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Old 09-01-2006, 11:14 PM   #41
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Example for those who need a simple explination:
If you notice below my posts, I usually go back and edit my statements. Why? Because I look over my work for accidental errors (spelling and grammar). Obsidian made the same errors. Instead of spelling and grammar, they accidentally removed or left behind small tidbits.

The 'cut content' is not important, and their removal could be for countless of reasons.

Emperor Devon - I hear you man. I will probally play the mods that come out of both camps, but I am doing it for a curiosity factor. I think they will add some fun, but they will have very little bearing on the story being told. TSL Restoration teams is adding some of the 'accidentaly' omitted information, but their HK Factory is a nonessentail addition to the story. M4-78 has to be made practically from scratch, and you people are going to be using an artistic liscense. I look forward to everyone's 'creativity'.

Edit:: Added::
Restoring the 'cut content' doesn't impress me, for it was omited for any number of reasons.

Fixing the errors ('accidental' edits) should have been fixed by Obsidian. It is similar to making spelling and grammar edits for an advertisement. It costs someone money.



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Last edited by MacLeodGR; 09-01-2006 at 11:35 PM.
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Old 09-01-2006, 11:35 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
I think they will add some fun, but they will have very little bearing on the story being told.
That's pretty much it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
M4-78 has to be made practically from scratch, and you people are going to be using an artistic liscense. I look forward to everyone's 'creativity'.
There actually was a half-finished rought draft of the story in the dialogue.tlk file, but it obviously had to be added on to. There will be new characters, directions the plot goes, quests, etc. that obviously weren't mentioned there and intended by Obsidian.


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Old 09-01-2006, 11:43 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
There actually was a half-finished rought draft of the story in the dialogue.tlk file, but it obviously had to be added on to. There will be new characters, directions the plot goes, quests, etc. that obviously weren't mentioned there and intended by Obsidian.
That is what I mean. You people are going to use a creative liscense to make filler. Otherwords, when I download the M4-78 mod, I get things based upon your group's creative interest. You may follow some of the 'cut content', but you are creating stuff that Obsidian didn't come up with. You people are creating stuff, so that my visit to the planet doesn't soley come off of the developer's omitted storyboard. You people are just using the 'cut content' to stitch it to the game, so your mod will blend into the gameplay. I can apprechiate what you are doing.

Besides that, M4-78 is 'not essential' to the overall story of TSL, and the game is a completed product. All it is suffering from is 'accidental edits', which dervive from unintentional omittions and left behind pieces.



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Old 09-02-2006, 07:29 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
Emperor Devon, Prime, and Redhawke have said all that I believe is true. There are countless of reasons why the 'cut content' would be removed. If there are any issues, I blame it on bad editing. I can see small tiny pieces that were accidently omited, but the majority of the 'cut content' was omited for other reasons. I don't believe time restraints was the sole reason, which M4-78 and the HK-Factory were omitted. One could make the argument that they were removed because they were not necessary. There are too many reasons.
That sounds like bad logic to me. You say there are many reasons, but still conclude that M4-78 and the HK-factory were both removed for the same reason. To me that seems doubtful. M4-78 was probably removed because the deadline was loomed on the horizon, and it didn't add anything significant to the plot. The same does not seem to be the case for the HK factory, which is the climax to the HK-50 units that have been hunting the Exile for about half the game and plotwise sets the stage for the G0-T0 vs. Remote vs. HK-47 showdown on Malachor V. If that scene is not significant, then why does the New Essential Guide to Droids go into details to put G0-T0's demise back in canon? No, it seems obvious to me that the HK factory was cut only due to time constraints, and that the plot was hurt as a consequence, because the HK-47 vs. G0-T0 confrontation then because implausible, because an essential part of the plot was now missing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
What drove people to the 'cut content' conspiracy is because modders found the files. If there were no such thing as modders, the average gammer would not know of their existance.
You don't need to be a modder to play the soundfiles or read through the dialog.tlk file. That's what people did. It did not come from modders restoring bits to the game that would otherwise have been impossible to find. Heck, even I discovered stuff nobody had mentioned before (to my knowledge) by simply listening to the soundfiles. And concluding that stuff was omitted due to a timeline does constitute a "conspiracy".

