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Old 08-19-2006, 07:37 PM   #41
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My vote for the Emperor, You don't live that long unless you are strong and smart, and by the way Palpy knew that Padme is going to die so if he knew that he could know about the outcome of his battle with Mace, and he could predict that Vader will be there to aid him, and officially become his apprentice!


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Old 08-19-2006, 10:34 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Terran I
My vote for the Emperor, You don't live that long unless you are strong and smart, and by the way Palpy knew that Padme is going to die so if he knew that he could know about the outcome of his battle with Mace, and he could predict that Vader will be there to aid him, and officially become his apprentice!
Did you read the thread? If you did, you'd know that we've already established that the Emperor DID lose the fight to Mace and what you posted is inaccurate. Please read the thread first.
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Old 08-20-2006, 04:57 AM   #43
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I read it the first time, I say what I think, I watch the movie and understand it my way. I don't watch a film and than ask the director or the writers what they wanted to say, if that was not clearly explained than it is their problem not mine. Don't get mad just because I say what I think even if it is wrong. Palpy knew that Jedi are coming to get so he was ready to fight, and I think that he planed everything in that battle.


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Old 08-20-2006, 05:27 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Terran I
I read it the first time, I say what I think, I watch the movie and understand it my way. I don't watch a film and than ask the director or the writers what they wanted to say, if that was not clearly explained than it is their problem not mine. Don't get mad just because I say what I think even if it is wrong. Palpy knew that Jedi are coming to get so he was ready to fight, and I think that he planed everything in that battle.
So you're saying that you think that's how the scene SHOULD have been.

But it wasn't. I get what you're saying; that's what I thought too when I saw the movie, but George makes the movies, and that's how it is...

I wish Han would have shot first... but too bad for me, that's not how it is. Oh well.
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Old 08-20-2006, 10:33 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
So you're saying that you think that's how the scene SHOULD have been.

But it wasn't. I get what you're saying; that's what I thought too when I saw the movie, but George makes the movies, and that's how it is...

I wish Han would have shot first... but too bad for me, that's not how it is. Oh well.
Well, at least now Han didn't shoot second...
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Old 08-20-2006, 11:01 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Terran I
I think that he planed everything in that battle.
Precisely. But don't you think that counting on Anakin to save his butt is a bit risky? Knowing that he does plan everything, do you think he would really rely on such an uncertainty to achieve his goal? He would *never* risk his life, his dreams of power and the future of the sith only to have Anakin on his side. Palpy only cares about himself; Anakin is a mere tool for him to use in order to achieve the power he wants.

Palpy planed everything. The goal of this plan is to become Emperor and eradicate the Jedi. Ultimately, it wasn't to turn Anakin.


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Old 08-22-2006, 09:32 AM   #47
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Then why did he use the force to give birth to Anakin?


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Old 08-22-2006, 10:29 AM   #48
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Then why did he use the force to give birth to Anakin?
He didn't <_<


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Old 08-22-2006, 11:30 AM   #49
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The ROTS novel says he did... doesn't it?

Oh, and if you're replying to the person right above you, there's no reason to quote.


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Old 08-22-2006, 12:26 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Darth54
Precisely. But don't you think that counting on Anakin to save his butt is a bit risky? Knowing that he does plan everything, do you think he would really rely on such an uncertainty to achieve his goal? He would *never* risk his life, his dreams of power and the future of the sith only to have Anakin on his side. Palpy only cares about himself; Anakin is a mere tool for him to use in order to achieve the power he wants.

Palpy planed everything. The goal of this plan is to become Emperor and eradicate the Jedi. Ultimately, it wasn't to turn Anakin.
Well, for one, Palpy always THINKS he had control of everything, and it wouldn't be a surprice that sometimes things did slip out of his control. I am pretty sure he did not plan for Vader to give him a free trip down the DeathStar core. So underestimating Mace won't be improbable.

ALSO, where did ROTS novel say that Anakin is Palpy's "son" ??

