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Thread: I'm sorry to say, but Malak is cooler than the three scrubs in this game [SPOILERS]
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Old 08-09-2006, 02:30 AM   #41
lessthanjake2
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Different modus operandi for Malak's Sith Empire and the remnant Sith factions under Nihilus and Sion. The Empire was a strong organization with a huge standing army and navy, able to move openly and confront its enemies (Republic, Jedi) in open war.

Sion/Nihilus were instead operating in secret to eliminate the Jedi without being bothered or challenged by the Republic. They were powerful, but not strong enough to take on the Republic military head on in open war since their factions were not large enough for that, even thoug the Republic was severely weakened. And they had no interest in doing so, since the Jedi were their chief concern.

If you are operating in secret it is an advantage not to be seen and make your presence known everywhere.
No, I realize WHY, just saying that it made them seem like less of a threat. You yourself basically just said they werent as strong as the Sith from KOTOR 1. I dont know. Maybe it is just me, but I really thought it was cool to be able to walk around cities where there were enemy soldiers there too.

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The balance act between telling/showing everything clearly, and offering replay value. I'm not saying TSL got that balance perfect, but in my opinion the game did have somewhat higher replay value than what KotOR1 did.
I meant to include that in my last post in response to you saying you like TSL. I like it a lot too and I was gonna say that if I were to replay KOTOR 1 or 2 again, i'd probably go with 2. It is a good game, I just dont get the same feeling of taking on an awesome enemy as I did in KOTOR 1.

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This, in combination with what he reveals on Malachor if you pick the correct responses (since you can't pick all the available ones in a single encounter) makes me feel that he is both jealous at and obsessed with the Exile which is why he hunts her in particular. Kreia still has a strong mental hold over him even though he managed to cast her down, making him jealous of the Exile. And Obsession/infatuation is a weakness, so he wants to rid himself of that weakness (though he's somewhat conflicted about it, as the "final battle" on Malachor shows.).

Not "in your face" obvious perhaps, but in my opinion the indications are there. Sion wants all Jedi dead, but has a special interest in the Exile.
See I feel like hes got a special interest in Kreia, and maybe by default is interested in you because of that.

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Well, they were wearing the uniforms of Nihilus faction. Nihilus assassins and dark jedi have the "flat" face mask with small dark eye slits. Sions assassins have the face shaped masks with big red goggle lenses. Though I suppose that's not something you know during the first playthough.
Yeah, by that time you dont know that at all. I did my first playthrough a long time ago, but I think I originally thought those were Sion's guys.

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In my opinion that's just part of uncovering the plot as you go. If you would immediately know everything about the motivations and allegiences of Vaklu, Tobin and Nihilus as soon as you arrive in the Onderon system then you wouldn't have to play to figure out what's going on, and the choices on Onderon would be much easier since you'd know from the start that Vaklu was the "evil" choice. (As it is now you can side with Vaklu without getting any darkside points, and the only ill effect resulting from it is you'll have no choice but to kill Kavar later in the game whether you want to or not.)
Uncovering the plot as you go along is cool, but not when something happens when you first go to Onderon and then the explanation for it is only hinted at during the end sequence of the game. It should at least be hinted at later on during your first Onderon visit.

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Which is not necessarily a bad thing, if you ask me. Adversaries who are not evil (or even acts with good intent, though that's not the case here) can be more interesting than stereotypical evil villains.

Visas may surrender and seemingly switch sides, but you have no way of knowing her loyalties or if she will betray you at a crucial moment until the game is nearly over. Having her along would be a gamble. (At least it would if you had any choice in the matter. But such a lack of choice could just as well be seen as an indication that she is plot critical and required for a betrayal further down the road. ) It didn't turn out that way, but during your first playthrough you wouldn't know that.
Meh I never got the feeling she would betray me. I guess I thought about it but I doubted it cause she was doing all that "My life for yours" stuff.

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Yes, the Lord Malak Displeasure Delegations. After the first two planets it was actually more surprising that there wasn't such a group waiting for you on Manaan than it would have been if they were there. I actually had to look around carefully so I hadn't missed them.

Again a difference in how they operate. Malak's forces are like him, brute force head on, no trickery or deceit. Thus they stand out in the open where you can see them a mile away and prepare well before the confrontation. While the Assassins make an effort not to be seen until they strike, and won't waste time chatting before attacking, allowing their enemy time to prepare.
I am not concerned with how they attack, its just that you had to deal with attacks from the main adversaries more in KOTOR 1 than in TSL.

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In my opinion it would have been better if the whole "Kill the Force" part had been skipped entirely and her now secondary motives had been her main ones. It would have felt more believable since she was cast from both the Jedi and Sith and embraced the philosophy of neither. The motives outlined in this conversation:
Yeah it wouldve been better. I also sorta wouldve liked it if it werent so obvious that she was manipulating you all along. I mean I knew it almost right away. It didnt have to be a "You are Revan" surprise, but it shouldve been a "Wow I totally didnt understand Kreia until now" moment.

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If he is, they it's not very apparent, since for 99.9% of the game he does not show anything else but the surface. The only crack in the facade that can be seen is when he lies dying on the floor. And by then the game is essentially over.
THats because during the course of the game hes already totally on the dark side. But the interesting nature of his character comes in the fact that he used to be a hero of the Republic. IMO thats what made Revan so interesting too. He wasnt just a redeemed Dark Lord (assuming you go light side at the end). He was a savior, turned enemy, turned savior of the Republic.
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Old 08-09-2006, 08:34 AM   #42
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well iv never played the first game, but iv read that malak is a more traditional sith lord, Darth Nilius seemed really cool, and i was dreaded when i had to fight him, I wiped the floor with him! sions was a complete wimp too, I liked the twist for Darth Traya/Kreia, but she went down quick too. It is kinda weird how all the characters are built up, and then complete wimps ingame
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Old 08-09-2006, 07:30 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Niftyeye
well iv never played the first game, but iv read that malak is a more traditional sith lord, Darth Nilius seemed really cool, and i was dreaded when i had to fight him, I wiped the floor with him! sions was a complete wimp too, I liked the twist for Darth Traya/Kreia, but she went down quick too. It is kinda weird how all the characters are built up, and then complete wimps ingame
I think it's as much of a problem with unbalancing equipment as it is a problem with too weak enemies. You find enormous heaps of very powerful items in the game to equip your party with, while most enemies in the game fight nearly naked. They have their (non-upgraded) weapon and, at most, a body armor (though most enemies with unique appearances don't even have armor).

When you cruise around with fully upgraded armor, weapons, implants making you immune to everything and other gear boosting your attributes things are bound to become easy. At least I found the game harder early on when you hadn't accumulated so much powerful items and upgrades yet.

If you think the game is too easy you can handicap yourself. Try fighting the enemies like they fight you, with only a weapon (and some grenades), armor, an energy shield you're only allowed to use once per fight, and nothing more in the way of equipment, and see if it's still easy.


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Old 08-09-2006, 10:05 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
I think it's as much of a problem with unbalancing equipment as it is a problem with too weak enemies. You find enormous heaps of very powerful items in the game to equip your party with, while most enemies in the game fight nearly naked. They have their (non-upgraded) weapon and, at most, a body armor (though most enemies with unique appearances don't even have armor).

When you cruise around with fully upgraded armor, weapons, implants making you immune to everything and other gear boosting your attributes things are bound to become easy. At least I found the game harder early on when you hadn't accumulated so much powerful items and upgrades yet.

