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Old 06-30-2006, 10:38 PM   #1
Feagildin
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100% Completion

I think it's time the developers learned how to accomplish this. I can't stand having an open quest that I already completed. It drives me nuts. Almost as nuts as having both Goto and HK talk about a factory for the HK-50s and then not be able to find it, or Mandalore being on a quest to gather the clans and not get any experience or anything else for helping. Essentially, I really hope Obsidian finishes making any future games before selling them, even at the cost of waiting another year. (More testing and correction might be an idea, as well.) Opinions anyone?


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Old 07-01-2006, 12:13 AM   #2
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Well if theres a K3 in development, I'd be under the assumption that theres alot ot time & effort being put into it (possibly a new engine?). Don't forget K2 was released only about a single year after KOTOR, and I think just having a different developer do it as well could have put a dent in development. I would hope that a K3 would be a joint venture between Bioware & Obsidian, that could be interesting imo.


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Old 07-01-2006, 01:26 AM   #3
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I doubt Bioware would do K3. They shoved both KotOR2 and NWN2 on Obsidian (who did a darn fine job, given the restrictions LucasArts put on them). They simply didn't want to do KotOR2, so I don't see why they would want to do KotOR3. I'm just following logic here, though.

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Old 07-01-2006, 01:28 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T.Nova
I would hope that a K3 would be a joint venture between Bioware & Obsidian, that could be interesting imo.
Of course, there's about a one in a million chance of that happening.
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Old 07-01-2006, 01:39 AM   #5
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Some tidbits to keep in mind when discussing this kind of topic...
  • Obsidian Entertainment has stated that they 'bit off more than they could chew' with some of their aspirations for TSL, especially within the limited timetable specified by LucasArts from the beginning. They thought they could do a bunch of things that they ultimately could not.
  • LucasArts was ultimately respinsible for all the Q&A Testing, and this what was 'cut' to produce the game by the Holiday season.
  • Obsidian delivered quite a finished product, even with the lack of Q&A Testing, despite some of the cleaning that needed to be done (Like Bioware was able to do for KotOR I), the game is quite playable, and most all of the quests able to be completed. A testement to their skills IMHO.


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Old 07-01-2006, 11:13 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawke
  • Obsidian delivered quite a finished product, even with the lack of Q&A Testing, despite some of the cleaning that needed to be done (Like Bioware was able to do for KotOR I), the game is quite playable, and most all of the quests able to be completed. A testement to their skills IMHO.
Very true. Often I think TSL gets bashed too much for incompleteness around here. It wasn't that unfinished, and it is still a great game.

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Old 07-01-2006, 12:28 PM   #7
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It wasn't that finished, either, and the ending makes virtually no sense on your first and second playthroughs.



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Old 07-01-2006, 01:06 PM   #8
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^ That's the beauty of the game, IMHO - you have to play it more than once to fully understand it.
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Old 07-01-2006, 03:05 PM   #9
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I still prefer Bioware over Obsidian though and I hope that, if there ever gets to be a KoTOR 3, Bioware will be the one to make it.

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Old 07-01-2006, 08:10 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawke
Some tidbits to keep in mind when discussing this kind of topic...
  • Obsidian delivered quite a finished product, even with the lack of Q&A Testing, despite some of the cleaning that needed to be done (Like Bioware was able to do for KotOR I), the game is quite playable, and most all of the quests able to be completed. A testement to their skills IMHO.
Too true.


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Old 07-01-2006, 08:21 PM   #11
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Think Kotor2 is a great game, and i can just image what it would been with no deadline, most of the bugs that have happend to people have never happend to me, so i guess im lucky. The most sad part is the ending and HK-47 factory, HK telling that we can track the HK-50 when it wont lead anywhere

It would be great if Obsidian and Bioware could do Kotor3 togheter, but that won't happend, but i dunno about who i would prefere to do Kotor3, think both Obsidian and Bioware is great.
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Old 07-01-2006, 08:51 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zat
Think Kotor2 is a great game, and i can just image what it would been with no deadline
It would probably have been unfinished and not yet released. Deadlines do exist for a reason, after all.

I think this is a good case of "ignorance is bliss". If people didn't know what had been cut, they wouldn't know what they were missing out on, and thus wouldn't complain as much. In my opinion the game was good overall, though the ending did come off a bit odd. It doesn't bother me though when not everything is completely spelled out and bashed over the player's forhead. Some mysteries and thinking for oneself is not always entirely a bad thing. Neither am I bothered by NPCs talking about things you never encounter in the game. It just shows that the world isn't intended to revolve around your character, and that they don't need to get involved in everything that happens in the universe.

