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Thread: I'm sorry to say, but Malak is cooler than the three scrubs in this game [SPOILERS]
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Old 09-11-2006, 02:31 AM   #81
playloud
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawke
Just to interject something on the Mace or Yoda being the best with a saber...

It is stated in EP II when Obi Wan is talking to Anakin about his obsession with speeders (During the coruscant Zam Wiesel chase) that Yoda was the one to beat in lightsaber skills, even over Windu.
Windu is never mentioned, and the events of RoTS would indicate that Windu was better than Yoda. Windu bested Sidious.

Also, when Anakin was describing Obi-Wan in AoTC, he said he was as wise as Yoda, and as powerful as Windu, which sounded to me like Windu had more power than Yoda (but was not as wise).


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Old 09-11-2006, 02:45 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by playloud
and the events of RoTS would indicate that Windu was better than Yoda. Windu bested Sidious.
Sidious was putting on an act for Aniken in the Windu fight (Sidious knew Aniken was coming, it was all planned)... Windu could arguably be called an equal for Sidious with a saber.

Yoda bested Sidious with a saber, in an all-out fight... Yoda was bested by Sidious' Force Powers not a saber, this is the main reason Sisious switched to using Force Powers on Yoda as he could not beat him with his saber.

Quote:
Originally Posted by playloud
Also, when Anakin was describing Obi-Wan in AoTC, he said he was as wise as Yoda, and as powerful as Windu, which sounded to me like Windu had more power than Yoda (but was not as wise).
That he likely was, Obi-Wan was no pushover... but his saber skills were no match for Yoda's.

Hence the "powerful as Windu" statement, Windu was one of the Jedi's best with a saber as Obi-Wan was, but the absolute best in saber fighting was Yoda, he had hundreds of years to become so.


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"Liella d'Orien says, '"You're the fool, Devil. -- Witness the power of this fully ARMED and OPERATIONAL Titan!"'"
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Old 09-11-2006, 03:44 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by RedHawke
Sidious was putting on an act for Aniken in the Windu fight (Sidious knew Aniken was coming, it was all planned)...
This is in dispute. I personally believe that it was no act. The best explanation that I have read can be found here.

Perhaps Windu's skill with a lightsaber was not the equal of Yoda's, however his ability to combat Sidious effectively was apparent. Check the link for the explanation of that statement.


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Old 09-11-2006, 04:48 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by playloud
This is in dispute.
Not from my end it isn't.

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Originally Posted by playloud
I personally believe that it was no act. The best explanation that I have read can be found here.

Perhaps Windu's skill with a lightsaber was not the equal of Yoda's, however his ability to combat Sidious effectively was apparent. Check the link for the explanation of that statement.
While it is well thought out the person who wrote all that forgot that Sidious greatest power was his forsight, he knew what was going to happen, Luke even commented on this in RotJ. A fact the writer never even mentions in his writings about Sidious.

So I have to disagree with that persons conclusions on this fight. I do agree that Mace Windu was a pivotal character but not what that person makes him out to be.


"Beware the form-fitting black armor-clad Drow hottie with twin Mineral II Greensteel Khopeshes!"
"Liella d'Orien says, '"You're the fool, Devil. -- Witness the power of this fully ARMED and OPERATIONAL Titan!"'"
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Old 09-11-2006, 05:06 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by RedHawke
Not from my end it isn't.


While it is well thought out the person who wrote all that forgot that Sidious greatest power was his forsight, he knew what was going to happen, Luke even commented on this in RotJ. A fact the writer never even mentions in his writings about Sidious.
Unfortunately, it cannot be proven either way. Some believe that Windu won the fight, and Anakin saved Sidious, while others believe that Sidious was never in any real danger. However, I point to the official Star Wars website, and the article regarding Darth Sidious


In the article, it states...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Official Star Wars Website article on Darth Sidious
With Anakin Skywalker's help, Sidious was able to defeat Mace, though he was severely scarred by the reflected power of his dark side lightning. To conceal his disfigured visage, Sidious returned to his simple Sith robes.
As it says with Skywalker's help, and that he was severely scarred by the reflected power of his dark side lightning, it sounds to me like the official site agrees with the author of the article I linked previously. The article on the official site makes no mention of an act by Sidious in this scene.