If you think the game is too easy you can handicap yourself. Try fighting the enemies like they fight you, with only a weapon (and some grenades), armor, an energy shield you're only allowed to use once per fight, and nothing more in the way of equipment, and see if it's still easy.
Yeah you are right about that one. I really love the upgrade system of KOTOR 2. I think it adds a totally new aspect to the game that KOTOR 1 didnt have. It makes skills worth it. But at the same time, it is the upgrades that makes the game too easy.
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Old 08-09-2006, 10:34 PM   #45
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One thing is sure, developers should have taken that into consideration and increase the difficulty.
You shouldn't have to fight with your hands tied to get a decent challenge.


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Old 08-19-2006, 01:26 PM   #46
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I think TSL's antagonists suffered mostly due to the game's focusing too heavily on the Exile. Think about it for a minute. Everything that happens in the game is in some way related to the exile and their involvement in the Mandalorian Wars, so much so that everything else seems to crach and burn around it.


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Old 08-30-2006, 03:21 PM   #47
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I prefer Malak, as he has a bigger role in the game than Sion or Nihilus. (I mean, seriously. You only see Nihilus ONCE in the game before you kill him, and Sion, two times before Malachor.) Traya was there for the entire game, but you didn't really know that. (Okay, the fact that she is a sith is ridiccolously obvious, but that's just guessing.) Malak on the other hand, you see him try to kill you in some way three times before you actually meet him, and then he kidnaps a team-member and reveals your identity, which emphasises his character. Then you get to the Star Forge assault, and the final battle with Malak, which seems hugely more climactic than the battle with Traya.
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Old 08-30-2006, 03:34 PM   #48
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Malak vs. Sion/Traya/Nihilus basically represents the battle of KotOR vs. TSL. Malak is far more of a traditional villain character, much like Darth Vader in fact. KotOR is just a far more clean cut, straightforward storyline.

TSL, on the other hand, is a LOT different, and consequently so are the villains. The TSL storyline is far more complex and subtle, and so are the villains. It's far less Star Wars-ish than KotOR, in my opinion, but that's not to say its not as good. It boils down to personal taste.

Those who like traditional Star Wars-esque stories will like KotOR and Malak more. They represent more direct confrontations. There is a real and recognizeable war in KotOR, with two well-defined sides. Those who are big into subtle stories are going to like TSL more- the sides in the "conflict" are far less clear, and in fact you don't have any idea who or what you're ULTIMATELY fighting, if anything, for most of the storyline.

So pretty much it's different villains for different storytelling styles.

Quote:
I think TSL's antagonists suffered mostly due to the game's focusing too heavily on the Exile. Think about it for a minute. Everything that happens in the game is in some way related to the exile and their involvement in the Mandalorian Wars, so much so that everything else seems to crach and burn around it.
Remember here that in the end, everything is guided by Darth Traya. She is the main villain, really, and her goals revolve around the Exile. That's why the Exile is such a big deal. S/he is the final goal of the Sith who really pulls the strings.


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Old 08-30-2006, 04:21 PM   #49
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Kreia said it, Malak is different of the Sith the Exile fought.

First, they haven't the same goal. Malak wanted to conquire the Republic, Sion and Nihilus wanted the death of the last Jedis, and Traya planed the death of the Force itself...

Malak's power was based on the Star Forge, which produced the fleet he needed to defeat the Republic and converted the energy of the Jedi into a Dark Side-power reserve. The others (except Sion maybe, because if he regenerated against the Exile, it was thanks to the DS energy of Korriban and Malachor) were strong enough in the Force to beat Malak without any artifice.

But we can't compare incomparable things. Malak was a conqueror, a warrior, who needed an innumerable fleet, the others were assassins who needed discretion, patience and cunning.

The own power of Malak is ridiculously inferior against the abilities of the three other Sith Lords.


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Old 08-30-2006, 06:19 PM   #50
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I prefer the TSL villains. They are far more complex and haunting than Malak, who was a very traditional villain, and not in a good way. And basically Malak is just a powerhungry thug with no tactical skill or finesse, as G0-T0 mentions in TSL. Sure, the jaw thing was pretty cool, but it really ruined it for me was the oh-so-evil laughter - they might as well have given him a black hat and a moustache to twirl... Yuck!

TSL's villains were far more interesting. Sion was a shattered person held together by will alone, yet had no humanity left in him, which becomes his ultimate downfall. And Traya is as deceptive as they come, while Nihilus is not just spooky and mysterious but the walking death incarnate. That you didn't see him much just added to how scary he was. And even after the Exile "kills" him, I STILL wonder about him... No, the TSL villains were definitely far more memorable.


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Old 09-04-2006, 03:58 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Jediphile
I prefer the TSL villains. They are far more complex and haunting than Malak, who was a very traditional villain, and not in a good way. And basically Malak is just a powerhungry thug with no tactical skill or finesse, as G0-T0 mentions in TSL. Sure, the jaw thing was pretty cool, but it really ruined it for me was the oh-so-evil laughter - they might as well have given him a black hat and a moustache to twirl... Yuck!

TSL's villains were far more interesting. Sion was a shattered person held together by will alone, yet had no humanity left in him, which becomes his ultimate downfall. And Traya is as deceptive as they come, while Nihilus is not just spooky and mysterious but the walking death incarnate. That you didn't see him much just added to how scary he was. And even after the Exile "kills" him, I STILL wonder about him... No, the TSL villains were definitely far more memorable.

I disagree.

Let's see:

Traya:
Kreia is a very good Characters, she has a plan ( a ridiculous one though) and she is cunning and smart.
But final boss, uber villain? No, that doesn't make it.
And her flying lightsaber style just looked ridiculous and sucked.
But she's the best out of the TSL villains.

Sion:
Alright. A big bad Sith who wants to slaughter every Jedi. Nothing else. He doesn't want power, he doesn't want anything. Except the death of all Jedi.
He's a minion, who doesn't really serve a purpose.

Nihilus:
Ah my favourite one...
Nihilus looks cool. No doubt. Intentions? Kill every living being.
Nihilus is no character, he is an abnomiation.
Where does he come from?
Well, the mandalorian war "created" him. And gave him the power to consume hole worlds just like that. Which makes him the most powerful being ever. Fortunately the Exile is immune to that power, and it just so happens Nihilus sucks in lightsaber combat. Lame.
IMO, we do not need villains with demi-good like powers in Star Wars. That is ridiculous.

Where is the tactical skill or finesse of the TSL villains? 2 of them are mindless monsters. One of them I admit is smart cunning and well done, but doesn't fit as the ultimate villain.

Malak's appearance is great, his voice is too. His dialogs are good, his background story with Revan is great, he leads an open war against the Republic not a "shadow war".

Malak ftw.
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Old 09-04-2006, 04:21 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Niftyeye:
well iv never played the first game, but iv read that malak is a more traditional sith lord, Darth Nilius seemed really cool, and i was dreaded when i had to fight him, I wiped the floor with him! sions was a complete wimp too, I liked the twist for Darth Traya/Kreia, but she went down quick too. It is kinda weird how all the characters are built up, and then complete wimps ingame.
-------------------------------------------------
Actually, none of those characters are so easy to beat unless you've been levelling up as you play the game. Remember that the PC is as weak or strong as you make it. If you cheat, then all your opponents may end up being ridiculously easy to defeat. I do have to note, though, that since Kreia seems to put you down so easily near the end, are you really defeating her in the core or does she just give up, feeling that her goals have finally been accomplished? Think about some of her comments in her backstory.
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Old 09-04-2006, 05:01 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
I do have to note, though, that since Kreia seems to put you down so easily near the end, are you really defeating her in the core or does she just give up, feeling that her goals have finally been accomplished? Think about some of her comments in her backstory.
I'd think she wants you to truly be able to beat her on your own and isn't holding back in the final battle. She does kill you after all if you don't win; she doesn't stop when you are near death.