I would imagine that the lesson Obsidian learned from K2:TSL was to completely obliterate any and all traces of unfinished or cut content from further products. Leave nothing to be discovered and complained about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zat
It would be great if Obsidian and Bioware could do Kotor3 togheter, but that won't happend
That is probably quite unlikely to happen. It seems that Bioware is more happy to produce their own products from scatch and not use worlds or franchises licensed from others. Gives them greater control of their own products and won't force them to lock horns with some publisher of questionable competence, bumbling their way towards bankruptcy (NWN/Interplay comes to mind...)


mt

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Old 07-01-2006, 09:07 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawke
Some tidbits to keep in mind when discussing this kind of topic...
  • Obsidian Entertainment has stated that they 'bit off more than they could chew' with some of their aspirations for TSL, especially within the limited timetable specified by LucasArts from the beginning. They thought they could do a bunch of things that they ultimately could not.
  • LucasArts was ultimately respinsible for all the Q&A Testing, and this what was 'cut' to produce the game by the Holiday season.
  • Obsidian delivered quite a finished product, even with the lack of Q&A Testing, despite some of the cleaning that needed to be done (Like Bioware was able to do for KotOR I), the game is quite playable, and most all of the quests able to be completed. A testement to their skills IMHO.
Very true.

I consider this to be Obsidian's learning esperience as a first time company. After reading up on their next project, NWN2, I can honestly say that they are learning. Besides the choppy cleanup job, I am very impressed about the graphics upgrade, influence addition, and several new features. I have been won over in their expereiment.

If everything fell into place right, we should not have know about any cut content. I give them an A-/B+ for their effort. I can see myself buying another RPG from them in the future.

Overall, I think that the 'cut' content is not really important. Yeah, it would be cool to see it. At the end of the day, they produced some interesting and new features. They also upgraded KotOR I's design further.

I think what drove people crazy was that they found the 'cut' content. I don't think this game was intended to be an ESB.

The game is complete. They only needed to manage enough time to stitch up loose ends.
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Old 07-01-2006, 10:54 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Darth InSidious
It wasn't that finished, either, and the ending makes virtually no sense on your first and second playthroughs.
This is a statement of the kind of player who has to have things spoon-fed to you for you to enjoy it. No offense, but I had no troubles with the game or the story, of course I actually listen to as much dialogue as I can and do everything I can when I play an RPG.

Sorry, but I see a complete product.

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I don't think this game was intended to be an ESB.
I honestly do believe it is an ESB... as that is the feeling I got at the end of my first playthrough, and every one afterward.


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Old 07-01-2006, 11:08 PM   #15
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Maybe you are right. I can see the Revan and Exile story being the cliffhanger. I just thought that maybe they wanted it to be complete, but accidently didn't stitch certain plot line. Do you think that people may have missed some of the ending by skipping Kreia's offer of prophecy?

It did feel like a 'what is missing' ending. I think that is one of the reasons why people are fascinated by the game. The possibility for more.
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Old 07-01-2006, 11:35 PM   #16
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Nah, I just think (and hope and pray) that all these gaps in the storyline will be filled in in K3. Maybe the HK50 Factory will be in the game, and maybe some extra plotline will result of regathering the Mandalorian clans. Perhaps we might even be able to witness firsthand the fates of each character in the TSL from Kreia's fortune telling.

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Old 07-02-2006, 01:25 AM   #17
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Do you think that people may have missed some of the ending by skipping Kreia's offer of prophecy?
Absolutely... I knew it when I reached the end the first time... I skipped most of that dialog with Kreia and was granted the ending and immediately went... WTF!!!

Then I remembered the kind of game TSL was, it is a stark contrast to KotOR and its big cinematic ending, so I reloaded the game defeated Kreia again and talked her behind off... the ending just clicked. ESB didn't end with much fanfare either... as a matter of fact I believe it very much indicates the intention to make a sequel.

KotOR was like playing an interactive move, while TSL was very much a throwback to the older purely dialog driven games. Either game style was fine with me, but some of the younger button-mashing generation will definately have issues with the older style of dialog driven games... some can adjust and some wont.


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Old 07-02-2006, 01:47 AM   #18
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I think the feeling the game is incomplete mostly has to do with the ending. Its more than the lack of an end movie, but I think thats a part of it.

Even if they would have shown something simple like the Exile piloting the Hawk and HK saying something like "Question: Well master, where are we going now? I hope I can kill many meatbags." Then maybe showing a thoughful closeup of the Exile before cutting to the ship flying off, it might have helped the feeling of incompletness. I don't know. Just a theory.