If there is any indication of that, I would really love to see a quote or two for the line in the novel. :3

Well I suppose Palpy's master may have such ability (still waiting for novel) and the more infinite SWT mention a resurrected Maul. But mind you that is definitely an infinite episode, w/o the time tag of a canon label, unlike the last few SWTs.
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Old 08-22-2006, 01:23 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by PoiuyWired
Well, for one, Palpy always THINKS he had control of everything, and it wouldn't be a surprice that sometimes things did slip out of his control. I am pretty sure he did not plan for Vader to give him a free trip down the DeathStar core. So underestimating Mace won't be improbable.
True. Just another proof that Mace did win. **** happens, as they say.

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ALSO, where did ROTS novel say that Anakin is Palpy's "son" ??

If there is any indication of that, I would really love to see a quote or two for the line in the novel. :3
That's pure fan rumour. I heard it some time ago, but it's nothing official. I don't remember reading a reference to this in the RotS novel either (but then, it's been a long time since I read that). If there's a hint in the novel, it's probably the author speculating on unofficial material. Anakin is not Palpatine's "son", creation, or anything else.

EDIT: the language filter amazes me.


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Old 08-22-2006, 01:28 PM   #52
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The ROTS novel says he did... doesn't it?
No.

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Old 08-22-2006, 01:50 PM   #53
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Alright, it is my beleif that Mace Windu defeated Sidious fair and square, some say that The Emperor let him win, my question is to what point and purpose would Sidious let Mace win? You cant realy trust Ani to be loyal to you ( although he was ). Another beleif I have is about Yoda being greatly weakend by the Jedi Purge, and Mace hadnt been. What do you all think?
Sidious needed Anakin. Without Anakin, he'd have to face all the surviving jedi alone. Killing Mace Windu would've convinced Anakin, that palpetine was evil.
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Old 08-22-2006, 01:54 PM   #54
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At the very least you have to admit that Sidious didn't run out of power, and could've kept the lightning going.
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Old 08-22-2006, 01:56 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by kotorfan84
Sidious needed Anakin. Without Anakin, he'd have to face all the surviving jedi alone.
No he didn't. Who killed most of the Jedi: Anakin or thousands of clones?


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Old 08-22-2006, 02:05 PM   #56
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No he didn't. Who killed most of the Jedi: Anakin or thousands of clones?
okay, let's imagine for a second Sidious kills Mace and Anakin never shows up. Sidious then exacutes order 66, and ofcourse yodi and obi wan survive, and Anakin goes into hiding. Do you really think Sidious has a snow ball's chance in hell against all three, especially if the wait until Anakin becomes more powereful?
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Old 08-22-2006, 02:14 PM   #57
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Wow... you know, that's a great point, I never thought of it that way... a very great Jedi, perhaps the best of them all, along with the chosen one, and another Jedi Master against Palpatine...

EDIT: But then again, Anakin MAY have been eliminated in order 66 if he didn't know about it beforehand... but still, Yoda and Obi-Wan against Palpatine alone...


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Old 08-22-2006, 03:33 PM   #58
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At the very least you have to admit that Sidious didn't run out of power, and could've kept the lightning going.
I believe that you're right on that account. IIRC, Sidious WAS faking when he pretended to be weak.
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Old 08-22-2006, 07:10 PM   #59
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More like, if Palpy would keep the lightning on, assuming that is his only tactic possable, would he be able to defeat Mace if not for Ani's interference?

Remember, time seems to be not on Palpy's side. If anakin is, say, late due to anything from bad traffic, to Padme wanting a longer goodbye kiss to ... then there is no promise that Palpy would walk out as the winner.

Point being, Palpy took a gamble that he think he has an upperhand, and he placed his bet right. But what is in his hand is just a pure sabacc... there is still no telling if a Fool's array show up.
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Old 08-22-2006, 07:17 PM   #60
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The duel didn't go according to plan for Palpatine, I think he knew the four Jedi were coming but thought that he would dispatch them all quickly and easily. I believe Anakin showing up when he did was luck for Palpatine and he used his vulnerable position to influence Anakin for the final time.



