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Old 05-01-2006, 04:21 PM   #1
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Nation wide Hispanic rallies today

What are your thoughts and opinions on them. I'm personally iffy on there cause, but lets here some thoughts.


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Old 05-01-2006, 05:48 PM   #2
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I want to know why they're not demonstrating against their own corrupt government.

Afterall, the US is a pressure relief valve for dissent in Mexico.

I think they're cowards, personally. They should protest in Mexico first, not enough criticism has been leveled to that steaming pile.

Oh and they should have a little more respect and shelve that ugly flag of theres, yeah I said it...it's an ugly flag and I hate it.
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Old 05-01-2006, 06:00 PM   #3
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Old 05-01-2006, 06:54 PM   #4
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I pretty much agree with Knight. If they're running away from their country, why are they complaining here? Why not stay where they came from and complain to their government.
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Old 05-01-2006, 09:00 PM   #5
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Very few this far North were asinine enough to pull **** like that but still some demonstrated, pisses me off but they have the right to despite the fact that many of them aren't legal citizens
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Old 05-01-2006, 09:03 PM   #6
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Well first off, I saw this in my own town. And what I didn't like was that parents had pulled their kids out of class to march. We're not talking about high school kids, but grade schoolers. They have no idea what's going on, they should be in school learning. Which makes me wonder why they never march on the weekends. I just think that all their rallies are doing is turning people off to what they have to say.


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Old 05-01-2006, 09:03 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Sir Knight
I want to know why they're not demonstrating against their own corrupt government.
I think that's a great point. Why not protest in a country that you're actually a CITIZEN of if your family is living in poverty and starving to death. If some Americans crossed over into Mexico and clogged their streets with protesters, what do you think would happen to them...

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Originally Posted by Good Sir Knight
Oh and they should have a little more respect and shelve that ugly flag of theres, yeah I said it...it's an ugly flag and I hate it.
Why the hell do they fly their flags anyway? If they like the place they came from so much why'd they leave it?
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Old 05-01-2006, 09:13 PM   #8
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*scratches head*

This whole situation is odd, and needs to be resolved quickly.

Protest wherever you want, just get the problem fixed for good.




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Old 05-02-2006, 12:42 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Windu
*scratches head*

This whole situation is odd, and needs to be resolved quickly.

Protest wherever you want, just get the problem fixed for good.
Windu is right. I've gone back and forth on this issue and I'm not even sure that I have an answer.

What I do know is that if all these people have enough gusto to cause a nuisance here, why then wouldn't they protest for the thousands of disenfranchised and starving in their own country? Seems like common sense to me, regardless of how bad you think it is in America, it's a cake walk compared to the slums of Mexico City....unless you have connections.

Not to mention, Mexico hasn't been so inviting to it's Guatemalen neighbors either.

I can just see Vincente` Fox lounging on his boat, smug at the situation as thousands of his people rot in poverty, corruption and now chaos. (cartels)

I smell arrogance and it's a shame because either way you go about this situation, you're always going to feel bad because it's a people problem...literally.
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Old 05-02-2006, 06:08 AM   #10
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It's sad really. This huge group of people, here illegally, are already a burden on the people here legally and the tax system. And here this bill comes around, which would make it EASIER for them to become legal citizens at the cost of making it a felony to be here illegally. So what do these ignorant people do? Attempt to burden and hurt the economy even more, just to 'prove a point.' It's pathetic. What a way to show support for the country they are trying to mooch off of. Utterly pathetic
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Old 05-02-2006, 11:55 AM   #11
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Are the protestors all illegal, as people here appear to be implying? I thought the protestors were legal immigrants?

I can;t imagine that if you were an illegal immigrant in a sucky low paid job your employer would be very understanding if you took the day off... surely they'd just fire you or break your legs?

Whole situation seems messed up to me. I get what a lot of the protestors are trying to do... trying to show the contribution they, as immigrants in a land of immigrants, make to the country - but it just seems to me to be more likely to make people anti their cause than pro it.

Every time any politicians stir up the issue of immigration (though this time it does mostly seem to be with good intentions) it all becomes a confused, emotional mess. It seems like right now people are equating "mexican immigrant" with "illegal immigrant"... and i don't know the figures, but there must be more legal hispanic residents than illegal ones.



