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Old 06-19-2006, 07:46 PM   #1
Revan435
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The Sith'ari

Got this off of Wikipedia so this could be a lot of BS but might be what happens in kotor III

Around the time of the Jedi Civil War, the coming of the Sith'ari, an ancient Sith prophecy, became somewhat well known in Darth Revan's Sith Empire. The Sith'ari was said to be a perfect being who would rise to power and bring balance to the Force. According to prophecy, the Sith'ari would rise up and destroy the Sith, but in the process would return to lead the Sith and make them stronger than ever before. It is believed that the prophecy of the Sith Sith'ari and the prophecies of the Jedi Chosen One refer to the same individual; namely Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader, who made the Sith stronger than ever by wiping out the Jedi Knights and assisting Darth Sidious in his rise to power, but then destroyed the Sith when he betrayed and killed Sidious, thus fulfilling the ancient prophecy of the Sith'ari.

i know the prophecy was compeleted by Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader but what if there was a choosen one before him. Tell me what u think
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Old 06-19-2006, 07:50 PM   #2
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Question

Quote:
Got this off of Wikipedia so this could be a lot of BS
Why would there be BS in it since it's from Wikipedia?


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Old 06-19-2006, 08:03 PM   #3
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because i heard some stuff on that site arent true plus i think u can edit the site no matter who u are and there are some ppl out there who dont ahve a clue

maybe this is what revan is searching for. might be cool to play as the sith'ari.

Last edited by Revan435; 06-19-2006 at 08:26 PM.
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Old 06-19-2006, 09:08 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKA-001
Why would there be BS in it since it's from Wikipedia?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime (From The Sith RACE Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawke
Trust wikipedia, I would not!
You are wise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbl1
It's pretty hard to make up stuff on the wikipedia. they do a good job.
Are you kidding? It is easy to make stuff up, and it happens all the time:

http://www.aspendailynews.com/article_14537
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/a...ow/1657588.cms
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,19501894-2,00.html
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/06...e_your_grades/
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepu...wikis0610.html
http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/chan...contentid=3569
etc.

Even it's creator says that it can't always be trusted.
http://www.trimmail.com/news/elsewhe...1150480413.24/

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbl1
Trust Wookieepedia, I would.
Wookiepedia is really fanon. While it can be a useful site to get the general idea about a topic, it can't be trusted to provide a canon source of information. Just look at the amount of editing and arguments that go on there over what is correct (you can start at Recent Changes). A lot of the time it is just fan speculation without any solid supporting evidence.

Here is just one of many examples.

Actually, I would suggest that the Unofficial Encyclopedia is a better source, since at least there each entry comes from specific cited sources.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tb1
Try changing something on the wikipedia to something you know is incorrect.
As I pointed out above, this happens constantly, and can remain incorrect for months before it is corrected, if it is at all.
I couldn't say it better...


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Last edited by RedHawke; 06-20-2006 at 12:38 AM.
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Old 06-20-2006, 12:34 AM   #5
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Yuthura Ban tells you of the Sith'ari prophecy in K1.

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Old 06-20-2006, 02:30 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by deathdisco
Yuthura Ban tells you of the Sith'ari prophecy in K1.
No, really?!?!?! What a revelation

Yes, Wikipedia is full of rubbish and can't be trusted. For the Sith'ari, it was indeed referring to Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader.


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Old 06-20-2006, 07:27 AM   #7
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Statistically, Wikipedia has fewer errors per one thousand errors than any 'hard' encyclopedia. Yes, there are bound to be idiots who throw in false information, but as a whole, it's just as accurate, if not more so, than any other resource.
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Old 06-20-2006, 08:37 AM   #8
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the thread was supposed to discuss the Sith'ari prophecy not the accuracy of Wikipedia, although i dont trust it like most of you coz its open to everyone to right thier own informations and sometimes fiction...anyway, as i have stated in many threads before...my idea of perfection of KotOR III is to play as the Sith'ari...and here is my idea
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Old 06-20-2006, 10:43 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deathdisco
Yuthura Ban tells you of the Sith'ari prophecy in K1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Windu
No, really?!?!?! What a revelation
I've wondered what significance Yuthura's mention of the Sith'ari in KotOR had. Was it foreshadowing something for use in future KotOR games or was it simply a matter of overzealous dialogue writing? I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

IMO Wiki's are only good when they use readily verifiable and authoritative sources. Absent that they're only so much opinion/interpretation from various individuals who may or may not know what they're talking about. So if there is a quote out there from George Lucas where Mr. Lucas states Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader fulfilled the Chosen One/Sith'ari prophecy then I would consider that authoritative.