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Old 08-24-2006, 07:07 PM   #61
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He lost the duel but sword fighting was never his bag anyway. He's a minipulator, and exploited it as soon as he could. I didn't think he planned everything when I saw it.
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Old 08-30-2006, 02:50 PM   #62
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So if Mace was able to defeat Sidious that easily, that must mean he's strongerthan Yoda. Mace's fight was shorter, and he had Sidious on the ground w/o his lightsaber.
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Old 08-30-2006, 07:02 PM   #63
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I choose the believe that Mace won square and fair, he's an awsome lightsaber dualist, and I further think that Anakin was still ten years away from even coming close to beating Mace. As far as Sidious, who knows how he would have manipulated the situation if he would have beaten Mace. We all know he's good at turning any situation to his benefit. I think he knew all along no matter what happened between him and and other Jedi, Anakin would turn to the dark side becuase he was so scared of losing Padme', and no Jedi could save her in his mind. I also think Ol' Palpy really played it off when Anakin got there as Mace was holding him at saber point. Shooting out lighting and then whining about growing weak and couldn't hold it any longer, well, anyone with a mind says to "stop shooting lighting" Sidious and you won't be so weak.

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So if Mace was able to defeat Sidious that easily, that must mean he's strongerthan Yoda. Mace's fight was shorter, and he had Sidious on the ground w/o his lightsaber.
I think that Sidious was stronger than Mace in the use of the Force, but Mace was way stronger than Sidious with the Lightsaber. Sidious and Yoda are almost equals with the use of the force, and Yoda will entertain the idea of have a "force fight". Mace would not, he barraged Sidious with strike after strike preventing Sidious from calling upon his Force tricks, thereby effectivly putting him on the ground. In the fight with Yoda, Sidious avoided as much Lightsaber play as possible, and at his first chance, he got away from it and utilized the a full "force fight".

Final thoughts*
1. Anakin was well on the road to being a Sith no matter the outcome of the office fight.
2. Mace Windu is a far better laserswordsman than Sidious. Yoda was even better than Sidious, which is why Sidious wouldn't let Yoda get close to him in the Senate Hall.
3. Sidious could sell a microwave to a group of Sand People, he would made anything turn to his favor, no matter the outcome.
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Old 09-01-2006, 09:57 AM   #64
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I choose the believe that Mace won square and fair, he's an awsome lightsaber dualist, and I further think that Anakin was still ten years away from even coming close to beating Mace.
Wow, ten years is a long time, maybe you should look at how much stronger Anakin got between episode 2 and 3. I do agree that Mace was on a different level than Anakin, but ten years?

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As far as Sidious, who knows how he would have manipulated the situation if he would have beaten Mace. We all know he's good at turning any situation to his benefit. I think he knew all along no matter what happened between him and and other Jedi, Anakin would turn to the dark side becuase he was so scared of losing Padme', and no Jedi could save her in his mind. I also think Ol' Palpy really played it off when Anakin got there as Mace was holding him at saber point.
I think Sidious calculated everything, and knew how it was going to go down. He needed Yoda and Mace to be seperated, because had they shown up, he would've been dead, so knowing Yoda had the best relationship with the wookies, he attacked them, knowing Yoda would leave. I think he also knew that although Anakin was scared to lose Padame, he wasn't far along yet to betray Obi Wan like he did Mace, and leaked the location of Grievious believing they would never send Anakin, especially if Palpatine recomended it, and have little choice but to send Obi Wan.

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Shooting out lighting and then whining about growing weak and couldn't hold it any longer, well, anyone with a mind says to "stop shooting lighting" Sidious and you won't be so weak.
Why would he stop shooting lightning if Mace was going to kill him. I know Mace's original intent was to arrest palpatine, but once he started shooting lightning, he had to continue.

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Originally Posted by ferris209
I think that Sidious was stronger than Mace in the use of the Force, but Mace was way stronger than Sidious with the Lightsaber. Sidious and Yoda are almost equals with the use of the force, and Yoda will entertain the idea of have a "force fight". Mace would not, he barraged Sidious with strike after strike preventing Sidious from calling upon his Force tricks, thereby effectivly putting him on the ground. In the fight with Yoda, Sidious avoided as much Lightsaber play as possible, and at his first chance, he got away from it and utilized the a full "force fight".
Sidious had ample opportunity to unleash some force lightning. You really don't need to much space, just look at the distance between Mace and Sidious when he unleashed it, and Sidious and Yoda, the last time Sidious unleashes it.
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Old 09-12-2006, 10:01 PM   #65
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That isnt what he is say he is saying that sidious didnt have time to unleash any force powers becasue mace windu was diverting all of sidiouses focus on to him.