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Old 05-02-2006, 01:07 PM   #12
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No, they're not all illegal...but the vast majority of them are. And it's very easy to equate "illegal immigrant" with "Mexican immigrant" because the vast majority of illegal immigrants in the United States are from Mexico.

There are several things that anger me about these protests - the main among them being that these are immigrants who entered our nation illegally and are now demanding rights under the US Constitution, and the other being the bedfellows of the protestors. These protests are being organized/funded by:

-Racist organizations (the Mexica Movement, La Raza, the Aztalan movement, MEChA)
-Communist organizations (International ANSWER, among others - it's no coincidence that the big protest is on May Day)

I go into greater detail in my blog...


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Old 05-04-2006, 10:54 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Sir Knight
Oh and they should have a little more respect and shelve that ugly flag of theres, yeah I said it...it's an ugly flag and I hate it.
I rather like the look of the red, white and blue with stars on a field of blue.

In every shot of protests I've seen, most of the flags are American. Surely this isn't the "ugly flag" you hate?

Moreover, every single person I know who attended the local demonstrations was not only a legal immigrant, but born in the United States. The protests are so much about illegal immigrants as it is against the apparent discrimination that exists against people of Hispanic descent. Whether those descended from white Europeans want to admit it or not, Hispanic-Americans are a very large population (and they are actually descended from original Americans -hence the brown skin) within our nation.

The days of American being for whites only is passed. Get over yourselves and grow up. The culture of fascism and isolationism that seems to be growing among whites in the U.S. is beginning to resemble 1930's Germany.


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Old 05-04-2006, 12:45 PM   #14
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More tired Nazi analogies? Give me a break.

It's not a racial issue, and the fact that people think they're facing racial discrimination doesn't make it true. It's a legal issue for so many - it's not US citizens that are making it a racial issue, it's the protest groups such as La Raza and the Mexica movement that are bringing race into it. It seems like a racial issue because most illegal immigrants come from Mexico, but it isn't racist for people to want our laws to be enforced. I'm as much against illegal immigration from Mexico as I am from China or even Europe, and nearly everyone I talk to about the issue thinks the same way.

We have a legal process for immigrating to the United States. No, it's not easy, but that's no excuse to break the law...and let's face it: no matter how many signs these protestors carry that say "We are not criminals", when their first act in entering the United States is to break our immigration laws, that makes them criminal, no matter how anyone perceives it.

America has never been whites-only, and it has been years since the majority of Americans has thought of it that way. But that does not diminish the necessity of having immigrants who assimilate into American language & culture, and who aren't mooching off of our social services without paying taxes.

As for the flags at the protests, I believe that there is a reason there are so many American flags at the protests recently: when they first started protesting, they showed us their true character. They showed us that their first allegiance is to Mexico by marching under the Mexican flag. In fact, many of the protestors out here in California weren't as much protesting the proposed immigration laws as they were protesting the fact that the SW United States were part of the USA.

After the backlash from that initial protest, the organizers learned that the people of America won't long tolerate non-citizens marching in the streets under a foreign flag. They told people to leave their Mexican flags at home, and they passed out American flags. I honestly believe that every American flag I see at these protests is an insincere expression of solidarity with the US because for the protestors, projecting a positive image in the press is more important than honestly expressing their beliefs.

You may see the enforcement of our immigration laws as "fascism and isolationism", but for one thing, by enforcing our borders, we aren't doing anything that any other nation wouldn't do under the same circumstances (I challenge you to go and try to enter Mexico illegally from the South...see how far you'll get), and for another, border enforcement is the practical thing to do. If we allow just anyone to enter our borders, we have to take whatever comes, whether it's terrorists or criminals (illegal immigrants make up a very large number of incarcerated criminals here in CA, and in other states) or people carrying communicable diseases.

Border enforcement is the right thing, the practical thing...the common sense thing. The fact that we've let it go this far doesn't mean we should let it go farther. And the idea that we should forgive people for breaking our laws just because they've been doing it for a long time or there are a lot of them is ludicrous. At this point, simply deporting all of the illegal immigrants from the United States is unpractical, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do what we can before the problem drags our economy down into oblivion.