After you kill Malak in K1, you get an end movie. End movies are great because they give you a second to sit back and feel like you accomplished something. Its also a bit of closure. You feel like you are done. With K2, nothing. You kill Kreia then credits... It just kinda leaves you empty.


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Old 07-02-2006, 01:59 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Bob Lion54
After you kill Malak in K1, you get an end movie. End movies are great because they give you a second to sit back and feel like you accomplished something. Its also a bit of closure. You feel like you are done. With K2, nothing. You kill Kreia then credits... It just kinda leaves you empty.
You just proved my above point Bob about some people not getting the style of the game, the ending was not cut and was always intended to be the dialog with Kreia... even if we gave OE 5 additional years to polish the game off.

There was never a cinematic ending planned, it isn't that type of game to have one. OE made a different style game from the first KotOR, much in the same way ESB was different from ANH. ANH ended with a big 'cinematic' ending, so did KotOR I, then ESB gives us a darker and more moody story, and a decidedly different ending to the first movie, the same with TSL.


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Old 07-02-2006, 02:26 AM   #20
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Well, yea. It's not so much that I'm saying the ending wasn't complete. Its more a phycological thing.

Since the game is often compared to ESB, lets look at the endings.

K2- Kriea is defeated. She is still alive, but know you will win. She decides she will answer you questions. You talk to her and get the whole story. She dies. The end.

ESB- Vader and Luke fight. Luke is wounded but manages to fall through the garbage shoot. The Falcon rescue him. (See, in the K2 comparison, the movie would end here.) Lando drops Luke and Leia off at a medical ship. You see his new hand being fitted and he talks to Leia. (Its a short scene, but you know the movie is over. You are already reflecting on the movie. In K2 while you talk to Kriea, you are still actively playing. There is no time to reflect before the credits. Just BAM! The End!)

Its a small thing, but I think it is a factor.


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Old 07-02-2006, 02:50 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lion54
In K2 while you talk to Kriea, you are still actively playing. There is no time to reflect before the credits. Just BAM! The End!)
Weather you are "actively playing" matters not, an ending can be anything in an RPG. You have plenty of time to "reflect" later on. There is no "BAM! The End!" either as we do have small and appropriate cinematics at the end of TSL.

As I stated earlier, some will definately have issues with the older style of dialog driven games and a dialog-based ending.

Edit: This isn't saying you don't have a point with your arguments Bob, as I do agree with some of what you have said, but the ending just wasn't a letdown for me, I also realise I am likely in the minority on this one.


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Old 07-02-2006, 04:09 PM   #22
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There was plan that the Exile female left with Atton, and he ask where they were going
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Old 07-02-2006, 04:48 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by RedHawke
Absolutely... I knew it when I reached the end the first time... I skipped most of that dialog with Kreia and was granted the ending and immediately went... WTF!!!
That sounds like the reaction of a player who needs everything spoon-fed to them and rushes through dialogue.

No offense.



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Old 07-02-2006, 10:42 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lion54
ESB- Vader and Luke fight. Luke is wounded but manages to fall through the garbage shoot. The Falcon rescue him. (See, in the K2 comparison, the movie would end here.)
Not quite... In ESB, the Falcon drops Luke off on a rebel ship and shows him gazing out at the galaxy, with a sense that there are greater challenges down the road for him. In TSL, Kreia dies, and the Ebon Hawk flies off towards the Unknown Regions to fight the True Sith, who are more powerful than the false ones, and gives the sense of something greater. Those two endings seem very similar and very complete to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lion54
Lando drops Luke and Leia off at a medical ship. You see his new hand being fitted and he talks to Leia. (Its a short scene, but you know the movie is over. You are already reflecting on the movie. In K2 while you talk to Kriea, you are still actively playing. There is no time to reflect before the credits. Just BAM! The End!)
There's the scene where the Ebon Hawk flies off, but that is short. I never thought that was an issue, though, since the credits are the best time to reflect on the game.

What I don't get is why people think the endings for TSL are so incomplete and awful. Both endings for the game are very fitting for the situation, and there's no logical alternative. Would a more satisfying ending have been showing legions of Sith marching around while the Exile watches them from a high up balcony, or showing crowds of people hailing the Exile as a hero if he/she was good? Probably, but it wouldn't have been as fitting. The Exile had to go into the Unknown Regions to help Revan, so there was no time for anything like that. An ending like that would have been more flashy, but bad for the story. I don't see how a lack of glamor should make the ending for TSL worse than KotOR's.