If (a big if) the info about the Sith'ari prophecy in the Wookiepedia quote is accurate then it's not readily apparent to me that Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader fulfilled that prophecy. I would welcome anyone who could provide more authoritative sources about the Sith'ari prophecy that would shed a little more light on the question at hand.


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Old 06-20-2006, 10:59 AM   #10
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In answer to what Revan435 said, I don't think that would make sense. The prophecy said that he would destroy the Sith, so how that happen twice? If there was a "chosen one" before the movies, then they wouldn't be waiting for one - in their minds, the prophecy would already be fulfilled.

And personally, I do believe that Sith'ari = Chosen One.
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Old 06-20-2006, 11:00 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor
Statistically, Wikipedia has fewer errors per one thousand errors than any 'hard' encyclopedia. Yes, there are bound to be idiots who throw in false information, but as a whole, it's just as accurate, if not more so, than any other resource.
Yes and no. Wikipedia, and especially Wookieepedia, might have a comparable number of errors to a standard encyclopedia, but they have way more conjecture and opinions. Much of the stuff on there might not be technically wrong in the sense that there is hard proof against it, but in many cases there isn't any evidence supporting it either.

That is why it is less reliable, especially wookieepedia. For example:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wookieepedia
Sometime during the early history of the First Sith Empire, the coming of the Sith'ari, an exemplar of the Sith ideal, was foretold. The Sith'ari was prophesied a perfect being free of all restrictions who would rise to power and, according to the legend, destroy the Sith—yet, through their destruction, make them stronger than ever. According to the description, it might have referred to Kaan although he was never qualified to be genetically "perfect".

Some have drawn parallels to the Sith'ari and the Chosen One of Jedi legend, theorising that they are one and the same—Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader who qualifies better the role of "perfect being".
How so? By the time he became a Sith he was already damaged goods. And by the time of his death he was mostly machine and considered damaged goods by Palpatine, which was why he sought to replace him with Luke. He was hardly a perfect being while he was a Sith.

Note that it also states that he would be free of all restrictions and rise to power. Vader never rose to power. He was always the apprentice to Palpatine (and arguably also under the command of Tarkin). Palpatine was always more powerful than Anakin. So how can Anakin be the all-powerful Sith'ari if he isn't even the dominant or most powerful Sith in his own time?

These comments are completely fan conjecture without any real supporting evidence, especially from the developers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wookieepedia
Furthermore, Skywalker appears to have been the Sith'ari, as he destroyed the Sith at Endor when he killed Palpatine and later died. However, the Sith appeared to have returned stronger, as shown by the appearance of the new Sith Order c. 130 ABY.
WTF? The Sith'ari prophecy says that he/she will "destroy the Sith—yet, through their destruction, make them stronger than ever." Then what is said above shows that Anakin is not the Sith'ari. He did destroy the Sith, but how did they become stronger because of it? At that point they ceased to exist! The new Sith from Legacy that he is refering to were started by Darth Krayt on Korriban (learning from ancient teaching presumably) 40 years after the fact, and currently it is apparent that there is absolutely no connection between Palpatine/Vader and this new Order.

Anakin is not the Sith'ari. The author is simply making this up. And this is made even more clear if you go to the discussion section and look at his ramblings (apparently Anakin killing Dooku makes him the Sith'ari too!).

Quote:
Originally Posted by wookieepedia
Behind the scenes
Despite the numerous beings the Sith'ari could be, due to Bioware's attempts to connect the Star Wars universe during the Galactic Civil War era and the KotOR era, it is most likely referring to Anakin Skywalker.
Again, complete fan conjecture with absolutely no supporting evidence. Basically, this guy forgot to put "my ass" under the sources section.

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Old 06-20-2006, 02:13 PM   #12
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The entire SW universe is all fiction, when you get down to the bottom line.
As long as an author of a story or game doesn't do something that directly contradicts the movies, I'm happy.

There are so many people writing so many games, comics/graphic novels/whatever the name is lately, books, etc. that there are going to be inconsistencies and continuity breaks in the EU. It's hard enough to keep out continuity errors just in one book, much less trying to check against all the other EU things.

On some of these debates, you can argue til the cows come home because there's just not enough data, or consistent data, to make any kind of definitive conclusion. Just about any conclusion could be valid in those situations. A lot of the stuff is just conjecture or subject to interpretation, anyway, because it's so vague. If someone wanted to say for a game that all angsty Telosian pilots are from the 'true Sith', then they could, as long as they had a reasonable explanation and a well-written story. Not everyone might agree with it, but what's the worst they're going to do? Say that they don't agree with it? Big deal.

