevan: I never thought of it like that before. Good point.


Tell me what you regard as your greatest strength, so I will know how best to undermine you. Tell me of your greatest fear, so I will know which I must force you to face. Tell me what you cherish most, so I will know what to take from you. And tell me what you crave, so that I might deny you.
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Old 06-27-2006, 12:21 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthOxyClean
@exilerevan: I never thought of it like that before. Good point.
Thanks, I just thought of that XD
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Old 06-28-2006, 07:29 PM   #16
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Well, killing power is not the only important thing, I can give you that.

The best way would be let Obi and Mace fight it out(when both of them are at their prime), which would not be possable.
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Old 07-01-2006, 04:00 PM   #17
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we never really see mace at his prime he's about 50 when we see him fight anyways my thoughts are the all around obi-wan one because the jedi are ment to capture and not kill there prisoners... and obi-wan rules i like it when he blocks the shots in ep2 from the droids took me bout 2 weeks to teach myself to do that now i always use it to hit people
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Old 07-01-2006, 05:18 PM   #18
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Nah, Kyle, Jedi get better with age. Mace was at his prime during the Clone Wars, he had mastered his style of combat and achieved the highest rank attainable by a Jedi, read Shatterpoint, he pwns.



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Old 07-02-2006, 09:21 AM   #19
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ye i guess like dooku's like 70 abd he still kicks so i guess where back to the drawing board who is better?! then my guess is mace because he beets sidious and yoda says that obi-wan isn't strong enough so it's Master Windu
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Old 07-02-2006, 01:10 PM   #20
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Well they get better with age, when it comes to the force. But physically they would get weaker as they get really old. As much as one might think otherwise saberplay does rely on physical body a bit.
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Old 07-03-2006, 04:15 AM   #21
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Well, in the movies the jedi's strength doesn't seem to decrease with their age - Yoda is still rather ... energetic ... and in Ep2 we see Dooku overpowering Obi-Wan in a saber lock with merely a smile on his face.
"A jedi's strength flows form the Force to him"
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Old 07-03-2006, 01:17 PM   #22
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Well, Yoda is of the [censored] species and they live a long long time, so he is old, but not that old (well even yaddle get to live in a hole for 100 years with little change physically). But yeah yoda seems to be quite energetic.
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Old 07-03-2006, 06:49 PM   #23
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hi i am back!!!................... anyways i think the creator of a killing form is better because 1# the classic way may not be the best, and to it takes much more skill to create and master a skill on your own then to learn a skill that is taught from somebody who has already mastered it.



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Old 07-04-2006, 11:03 AM   #24
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I would have to say the master of the classical form. Only because if you give two jedi equal time to do both tasks, the master of the classical form has more time to focus on one form only. That way he can truly master it.

While the creator has to first learn all the basic styles of attack and he even has to touch base with the classical style, and then he can create his "killing" form. Which by the time it's all said and done, he wont be able to truly master his new made form. He will be more of a adept in every form, instead of a master in one single form.

But again, that could be the Classical masters weakness, because he focuses on one form only he may be lacking in other forms that need to be used when necessary.

A really great question to ask tho!


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Old 07-04-2006, 02:21 PM   #25
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Well the counter-theory is that a classic form have been around so long that others might already have knowledge and information on it, including how to counter (or try to counter) and built-in weakness. The new form will be somewhat immune to these problems, giving people ample time to develop and master it.
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Old 07-05-2006, 12:11 PM   #26
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hmm, i think the thing about the simple form is that it's simple but effective and obi-wan masterd it, you only really see him using it against droids and anikan(but with ankian obi-wan doesnt want to hurt him) the thing about the simple form is that it works and it's obviously overconfidences the other then kills them like with maul and Ankian
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Old 07-05-2006, 03:20 PM   #27
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Well, we know Anakin's mastery of forms should not be as l33t as Obi, and we don't know what level of Mastery Maul has, and I don't have details on Maul's forms and training(someone fill it in?)

But The Maul's case is more of a surprise attack, as I think at that moment Qui is still more skilled than Obi.

As for Anakin, even if they are evenly matched, Anakin is in a somewhat confused state(being not fully into the darkside yet) so Obi did have an advantage.

Then again there is hardly a fight in this world where it is "fair" per se. Oh, and Luck, its part of the Force.
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