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Old 07-03-2006, 12:16 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by InyriForge
I doubt Bioware would do K3. They shoved both KotOR2 and NWN2 on Obsidian (who did a darn fine job, given the restrictions LucasArts put on them). They simply didn't want to do KotOR2, so I don't see why they would want to do KotOR3. I'm just following logic here, though.
I was under the impression that Bioware felt they were occupied developing Jade Empire & one of the NWN expansions. So they recommended Obsidian to develop the next game.

---

To jump into this arguement, I did enjoy the game until the end. The ending was badly staged imo, & everything came about too quick. Right after the Jedi Masters on Dantoonie are killed by Kreia, your headed toward the Ravanger. When I first came aboard the Ravanger, I thought to myself "I can't possibly be fighting Nihilus now, it feels too early" & snap, I kill him. Personally I never felt motivated to actually put some closure on Darth Nihilus. There was little backstory to him, & you only confront him this time alone. What does Nihilus do other than send Visas after you? You hear all this hype about him feeding on the force, more presence than flesh. You confront him, you kill him, its done.

Suddenly your off to Malachor V where you crash land on the planet. Your body somehow gets projected from the Ebon Hawk onto the ground & from there you're to find Trayus Academy. Now Redhawke any "button-masher" would have gotten their fill here. Theres nothing but a load of enemies to fight, those beasts (forgot their names) Sith Marauders, a second fight seqeunce between Hanharr & Mira, & two boss battles with Darth Sion & Darth Traya. To be honest with you I had trouble trying to get through this part, I ran out of medpacs real quick trying to kill these groups of 3 or more marauders. Soon I'm sitting behind the door waiting 5 minutes for my health to recover with the regenaration feature.

Imho there wasn't enough dialogue towards the end. I don't ever get much of a chance to speak with my other party members after the Ravenger, I defeat the primary villans & get a fortune cookie from Kreia, then a brief cutscene of the Ebon Hawk flying into space. It all left an unsatisfying taste in my mouth.


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Old 07-03-2006, 12:17 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Not quite... In ESB, the Falcon drops Luke off on a rebel ship and shows him gazing out at the galaxy, with a sense that there are greater challenges down the road for him. In TSL, Kreia dies, and the Ebon Hawk flies off towards the Unknown Regions to fight the True Sith, who are more powerful than the false ones, and gives the sense of something greater. Those two endings seem very similar and very complete to me.



There's the scene where the Ebon Hawk flies off, but that is short. I never thought that was an issue, though, since the credits are the best time to reflect on the game.

What I don't get is why people think the endings for TSL are so incomplete and awful. Both endings for the game are very fitting for the situation, and there's no logical alternative. Would a more satisfying ending have been showing legions of Sith marching around while the Exile watches them from a high up balcony, or showing crowds of people hailing the Exile as a hero if he/she was good? Probably, but it wouldn't have been as fitting. The Exile had to go into the Unknown Regions to help Revan, so there was no time for anything like that. An ending like that would have been more flashy, but bad for the story. I don't see how a lack of glamor should make the ending for TSL worse than KotOR's.

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Old 07-03-2006, 01:45 AM   #27
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My problem with the ending is the loose ends with the party members. What happened between Go-To and T3? How did Mira escape Malachor? How did a badly damaged Ebon Hawk manage to appear right on time to pick up the Exile? I can use my imagination like anyone else, but I wanted to experience those events, not supply the story from my imagination after the game was done. That is, after all, why we play RPG's instead of writing novels.


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Old 07-03-2006, 01:55 AM   #28
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Eh, I suppose I made my post sound quite a bit too harsh, I agree with a lot of what has been posted on Obsidian's behalf, but I still hold to the basis of what I originally said. In my opinion, more testing and being able to complete all the quests is no where near to much to ask. I mean, sure I'll continue playing, and I'll prolly buy NW2 and would definitely consider buying other games from Obsidian.

As for those of you who are complaining about the ending: if you didn't like it, then you can't say you liked the ending for ESB, and if you can't say you liked the ending for ESB, then you can't call yourself a Star Wars fan. No offense, but that's the way I see it.


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Old 07-03-2006, 02:22 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth InSidious
That sounds like the reaction of a player who needs everything spoon-fed to them and rushes through dialogue.

No offense.
Nice try... touched a nerve I see.