R435 asks an interesting question, and I just don't know the answer with 100% certainty. I'm inclined to believe that a. Anakin was 'The Chosen One' and b. there were no others, mainly because it says 'Chosen One' and not 'Chosen Ones'. Even the 'Chosen One' prophecy itself is somewhat vague. However, if Lucas came out with some other explanation that fit even better, I'd go with that since it's his little universe.


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Old 06-20-2006, 02:40 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
The entire SW universe is all fiction, when you get down to the bottom line.
Lies.


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Old 06-21-2006, 12:02 AM   #14
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No, really?!?!?! What a revelation
WTF. I was confirming that the Sith'ari prophecy was actually in game since Wikipedia's accuracy is in question. Don't assume everyone has heard every piece of dialog in game.

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Old 06-21-2006, 02:10 AM   #15
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The Wookieepedia's Sith'ari article quoted by Revan435 <link> cites two sources, KotOR and The New Essential Chronology.

Here is the one from KotOR...
Context: Yuthura Ban providing more detailed explanation of the following line from the Sith Code, "Through victory my chains are broken."
Quote:
Yuthura Ban: This... has been argued over, and often. The chains represent our restrictions, both those placed upon us and those we place upon ourselves. Ultimately the goal of any Sith is to free herself from such restrictions. In a way, it is so we may do whatever we wish... but it is much more than that. One who has freed themselves from all restrictions has reached perfection. Their potential fulfilled. Perfect strength, perfect power, perfect destiny. Imagine it. That is our ideal, at any rate. It is said in Sith legend that the 'Sith'ari'... the perfect being... will one day lead us. But perhaps that is just a legend.

PC: You don't think the Sith'ari can exist?

Yuthura Ban: I... wonder what a being would be like. The legends say the Sith'ari will destroy us... and make us stronger than ever. But perhaps that is just a legend. Perfection is... a goal, I think, rather than a state of being. The Jedi would argue that, no doubt.
I don't have a copy of the NEC so if someone who does wants to look it up and post a quote of whatever the NEC states about the Sith'ari...

Using Google to search the Internet for Sith'ari references yielded mostly forum and blog entries. I didn't take the time to read them all but the few I did seemed to think that the Sith'ari and Chosen One prophecies are probably about the same person. From what little information the EU seems to contain about the Sith'ari I just don't see how all these Star Wars fans can make such a conclusion when there is so little evidence to support it.

At this point my thought is the Sith'ari was thrown into KotOR for potential future use in the series. Beyond that is anybody's guess. Yuthura's passing reference to the Sith'ari is vague enough to be retconned many different ways in future KotOR games, including not using it at all. IMO this gives the game series the advantage of not locking succeeding games into using the Sith'ari in their storyline if the writers don't want to. Of course the reference is there to build off of just as well. This situation reminds me of Ajunta Pall's abstract references to the true source of the ancient Sith Lord's power in KotOR. Perhaps Ajunta Pall was talking about Malachor V but he still could have been talking about another location just as well. I don't remember anything from TSL that made me think, "Oh, this is the place Ajunta Pall was talking about in KotOR."


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Old 06-21-2006, 09:34 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
Yes and no. Wikipedia, and especially Wookieepedia, might have a comparable number of errors to a standard encyclopedia, but they have way more conjecture and opinions. Much of the stuff on there might not be technically wrong in the sense that there is hard proof against it, but in many cases there isn't any evidence supporting it either.

That is why it is less reliable, especially wookieepedia. For example:

How so? By the time he became a Sith he was already damaged goods. And by the time of his death he was mostly machine and considered damaged goods by Palpatine, which was why he sought to replace him with Luke. He was hardly a perfect being while he was a Sith.

Note that it also states that he would be free of all restrictions and rise to power. Vader never rose to power. He was always the apprentice to Palpatine (and arguably also under the command of Tarkin). Palpatine was always more powerful than Anakin. So how can Anakin be the all-powerful Sith'ari if he isn't even the dominant or most powerful Sith in his own time?

These comments are completely fan conjecture without any real supporting evidence, especially from the developers.

WTF? The Sith'ari prophecy says that he/she will "destroy the Sith—yet, through their destruction, make them stronger than ever." Then what is said above shows that Anakin is not the Sith'ari. He did destroy the Sith, but how did they become stronger because of it? At that point they ceased to exist! The new Sith from Legacy that he is refering to were started by Darth Krayt on Korriban (learning from ancient teaching presumably) 40 years after the fact, and currently it is apparent that there is absolutely no connection between Palpatine/Vader and this new Order.