She wants you to become stronger than her, and that battle struck me as the final test to end your "apprenticeship" to her. If you win she has succeeded: you are stronger than her. If you lose then you were weaker than she thought and suffered the consequences thereof.


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Old 09-04-2006, 08:01 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lessthanjacke2
What made Malak a good villain were things that these villains simply did not have. He was a constant threat to you, in that he blew up an entire world just to get you, and was having bounty hunters going after you and his apprentice etc etc. None of these villains were ever really a threat to you.
Stoffe -mkb- said it. What about Peragus? And if you don't remember, Sion [b]did[/i] have villains coming after you. All (or close to all) those invisible guys called "Sith Assassins" were his, and controlled by him. They were everywhere, trying to kill you; in fact, I think that they were appeared more than dark Jedi in K1.

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Originally Posted by lessthanjake2
not to mention that there were actual Sith soldiers walking around Taris, Manaan, and Korriban.
But those Sith soldiers actually had no interest in you personally, did they? They were an enemy, but they would have been attacking anyone if that person decided to demolish their bases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
As the "Last of the Jedi" you were next on Nihilus menu, and he did send Visas, his apprentice, off to fetch you. He just was a bit less theatric about it than Darth Malak was (and Visas was not as much of a two-bit thug as Darth Bandon was so you didn't need to kill her.)
That's quite right. Nihilus was not a world-conquering rampaging maniac who wanted to destroy everything in his path anyways, it was not his character. He was all about feeding off of force sensitives; however, I agree with those who say he really didn't have that much to his character. He was a bit too mysterious, in the way that there was almost nothing to be mysterious about... he just kind of shows up and tries to feed off of your force power, no explanation.

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Originally Posted by lessthanjake2
I doubt a majority of people who played TSL really understood it on the first playthrough. After playing through it a bunch more times, I for one will admit that I didnt really understand it my first run. The thing is that all the information IS there but many times you get only some of the information you need in a single playthrough. There are very important things that you only are told if you choose to do a certain thing.
I guess that is a matter of opinion - I happen to like games that are like that, if they are done well. Makes you think a lot, although I'm not necessarily referring to TSL when I say this. In fact, there wasn't really much I didn't get that wasn't essential to the story, or that I needed to know for it to make sense. (as much as it could make sense)

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Originally Posted by lessthanjake2
And as a result, WHILE you are playing the game you arent getting the feeling that Nihilus is after you.
So? Why is that bad? If it wasn't explained at the end, of him being after you, I would agree, but why is it necessary to know exactly who is after you and why from the very start?

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Originally Posted by lessthanjake2
Her uses for you are NOT clear. She wants to use you to end the force? But how? Thats something I STILL dont know after playing it many times.
Not until the very end, no. But she does drop hints, and you do discover more and more as the game goes on. She reveals her uses at the end, when you finally understand her true purpose, which is understandable. I understand your question of "how", but the Exile was merely said to be "the end of the Force", and seeing as TSL wasn't an end to the series (even without any cut content), I can only assume that it will be answered later.

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Originally Posted by lessthanjake2
It may be refreshing but Visas is the main thing Nihilus sends to fight you, but shes just NOT very evil or anything.
True, but is she even very evil at the beginning? She's little more than a force-sensitive slave, tortured by Nihilus and "broken." (to use the databank on the official site) She just carries out his bidding because he says so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
Malak is a good villain, just as much as Darth Vader is a good villain. But he is a good "antagonist's right hand" type of villain IMHO, not a good chief villain since he's not an evil mastermind. He's just a very powerful, but simple, enforcer. Scheming, calculating chief villains are more fun.
Quoted for emphasis. To use an example, was Sidious the one controlling the Empire or Vader? With the story of K1, Malak fit perfectly. But being as complex and mysterious as TSL was, I don't think they could have another brawny maniac for a main villian.

And what don't you understand about Kreia's scheme?

[quote=lessthanjake2]

Quote:
Originally Posted by lessthanjake2
And you can say what you want about Malak but the fact is that hes more than just a guy who is out to destroy stuff. Thats what he is on the surface, but his character has more to it than that due to his history
More to it like what? (not meant rudely)

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Originally Posted by lessthanjake2
No, I realize WHY, just saying that it made them seem like less of a threat. You yourself basically just said they werent as strong as the Sith from KOTOR 1. I dont know. Maybe it is just me, but I really thought it was cool to be able to walk around cities where there were enemy soldiers there too.
Well, Onderon was an example. And there were several other battles with lots of Sith forces. But beside that, that is the simple difference between the two games. It is not 4000 years before Yavin IV, it is now 3995 years. Times have changed, and the Sith Empire is not so much of an empire anymore. The story did not revolve around head-on confrontations with a powerful army in TSL, the story was much more personal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lessthanjake2
Uncovering the plot as you go along is cool, but not when something happens when you first go to Onderon and then the explanation for it is only hinted at during the end sequence of the game. It should at least be hinted at later on during your first Onderon visit.
Personally, I think it depends on how much stuff you want spoon-fed to you, and how often.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lessthanjake2
I am not concerned with how they attack, its just that you had to deal with attacks from the main adversaries more in KOTOR 1 than in TSL.
How do you figure that? Malak (I'm guessing that's what you mean when you say main adversaries) attacks you twice. Nihilus is one battle, Sion is two, and Kreia is one. Unless I'm misunderstanding you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lessthanjake2
Yeah you are right about that one. I really love the upgrade system of KOTOR 2. I think it adds a totally new aspect to the game that KOTOR 1 didnt have. It makes skills worth it. But at the same time, it is the upgrades that makes the game too easy.
Yeah, that is a recognizable problem. It was like they went from one extreme to the other - they need to find a balance with random/placed items, along with probably levels and upgrades.

I think the individual characters were just missing one of a possible two core elements. Malak was finished, he had much more work done on him, and he was a perfect bad villian. There wasn't that much of a complex or mysterious backstory, but that was unnecessary, what with the story and your identity.

As for Nihilus, Sion, and Kreia, they just felt like Obsidian didn't get to do all they needed to to make they mystery complete. They were very complex, but were actually shallow (with the possible exception of Kreia). However, the original conception of them was good, and they are very interesting characters. There just wasn't much there to speculate as to their purpose or backstory.
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Old 09-04-2006, 10:52 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
Stoffe -mkb- said it. What about Peragus? And if you don't remember, Sion [b]did[/i] have villains coming after you. All (or close to all) those invisible guys called "Sith Assassins" were his, and controlled by him. They were everywhere, trying to kill you; in fact, I think that they were appeared more than dark Jedi in K1.
They did appear more then dark jedi in K1 (if you don't think about the Star Forge).
There's still a problem to it. They use sticks. OK, I know that it makes sense, sticks are less messy then a lightsaber but that is just lame.
You don't feel any sort of pride when you destroy stick wielding villains. I'm not saying that someone with the correct skill cannot kickass with a stick, but when you're going to tell a friend about it, he just might not be too impressed.

I don't mind fighting a few enemies wielding sticks, it's just kind of sad when it's his entire army...


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Old 09-04-2006, 10:59 PM   #56
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^^^Um, but they're assassins. There's nothing like giving yourself away with a loud snap-hiss.