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Old 07-03-2006, 02:38 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T.Nova
Right after the Jedi Masters on Dantoonie are killed by Kreia, your headed toward the Ravanger. When I first came aboard the Ravanger, I thought to myself "I can't possibly be fighting Nihilus now, it feels too early" & snap, I kill him.
After over twenty hours of gameplay, boarding the 'Ravager' didn't seem early to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T.Nova
What does Nihilus do other than send Visas after you?
He sends a company of Sith Assassins to kill you on Dxun, he consumes whole worlds, he helps exterminate the Jedi, he wipes out nearly all the Miraluka on Katarr, he has the Sith establish a base on Dxun to control beasts, he sends his soldiers to Onderon to overthrow Talia and therefore destablilize the Republic, he attacks Telos, which could also destabilize the Republic, and he tries to kill you. Oh, and he overthrows Traya, which sets up the story for the whole game. That looks like a large role to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T.Nova
You hear all this hype about him feeding on the force, more presence than flesh. You confront him, you kill him, its done.
When put like that, anything can sound unremarkable. Malak betrays you. You find some maps. You confront him, kill him, and it's done.

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Originally Posted by T.Nova
Your body somehow gets projected from the Ebon Hawk onto the ground & from there you're to find Trayus Academy.
That counts for nothing. T3 was able to get onto the top of the Ebon Hawk in the prologue (probably by using a ladder like the Falcon had) so I don't see why the Exile couldn't. As for finding the Trayus Academy, that's the most logical thing to happen in the story, since two of the three largest antagonists of the game are there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T.Nova
I had trouble trying to get through this part, I ran out of medpacs real quick trying to kill these groups of 3 or more marauders. Soon I'm sitting behind the door waiting 5 minutes for my health to recover with the regenaration feature.
Unlike a button mashing game, RPGs can vary greatly depending on how you play them. I thought the Trayus Academy was too easy, and had to modify the stats of the enemies there to have an enjoyable experience. Since it's possible to get through that area easily, it can have just as much "fill" as a FPS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T.Nova
Imho there wasn't enough dialogue towards the end. I don't ever get much of a chance to speak with my other party members after the Ravenger,
Why would you want to? There would be no purpose. Kreia wants to start executing her plans, so it would be incredibly stupid for the main characters to start chatting with each other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T.Nova
I defeat the primary villans & get a fortune cookie from Kreia, then a brief cutscene of the Ebon Hawk flying into space. It all left an unsatisfying taste in my mouth.
You also get to learn about the third game, a major part of the plot gets explained, and the Ebon Hawk flies off to fight an even greater enemy, whcih sets up the backdrop for a third game. I don't see what's wrong with that. You could also describe the ending of ESB in similarly unremarkable terms. Luke fights one of the primary villains, learns a little family history, and you see the Falcon flying into space.

Also, your views on TSL are somewhat confusing. You don't like the combat system, you dislike the plot, you dislike the ending, you don't like one of the main villains, then you start talking about how bad the game is... so why bother playing it? You obviously don't like it.


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Old 07-03-2006, 03:31 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
After over twenty hours of gameplay, boarding the 'Ravager' didn't seem early to me.
Time scale isn't what I was refering to. More or less the fact that Nihilus never played a large role in the in-game storyline and received alot of "false hype" if you will.

Quote:
He sends a company of Sith Assassins to kill you on Dxun, he consumes whole worlds, he helps exterminate the Jedi, he wipes out nearly all the Miraluka on Katarr, he has the Sith establish a base on Dxun to control beasts, he sends his soldiers to Onderon to overthrow Talia and therefore [destablilize the Republic, he attacks Telos, which could also destabilize the Republic, and he tries to kill you. Oh, and he overthrows Traya, which sets up the story for the whole game. That looks like a large role to me.
What I meant to say was the fact that Darth Nihilus does nothing personal to your character. More or less he simply tries to manipulate a few events here and there. You never actually witness Nihilus devour one of these worlds, you have no personal ties with Katarr so why should you care? Once again the fact that he establishes a Sith base on Dxun does not antagonize your character personally. Despite the fact that he does try to overthorw onderon, all he did was command the order. He tries to kill you? Alot of people try to kill you, only when you reach the bridge do you confront him face to face. Betraying Kreia once again is more or less her problem.

The fact that hes "evil" is not a strong motivation to kill him. Plot wise, he plays a large role but bears little strenght in character while your playing the game.

Quote:
When put like that, anything can sound unremarkable. Malak betrays you. You find some maps. You confront him, kill him, and it's done.
Malak however is tied with your character alot more in K1. After doing all those things on Taris, he burns it the ground. Later on he reveals your secret, captures your potential romance, tortures her, turns her to the darkside & finally you battle it out on a climatic scale. You could almost develop a moral grudge against Malak while playing the game, but with Nihilus you confront him once, he can't feed on you because your a "wound in the force" and presents a smaller challenge than what was expected. The bout with Nihilus might as well should have been cut, theres nothing climatic about facing him and he feels like nothing more than fighting a simple Sith Assasain or Bounty Hunter that you may run across in the game.