Anakin is not the Sith'ari. The author is simply making this up. And this is made even more clear if you go to the discussion section and look at his ramblings (apparently Anakin killing Dooku makes him the Sith'ari too!).

Again, complete fan conjecture with absolutely no supporting evidence. Basically, this guy forgot to put "my ass" under the sources section.
I couldn't agree more.

Anyways, Since we are getting into a debate of who and who isn't the Sith'ari, I suppose one could bestow the title upon Darth Krayt, Technically he destroyed the Order by abolishing the Rule Of Two, and made it stronger by conquering the Galaxy and uniting all sith under his Iron banner.


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Old 06-21-2006, 11:23 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
How so? By the time he became a Sith he was already damaged goods. And by the time of his death he was mostly machine and considered damaged goods by Palpatine, which was why he sought to replace him with Luke. He was hardly a perfect being while he was a Sith.
At the time of Anakin's turning to the dark side, namely the scene in Palpatine's "office" with Mace Windu, he was probably the most powerful force-user alive. And at that time, no, he wasn't "damaged goods" yet. As for not being perfect, Yuthura did say that "perfection is... a goal, I think, rather than a state of being."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
Note that it also states that he would be free of all restrictions and rise to power. Vader never rose to power. He was always the apprentice to Palpatine (and arguably also under the command of Tarkin). Palpatine was always more powerful than Anakin. So how can Anakin be the all-powerful Sith'ari if he isn't even the dominant or most powerful Sith in his own time?
When Vader killed Palps in RotJ, he picked him up and carried him all the way to a shaft, while being hit with Sith lightning. Yet even the "more powerful" emperor couldn't stop Vader from tossing him off a ledge, even with all the Sith powers at his disposal. Vader died afterwards from this (and so fulfilling the part about destroying the Sith, perhaps).

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthSion101
Anyways, Since we are getting into a debate of who and who isn't the Sith'ari, I suppose one could bestow the title upon Darth Krayt, Technically he destroyed the Order by abolishing the Rule Of Two, and made it stronger by conquering the Galaxy and uniting all sith under his Iron banner.
That might be true, although I don't really know anything about all that. In a sense, that seems to fill the "requirements." But the prophecy was before Bane's Rule of Two, when the Sith were hundreds of dark force users. So merely rejecting that rule would not be destroying the Sith (even if you mean destroying the Order of those Sith - because of what I said about the time of the prophecy). If anything, it would be that "free of restrictions" part, perhaps. If Krayt is the Sith'ari... well, maybe his actions could cause the destruction of all the Sith, and yet what he did with the Rule of Two and all that made them stronger... I dunno.

I'm not really arguing that Anakin is the "Sith'ari", although that is what I have thought it was. I really don't know anything about Darth Krayt, either - just what I got off of (ironically) Wookieepedia.

But anyways, there might always be this possibility; after all, Yuthura had her doubts:

"A prophecy.... that misread could have been." - Yoda
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Old 06-21-2006, 01:20 PM   #18
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the choosen one is Anakin now doubts, but is he the Sith'ari? i guess not...coz Anakin is a Jedi, offcourse he fell into the darkness but he remained a Jedi, even when he is a "sith" he still had a good side...so my idea about Anakin is that his turning was not an evil way but a destined way to fulfill his fate as the choosen one...the force will i mean...like in Odepos who tried to avoid his doom only to fall into it...so, the idea is that the Sith'ari should be a Sith or a Jedi who fell deeply into the dark side...if we take Revan's dark ending for examble...he destroyed the sith ruled by Malak only to lead them and make them stronger but since this is not the cannonical ending then Revan is not what we're seeking...
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Old 06-21-2006, 01:28 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
The entire SW universe is all fiction, when you get down to the bottom line.
As long as an author of a story or game doesn't do something that directly contradicts the movies, I'm happy.
But we aren't talking about the inconsistencies in the actually story, but the inconsistencies of random fans adding inaccurate or unproven ideas into wookieepedia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
There are so many people writing so many games, comics/graphic novels/whatever the name is lately, books, etc. that there are going to be inconsistencies and continuity breaks in the EU. It's hard enough to keep out continuity errors just in one book, much less trying to check against all the other EU things.
Sure. There are always going to be inconsistencies, but it is the purpose of LL to prevent those as much as possible. And one of the problems with wookieepedia is that it out of the control of LL, and so not validated to the same degree, if at all.