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Old 09-04-2006, 11:29 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
I don't mind fighting a few enemies wielding sticks, it's just kind of sad when it's his entire army...
That's why I gave them lightsabers. They look much better with those. It would be a better weapon for them to use anyhow, because it takes one hit to kill someone, unlike a stadd that you have to use quite a bit of force with. Other than how it makes a sound, a lightsaber would be a much more ideal weapon for an assassin than a large stick.

But despite that, they're not the same. It was good to be stalked by assassins, but I missed slaughtering platoons of Sith troopers. You never saw enough of those guys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
Alright. A big bad Sith who wants to slaughter every Jedi. Nothing else. He doesn't want power, he doesn't want anything. Except the death of all Jedi.
One of the reasons I like a female Exile more than a male one. I found how Sion loved her and hated both himself and her for that to be a wonderful break from the standard Sith Lord "I'm gonna wipe out the Jedi Odrer! Vengeance is mine! I'm the meanest Sith ever!! HA HA HA!!" routine.


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Old 09-04-2006, 11:35 PM   #58
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^^^
SION Loved her? That's crazy! *begins new game as female*

Alright, back on topic...

I'll make this quick cause I gotta leave soon, I'll give each Sith the Cool Factor:

Revan - 8
Malak - 9
Sion - 9
Nihilus - 10 (Nihilus FTW!)
Traya - 8

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Old 09-05-2006, 12:54 AM   #59
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Yes, Sion says some interesting things to a female, especially at the during the last battle with him on Malachor.
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Old 09-05-2006, 12:57 AM   #60
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stoffe -mkb-:
She wants you to become stronger than her, and that battle struck me as the final test to end your "apprenticeship" to her. If you win she has succeeded: you are stronger than her. If you lose then you were weaker than she thought and suffered the consequences thereof.
-----------------------------------

Actually I was thinking more along the lines that when you consider the ease with which she deals with 3 masters, how is it that she appears incapable of dispatching the exile in a similiar fashion? Especially when the 3 of them almost strip you of your abilities, except for her interference. On top of which she leaves you incapacitated. That's why I suggested there may have been more going on the just a simple contest of apparent strength.
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Old 09-05-2006, 06:30 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
They did appear more then dark jedi in K1 (if you don't think about the Star Forge).
There's still a problem to it. They use sticks. OK, I know that it makes sense, sticks are less messy then a lightsaber but that is just lame.
Not so impressive looking, but it does indeed make sense seeing what they are trying to accomplish. When you try to eliminate an actor (the Jedi and their more powerful sympathisers in the Republic in this case) from the galactic scene through stealthy assassinations without anyone realizing what is happening until it's too late you will want to avoid discovery or to arouse suspicions. Lightsabers are noisy, emits light and they leave very characteristic wounds which would be akin to leaving a note on the victim saying "The Sith were here".

Those collapsable sticks are nondescript, easy to conceal, silent to use and leave normal blunt trauma wounds which could have been caused by anything from an accident, a wild animal, some thug, or stealthy assassins. But I agree they could have sacrificed some of the stealth for something a little more flashy, like collapsable Force Pikes or Electrostaves or something.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
Actually I was thinking more along the lines that when you consider the ease with which she deals with 3 masters, how is it that she appears incapable of dispatching the exile in a similiar fashion?
The impression I got was that she killed the Masters with the NihilusDrain™, an impression reinforced by the text hovering above them if you click on their corpses if you compare it to how Visas describes DNs power. Remember what happened to Nihilus when he tried to use that power on the Exile? Kreia either knew or suspected that this would happen due to the Exile's unique "condition", or she wouldn't have orchestrated the confrontation with Darth Nihilus, whom she wanted dead, not made stronger.


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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
But despite that, they're not the same. It was good to be stalked by assassins, but I missed slaughtering platoons of Sith troopers. You never saw enough of those guys.
For most of the game at least. On the Ebon Hawk just before leaving Peragus*, on war-torn Onderon, on Nihilus ship and on Malachor there were quite a lot of sith troopers.

* = If you don't shoot them with the turret and let them board you'll have to deal with roughly 25 Sith Troopers in direct combat on the ship. And if you powergame you will let them board, since you will get more XP this way, plus some of them drops some loot.


mt

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Old 09-05-2006, 07:53 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
The impression I got was that she killed the Masters with the NihilusDrain™, an impression reinforced by the text hovering above them if you click on their corpses if you compare it to how Visas describes DNs power.
Yes, I had a similar impression upon my second LS playthrough after already knowing of Nihilus' powers and the Exile's special abilities.

When you examine one of the dead masters, the text reads: "This master is dead... drained of life. His body is worse than lifeless, it's like an absence in the Force."

Sounds very similar to Nihilus' ability, albeit on a lesser scale, which makes me think that Kreia was herself a student of sorts in the Trayus Academy - she studied Nihilus' unique powers and learned a little bit of it. And she knows she can drain the masters without hurting the Exile, because the Exile cannot be drained, as Nihilus discovered the hard way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
Remember what happened to Nihilus when he tried to use that power on the Exile? Kreia either knew or suspected that this would happen due to the Exile's unique "condition", or she wouldn't have orchestrated the confrontation with Darth Nihilus, whom she wanted dead, not made stronger.
I think she knew. Kreia doesn't deny that she used the Exile at the end, and one of the things she used him for was to take her revenge against Nihilus for casting her out. And she knew the Exile would be perfect, because he was immune to Nihilus' draining abilities. Note how she keeps putting off the confronation with Nihilus, yet never describes his actual powers. She knows what will happen.

But of course that is not all she uses the Exile for. Kreia knows that she cannot wound the force, but she knows that the Exile can, and since she hates the force, she is quite content to die give her life to her greater goal of making the Exile grow stronger and widening the wound in the force as he does so. She knows that she can never wound the force, so the best she can do is to make the Exile as strong as possible and then hope that he will wound the force. That's exactly the goal she accomplishes at the end. The Exile may not become a believer, but then that was always the Exile's choice and not Kreia's. And she dies bringing the Exile as close as she can to her teachings.


"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia

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Old 09-05-2006, 11:34 AM   #63
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stoffe -mkb-........Just b/c she didn't use the life force drain on the exile, ala Nihilus, doesn't mean she was necessarily weaker. Consider that she knew she needed to use the exile to "kill the force" (or at least her tormentors) and that once that objective was complete, her stated goals were fulfilled. Consider also that she claims she would have laid waste to the universe to save the exile. Seems to me she may have been ready to die after seeing her life's work achieved. I mean the exile must have had the equivalent of a power surge to go from being unable to defeat 3 masters to taking down Kreia in a relatively brief period of time. Seems a bit of a stretch, even in fiction. The exile couldn't even defeat Sion, except through psych warfare and Sion seemed a thrall to DT (or perhaps he was merely humoring her to fill the void in his existance?). It may just be that DT saw the Exile as solidly on the path of surpassing her, one more feather in her cap so to speak and was content to finally die. Or maybe the old hag finally did just run out of gas (depending on your luck).........
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Old 09-05-2006, 01:37 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
I mean the exile must have had the equivalent of a power surge to go from being unable to defeat 3 masters to taking down Kreia in a relatively brief period of time.
Assuming that Kreia would have hade a chance in a straight lightsaber fight against the three masters, if she hadn't used the NihilusDrain™, which is not by any means certain, and not very likely in my opinion.