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
Remember, Obsidian wasn't going to say anything.
That depends. Does leaving all that cut stuff in the files for the fans to find count as not saying anything? I actually do think of that as Obsidian's way to quietly protest the treatment they received and make the fans aware of what was going on. Besides, it's not as if developers from Obsidian, when criticized for the cut nature of the game, did not respond with comments along the lines of "a situation beyond our control", which I think is even a direct quote, though I don't have the exact source now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
Until a curiosity driven person looked into the files, they didn't have a reason to say anything. People are just upset because they want more game play, and they are mad at how TSL was edited badly.
No, they want a coherent and consistent plot. You have that in TSL until about 80% through, where the plot takes huge turn to the left and leaves the player going "WTF?!?"

If you were right that players just want more game play, then we would have heard the same for KotOR1, which some people claim had even more content cut from it. But it didn't happen, and that tells us something. I'd like to see M4-78 and the genoharadan plot on Nar Shaddaa, but I'm okay with it being cut because it doesn't add anything significant or essential to the plot. I cannot say the same for the HK factory or the resolution of the Exile's companions, who just go - poof! - on Malachor V.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
1. (LS) Where is the Exile going?
2. (DS) Did the Exile survive Malacore?
3. What happened to Revan?
4. What happened to the Exile's companions, who suddenly vanished into thin air?
5. Who won the G0-T0 vs. Remote showdown?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
To be honest, I have to also agree with another statement. I think the gammer should have been forced to hear about your companions' futures. If we were forced to hear about our friends, I think people will understand that TSL was a completed game.
No, because that would just even more beg the question on what has happened to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
It is very sad that people believe TSL was an incomplete game. There is a difference between 'incomplete' and 'accidental edits'.
And it's also sad that people refuse to see that essential parts of the plot was cut due to the way the game was edited, leaving a story with gaping plotholes and some very confused players.


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Last edited by Jediphile; 09-02-2006 at 03:40 PM.
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Old 09-02-2006, 01:16 PM   #45
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^^^^
I think you need to read and comprehend everyone's posts carefully.

"You say there are many reasons, but still conclude that M4-78 and the HK-factory were both removed for the same reason."
Interesting how you drew a false conculsion. I was clearly speculating, and anyone could have seen what I was driving towards. If you read the paragraph again, maybe you will consider all the sentences as a whole concept.

"4. What happened to the Exile's companions, who suddenly vanished into thin air?
5. Who won the G0-T0 vs. Remote showdown?"

Keep on reading all of my posts, and you will find your answer. I am not going to repeat myself. Hint: Look for the 'accidental edits', and my statements about them.

"No, because that would just even more beg the question on what has happened to them."
Are we playing the same game? TSL right? Kreia was very clear about the fate of your companions. Read and listen to her dialouge again. If we are forced to hear her out, people would realize on how very complete the game was.

All that TSL was suffering from is by bad editting. Obsidian accidentlly didn't tie things up right. They left things that should have been deleted in, and they accidentlly removed things that they shouldn't have.

I am going to make a guess. 5% of the stuff we believe was 'cut content' were actially 'accidental edits'. The other 95% of the content, HK Fatory and M4-78, were not important for the story to be completed.



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Old 09-02-2006, 03:33 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
^^^^
I think you need to read and comprehend everyone's posts carefully.
That's odd given that I very specifically quoted you and then responded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
"You say there are many reasons, but still conclude that M4-78 and the HK-factory were both removed for the same reason."
Interesting how you drew a false conculsion. I was clearly speculating, and anyone could have seen what I was driving towards. If you read the paragraph again, maybe you will consider all the sentences as a whole concept.
Well, let's see - what you actually said was this:
Quote:
Emperor Devon, Prime, and Redhawke have said all that I believe is true. There are countless of reasons why the 'cut content' would be removed. If there are any issues, I blame it on bad editing. I can see small tiny pieces that were accidently omited, but the majority of the 'cut content' was omited for other reasons. I don't believe time restraints was the sole reason, which M4-78 and the HK-Factory were omitted. One could make the argument that they were removed because they were not necessary. There are too many reasons.
Well, seems pretty clear that you throw M4-78 and the HK factory into the same category here, namely that they were removed because they were not necessary (which I don't agree with)...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
"4. What happened to the Exile's companions, who suddenly vanished into thin air?
5. Who won the G0-T0 vs. Remote showdown?"