Basically, it is up to the other fans to call bull****.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
At the time of Anakin's turning to the dark side, namely the scene in Palpatine's "office" with Mace Windu, he was probably the most powerful force-user alive. And at that time, no, he wasn't "damaged goods" yet.
But at that time we wasn't more powerful than Palpatine, who indirectly says to in ROTS when he says that, "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us." He isn't at that point. And after his injuries and by the time of ROTJ, Lucas has stated that Vader was about 80% as powerful as Palpatine, whereas he would have been twice as powerful had he not been injured. So at no time was he more powerful than Palpatine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
When Vader killed Palps in RotJ, he picked him up and carried him all the way to a shaft, while being hit with Sith lightning. Yet even the "more powerful" emperor couldn't stop Vader from tossing him off a ledge, even with all the Sith powers at his disposal. Vader died afterwards from this (and so fulfilling the part about destroying the Sith, perhaps).
Even if what Lucas has said was not true and Vader was more powerful, how did he complete the Sith'ari prophecy? Yes, he destroyed them, but how did he make them more powerful? They ceased to exist upon his death.

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Old 06-21-2006, 06:03 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
Even if what Lucas has said was not true and Vader was more powerful, how did he complete the Sith'ari prophecy? Yes, he destroyed them, but how did he make them more powerful? They ceased to exist upon his death.
That is why I said that I am not directly arguing that Anakin is the Sith'ari - I still have some doubts myself.
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Old 06-22-2006, 01:17 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
Even if what Lucas has said was not true and Vader was more powerful, how did he complete the Sith'ari prophecy? Yes, he destroyed them, but how did he make them more powerful? They ceased to exist upon his death.
Anakin was more powerful than Dooku, so it made the Sith stronger for one of their members to be replaced by someone more powerful. And like you said, he also destroyed the Sith, so that fulfills the prophecy.


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Old 06-22-2006, 04:45 AM   #22
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only in a reverse way...assuming that when Anakin joined the sith he made them more powerful...still he destroyed them at the end, and this is not like what the prophecy said...he must destroy them first then make them stronger.
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Old 06-22-2006, 10:20 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Anakin was more powerful than Dooku, so it made the Sith stronger for one of their members to be replaced by someone more powerful. And like you said, he also destroyed the Sith, so that fulfills the prophecy.
As Korfredonn says, you have it backwards. To fulfill the prophecy he has to make the Sith stronger as a result of destroying them. But he didn't, he made them stronger and then destroyed them, causing them to cease to exist.

Unless you are saying that by there not being any Sith they are really powerful.

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Old 06-22-2006, 10:46 AM   #24
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I've wondered what significance Yuthura's mention of the Sith'ari in KotOR had. Was it foreshadowing something for use in future KotOR games or was it simply a matter of overzealous dialogue writing? I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Considering that Bioware did the first game, and Obsidian the second, i'D say it is not foreshadowing.
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Old 06-22-2006, 10:26 PM   #25
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So at no time was he more powerful than Palpatine.
Even if Lucas said that Vader was 80% as powerful as Palps, that just doesn't stand up to logic. Vader destroyed Palps while being hit full force with force lighting from a Sith whose force lighting left Luke writhing on the floor in agony, sent Yoda flying across a room, and shot Mace Windu across a large chunk of a city. If Palps was more powerful wouldn't he have won the fight?

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Even if what Lucas has said was not true and Vader was more powerful, how did he complete the Sith'ari prophecy? Yes, he destroyed them, but how did he make them more powerful? They ceased to exist upon his death.
He destroyed the Jedi order, allowing the Sith to rule the galaxy. Sounds like he made them more powerful to me. Once destroyed, there would be no Sith to make more powerful, so he had to make them more powerful before he destroyed them. And that's just what he did.
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Old 06-23-2006, 02:02 AM   #26
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Well, since nobody provided any other sources I broke down and picked up a copy of Star Wars: The New Essential Chronology. I read through the first 31 pages, covering 25,000-1,000 BBY and found no mention of the Sith'ari prophecy. I don't know what the Wookieepedia article used from TNEC but I think this demonstrates another weakness with wikis; lack of proper source citation. My guess is that the article cites TNEC for its Chosen One references.
Quote:
It is said in Sith legend that the 'Sith'ari'... the perfect being... will one day lead us.
The legends say the Sith'ari will destroy us... and make us stronger than ever.
So if all this hullabaloo is about these two sentences from one character in KotOR I'm astounded by how much people have read into it. If anything this thread has served as a real-life lesson for me on how people will leap across massive evidentiary holes to reach a conclusion. Perhaps the Sith'ari legend is about Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader but I don't think so. Prime has made very strong and compelling arguments to the contrary.
Quote:
It is said in Sith legend that the 'Sith'ari'... the perfect being... will one day lead us.
I don't see how Vader with his mechanical arms and legs was the perfect being, unless you define "perfect being" as being conceived by the Force. And as Prime stated, Vader never led the Sith, it was the Emperor/Sidious who was the Sith master.
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The legends say the Sith'ari will destroy us... and make us stronger than ever.
If the order of the above sentence is accurate then Vader isn't the guy. As Korfredonn The Ecclesiastes and Prime have already stated, Vader made the Sith stronger (by following Sidious' orders to destroy the Jedi) then destroyed the Sith when he threw Sidious into the bowels of the second Death Star and himself died a short while later. Of course if one chooses to believe the order of Yuthura's statement isn't important and only finding someone in SW lore that destroyed the Sith as well as made them stronger then Vader could be the guy. What I will say is that Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader is the closest fit for the Sith'ari legend related by Yuthura Ban but he still doesn't fit the description provided.