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Old 05-04-2006, 01:35 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rccar328
More tired Nazi analogies? Give me a break.
Nope. No breaks. This nation is fast becoming an isolationist and bigot-driven country. We fear brown-skinned people because they're different. The talk-radio stations and right wing media outlets are filled with hatred and discrimination for Hispanics and other foreigners of "brown-skin" be they immigrants or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rccar328
It's not a racial issue, and the fact that people think they're facing racial discrimination doesn't make it true.
It *is* a racial issue. Whether you choose to acknowledge it as one or not. The majority of the protesters don't appear to be illegal immigrants. They appear to be U.S. citizens that are concerned about how the white-run nation is viewing Latinos. A big part of it has to do with so-called immigration reform, but this has been a long-time comming. The immigration issue is only the catalyst for a larger issue: one of perceived racial discrimination towards Hispanics from the white leadership and majority. Whether or not there truly is actual discrimination or racism is something that remains to be seen. But what is very obvious is that Latinos in the United States think there is.

There's no denial that the borders should be more secure, but there has been, to date, not one single realistic answer to solve the problem. Border fences won't work -why would they? These are just wire and certainly not impervious to even the most rudimentary wire cutters. A concrete wall shouldn't even be thought of -it'll cost more to construct and maintain that simply allowing the illegals in. Shooting them isn't an option, but is mentioned on nearly every right-wing nut talk show by some dumb-ass or another calling in.

I challenge anyone to quantitatively show that illegal immigration is any worse today that it was 50 years ago. There's a reason why it continues and our own nation is to blame. We tolerate businesses that depend on cheap, illegal labor. Instead of making new laws and new policies of dealing with the boder, we should focus our efforts on ensuring that existing laws are enforced and businesses/corporations that are hiring illegals are consistently fined and penalized. Legislators simply don't have the balls to do this since the political action organizations and lobbists that control the funds they get for election/re-election are, in turn, run and controlled by the very businesses and corporations that depend on cheap, illegal labor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rccar328
America has never been whites-only,
Right. We all believe you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rccar328
(I challenge you to go and try to enter Mexico illegally from the South...see how far you'll get),
Been there, done that. Stayed two days. Drank cerveza with a Federale at a gas station.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rccar328
Border enforcement is the right thing, the practical thing...the common sense thing.
Of course it is... but where is the plan that is realistic? It would be far cheaper to eliminate the reason illegals come to the United States -make it difficult for them to get the jobs they do. They'll go back on their own and the impact on the border will have decreased to the point that incursions will be noticed and the U.S. Border Patrol will have the ability to react with far greater speed and efficiency. All without a fence or wall or having to "shoot" people coming across. Pressuring the businesses that hire illegals will have the effect also of allowing our Border Patrol to concentrate its efforts on controlling the drug smuggling that occurs, since less people will be crossing for jobs.

I'm not disagreeing with you that the border doesn't need to be secured. I'm disagreeing with the overall, apparent racial overtones this whole issue has taken. Anyone that denies these overtones exist is just plain ignorant and any opinion they have on the matter should be intellectually suspect. These racial overtones exist on both sides to be sure, but on the Hispanic/Latino side they are perceived to be true and they are reacting to them. On the white/anglo side, many seem simply not to recognize what they are saying and how they are saying it. Others are overtly racist, demanding such nonsense things like exclusion of Spanish language programs and ESL programs, as if denying that a large percentage of the United States is Hispanic/Latino (and natively born!) makes them go away.


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Old 05-04-2006, 03:20 PM   #16
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I still don't see how it's a racial issue. What are they protesting? The immigration reforms? If they're legal citizens why do they care? How are they being discriminated? The only difference I notice about this issue is that politicians are drawing attention to it for votes.

Quote:
Shooting them isn't an option, but is mentioned on nearly every right-wing nut talk show by some dumb-ass or another calling in.
I don't see why it shouldn't be an option. We're allowed to shoot trespessers on our property (within certain limits and depending on state), why not shoot tresspassers into our country. And I like to think I'm not some "crazy right-wing nut."

But I do agree about the companies hiring illegal immigrants. They should be fined a buttload of money, and laws need to be enforced. No jobs = less illegal immigrants.
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Old 05-04-2006, 04:13 PM   #17
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You're saying you don't see why shooting women and children (it's not just men) who mean no harm -who are only seeking to better themselves- shouldn't be an option? And you maintain this isn't a "racial issue?" It may not be racially motivated, but surely you can see how American Latinos would see that it might be. I don't see anyone advocating shooting Canadians -they do enter our country illegally from time to time for various reasons, just not in the same numbers as Mexicans.