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Old 09-13-2006, 11:47 AM   #66
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I think it's been confirmed (though the scene was tweaked and altered up to the last minute) that Mace indeed DID beat Sideous fair and square in the fight. The Sith Lord may be powerful, but he's also arrogant and makes all sorts of mistakes (you see this in all the movies he's in actually, he's not some infallible evil genius).

The only part where Sideous was "faking" according to Lucas, is when he's "begging for his life" and saying he's "too weak" in front of Anakin. Had Anakin not been there, I'm sure the "oppression of the Sith" would have been ended right then and there.

Perhaps Mace would have still had some confrontation with Anakin, perhaps not (perhaps Sideous had some kind of "influence" or hold on him that would have been broken upon his death). Perhaps Mace would have gone into exile, or sent Anakin to prison (or forgiven him), who knows?

But I don't buy this that Sideous was faking the entire time and it was that perfectly orchestrated. He simply took advantage of the situation as it was to try to pull it off in his favor.

And as for Yoda being all powerful, again, we need not assume that. Dooku is beaten by Anakin, Yoda runs away from him. Does this mean Anakin is stronger than Yoda? Obi-Wan beats Anakin, does this mean Obi-Wan is stronger than Yoda AND Anakin? (but then Anakin later beats Obi-Wan, so...?) You can go on forever like this. No fighter is all powerful and it's not a strict hierarchy. They all have different strengths and weaknesses, situational benefits/disadvantages, and everyone has a bad day, and their skills vary over time. And factor the force in, and it's not always a given who would win.


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Old 09-13-2006, 11:56 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nintendork
The ROTS novel says he did... doesn't it?

Oh, and if you're replying to the person right above you, there's no reason to quote.
Well the novel implies that if anyone could do it ("use the force to influence the midichlorians to create life"), Darth Plageuis could have. Not that Palpatine created Anakin.

Palpatine admits he never actually learned this power (or at least the power to prevent death, no idea about the power to create life... of course he could be lying AGAIN to Anakin, for all we know there never was a "Darth Plagueis the Wise" ... though the Visual Dictionary claims it as if it's a fact that he existed, and was the master of Darth Sideous).


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Old 09-14-2006, 07:04 AM   #68
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And as for Yoda being all powerful, again, we need not assume that. Dooku is beaten by Anakin, Yoda runs away from him. Does this mean Anakin is stronger than Yoda? Obi-Wan beats Anakin, does this mean Obi-Wan is stronger than Yoda AND Anakin? (but then Anakin later beats Obi-Wan, so...?) You can go on forever like this. No fighter is all powerful and it's not a strict hierarchy. They all have different strengths and weaknesses, situational benefits/disadvantages, and everyone has a bad day, and their skills vary over time. And factor the force in, and it's not always a given who would win.
Yoda doesn't run away from Dooku - Dooku runs away from Yoda!
And Anakin defeated Obi-Wan having 20 more years of training as a Sith Lord (and a calmer head).
Still, I partially agree with you - although I do believe there is a relatively strict hierarchy in the long run, a certain fight can always be influenced by the situation, the sorroundings, luck (the Force ) etc. - almost every fight Obi-Wan participates in shows that .
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Old 09-14-2006, 08:01 AM   #69
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The best example would probably be Luke... less than four years of "training" (apparently he trained for a few days at most with Ben and a few weeks at most with Yoda, though the movies makes it seem like only hours in either case since they never sleep or shave, etc) and he's able to beat Vader.

(and I don't buy this "being younger means you win easier" notion because look at how handily Dooku could beat up those young punks).


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Old 09-15-2006, 05:12 PM   #70
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Darth Sidious had to win if he didn't then episode 4 5 and 6 wouldn't make any sense
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Old 09-15-2006, 05:43 PM   #71
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Darth Sidious had to win if he didn't then episode 4 5 and 6 wouldn't make any sense
Of course he survive! But if the fight happen for real Mace Windu would have kick Darth Sidious and Anakin ass.
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Old 09-15-2006, 05:59 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Kurgan
The best example would probably be Luke... less than four years of "training" (apparently he trained for a few days at most with Ben and a few weeks at most with Yoda, though the movies makes it seem like only hours in either case since they never sleep or shave, etc) and he's able to beat Vader.