Just like Nihilus hardly would have been able to take on the whole Katarr conclave of hundreds of Jedi in a straight lightsaber fight if he hadn't used the NihilusDrain™ to kill them all before they even knew he was there. They both knew the "force hunger" power from Malachor, though Kreia's wasn't as strong with it as Nihilus (or has the wisdom not to indulge in using it needlessly, to avoid becoming a thrall to it like Nihilus). She used it to quickly deal with Vrook, Kavar and Ell, rather than fight them on their own terms which she may not have been successful in doing. Particularily not there, in a Jedi enclave which might be a place strong in the light side.

Since this power doesn't work on the Exile however, and she knows it, it is not an option and more traditional combat will have to suffice. Why would she attempt to do what she did to the Masters against the Exile during the final battle? It would serve no purpose but to weaken herself. It's not deliberately holding back, it's realizing this particular powerful tool is useless against this unique enemy she is facing. Just like you won't waste time and FP using Force Insanity if you know your opponent is a Jedi Sentinel.


mt
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Old 09-05-2006, 02:51 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
For most of the game at least. On the Ebon Hawk just before leaving Peragus*, on war-torn Onderon, on Nihilus ship and on Malachor there were quite a lot of sith troopers.
Unfortunately, DS characters don't get to fight any Sith troops. Nihilus' ship and Malachor were full of Sith commandos, but not standard troopers. It's like Luke fighting Royal Guardsmen and no stormtroopers. Thankfully, there are a few places in the game Sith troops can be implemented into while still fitting with the plot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
* = If you don't shoot them with the turret and let them board you'll have to deal with roughly 25 Sith Troopers in direct combat on the ship. And if you powergame you will let them board, since you will get more XP this way, plus some of them drops some loot.
Loot? I've never seen them drop it before. I'll have to check it out again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
Nihilus hardly would have been able to take on the whole Katarr conclave of hundreds of Jedi
A point if I may, stoffe... there were probably a few dozen of them at best. It's stated several times that there were barely a hundred Jedi when the war ended, and the conlave took place a few years after Traya started her shadow war.


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Old 09-05-2006, 03:58 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Unfortunately, DS characters don't get to fight any Sith troops. Nihilus' ship and Malachor were full of Sith commandos, but not standard troopers.
More or less the same thing. Just a different name tag and a helmet with a smaller visor. You could just rename them "Sith Trooper" instead and you'd not have much time to reflect upon the small differences in their armor in the heat of combat. They fight in the same way as Sith Troopers, with blasters and grenades.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Loot? I've never seen them drop it before. I'll have to check it out again.
It doesn't happen often, but I've had a few of them drop things on occasion. It's just an extra bonus though in addition to the 1000+ extra XP you gain from beating them on the ship compared to what you'd have gotten if you shot them with the turret instead before they could come aboard.


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A point if I may, stoffe... there were probably a few dozen of them at best. It's stated several times that there were barely a hundred Jedi when the war ended, and the conlave took place a few years after Traya started her shadow war.
Perhaps, but Nihilus still wouldn't have stood a chance if he confronted them all in "conventional" sith vs. jedi fighting. With or without the intervention of Katarr's military in addition to the Jedi.

Just look at how easily you could defeat him in conventional combat. Granted he was weakened by attempting to drain the Exile, but you still could beat him rather easily once his NihilusDrain™ was taken out of the equation, with just one other Sith and a Mandalorian to aid you.

The NihilusDrain™ power was what made him unbeatable, but once nullified he was "just a man", as Visas says. And at least some Council-grade Jedi Masters were present at Katarr (Vandar, Dorak & co). But that's moot since the Jedi aren't immune to the drain, so he could just feed on them instead.

(Top of the line Sith aren't necessarily always a lot stronger than top of the line jedi, as exemplified by Mace Windu being a second away from having killed Darth Sidious had Anakin not intervened.)


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Old 09-05-2006, 04:11 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
More or less the same thing. Just a different name tag and a helmet with a smaller visor. You could just rename them "Sith Trooper" instead and you'd not have much time to reflect upon the small differences in their armor in the heat of combat. They fight in the same way as Sith Troopers, with blasters and grenades.
That's what I've done to nearly all the Sith commandos. Fighting nothing but elite enemies gets tiresome. This brings back memories of fighting a dozen liches in a regular old tomb in NWN.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
Perhaps, but Nihilus still wouldn't have stood a chance if he confronted them all in "conventional" sith vs. jedi fighting. With or without the intervention of Katarr's military in addition to the Jedi.
Most likely. There were a few members of the Council, and the others were hardy enough to survive Revan and Traya's purges. Till then, that is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
Just look at how easily you could defeat him in conventional combat.
Big letdown. I thought the lesson had been larned after people said Malak was too easy. But, that is what modding is for. Nihilus is much funner with a constitution at 70 and several hundred more hit points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
Granted he was weakened by attempting to drain the Exile, but you still could beat him rather easily once his NihilusDrain™ was taken out of the equation. The NihilusDrain™ power was what made him unbeatable, but once nullified he was "just a man", as Visas says.
It's possible he might have been even stronger than just a man, even without NihilusDrain™. When the Exile kills the Masters, she becomes more powerful by feeding off of them. I'm inclined that Nihilus did the same with the other Jedi, but it was moot against the Exile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
(Top of the line Sith aren't necessarily always a lot stronger than top of the line jedi, as exemplified by Mace Windu being a second away from having killed Darth Sidious had Anakin not intervened.)
Sidious, I think, let that happen on purpose. It only seems logical. Anakin arrives the second he's going to die, and yet Sidious is capable of holding his own against Yoda, who was more powerful than Mace, hence how he was the Grand Master.


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Old 09-05-2006, 04:46 PM   #68
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Quote:
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That's what I've done to nearly all the Sith commandos. Fighting nothing but elite enemies gets tiresome. This brings back memories of fighting a dozen liches in a regular old tomb in NWN.
I can agree to that, some enemies shouldn't be clustered up in nameless hordes. Liches are supposed to be undead wizards after all, and wizards of that kind tend not to be that communal. Though I'd argue that Sith Commandos aren't quite equal to liches. They're just elite troops, top of the line grunts, slightly more exclusive cannon fodder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Big letdown. I thought the lesson had been larned after people said Malak was too easy. But, that is what modding is for. Nihilus is much funner with a constitution at 70 and several hundred more hit points.
They've probably learned the lesson that game balancing is a hopeless undertaking since players vary widely in skill, and you cannot easily please everyone. I thought the Malak battle was difficult in KotOR1, and I always play on "Normal" difficulty level.

Very tough battles are, in particular during the first playthrough, rather frustrating and annoying rather than fun, since they prevent you from moving on with the story you are eager to explore. And the whole boss concept, having been used for decades, is starting to get a little old. Challenge can be provided through more believable means than some big bad enemy who for no reason appears to be a demigod. But that's another discussion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
It's possible he might have been even stronger than just a man, even without NihilusDrain™. When the Exile kills the Masters, she becomes more powerful by feeding off of them. I'm inclined that Nihilus did the same with the other Jedi, but it was moot against the Exile.
Darth Nihilus is very powerful, no doubt about that. But so is the Exile when you manage to reach DN to do combat. And so would a pack of cornered council-grade Jedi Masters be, I'd wager. But the difference between being very powerful and being essentially unbeatable lied entirely with the NihilusDrain™ power in his case. (Like it lied with his darkside-powered immortality for Darth Sion. Take that away too and he also was "just a man", a very powerful man, no doubt, but one who could be killed like anyone else, and not an unstoppable killing machine that could only be slowed down, never beaten.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Sidious, I think, let that happen on purpose. It only seems logical. Anakin arrives the second he's going to die, and yet Sidious is capable of holding his own against Yoda, who was more powerful than Mace, hence how he was the Grand Master.
I'd have to disagree on that, based on what I see in the movie. Windu had Sidious disarmed and on the floor. I got the impression that Sidious was merely fighting a delaying fight against Windu up until then, holding off the inevitable until Anakin had time to arrive so his plan could be set in motion and victory be achieved.