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Old 05-04-2006, 04:23 PM   #18
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If someone is trespassing, then yeah, sure, why not. They're illegally entering the country (Canadians, Mexicans, whoever).
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Old 05-04-2006, 04:42 PM   #19
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Quote:
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If someone is trespassing, then yeah, sure, why not.
Maybe because life is sacred and few footprints on your property by a couple of women and children trying to find a better life doesn't deserve the death penalty?

You're yanking my chain, right?


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Old 05-04-2006, 04:56 PM   #20
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Real progressive movement there...

A bullet for every man, woman, and child who enters the U.S. illegally.

50 points if you get them in the chest. 100 if it's a headshot.




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Old 05-04-2006, 07:04 PM   #21
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And rccar thought I was simply making a "tired analogy?" He doesn't see why there are those that are concerned we are reaching a point of isolationist fascism (or fascist isolationism)?

Kill 'em all, let god sort 'em out, eh?

Pathetic.


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Old 05-04-2006, 07:48 PM   #22
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Killing isn't the answer unless they shoot at you, shipping them back is the only good solution
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Old 05-04-2006, 07:50 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samnmax221
Killing isn't the answer unless they shoot at you, shipping them back is the only good solution
How do you suggest shipping back 11-20 million people...
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Old 05-04-2006, 07:52 PM   #24
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Air transports the only humane thing you could do while being economical, this is however after you put up the wall so they can't get back in ilegally.
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Old 05-04-2006, 07:56 PM   #25
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Air transports the only humane thing you could do while being economical, this is however after you put up the wall so they can't get back in ilegally.
Do you know how much it would cost to round up, hold, feed, clothe, and fly 11-20 million people by airplane?

And what do you do with all their kids who are U.S. citizens? Yeah, let's take all these kids' parents away and leave the kids in a country without their family. Sounds good to me.
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Old 05-04-2006, 07:58 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samnmax221
Killing isn't the answer unless they shoot at you, shipping them back is the only good solution
And then they walk back across the border. Repeat.

I really don't care if it's a bus load of orphans trying to cross the border, they're not getting in until they go through the legal routes. No one tries to sneak across, no one gets killed, the end.

I guess you can go ahead and call me a Nazi or something. Whatever makes you sleep better at night. I'm not a racist or anything, I work with several different people of ethnic backgrounds at work, and we're all a happy family.
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Old 05-04-2006, 08:15 PM   #27
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I'm sure theres a better way to stop a bus load of orphans from crossing the border then blowing them away.
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Old 05-04-2006, 08:18 PM   #28
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I don't think we should start shooting people who cross our border illegally...except for the drug runners who have been shooting at our border patrol & at the minutemen.

Now, as an avid listener to talk radio, I will acknowledge that there are some freaks out there who are being bigots...but from what I've heard, the majority of people (whether talk radio host or listeners, or otherwise) are not. Most of them just want our laws to be enforced...and there is nothing racist about that. It's not like we're advocating an anti-Hispanic version of the Chinese Exclusion Act or anything - we just want to keep people from entering the United States illegally.

I agree with everything you said about America's share in the blame...but taking action against businesses that hire illegal immigrants can't be the only step. We have to have comprehensive immigration reform that includes securing the border (step 1), imposing stiff penalties on businesses that hire illegal aliens (step 2), and putting measures in place to deport people who are in the US illegally (step 3). Now, I know that it isn't practical to deport 12 million illegal immigrants, but at the least, we should start deporting the illegal immigrants who have been incarcerated. Our law enforcement agencies need to be taking a tough stance toward illegal immigrants, no matter what race: if you commit a crime in the US and you aren't here legally, it's automatic deportation.


There are other aspects to the debate that get trickier, at least as far as perceived racism goes, namely the language debate. Personally, I believe that if you want to immigrate to the United States, you should learn English. Let's face it: a nation with a single language works more smoothly than a nation where everything has to be translated into this language and that language and the other language. On top of that, the fact that so many children are coming into our public school system with only a rudimentary knowledge of English is hurting our school systems (add to that the fact that the students' parents cannot help them with their schoolwork because the parents don't speak English, either, and we have a recipe for disaster).