(and I don't buy this "being younger means you win easier" notion because look at how handily Dooku could beat up those young punks).
Last I checked, Luke never won, but Vader sacrificed himself to kill the Emporer.

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Of course he survive! But if the fight happen for real Mace Windu would have kick Darth Sidious and Anakin ass.
...Wha?


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Old 09-15-2006, 05:59 PM   #73
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okay, let's imagine for a second Sidious kills Mace and Anakin never shows up. Sidious then exacutes order 66, and ofcourse yodi and obi wan survive, and Anakin goes into hiding. Do you really think Sidious has a snow ball's chance in hell against all three, especially if the wait until Anakin becomes more powereful?
Hell No!

Mace could handle Sidious his self, he would'nt need any help from Obi Wan or Yoda.
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Old 09-15-2006, 06:47 PM   #74
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So many what-ifs. What if one of the "meatshield" Jedis in the incident (say, Kit Fisto) having warn cortosis plates/armor underneath? The fight can be over right then and there.

Its not as improbable as you might think. They know they are dealing with a Sith, and They know about Cortosis, and Vos regularly uses it as a vambrace.

Point, its the will of the force, that things happened at the right/wrong time at the right/wrong place.
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Old 09-16-2006, 02:34 AM   #75
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They should have just fired upon his office with their Jedi fighters.


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Old 09-17-2006, 04:52 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nintendork
Last I checked, Luke never won, but Vader sacrificed himself to kill the Emporer.

...Wha?
Luke fought a saber battle with Vader, and beat him, once he got angry. That's what I was referring to. I don't count it a "victory" only if one opponent was killed by the other.

Dooku beat Obi-Wan, twice.
Dooku beat Anakin.
Dooku tied with Yoda (in early drafts he actually lost).
Anakin beat Dooku.
Palpatine beat Yoda.
Palpatine beat Saesi Tiin, Agen Kolar and Kit Fisto.
Palpatine beat Mace Windu (ultimately, though he lost the saber duel, see the example of Maul vs. Obi-Wan, but this is even less so because neither of them even had a lightsaber at the end).
Obi-Wan beat Vader/Anakin.
Vader/Anakin beat Obi-Wan (though he let himself be killed)
Vader/Anakin beat various no-name Jedi at the temple (shown in holos).
Vader/Anakin beat Luke (though you could argue this one, since they really have two fights in ESB, the first one Luke wins, the second one Vader wins, if you see them as one long fight then Vader clearly wins)
Luke beat Vader/Anakin.
Obi-Wan beat Grievous (a non-force user)
Darth Maul tied with Qui Gon Jinn (their first fight, Jinn ran away).
Darth Maul beat Qui Gon Jinn.
Darth Maul beat Obi-Wan (even though he was killed by him later, the duel was effectively over, you could argue this one)


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Old 09-17-2006, 05:34 PM   #77
Kurgan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YertyL
Yoda doesn't run away from Dooku - Dooku runs away from Yoda!
Whoops, I mistyped that. Of course you're right. He wasn't even losing! His original plan was to run away, but his ego got the better of him, so he stayed to fight the Jedi to show how powerful he was (and finally realized that he couldn't beat Yoda, and they might eventually wear him out and capture him, notice how the troops arrived just seconds after he fled).


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Old 09-18-2006, 03:43 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Palpatine beat Mace Windu (ultimately, though he lost the saber duel, see the example of Maul vs. Obi-Wan, but this is even less so because neither of them even had a lightsaber at the end).
Hey, Palpatine beat Mace after Anakin surprised him and cut his hand off - I'd hardly call that a fair fight. I mean, killing someone is not quite beating someone, and in the fair fight Mace managed to disarm Palpatine and make him whimper like an injured puppy. Would you say that Palpatine "beat" Plagueis (is it spelled that way ...?) by killing him in his sleep?
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Old 09-18-2006, 07:41 AM   #79
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Palpatine could've easily killed Mace though, he was just convincing Anakin to help him to more easily turn him to the dark side.


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Old 09-18-2006, 03:26 PM   #80
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Without Ani's help he could try, but the result would probably be quite fatal to him, not that he would have a choice.

It is said that Mace it the greatest combatant of the time, especially when he wears his blingblings.
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