Is it stated anywhere that Yoda is more powerful than MWindu in lightsaber combat? I got the impression that Yoda was the "thinker" and Windu was the "doer" on the council (Consular vs. Weapon Master, using Kotor terms).

And I somehow doubt Jedi appoint their leaders based on combat proficiency alone. There are other factors that weigh in to make someone a good council member and rolemodel, like knowledge of the force, wisdom, clairvoyance, life experience within the order and so on. The "Dark Lord of the Sith" may need to be the most powerful in battle of that pack, but somehow it doesn't seem quite fitting that the same would apply to the Lord/Grandmaster of the Jedi order, seing their ideological differences.

(Besides, it looked like Sidious was about to lose against Yoda as well before the force lightning imploded and hurled Yoda to the bottom floor of the senate hall. You don't need to be physically stronger than your enemy to win if you can outsmart them or have the strength of numbers on your side, after all. )


mt

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Old 09-05-2006, 05:13 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
Though I'd argue that Sith Commandos aren't quite equal to liches. They're just elite troops, top of the line grunts, slightly more exclusive cannon fodder.
Top of the line grunts, yes, but uncommon ones. In any military the commandos make up a much smaller and less expendable force than regular soldiers. Nihilus wasn't very bright about sending them onto Citadel Station at the front lines. But Nihilus seemed to look at the universe in a very Olympian way, and I don't think he'd care if his best troops died or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
Very tough battles are, in particular during the first playthrough, rather frustrating and annoying rather than fun, since they prevent you from moving on with the story you are eager to explore.
In some ways, but I've always liked it when you have try especially hard at some points. The game shouldn't be without challenges, but as you said, that's another discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
But the difference between being very powerful and being essentially unbeatable lied entirely with the NihilusDrain™ power in his case. (Like it lied with his darkside-powered immortality for Darth Sion. Take that away too and he also was "just a man", a very powerful man, no doubt, but one who could be killed like anyone else, and not an unstoppable killing machine that could only be slowed down, never beaten.)
Sion's immortality is actually not as effective as I'd thought. In the cut content where he fights Nihilus, he loses. But there is no denyong he can't be killed by regular means.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
Is it stated anywhere that Yoda is more powerful than MWindu in lightsaber combat? I got the impression that Yoda was the "thinker" and Windu was the "doer" on the council (Consular vs. Weapon Master, using Kotor terms).
Not that I'm aware of, and I doubt it, as Mace finished developing Form VII. But as was demonstrated by Nihilus, the Force can be more than a match for any lightsaber.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
There are other factors that weigh in to make someone a good council member and rolemodel, like knowledge of the force, wisdom, clairvoyance, life experience within the order and so on.
Not entirely true. The Force is a large reason for that, as it enhances those traits, and also grants the user skill in combat. It's all but impossible for someone who's very strong in the Force to be an unskilled uelist. Hence how Dooku, despite being 80 years old, could stand up against a fit young man in duel, despite losing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
The "Dark Lord of the Sith" may need to be the most powerful in battle of that pack, but somehow it doesn't seem quite fitting that the same would apply to the Lord/Grandmaster of the Jedi order, seing their ideological differences.
The Jedi do judge their leaders by wisdom and intellect over brawn, but those traits are enhanced by the Force.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
(Besides, it looked like Sidious was about to lose against Yoda as well before the force lightning imploded and hurled Yoda to the bottom floor of the senate hall.
If that were so, Yoda would have come back to assassinate Sidious later.

Whoa, we're getting way off-topic.


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Old 09-05-2006, 05:42 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Top of the line grunts, yes, but uncommon ones. In any military the commandos make up a much smaller and less expendable force than regular soldiers. Nihilus wasn't very bright about sending them onto Citadel Station at the front lines. But Nihilus seemed to look at the universe in a very Olympian way, and I don't think he'd care if his best troops died or not.
The rest of the troops were probably killed in the Republic mop-up operations (or ensuing sith in-fighting when Revan vanishes if you go the dark path, I suppose) following the StarForge incident. Thus only the elite troops that weren't sacrificed before remained.

It can also be theorized that all of Sion's and Nihilus' forces are made up of the Sith garrison that Darth Revan stationed on Malachor to keep the Trayus Academy there safe. And given the top-secret nature of that facility (not even Malak knew about it, after all) she probably stationed only elite troops to guard it, not common grunts.

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In some ways, but I've always liked it when you have try especially hard at some points. The game shouldn't be without challenges
The line between challenge and frustration can be thin, though. I prefer games that can be beaten without dying even once if you play carefully and cautiously, remain aware of your surroundings and utilize the means at your disposal. Games where you more or less have to die in order to gain OOC knowledge to figure out how an encounter "works" beforehand to be able to beat it breaks the immersion for me. It just yells to your face that the adventure your characters are on is really impossible, since they'd been dead many times over if it wasn't for the mighty SaveGame feature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Sion's immortality is actually not as effective as I'd thought. In the cut content where he fights Nihilus, he loses. But there is no denyong he can't be killed by regular means.
But that isn't part of the actual game experience, so it doesn't happen. It might have, during some point during game development, but it doesn't happen in K2:The Sith Lords.


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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Not entirely true. The Force is a large reason for that, as it enhances those traits, and also grants the user skill in combat.
I'd like to think there is lots of hard training and finely honed skills involved as well; that jedi aren't just puppets dangling on the lines of the Force where nothing they do themselves really matters. I doubt anyone born force sensitive instinctively knows how to handle a lightsaber in the heat of battle. There's the psychology bit as well, not everyone reacts the same when faced with mortal danger, force powered or not.

There is also the matter of focus, "Jack of all trades, master of all" wouldn't be feasible for human Jedi since there is only so much time during a lifetime. Some would focus on battle, some would focus on other aspects of the force. The Jedi are a paramilitary order, but combat isn't their sole and primary function. Perhaps someone like Yoda have had time to squeeze in more during his long lifetime than most other Jedi, and have been able to specialize in several areas.

But learning knowledge, skills and abilities is one thing, keeping from forgetting them again is another. You'd need to keep up to date on everything you've learned to stay sharp, and there are only so many hours per day even if you live forever.


Quote:
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It's all but impossible for someone who's very strong in the Force to be an unskilled uelist. Hence how Dooku, despite being 80 years old, could stand up against a fit young man in duel, despite losing.
While could be attributed as much to the fact that he has some 70+ years or so of training and experience under his belt, as much as his raw strength in the force. You do pick up a thing or two during a long life, and you don't need the force to be a master of something you've been doing all your life at old age.