Personally, I think that these racist overtones that you're speaking of don't exist to the extent that you think they do. As I keep saying, it's a legal issue, not a racial issue. But with these protestors marching under foreign flags, shoving the issue in our faces, they themselves are making it a racial issue. Whether people go into the debate with racial biases or not, the audacity of these protests and the anti-white racism on the part of many of the protestors, combined with the fact that the majority of the protestors are Hispanic, either amplifies already existing racial biases, or makes it easier for people with no racial bias to view the issue racially.

As far as the exclusion of ESL programs, that is a completely different debate - some experts say ESL programs are more effective, others say that immersion programs are more effective...and for ESL programs, there is debate over what kind of programs should be used.

But as for the fascism thing, I don't believe Americans fear brown-skinned people because they're different. I think Americans fear brown-skinned people who are entering our nation illegally by the millions because they pose a threat to the economic security of our nation. I think Americans fear having an open border because of all of the ways that can and is contributing to the downfall of our nation, whether it be terrorism, drug trafficking, or illegal immigrant workers. Enforcing our laws is not racist, and it is not fascist. Enforcing our border is not isolationist - the US can still have relations with and do business with Mexico...we just don't need millions of people coming across our border illegally.

As for your 'challenge,' you're right - illegal immigration is not a new issue. But the fact that our government didn't do anything about it 50 or 70 years ago, when they should have (the problem would have been much more manageable then), that doesn't mean that we shouldn't do anything about it today. However, my greatest fear on the issue is that the politicians will continue to capitulate, and nothing substantive will be done...and then we'll be having this debate again in a few years, and the problem will be even worse than it is today.


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Old 05-04-2006, 08:36 PM   #29
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I don't see how race enters into the equation, unless you force it in. The bottom line is: these illegal immigrants are breaking the law by being here. Now, when someone breaks the law, they have to expect consequences, in this case, deportation, possible bodily harm during capture, and possible imprisonment. And them being immigrants doesn't excuse them from being shot for trespassing either, anyone, whether they be black, white, hispanic, or Asian, can be shot when they trespass on someone's property, whether it's owned by a private owner or by the U.S government. [/crayon]



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Old 05-04-2006, 09:25 PM   #30
swphreak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rccar328
There are other aspects to the debate that get trickier, at least as far as perceived racism goes, namely the language debate. Personally, I believe that if you want to immigrate to the United States, you should learn English. Let's face it: a nation with a single language works more smoothly than a nation where everything has to be translated into this language and that language and the other language. On top of that, the fact that so many children are coming into our public school system with only a rudimentary knowledge of English is hurting our school systems (add to that the fact that the students' parents cannot help them with their schoolwork because the parents don't speak English, either, and we have a recipe for disaster).
On that note, I am reminded of a movie called The Second Civil War. It's a somewhat amusing movie involving a U.S. "overrun" with immigrants and stuff. I'd suggest Netflixing it if you're ever bored.

Sure, I don't think there'd be any need to shoot a busload of orphans trying to drive in illegally, but border patrol can always shoot the tires off and then turn them away. Then the next day, they try again. Repeat. Frankly, they just need to come up with more advanced fences or something, and stricter border enforcement. How about trenches? With sharp edges.
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Old 05-04-2006, 11:43 PM   #31
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Shooting them is not acceptable. They're not endangering anyone just by being here, just by crossing the border. I don't think it's justifiable to shoot anyone unless they create a direct and immediate threat to someone's life.

Obviously, a large amount of illegals who are here are at or around poverty level because they are largely an unskilled workforce and thus they will use safety net services much more than those with better jobs. Because their incomes are so low compared to the average citizen's, their ability to pay taxes to support their use of the system is diminished, if they pay taxes at all. The large families many immigrants from Central and South America have put a massive strain on the educational institutions of the states they take up residence in, which is bad. It's not as bad for Texas, because there is no state income tax here. Other states which depend on personal income tax would be in deep trouble though. See California.

I think that the illegals that are already here who have children should be allowed to stay if they want - it's wrong to break families up. I think that there should be *harsh* enforcement of the work laws so that it will not longer be possible for them to make money here, maybe even lifting the corporate veil once in a while to make sure that companies know the government means business. I think that after that happens, a wall would no longer be necessary - there'd be no economic incentive to come to America.

It's not a race issue, but I can see why some would think it is - the vast majority of those who immigrate illegally are from Central and South America, something like 85%+. Still, if legal immigrants or persons of Hispanic descent want to protest against racism, they should do that instead of defending people who are, in essence, stealing from them. A very odd thing to do...


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