Keep on reading all of my posts, and you will find your answer. I am not going to repeat myself. Hint: Look for the 'accidental edits', and my statements about them.
Yet you still insist that the removal of the Exile's companions from the end of TSL does not present a problem. I disagree with that, even in spite of Kreia's predictions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
"No, because that would just even more beg the question on what has happened to them."
Are we playing the same game? TSL right? Kreia was very clear about the fate of your companions. Read and listen to her dialouge again. If we are forced to hear her out, people would realize on how very complete the game was.
No, because those predictions only serve to leave me as a player with a big, yet rather simple question: "Ok, so my companions are not dead, but then where are they?" There is no answer to that question, which is fairly bad storytelling. Or put differently, how would you feel if the last we ever see of Luke in RotJ is him pulling Vader toward a ship, the death star then explodes, then Han tells Leia that he's sure Luke wasn't there when it blew, and Leia just answers that he wasn't, and then that's it - no Luke flying out of the Death Star, no burning of Vader's armor, no Luke returning to the victory celebration, just Luke trying to get out, Death Star exploding, then Leia saying he didn't die...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
All that TSL was suffering from is by bad editting. Obsidian accidentlly didn't tie things up right. They left things that should have been deleted in, and they accidentlly removed things that they shouldn't have.
But that's just it - they didn't remove it. It's all still there. We know this, because we can read it in the dialog.tlk file and hear it in the soundfiles. So why is that? Why can't we play it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
I am going to make a guess. 5% of the stuff we believe was 'cut content' were actially 'accidental edits'. The other 95% of the content, HK Fatory and M4-78, were not important for the story to be completed.
Well, you have a right to your opinion, but for every time you or someone else is going to say the HK factory is not essential to the game, I will insist on claiming that it is, and that its absense leaves the plot cut and incomplete because G0-T0 cannot be stopped in the LS ending unless HK-47 and the HK-51s are there to stop him, and they won't be there, if the HK factory is cut. It's missing plot, and HK-47 killing G0-T0 was cut for that reason, even though this chain of events was later confirmed in canon in the New Essential Guide to Droids. Why does the Guide specifically mention this for G0-T0's entry, if it's not important to the plot? It would seem far more significant to the game itself than to some Guide.


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Old 09-02-2006, 06:38 PM   #47
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Jediphile:
Lol... You like arguing alot. Lol...

You don't get out much do you. Lol...

In order for me to continue with this debate, I will have to read the New Essential Guide to Droids book that you are talking about. I just read up on the discription, and it looks like a supplement book. Truthfuly, I think the whole thing is full of shnite.



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Old 09-02-2006, 07:09 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
I don't believe time restraints was the sole reason, which M4-78 and the HK-Factory were omitted.
Mac is right. Jediphile, some technical knowledge of the game would help in your arguments. Have you examined the dialogue files in some of the areas where things were cut from TSL? The devs labeled some things in there "A-priority" "B-priority" and "C-priority", for scripting sequences which an experienced scripter could make in less than half an hour. Surely the deadline was not that specific?

This question is just idle curiosity, but is there a reason you leap at opportunities to debate but never go the Senate Chambers?


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Old 09-02-2006, 08:49 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
Jediphile:
Lol... You like arguing alot. Lol...