Quote:
That counts for nothing. T3 was able to get onto the top of the Ebon Hawk in the prologue (probably by using a ladder like the Falcon had) so I don't see why the Exile couldn't. As for finding the Trayus Academy, that's the most logical thing to happen in the story, since two of the three largest antagonists of the game are there.
I never meant that part to bear any significance to my statement. From the looks of it, the Exile fell out of the Ebon Hawk after crash landing. T3 simply climbed out because it had to, and you actually go through the process of doing so.

Quote:
Unlike a button mashing game, RPGs can vary greatly depending on how you play them. I thought the Trayus Academy was too easy, and had to modify the stats of the enemies there to have an enjoyable experience. Since it's possible to get through that area easily, it can have just as much "fill" as a FPS.
Well this was on my first playthrough, but like I said there is a very large amount of enemies that you face on Malachor V that really doesn't deserve to be called a dialogue driven game, otherwise we would go straight to to the bout with Kreia & Sion without fighting all of those enemies.

Quote:
Why would you want to? There would be no purpose. Kreia wants to start executing her plans, so it would be incredibly stupid for the main characters to start chatting with each other.
I would more or less like to find out what happened to my entire crew during the crash landing. At the very least have some final dialoge sequence while traveling the Malachor V, otherwise the game is rather boring until you finally meet Kreia who after you defeat tells you the future.

Quote:
You also get to learn about the third game, a major part of the plot gets explained, and the Ebon Hawk flies off to fight an even greater enemy, whcih sets up the backdrop for a third game. I don't see what's wrong with that. You could also describe the ending of ESB in similarly unremarkable terms. Luke fights one of the primary villains, learns a little family history, and you see the Falcon flying into space.

Also, your views on TSL are somewhat confusing. You don't like the combat system, you dislike the plot, you dislike the ending, you don't like one of the main villains, then you start talking about how bad the game is... so why bother playing it? You obviously don't like it.
As said, the ending doesn't bother me. The events (more specifcally the stretch between the Ravanger & Trayus Academy) is what I disliked. Did I say anything about disliking the plot? or the game? What words gave you that impression. I simply gave my reasons that the end part of the game could have been polished or developed a bit better than it is.

Also to summarize my points of views, I have a unique perspective on the game itself. I enjoy the game, still have it on my hard drive and play it every now & then but always feel that the game could of used more polish and some changes here and there. I'm not willing to sit here and tell you the game is a perfect, polished and a 100% complete product. Nothing is for that matter, I'm just reflecting on some things I disliked about the game.


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Last edited by T.Nova; 07-03-2006 at 03:47 AM.
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Old 07-03-2006, 04:31 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T.Nova
What I meant to say was the fact that Darth Nihilus does nothing personal to your character. More or less he simply tries to manipulate a few events here and there. {snip}

The fact that hes "evil" is not a strong motivation to kill him. Plot wise, he plays a large role but bears little strenght in character while your playing the game.
Reasons for which he is a major villain, but not the main one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T.Nova
Well this was on my first playthrough,
Mine was like what I desribed, but without the mods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T.Nova
but like I said there is a very large amount of enemies that you face on Malachor V that really doesn't deserve to be called a dialogue driven game, otherwise we would go straight to to the bout with Kreia & Sion without fighting all of those enemies.
The fact that you spend time killing a large number of NPCs doesn't count for much. With most RPGs, the endgame focuses heavily on combat. Fighting all those enemies also helps show you the forces Sion and Traya have under their control, and prevents an awkward sequence of jumping from the crash on Malachor right to Sion. And the rest of TSL focuses heavily on dialogue, s o I think it can still be called a dialogue-driven game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T.Nova
I would more or less like to find out what happened to my entire crew during the crash landing. At the very least have some final dialoge sequence while traveling the Malachor V
There is some cut content which focuses on that, but I don't think the fact that it was cut detracts from the story too much. It's still obvious what your party members did, since the Ebon Hawk can't fly itself, and there's no logical reason for all your party members to die if you chose the Dark Side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T.Nova
As said, the ending doesn't bother me. The events (more specifcally the stretch between the Ravanger & Trayus Academy) is what I disliked. Did I say anything about disliking the plot? or the game? What words gave you that impression.
The sequence between the Ravager and the end of the game and Darth Nihilus are major parts of the plot, and the combat system is a large part of the game as well. You gave me the impression that you disliked those elements of the game, which had a very large role in it.