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Old 09-11-2006, 07:53 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawke
While it is well thought out the person who wrote all that forgot that Sidious greatest power was his forsight, he knew what was going to happen, Luke even commented on this in RotJ. A fact the writer never even mentions in his writings about Sidious.
And still he didn't foresee that his own loyal pet would turn on him and throw him to his death, that his "best legions" on Endor's forrest moon would get whiped out by the natives, and that the death star would be destroyed shortly along with a significant portion of its fleet. None of them small and insignificant events unworthy of his notice. Apparently Sidious' foresight has its limits, even though he himself seems unwilling to accept that fact.

As for the scene you refer to, Luke also says something like "Your overconfidence is your weakness", which may as well be true. Sidious may well have been convinced that he could defeat MWindu, but when it actually came down to the fight it may have turned out differently with Windu getting the upper hand. Few well laid plans survive contact with the enemy.

Personally I prefer the variant where Sidious actually was beaten, as it makes Anakin's fall all the more pivotal and important. It doesn't only turn him into a powerful puppet of the Empire, but a major reason why the Empire came into existence at all. Otherwise Anakin wasn't really all that important. Otherwise the Empire would have arised with or without him. Palpatine's Clone Troopers seemed quite capable of sneak attacking the entire Jedi Order to death even without Anakin's aid, after all. They might have taken some more casualties when raiding the Jedi Temple, but it would have been done regardless.

While Sidious may be a very powerful individual, I doubt he's powerful enough that he can afford to toy with one of the strongest weapon masters of the Order who's trying to beat him. The top of the line Sith shouldn't be that much more powerful than the top of the line Jedi, though their respective strengths may lie in different aspects of the force and combat, which may affect the outcome of a confrontation depending on the circumstances.

That's not saying that Sidious didn't use the situation of being beaten to his advantage when Anakin showed up, even if that might not be how he initially planned for things to go.


mt

Last edited by stoffe -mkb-; 09-11-2006 at 08:06 AM.
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Old 09-11-2006, 08:41 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
And still he didn't foresee that his own loyal pet would turn on him and throw him to his death, that his "best legions" on Endor's forrest moon would get whiped out by the natives, and that the death star would be destroyed shortly along with a significant portion of its fleet. None of them small and insignificant events unworthy of his notice. Apparently Sidious' foresight has its limits, even though he himself seems unwilling to accept that fact.
Yes, Sidious couldn't possibly 'see' Vaders actions or what would happen, hence the force failed Sidious at that time, as Vader's destiny was at hand.

The force has a will of its own, this is the reason Sidious was so confident, he was shown something by his 'foresight' that didn't actually come to pass (Luke joining him as his new apprentice or Luke's defeat at either Vaders hands or his own), instead Vader/Aniken made a choice out of love for his son, one to the contrary to what Sidious thought possible. Just as Luke stated to him.

That single moment was what Star Wars was about.


"Beware the form-fitting black armor-clad Drow hottie with twin Mineral II Greensteel Khopeshes!"
"Liella d'Orien says, '"You're the fool, Devil. -- Witness the power of this fully ARMED and OPERATIONAL Titan!"'"
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Old 09-11-2006, 05:17 PM   #88
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Per my post above, the evidence suggests that Windu defeating Sidious was legit. Unfortunately, we don't know exactly how much Sidious knew, but it appears Windu was more than he could handle without the help of Anakin.


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Old 09-11-2006, 05:55 PM   #89
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I have always seen that Sidious had manipulated everything, Anakin's birth, Most of what caused Anakin to become a Jedi, and then his fall to the dark side. He had planned it years in advance, and knew how the masters would react. I agree with RH that while Windu and Sidious *may* have been a fair match, Sidious let him take him down to prove a point.

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Old 09-11-2006, 08:11 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe -mkb-
And still he didn't foresee that his own loyal pet would turn on him and throw him to his death, that his "best legions" on Endor's forrest moon would get whiped out by the natives, and that the death star would be destroyed shortly along with a significant portion of its fleet. None of them small and insignificant events unworthy of his notice. Apparently Sidious' foresight has its limits, even though he himself seems unwilling to accept that fact.
Or so we all thought until Dark Empire!