You don't get out much do you. Lol...
Now, now... None of that, if you please. I am scarcely the subject of the discussion here, so any reference to my status in or out - as the case may be - would, at best, seem inappropriate. And at worst, insulting or condescending.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
In order for me to continue with this debate, I will have to read the New Essential Guide to Droids book that you are talking about. I just read up on the discription, and it looks like a supplement book. Truthfuly, I think the whole thing is full of shnite.
Be that as it may, it is still a reference book officially approved by the parent company, leaving little doubt as to its authenticy on the subject of canonic events.

And since it would have been a rather uncomplicated matter to simple ignore the matter of G0-T0's death on Malachor V, it would seem more than reasonable to assume that this is an acknowledgement of the missing content. For a game that - as you claim - is complete, is it not rather strange that we get the resolution to the G0-T0 vs. Remote showdown in this obscure book rather than in the game itself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Mac is right. Jediphile, some technical knowledge of the game would help in your arguments. Have you examined the dialogue files in some of the areas where things were cut from TSL? The devs labeled some things in there "A-priority" "B-priority" and "C-priority", for scripting sequences which an experienced scripter could make in less than half an hour. Surely the deadline was not that specific?
And how does this address the greater topic of the flawed plot that I refer to? Certainly I have dug into the dialog.tlk. Seeing as how I have referred to it on numerious occasions already that would seem to be a given. And although there may be priorities among things in the plot, I dare say that some sidepoints that are of no consequence to the plot still made it into the game. Does the Twi'lek enslaved on Citadel station play an important part of the plot? Do Suulru's vaporators on Dantooine? Doubtful, and yet they're still in the game, whereas the HK factory is not. Or are you suggesting that these quests are more significant to the plot than the HK factory? I would hazard a guess and say that is not so. The simple truth is likely that putting these minor quests in the game was both easy and convenient to do while those parts of the game were being written, whereas the HK factory was an entire module onto itself and therefore a far greater undertaking to implement, and of less priority than the actual planets, seeing as how finding the jedi masters (on each planet) is the greater quest of the game itself. This does not mean that the HK factory is not of signficance to how the greater plot unfolds, nor do I hear you make that argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
This question is just idle curiosity, but is there a reason you leap at opportunities to debate but never go the Senate Chambers?
I fail to see what you're trying to insinuate. The matter is simply being discussed here and now.


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Last edited by RedHawke; 09-03-2006 at 01:37 AM. Reason: Combining double post...
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Old 09-02-2006, 09:57 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
And how does this address the greater topic of the flawed plot that I refer to?
What are you speaking of? The KotOR series doesn't have any "flawed" plots, and I wasn't addressing anything outside of it.

Anyhow, I posted that because you seemed to be implying TSL's cut content was due to time constraints.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Does the Twi'lek enslaved on Citadel station play an important part of the plot?
Not at all. TSL is an RPG. In RPGs you do quests that have little or no relevance to the plot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
I fail to see what you're trying to insinuate. The matter is simply being discussed here and now.
Red my post again. I was only wondering out of idle curiosity why you never post in the Senate Chambers when you seem to enjoy debating. That had no relevance to what we are discussing.

Also, you're not supposed to doube post. Using the edit button would be best.


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Old 09-02-2006, 10:53 PM   #51
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Jediphile still hasn't read my posts about what I consider 'accidental edits'. I mentioned there were some events that were accidentally removed while editing, and some pieces omitted from Malacore V did count as such errors.

See bottom of post 38 on page 1:
Quote:
Cut Content = HK-Factory & M4-78 (Intentionally removed for unknown reasons.)

Accidental Edits = Small tidbits of dialouge and scenes throughout the remainder of the game, which were accidently omited or left behind. (These pieces would include: GoTo vrs. Remote, What happend to my companions when we hit Malacore, and accidentally leaving in dialouge information about the factory. That is about it.)
An example of Obsidian having enough time can be found in the dialouge files. Obsidian built a labeling and numbering system, so they could complete their work in a timely and organized manner. Since their work was organized, this would have allowed them to work efficiently to complete KotOR II. Otherwords, they most likely had the time to complete the game. Ultimately, they didn't give themselves enough time to clean up bad editing. There is a great possibility of Obsidian not proofing their work.