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Old 07-03-2006, 07:00 AM   #33
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Nice try... touched a nerve I see.
Not at all.

I just find denial irritating in others.



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Old 07-04-2006, 03:52 AM   #34
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Not at all.

I just find denial irritating in others.
Who's in denial? Looks like a simple 'get back at me' response because I struck a nerve and irritated you. This one is another.

Edit: DI and I are just playing around! We aint sidious... er' serious!


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"Liella d'Orien says, '"You're the fool, Devil. -- Witness the power of this fully ARMED and OPERATIONAL Titan!"'"
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Old 07-04-2006, 06:44 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by RedHawke
Obsidian delivered quite a finished product, even with the lack of Q&A Testing, despite some of the cleaning that needed to be done (Like Bioware was able to do for KotOR I), the game is quite playable, and most all of the quests able to be completed. A testement to their skills IMHO.[/list]
What's interesting is I downloaded the original trailer for KOTOR back on May 22, 2002. It says in the trailer (because I still have it. ) that it was going to be released for the XBox in the Fall of 2002 and on PC in the Spring of 2003. We all know that didn't come close. The project got delayed. KOTOR got released nearly a year after it was said to be originally released. That should tell you all something.


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Old 07-04-2006, 10:01 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
My problem with the ending is the loose ends with the party members. What happened between Go-To and T3? How did Mira escape Malachor? How did a badly damaged Ebon Hawk manage to appear right on time to pick up the Exile? I can use my imagination like anyone else, but I wanted to experience those events, not supply the story from my imagination after the game was done. That is, after all, why we play RPG's instead of writing novels.
If I am right, you are talking about how KotOR I had a cutscene ending, and KotOR II had a dialouge ending. I just finished my 100th playthrough of another RPG (Vampire the Masqurade: Bloodlines), and the ending was also a cutscene. Final Fantasy also had cutscenes for the end. KotOR II was the first PC RPG that I have played that did not have a cutscene ending. (I am tired, so I hope that made scense.)

Should cutscenes/animations have been used to explain certain engame storyarchs in KotOR II? The only reason why I say 'Yes' is because the ending was confussing for several people. Since people are accustomed to how KotOR used animations for the ending, they should have used the same technique. When I hit the end of KotOR II, I wanted to see animations as well.

During my first play through of KotOR II, I became confussed as to why you were still speaking to Kreia. I couldn't think of a reason why she should have still been alive for a prolonged period of time. I thought it would have been more interesting if they animated the ending. What would have been even more effective and clear is if they used by a narrative and animation ending. Kreia's voice could narrate the fate of your companions. As Kreia is speaking through the Force to the PC, animations could have been shown of certain escapes, deaths, etc... The game could have still been a cliff-hanger, but it could have been done in a similar technique as KotOR I. I think the animations would have made things clear. As I said earlier, above, the developers should have stuck to certain consistant game executions.

Is it horrible to use soley dialouge for endings? I don't think it is. Only in this specific circumstance. People would have understood that there was an ending to the game, but it was a cliff-hanger. Since they used dialouge, I think they confussed a lot of people.

Several years ago, when I played table-top RPGs, I was learning how to be GM from three seperate people. A few of the common rules, I personally formed, that an ending needs to follow are:
1. The PCs have to have a sense of accomplishment.
2. The end of a quest needs to be properly rewarded.
I don't know if these type of table-top rules work here.

Regardless about how the story was concluded (cliff-hanger or not.), I think that an animated ending would have been rewarding. When I read novels, I form the images from words. When I play console/platform RPGs, I look for an animated ending. I play platform RPGs and First Person Shooters for the action, animations, and the sense of accomplishment.

(If anything seems weird about my writting, I haven't fallen asleep yet. )
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Old 07-04-2006, 11:02 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by MacLeodCorp
Should cutscenes/animations have been used to explain certain engame storyarchs in KotOR II? The only reason why I say 'Yes' is because the ending was confussing for several people. Since people are accustomed to how KotOR used animations for the ending, they should have used the same technique. When I hit the end of KotOR II, I wanted to see animations as well.
It's fine that you want one, but it is a bit silly for people to say they were surprised at the end, IMO. The dialog with Kriea was clearly the final portion of the game, as she goes on to explain the main plot as well as the fate of most of the characters. I mean, how could people not know it was the end?