I still think if the only reference to the Sith'ari legend is in KotOR then future KotOR games may expand more on the concept.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinervadonella
Vader destroyed Palps while being hit full force with force lighting from a Sith whose force lighting left Luke writhing on the floor in agony, sent Yoda flying across a room, and shot Mace Windu across a large chunk of a city.
As you may recall, Vader grabbed Sidious from behind and the force lightning emanating from Sidious' hands flowed back down across Sidious' body and then over Vader's armored form, hardly the "full force" attack suffered by Mace Windu, Yoda, and Luke Skywalker.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinervadonella
If Palps was more powerful wouldn't he have won the fight?
What fight? The simple fact of the matter is Sidious was too focused on frying Luke to realize his apprentice was about to betray him. If Sidious and Vader had faced off in a regular challenge where both were prepared for combat I fully expect Sidous would have soundly defeated Vader.


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Old 06-23-2006, 11:57 AM   #27
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But we aren't talking about the inconsistencies in the actually story, but the inconsistencies of random fans adding inaccurate or unproven ideas into wookieepedia.

Sure. There are always going to be inconsistencies, but it is the purpose of LL to prevent those as much as possible. And one of the problems with wookieepedia is that it out of the control of LL, and so not validated to the same degree, if at all.

Basically, it is up to the other fans to call bull****.
My bad in communicating--when I wrote that, I was thinking about appreciating the irony of all the serious debate over proper citations to an entirely fictional universe, which has its own continuity problems and contradictions, as if it were some serious, world-altering academic subject like the cure for AIDS or solution for world peace. I just didn't say it quite right the first time around because I was trying to type that at work in my bits of free time that are scattered throughout the day.
Since wookie-and wikipedia are talking about a fictional universe anyway, I'm not too worried if they say something wrong (unless they outright lie, then I'd call them on it). I'd demand accuracy out of a journal article on how to treat eye infections, for instance, because mistakes in something like that could cause people serious damage. For a piece of fiction, however, I'm not going to get nearly as excited if they get something wrong, even though I'm a pretty big fan and want it correct as much as possible. If they speculate, I'd like them to label it as such. If an error is found, I'd like them to correct it. If I ever did another research paper on SW (did one in Religion class in college), I wouldn't use the -pedias anyway--I'd go directly to the source. And yes, since I get into the same kinds of debates about some really trivial SW things (my friends and I had some spirited debates over what color Luke's lightsaber would be in RotJ, for instance) and have been a serious fan since it came out in '77, I can laugh at myself for that irony, too.


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Old 06-23-2006, 01:14 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Prime
But we aren't talking about the inconsistencies in the actually story, but the inconsistencies of random fans adding inaccurate or unproven ideas into wookieepedia.
Actually, I think that we are supposed to be talking about the Sith'ari. There is already a thread about Wikipedia's trustworthyness here.

It really seems as if the Chosen One prophecy and the Sith'ari prophecys are just different versions of the same prophecy.

The Chosen One prophecy stated that one strong in the Force would bring balance to the Force and destroy the Sith.

The Sith'ari stated that a being would destroy the Sith and make them more powerfull.

Anakin Skywalker fufilled both of these prophecys. He destroyed the Sith, brought balance to the Force, and made the Sith more stronger (although I don't know if he made them stronger by being a Sith, or destroying them).

That's just my measly thoughts.