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Old 09-11-2006, 11:39 PM   #91
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Quite possible, though I've yet to see a Jedi Master who didn't have a significantly above average intellect and sense of wisdom. I think the Force simply enhances all current senses.
That is what I think, also - we might actually be on the same page from what you are saying. I might have misunderstood what view you took.

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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Who knows? But I don't think that matters. Sidious had enough troops to overwhelm Yoda either way. He was able to get into the Senate building just fine, so I don't think common stormtroopers could've stopped him. They had enough firepower to overhwhelm Yoda then, but didn't.
That's true. I just was thinking about where those troops would have been, as Sidious would have undoubtedly been having to crush any infant rebellions that might have destabilized his also infant empire. He didn't dare to make a move before he had all that power, so he probably was trying to make sure no Jedi were left before trying to go ahead with his rule.

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I'd say the Force is a bit more poweful than that. It's much more complex than shooting fireballs or ice shards at people. Non-Force sensitive individuals who are capable of defeating an average Jedi/Sith are most uncommon.
Having the force sets you apart from those who don't, of course. And while there are those who simply have the force much more/less than others, many would usually have "average" force sensitivity, so the kind of personal training, experience, practice, etc. It makes you much more powerful, but when you're fighting another force-sensitive with roughly the same amount of power it would nullify that advantage (in a broad sense).
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Old 09-12-2006, 02:31 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by playloud
Per my post above, the evidence suggests that Windu defeating Sidious was legit. Unfortunately, we don't know exactly how much Sidious knew, but it appears Windu was more than he could handle without the help of Anakin.
playloud,
  • Do I think Mace Windu is cool? Yes. (Sam Jackson is cool no matter what part he is playing... and having Purple Lightsabers become a Canon saber color because of him is really cool as well.)
  • Do I think he was pivotal? Positively, yes.
  • Do I think he could possibly best the Emperor? Absolutely not.
Having over a decade and a half to contemplate the strengths and powers 'The Emperor' wielded, then actually seeing it all be realised in EPII & EPIII, I will stick to my personal interpretations on this matter.

As the other interpretations like those you linked to are obvious Mace Windu 'fanboy' nonsense. It isn't the first for Star Wars lore either as another character in the OT was blown out of proportion as well... Boba Fett. So much so that GL added in his origins as part of the Clone Wars.


"Beware the form-fitting black armor-clad Drow hottie with twin Mineral II Greensteel Khopeshes!"
"Liella d'Orien says, '"You're the fool, Devil. -- Witness the power of this fully ARMED and OPERATIONAL Titan!"'"
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Old 09-12-2006, 04:16 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by RedHawke
playloud,[*]Do I think he could possibly best the Emperor? Absolutely not.
He DID best the Emperor. The only thing that saved Sidious was Anakin. Sidious did not have the power to defeat Windu. Windu was able to channel the lightning back at Sidious.
Quote:
As the other interpretations like those you linked to are obvious Mace Windu 'fanboy' nonsense.
The official site is fanboy nonsense? While you may still interpret the scene in a different way, both the novelization and the official Star Wars site would seem to disagree with you. Since every piece of official information sides with the interpretation that I have suggested, I would think that would make it the official interpretation.


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Old 09-12-2006, 04:16 AM   #94
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Whether Mace was stronger than Sidious, or the reverse, one thing that was certain was that Anakin was in the Chancellor's pocket, even if he didn't realize it himself (he being Anakin). I thought perhaps DS went down a little too quickly for someone that was supposedly so powerful. I'd have to agree w/Redhawke that the whole encounter was probably to complete the last step of Anakin's seduction. That doesn't denigrate Mace, but even Yoda was bested by DS. Still, you still might have to wonder what would've happened had Anakin not gone all dark sidey and actually obeyed Windu. As was pointed out above, DS's main blindness was due to excessive arrogance. While he turned out to be right about AS, it could've gone the other way (except that that would've skunked the plot). Then, maybe the question of Mace's power could have been answered more clearly (except, again, for the fact that these are fictional characters and Lucas never intended for Mace to win in the first place and in the SW universe, Lucas=god).
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Old 09-12-2006, 05:50 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by playloud
He DID best the Emperor. The only thing that saved Sidious was Anakin. Sidious did not have the power to defeat Windu. Windu was able to channel the lightning back at Sidious.
Only in your opinion... mine differs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by playloud
The official site is fanboy nonsense?
It sure can be... and it is in regards to this event.