You need look no further than martial arts in the real world, where some of the elderly masters/sensei can defeat well-trained young men at their physical peak seemingly without effort in hand to hand combat; where their finely honed technique, taken to perfection over the years, more than makes up for any physical weakness and lack of raw strength their age may cause.


mt
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Old 09-05-2006, 06:22 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
The rest of the troops were probably killed in the Republic mop-up operations (or ensuing sith in-fighting when Revan vanishes if you go the dark path, I suppose) following the StarForge incident. Thus only the elite troops that weren't sacrificed before remained.
That's possible, although I have to disagree. When nations fight each other, they don't completely wipe out each other's armies. There usually are troops who survive; they've just not in much of position to fight a war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
It can also be theorized that all of Sion's and Nihilus' forces are made up of the Sith garrison that Darth Revan stationed on Malachor to keep the Trayus Academy there safe. And given the top-secret nature of that facility (not even Malak knew about it, after all) she probably stationed only elite troops to guard it, not common grunts.
I imagine he did, though I don't think that's how Nihilus got all his forces. My theory is that after the Sith Civil War, there were many warlords with different amounts of troops who all were (or pretended to be) loyal to the three main Sith Lords. While Nihilus probably got the core of his forces from Malachor, I think he demmanded more troops for himself. That seems like what he would do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
It just yells to your face that the adventure your characters are on is really impossible, since they'd been dead many times over if it wasn't for the mighty SaveGame feature.
I never said it should be impossible, but difficult. There should be at least some realistic emphasis on how the adventures your character is going on are not easy ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
But that isn't part of the actual game experience, so it doesn't happen. It might have, during some point during game development, but it doesn't happen in K2:The Sith Lords.
So you don't even consider what the M4-78 restoration team and I are doing to be official or part of the game? How offensive!

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
I'd like to think there is lots of hard training and finely honed skills involved as well; that jedi aren't just puppets dangling on the lines of the Force where nothing they do themselves really matters.
They don't, but the Force does play a role in their skills. As Kreia tells you throughout the game, Jedi rely greatly on the Force, and can enhance their skills with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
While could be attributed as much to the fact that he has some 70+ years or so of training and experience under his belt, as much as his raw strength in the force. You do pick up a thing or two during a long life, and you don't need the force to be a master of something you've been doing all your life at old age.
That is true, though the Force hones all abilities. I doubt Dooku could've lasted as long as he had without it, even though he lost to Anakin. It does grant more than the ability to spew flashy energy from your hand, after all. Look at how the Exile, a woman in her early thirties, was able to defeat a most likely younger man in melee combat. The Force grants many powers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
You need look no further than martial arts in the real world, where some of the elderly masters/sensei can defeat well-trained young men at their physical peak seemingly without effort in hand to hand combat;
Experience does help, though age catches up on everyone and Anakin proved that it isn't everything when it comes to the Force.


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Old 09-06-2006, 01:32 AM   #72
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Just to interject something on the Mace or Yoda being the best with a saber...

It is stated in EP II when Obi Wan is talking to Anakin about his obsession with speeders (During the coruscant Zam Wiesel chase) that Yoda was the one to beat in lightsaber skills, even over Windu.

Just note, I haven't read all of your posts so you might have discussed this already.


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Old 09-06-2006, 04:13 AM   #73
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Malak is decent. But he was a little bit of a wuss to not face his Master in a true Dark Lord dual.



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Old 09-06-2006, 07:16 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kookaburra
Malak is decent. But he was a little bit of a wuss to not face his Master in a true Dark Lord dual.
Considering how he ended up when he finally did fight Revan in a 1 on 1 duel, it might have been a sign of intelligence rather than "wussiness" to put aside his pride and attack from a safe distance.

(And if you interpret the tale Palpatine told Anakin at the theatre in Ep 3 as something that actually happened, then Darth Sidious murdered his master in his sleep as well. So the Sith apparantly have no rules that you must beat your master in a straight fight when trying to topple them. )


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Old 09-06-2006, 07:29 AM   #75
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Nihilus being described as ridiculously powerful (killing a planet with the Force - that's like 100+ (?) times the power of any jedi ever seen in any movie)and then appearing ridiculously weak in-game
Don't forget that it was explained that Nihilous didnt control that power. It controlled him. It had 'its own will' and maybe it 'felt' (can I call it that?) a greater purpose would be served by letting the exile survive. Don't forget the founding concept surrounding the star wars universe. Every action, no matter how small, echoes through the force, and some acts, if properly executed, can create ripples in the future, potentially accomplishing what might seem unlikely if looked at from a 'here and now' point of view.

As far as Sion, he sadly reminds me of a young Anakin Skywalker. Instantly turning to his "Master's" will without resistance. And well....Kreia was a joke. Some of the weaker opponents in K1 had a better backstory than she did.

EDIT: I know I am way late on this but I thought the extra background received from Kreia through gaining influence with her was a fairly decent build-up to the confrontation with Nihilous. And I must have somehow missed the part where the exiles immunity to NihilousDrain™ was explained. Time to play through again

Last edited by SithAnnihilator; 09-06-2006 at 08:12 AM.
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Old 09-07-2006, 01:34 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
That's why I gave them lightsabers. They look much better with those. It would be a better weapon for them to use anyhow, because it takes one hit to kill someone, unlike a stadd that you have to use quite a bit of force with. Other than how it makes a sound, a lightsaber would be a much more ideal weapon for an assassin than a large stick.
I found it interesting that the only assassin that wields a lightsaber was in the Trayus Academy, called "Elite Sith Assassin" (or something), and wielding dual lightsabers; in fact, two lightsabers that had an uncommon combo of colors, (red and viridian). Now what they should have done is to scatter that one guy around the game, leading the other assassins in that area, and then replace the regular assassin's sticks with something a bit more flashier. Like stoffe -mkb- said, perhaps a Force Pike or something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor
Unfortunately, DS characters don't get to fight any Sith troops. Nihilus' ship and Malachor were full of Sith commandos, but not standard troopers. It's like Luke fighting Royal Guardsmen and no stormtroopers. Thankfully, there are a few places in the game Sith troops can be implemented into while still fitting with the plot.
Hm... Are you sure they were all Sith commandos? I'm pretty sure, especially in Nadd's tomb, that quite a few were the regular red or silver Sith troops, and probably elsewhere too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
Very tough battles are, in particular during the first playthrough, rather frustrating and annoying rather than fun, since they prevent you from moving on with the story you are eager to explore. And the whole boss concept, having been used for decades, is starting to get a little old. Challenge can be provided through more believable means than some big bad enemy who for no reason appears to be a demigod. But that's another discussion.
I agree, although I do like for a game to be challenging when I first pick it up. The only problem with TSL was that it was too unbalanced. Sometimes I thought that the stats on the minor "Sith Lord" in Nadd's tomb had gotten switched with one of the major Sith Lords in the game. Probably the game difficulties just need to be accordingly adjusted for each type of player.