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Old 07-04-2006, 12:24 PM   #38
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It's fine that you want one, but it is a bit silly for people to say they were surprised at the end, IMO. The dialog with Kriea was clearly the final portion of the game, as she goes on to explain the main plot as well as the fate of most of the characters. I mean, how could people not know it was the end?
I can see what you are saying. How can people not know that Kreia was the endgame. From how I saw it the first time around, I was looking for an animated conclusion. Since I thought Kreia's death was only the beginning of how the end would play out, I didn't pay too much attention to what she was saying. At the end of KotOR I, you killed off Malek to save the day. He was the last person you killed, but an animatic cutscene fired off. Within the last few moments of the game, there was an epic battle between the Sith and Republic. After that cutscene, there was a final scene of Revan with Bastila, or Revan with all the NPCs. I was looking for the same technique to occur.

I didn't think she had anything important to say. I thought it was a done deal, so I skipped her offer of prophesy/revelation. I was hoping it would skip to another animatic, which may show you catching up with your friends, and then you take off. The last NPCs you see were Go-To, Bou-Dur's Droid, and Mira.
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Old 07-04-2006, 03:19 PM   #39
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Well, they way the do it could have been better.

Like:

1) giving Kreia actually a Dying model, let her sit on the floor or something.
2) at least a pause scene of Exile walking away slowly.
3) some narrator dialogue, be it important or not.

If you are going to pull the ESB theory on me, at least people are looking out the window for an end-movie shot.

Its not even time constrain anymore when it comes to that. It just... can be done better.

But yeah I can give you that O is not doint THAT bad of a job, despire some obvious incompleteness. No I am not talking about hidden content not fixed, but things like HK Factory for example, which is obviously hinted that something is going to happen, but did not. Then again, maybe LEV put their big stinky food on it, to stop possable things like HK47 being killed off or something. But that we will never know.
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Old 07-04-2006, 07:11 PM   #40
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We should not even have known about the 'cut' content. This is one of those editing things that is done behind the scenes.

From the game player's perspective, we should only see and know about what we played. Anything else is extra.

I read this in the forums somewhere, someone said, "We will never know what this game was ment to be." <--- I don't believe this is a true statement. Players got a completed version of TSL, but pieces just needed to be cleaned up properly. From where I stand, KotOR II is very close to what the game was ment to be.

The mention of the HK Factory was a mistake. Players should not have know that it was scrapped until years latter in a magazine article of sorts.

What is driving people nuts is that the 'cut' content was left in the game files. Game players are not suppose to know what is in those files. However, modding tools openned up a new avenue, which the gamer can diesect game files. A game is not produced in a manner, which the developers take into account what modders do. Otherwords, they don't sit around and say, "Hey, lets make sure there are no extra files, so game players don't find anything."

In a ironic twist, modding tools and our curiosity is what found the 'cut' content. In a way, our curiosity has made contriversy over something that gammers should not know about. Players should be nieve about the files that were left behind. In an ironic twist, the modder's curiosity became our worse enemy.

After noticing there were errors in dialouge, modders openned up Pandora's box. Modders found the 'cut' content, and fueled the incomplete contriversy of KotOR II's story.

1. Obsidian's bad clean up job.
2. The modding tools & our curiosity.

This is one of those moments where 'Nieveness' is bliss.

--------------------------------

On a similar note: What if the developers had plans on using the 'cut' content in KotOR III? What if they said, "Oky, we have all these files, but we didn't have the time. Lets use them to get started on a third installment."

Ironically, they could change the original story for the 'cut' content, and use them in a different manner or purpose. HK-Factory could end up on another planet than Telos. Or, the M4 (The Droid Planet) could be redesigned and retooled into a more interesting industrial concept.

Since the nature of 'cut' content means 'to be removed', the whole concept of these elements could be retooled into something more interesting latter on. Science Fiction is an interesting genera. Anything can happen to those files, and they could be turned into something else that we didn't expect. Their original design could be scrapped for something much cooler.

We may never know their future plans for the HK-Factory or Droid Planet until KotOR III. The sky is the limit.

--------------------------------

On restoring the 'cut' content. It will be fun to see what modders come up with. However, this is only their interpretation of what the content's purpose is. After reading up on Obsidian's notes, they will attampt to add more content to TSL. Since the game is complete, they are not restoring anything. They are only pulling unfinished and edited pieces together. I would not take a modder's work as 100% cannon, for the deleted pieces were shot out a cannon.

The great thing about working in production is that what ever you edit can be retooled and designed for something else. What ever the original content's purpose was, they can allways be altered into another project.

You never know. The HK-Factory could end up being on another planet, but in the unknown regions. The Droid planet could end up being exotic, and underneath the surface it is artificial. In Science-Fiction, the sky is the limit.

Last edited by MacLeodCorp; 07-04-2006 at 07:58 PM.
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