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Old 06-23-2006, 02:52 PM   #29
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I would imagine that if you are going to discuss the Sith'ari prophecy...the big questions that you have to ask are:

1. Is the Jedi chosen one/Sith Sith'ari one in the same...
2. Was the order of Yuthura words important...
3. Who would fit the bill...

My answers

1. I do no think that the Jedi chosen one and Sith Sith'ari prophecies are one in the same. My only reason behind this is that the groups differing views make it hard for me to see them agreeing on anything.

2. I do think that the order of the prophecy is important...which means destroy to make stronger...

3. Possible candidates
a. Anakin - according to source material Darth Vader destroys P and then dies him self, ending the Sith threat. No sith around to make them stronger...

b. Revan - canonical ending is Revan light side...

c. the Exile - definetly a possibility considering he destroys both the Jedi and Sith...and has the choice to "rebuild an order" as he sees fit...
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Old 06-24-2006, 11:31 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zinervadonella
Even if Lucas said that Vader was 80% as powerful as Palps, that just doesn't stand up to logic. Vader destroyed Palps while being hit full force with force lighting from a Sith whose force lighting left Luke writhing on the floor in agony, sent Yoda flying across a room, and shot Mace Windu across a large chunk of a city. If Palps was more powerful wouldn't he have won the fight?
So Vader is more powerful because he in essense "sucker punched" the emperor? The only thing Vader did in that situation of note was that he "took it" for a few seconds. He then died, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zinervadonella
He destroyed the Jedi order, allowing the Sith to rule the galaxy. Sounds like he made them more powerful to me. Once destroyed, there would be no Sith to make more powerful, so he had to make them more powerful before he destroyed them. And that's just what he did.
This makes no sense.

Even with ignoring that Palpatine was more powerful, you have yet to show how the extinction of the Sith somehow makes them more powerful. How does making them more powerful before their destruction equal making them more powerful after, which is what is required for Vader to fulfill that prophecy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthOxyClean
Actually, I think that we are supposed to be talking about the Sith'ari. There is already a thread about Wikipedia's trustworthyness here.
Yes, but debating the validity of the source of the material on wookieepedia is relevant to the discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthOxyClean
It really seems as if the Chosen One prophecy and the Sith'ari prophecys are just different versions of the same prophecy.

The Chosen One prophecy stated that one strong in the Force would bring balance to the Force and destroy the Sith.

The Sith'ari stated that a being would destroy the Sith and make them more powerfull.
But balancing the Force is a result of destroying the Sith, and thus the dark side (since the dark side is a corruption of the natural balance of the Force). With no dark side and no Sith, how are they more powerful?

So I ask those who believe that Anakin is the Sith'ari: Upon the death of Vader and Palpatine, how are the Sith more powerful than they were before that point?

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Old 06-24-2006, 04:11 PM   #31
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But balancing the Force is a result of destroying the Sith, and thus the dark side (since the dark side is a corruption of the natural balance of the Force).
You could also argue that the Light side is also a corruption, and (If the Jedi immensely out number the Sith or Darkside users) destroying the Jedi could also balance the force.

After the events of KOTOR 2, when there were no Sith and no Jedi left (that is canonical event) the Force could have been in balance. (I don't think so, but it is possible)

The Force is, well, like a....see-saw..???? Ok, see-saw. When the Force is in balance, well, the..um, see-saw is perfectly horizontal.

The Force:

Before Battle of Naboo: Light Side of the Force immensely greater than darkside; See-saw: unbalanced, greater Light Side amount

Battle of Naboo-Ep. II: Darkside increasing; See-Saw: slowly balancing

Clone Wars-Ep. III: Darkside greater than lightside; See-saw: un balanced, greater dark side amount

Ep. III-Battle of Endor: Darkside greater than lightside; See-saw: un-balanced

Vader dies: Force is balanced, See-saw: perfectly horizontal

Then of course, it becomes unbalanced again once the Jedi are renewed.

Sorry for the lame "see-saw" analogy, but that is how I view the Force's state. It will never stay balanced for long, due to the constant shifts in light and dark side amounts.


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Last edited by RedHawke; 06-25-2006 at 01:33 AM. Reason: Combining double post... no more. Ok? Perhaps buy a fan for extra cooling.
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Old 06-25-2006, 01:54 PM   #32
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you guys all have a point, but im thouroughly convinced that Anakin is not the Sith'ari. He didn't destroy the sith and make them stronger, he made them stronger and then destroyed them. Besides, he wasn't what a sith would call perfect, because in the end he came to the light side again, and that is the opposite of what a sith would want in their "perfect" leader.
The sith'ari could just be some interesting dialogue put into Kotor for no reason. Or it could be a plotline for something else.....