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Originally Posted by Emperor
Not entirely true. The Force is a large reason for that, as it enhances those traits, and also grants the user skill in combat. It's all but impossible for someone who's very strong in the Force to be an unskilled uelist. Hence how Dooku, despite being 80 years old, could stand up against a fit young man in duel, despite losing.
Yeah, but I got the impression that that was more of a side effect, or individual focus. The force can grant you great combat skills, especially if you are powerful in the Force, but not like a person who has trained for years in saber combat and has that combined with natural force ability. I don't think that the focus is on combat, that is just one aspect of the bigger picture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
The Jedi do judge their leaders by wisdom and intellect over brawn, but those traits are enhanced by the Force.
True, but those traits have to be good in order for the enhancement to make much of a difference. The force doesn't grant omnipotence - Yoda says that the Force only partially controls your actions, so I would think that it more guides or aids you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Top of the line grunts, yes, but uncommon ones. In any military the commandos make up a much smaller and less expendable force than regular soldiers. Nihilus wasn't very bright about sending them onto Citadel Station at the front lines. But Nihilus seemed to look at the universe in a very Olympian way, and I don't think he'd care if his best troops died or not.
Again, true, but I also would wonder if they would have to be top-of-the-line to survive until then. The Sith aren't as widespread then, of course, so it might make sense in a way to have many be the elite - and of course, the Sith isn't an empire anymore, and the way they operate is different. I would imagine that the kind of "grunt" would change also, and not have the same throw-away cannon fodder designation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
If that were so, Yoda would have come back to assassinate Sidious later.
However, by that time, Sidious's empire would be a bit more stable, and he would have good ol' Vader back with him again, along with thousands of stormtroopers. During the time of the Sidious vs. Yoda fight, he was probably at his weakest strategic point. Man, how did we get talking about this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
It just yells to your face that the adventure your characters are on is really impossible, since they'd been dead many times over if it wasn't for the mighty SaveGame feature.
Quoted for emphasis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
That is true, though the Force hones all abilities. I doubt Dooku could've lasted as long as he had without it, even though he lost to Anakin. It does grant more than the ability to spew flashy energy from your hand, after all. Look at how the Exile, a woman in her early thirties, was able to defeat a most likely younger man in melee combat. The Force grants many powers.
As does lightsaber combat training by Kreia, and much practicing against run-of-the-mill Sith beforehand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SithAnnihilator
And I must have somehow missed the part where the exiles immunity to NihilousDrain™ was explained. Time to play through again
It is shown during the fight with Nihilus and the Exile, I believe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
(And if you interpret the tale Palpatine told Anakin at the theatre in Ep 3 as something that actually happened, then Darth Sidious murdered his master in his sleep as well. So the Sith apparantly have no rules that you must beat your master in a straight fight when trying to topple them. )
Yuthura and Uthar double-double-cross, with the poison in the bed or the bath? I think the head-on confrontation is still preferred, and would gain prestige, but yeah, several weaker Sith's greed for power would cause them to try other methods, just like Malak.
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Old 09-07-2006, 03:13 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
Hm... Are you sure they were all Sith commandos? I'm pretty sure, especially in Nadd's tomb, that quite a few were the regular red or silver Sith troops, and probably elsewhere too.
No, I was just talking about the areas stoffe mentioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
but not like a person who has trained for years in saber combat and has that combined with natural force ability.
Yoda was nearly nine hundred when he fought Sidious. I wonder how many inutes he'd put into lightsaber sparring?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
True, but those traits have to be good in order for the enhancement to make much of a difference. The force doesn't grant omnipotence - Yoda says that the Force only partially controls your actions, so I would think that it more guides or aids you.
Quite possible, though I've yet to see a Jedi Master who didn't have a significantly above average intellect and sense of wisdom. I think the Force simply enhances all current senses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
The Sith aren't as widespread then, of course, so it might make sense in a way to have many be the elite - and of course, the Sith isn't an empire anymore, and the way they operate is different.
I'm not sure. By the time Daala began her second campaign against the New Republic, she had an immense amount of troops that were cloistered in the Deep Core, despite the civil wars and defeats. I'm inclined the Sith did the same thing, but were cloistered in farthest reaches of the Outer Rim instead. But if the commandos were as common as normal grunts, they must've had a very small army. But Nihilus was stupid about the them. Commandos are best sent on sabotage or assassination missions, not thrown into the field of battle where they're little better off than fodder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
However, by that time, Sidious's empire would be a bit more stable, and he would have good ol' Vader back with him again, along with thousands of stormtroopers. During the time of the Sidious vs. Yoda fight, he was probably at his weakest strategic point. Man, how did we get talking about this?
Who knows? But I don't think that matters. Sidious had enough troops to overwhelm Yoda either way. He was able to get into the Senate building just fine, so I don't think common stormtroopers could've stopped him. They had enough firepower to overhwhelm Yoda then, but didn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
As does lightsaber combat training by Kreia, and much practicing against run-of-the-mill Sith beforehand.
I was just saying what strengths the Force grants. I don't think she could've dueled Sith Lords of fought her way through platoons of troopers if she didn't have it.


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Old 09-07-2006, 08:05 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Yoda was nearly nine hundred when he fought Sidious. I wonder how many inutes he'd put into lightsaber sparring?
Probably several human lifetimes of practice taken together, in addition to studying techniques, fighting styles tactics and so on. If you are a great warrior without the force, you become a supreme warrior with it. If you are a mediocre warrior without the force you will at best become a decent warrior with it. Mundane training and studies are not meaningless for Jedi (or Sith for that matter) just because they can use the force to boost their abilities.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Quite possible, though I've yet to see a Jedi Master who didn't have a significantly above average intellect and sense of wisdom. I think the Force simply enhances all current senses.
That could be because you wont become a Jedi Master to begin with if you don't fulfill the "prerequisites", so to speak. Just like you won't find any rocket scientists who are barely sentient drooling idiots, you won't find any Jedi Master's who aren't strong in the force, physically able and possessing a keen intellect, since they would never have reached the position if they didn't. Not everyone who becomes a member of the Jedi Order eventually ends up as a Master on the council after all. Only the cream of the crop get that far. Many who join the order won't even become Knights, but they still serve a purpose.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
But Nihilus was stupid about the them. Commandos are best sent on sabotage or assassination missions, not thrown into the field of battle where they're little better off than fodder.
I don't think Darth Nihilus concerned himself with such things at all any more, he doesn't seem the type. Too insignificant for his widened awareness. He probably lets his generals or commanders deal with the specifics of how the military operations he desires done are carried out.

And really, this is a guy who slowly devours his own bridge crew. I don't think he cares in the slightest what happens to his commandos.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
I was just saying what strengths the Force grants. I don't think she could've dueled Sith Lords of fought her way through platoons of troopers if she didn't have it.
Since said Sith Lords also use the force all those fights would have been an equal match if mundane skills and experience didn't play a significant part of it. I'm just saying the force isn't the only thing that's important in determining someone's combat skill. One should not underestimate the importance of experience, skill and technique compared to raw physical brawn or the Force. They all play an important role in making a complete warrior. The one that gets the balance between them right is the one who comes out victorious. Especially important when your opponent has the same potential means at their disposal as you do.

It's not like the Exile was new to fighting at the beginning of the game anyway. She was a war veteran who fought throughout the Mandalorian Wars, from when Revan's rogue jedi band decided to join all the way up to the final battle. Since she was still alive I'd imagine she had learned a lot about fighting during the war, in addition to the Jedi training received before then. Unlike many of her peers who fell during the war. Not too bad for someone described as "average at best" in their force ability.


mt
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Old 09-10-2006, 04:25 AM   #79
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It is shown during the fight with Nihilus and the Exile, I believe.
Ok I caught it this time. I guess I was just so excited with the final confrontation with Nihilous that I missed it. And as for Malak, I didn't like the style they used for him. I mean yea he was pretty strong, but even on the xbox, I found more difficulty against the star forge's dark jedi trio than I did Malak himself. He seemed like a pushover to me, but then, my character was maxed out so that might be why. Thats not to say I didn't like the original KotOR but I just find TSL more immense and hooking.

But I have the perfect phrase right here:
To each their own
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Old 09-10-2006, 04:48 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
That could be because you wont become a Jedi Master to begin with if you don't fulfill the "prerequisites", so to speak.
Hmm, I can think of some Masters who didn't fit all the requirements for that rank very well. But my original point was that the Force enhances those traits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
And really, this is a guy who slowly devours his own bridge crew. I don't think he cares in the slightest what happens to his commandos.
I agree. He had a very Olympian view of the galaxy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
Since said Sith Lords also use the force all those fights would have been an equal match if mundane skills and experience didn't play a significant part of it. {snip}
I'd say the Force is a bit more poweful than that. It's much more complex than shooting fireballs or ice shards at people. Non-Force sensitive individuals who are capable of defeating an average Jedi/Sith are most uncommon.


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