"Beware the form-fitting black armor-clad Drow hottie with twin Mineral II Greensteel Khopeshes!"
"Liella d'Orien says, '"You're the fool, Devil. -- Witness the power of this fully ARMED and OPERATIONAL Titan!"'"
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Old 09-12-2006, 09:32 AM   #96
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To me it seems like you need physical strength to hold your lightsaber firm while the Emperor does his best to force lightning you.

Yoda does not have this strength.
Mace Windu does.

But apart from that, I too believe that this Palpatine-Windu encouter was staged for Anakin. Windu did not best Palpatine.

Do you really think it was Randomness (or the fate -.-) that Anakin turned to the Darkside?

Imo Palpatine turned him all by himself. Anakin did have fears and emotions and blablabla every human has. Palpatine manipulated him carefully and effective and that fight vs Windu was just the last step.
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Old 09-12-2006, 01:06 PM   #97
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Um, while this is an interesting discussion, what the heck does it have to do with Malak and the three Sith Lords from K2?


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Old 09-12-2006, 02:48 PM   #98
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That's what I was thinking, but if you read the entire conversation, it does originate from the morals (or lack of such) of the sith.

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Old 09-12-2006, 06:42 PM   #99
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Well RedHawke, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.


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Old 09-13-2006, 02:24 AM   #100
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Well RedHawke, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.
Done!

As it is pointed out above this discussion is also off-topic... bad us! So back on topic folks! (Me too! )


"Beware the form-fitting black armor-clad Drow hottie with twin Mineral II Greensteel Khopeshes!"
"Liella d'Orien says, '"You're the fool, Devil. -- Witness the power of this fully ARMED and OPERATIONAL Titan!"'"
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Old 10-09-2006, 08:06 PM   #101
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I've snarked before that KOTOR 1 was Episodes 4-6. Simplistic, but had a grand old space opera feel. That "seat of the pants," Flash Gordon rollar coaster that made the classic Star Wars such a unpretentious, guilty pleasure good time. What elevated it to a classic was the characters. You wanted to reach out and touch them. Many players, including myself, CAN'T pull Dark Side because they feel physically ill striking down Mission and Zaalbar, despite them just being pixels. You saw them grow up, you saw them transform from where you picked them up - good or ill.

KOTOR 2? A half-finished hackjob that shouldn't have made it out of beta, a project whose ambiton exceeded its capacity to tell the story. The plot's a mess that goes nowhere, makes nothing for sense, contradicts itself, and has holes the size of the first Death Star. Mind you, the concepts and the ambitious thought behind them really are appreciated. Influence - fabulous idea, but all it seems to do is dictate which of your party you can make saber swingers. The graying up of morality? Also appreciated, even if the game comes off as cynical and nihilistic overall.

Sure, the characters were intriguing, but in the creepy way a Tarantino flick pulls off. You may like watching them, but you'd move away if they were in the next flat over. Mostly, they left me cold and not wanting to spend any time with them. Worse, is that the whole idea of their dialogue tree is playing "unlock the Force," and ends abruptly once you do. The higher level caps, the overdone workbench (good idea, but if they'd spent less time on it...), and the rest seemed like this was a game for the munchkins. And the <i>sterotypical</i> munchkin doesn't like much plot...

Splitting the antagonism between the three weakened them all. With Malak, you were focused, you had your target, you had your treasure hunt, and you weren't directionless. With this one, you didn't have a focus. The treasure hunt? You find the Jedi and kill them. You find the Jedi and spare them. It does not matter. They have no part to play in the hunting down and destroying of the enemies you face. They don't lead you to Nihilus and Sion, save the Vash trap on Korriban. They'd be GREAT enemy concepts alone, but as a whole they're speed bumps.


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