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Old 06-26-2006, 11:34 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by DarthOxyClean
You could also argue that the Light side is also a corruption, and (If the Jedi immensely out number the Sith or Darkside users) destroying the Jedi could also balance the force.
This has been discussed at length around here already. You can do a search to see what was discussed before if you are interested.

The short answer is that the presense of the Sith and the dark side are what creates an imbalance to the natural balanced state of the regular force. There really isn't a light side per se, only the force and the dark side.

Ask yourself this, if what you say is true, does the Jedi's actions regarding Anakin make any sense whatsoever?

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Old 06-26-2006, 04:11 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
Ask yourself this, if what you say is true, does the Jedi's actions regarding Anakin make any sense whatsoever?
Which actions are you speaking of?


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Old 06-26-2006, 04:40 PM   #35
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Surely it is arguable that Revan is the Sith'ari. After all he destroys the Sith by leaving, according to TSL,and after leaving, Traya, Sion and Nihilus virtuallly destroy the Jedi, each of them becoming incredibly powerful, possibly more powerful than any single Force user until then...?

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Old 06-26-2006, 10:18 PM   #36
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Quote:
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Which actions are you speaking of?
The act of training Anakin.

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Old 06-27-2006, 02:30 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Prime
The act of training Anakin.
Ah. Well, do we know for sure that the Jedi knew about the Sith'ari prophecy??

The Jedi's desperate belief in a Chosen One overruled their fears about Anakin's future, which ultimatly sealed their fate.


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Old 06-28-2006, 12:31 AM   #38
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Prime, I'm going to have to disagree with you. I believe both prophecies are of the same person(Anakin). If I remember correctly the Jedi’s version did not pan out as they thought either.
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...it was said that you would destroy the Sith not join them, bring balance to the Force not leave it in darkness.
The Force will complete the prophecy as it sees fit.

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Old 06-28-2006, 06:12 AM   #39
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Wookiepedia is not always right, but many things are true!
People who want to know everything about the True Sith Empire and Sith'ari should go to Hyperspace @Starwars.com,


But one of the most interesting thing i have red is this:


http://boards.theforce.net/literatur...03/23803387/p1

It's about the True Sith Empire and other pre-Republic races: Kwa, Celestials, Killik
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Old 06-28-2006, 11:44 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthOxyClean
Ah. Well, do we know for sure that the Jedi knew about the Sith'ari prophecy??
It doesn't matter if they did or not. Training Anakin would still make no sense if your "see-saw" analogy was true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthOxyClean
The Jedi's desperate belief in a Chosen One overruled their fears about Anakin's future, which ultimatly sealed their fate.
But that's the thing. If the Force really worked as a light/dark numbers game, then the Jedi would know that by being by far the most numerous, they were the ones causing the Force to be unbalanced. They know there can't be more than two Sith, and at that time they assumed they were extinct, meaning that they were unbalancing the Force as much as was possible.

So Anakin comes along who they believe is the Chosen One, who is supposed to bring balance to the Force. In your case, what would that require? The destruction of the Jedi Order! Why on earth would Qui-Gon and the rest of the Jedi be so hell bent (to the point of ignoring their own rules) on training someone who they know will destroy them?

Would that make any sense whatsoever?

Also, since Luke is alive at the end, how did Anakin balance everything out when he died? There is still more light than dark again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by deathdisco
Prime, I'm going to have to disagree with you. I believe both prophecies are of the same person(Anakin). If I remember correctly the Jedi’s version did not pan out as they thought either.
Actually, it panned out exactly as it was written (or at least the way we are told). Anakin did indeed fulfill the Chosen One prophecy by destroying the Sith and thus bringing balance to the Force when he killed the emperor, was redeemed, and died.

The problem was the Jedi did not realize the path he would take on the road to fulfilling the prophecy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deathdisco
Quote:
...it was said that you would destroy the Sith not join them, bring balance to the Force not leave it in darkness.
And herein lies the problem. Kenobi and presumably the other Jedi assumed that destroying the Sith meant that the Chosen One would never join them. On the surface that makes sense, but the prophecy never actually says that he wouldn't join them. It only says that he will destroy them. It was that mistaken assumption of the Jedi that proved to be fatal to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deathdisco
The Force will complete the prophecy as it sees fit.
But like all Star Wars movie prophecies, they come true, but not as you expect. For example, Padme did die in childbirth, just as Anakin fortold. But not for the reasons he assumed.

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