When it comes to the importance of side-quests, they are not necessary to the main story being told. Since HK Factory and M4-78 were omited, Obsidian tried to edit them out of the game. Our main question is: Why did they edit them out? There could be hundreds of reason why this happened. Since they did use an organized system, to keep track of their work, there is a less likely chance of Obsidian not having enough time. Therefore, the game is completed. The only thing one can conclude is that TSL is suffering from bad editing.

Looking at canon is debatable. Something can be consider canon, and it does not have to apear in one specific place. Just because TaunTauns are canon, this does not mean they have to show up in all six movies. This information could possibly be used in other media, or it can be mentioned at a later time.

Inorder to clearify what I mentioned in another post, I will outline how I perceive what certain events were classified as.

Cut Content:
(This information was intentionally omitted for some unknown reason.)

- HK Factory
- M4-78

Editing Errors:
(Small tidbits of dialouge and scenes throughout the remainder of the game, which were accidently omited or left behind.)


Should have been taken out:
- Characters mentioning the HK Factory
- Any information about side-quests that they tried to remove.

Should have been left in:
- Missing elements from Malacore V, which would have shead some light to the end game. (Includes: GoTo vrs. Remote; What happened to your companions, the sacrifices, etc...)

TSL is filled with proofing errors. Anything that was cut intentionally from the game is not important for the overall story. TSL is a completed game with tidbits missing, and anything that was intentionally cut is not important. HK Factory and M4-78 were intentionally cut, so their weight on the overall story is not important.

Kreia's Prophesy Dialouge
I also believe that the gammer should have been forced to hear Kreia out. If you (the gammer) are not allowed to finish the game unless you go through all of her dialouge, I believe people would have notice the game actually had an ending. The fate of your companions is revealed.

When everything is said and done, you should only be asking yourself a few questions:
1. (DS) What happened to Exile on Malacore?
2. (LS) Where in the Unknown regions did Exile go? Did he meet up with Revan?
3. Where did Revan go? What did Revan find?

-------------------------------------------------------

After repeating all of my posts in one posting, I hope that you read the information in its entirety. Thank you for your time.



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Last edited by MacLeodGR; 09-02-2006 at 11:37 PM. Reason: Grammar and spelling and clearity
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Old 09-03-2006, 06:51 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
Jediphile still hasn't read my posts about what I consider 'accidental edits'. I mentioned there were some events that were accidentally removed while editing, and some pieces omitted from Malacore V did count as such errors.
I read it. I just didn't see that it had any relevance to the conclusions you reached. I still don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
An example of Obsidian having enough time can be found in the dialouge files. Obsidian built a labeling and numbering system, so they could complete their work in a timely and organized manner. Since their work was organized, this would have allowed them to work efficiently to complete KotOR II. Otherwords, they most likely had the time to complete the game. Ultimately, they didn't give themselves enough time to clean up bad editing. There is a great possibility of Obsidian not proofing their work.
That's a lot of supposition. Basically you're suggesting that because they organized their work from the beginning, it becomes virtually impossible that they ran out of time and had to drop stuff they did not intend. Excuse me, but that does not seem to be a very compelling argument to me. Running out of time and seeing the deadline hit hard and brutally is always possible, no matter how well prepared you were. It happens all the time, and especially in the gaming industry. How many games have we seen be delayed over just the last few years?

But then there is little point in me making the argument, when other people have done it far better. Consult these for other perspectives on the matter:

http://theforce.net/latestnews/story...ersy_90085.asp
http://theforce.net/jedicouncil/editorials/030405.asp
http://www.gamespy.com/articles/588/588057p1.html

None of these are new, but do illustrate the problem rather strongly.

And they also speak to the question of just how "intentional" those cuts were on Obsidian's behalf. There has even been talk of Obsidian actually requesting to do a content patch, which LA wouldn't let them do. It's speculative because it was mentioned by a developer to a fan, who then posted it on Obsidian's boards, which apparently didn't sit too well with some people, because the topic was promptly deleted. However, there is still mention of it on the Obsidian boards:

http://forums.obsidianent.com/index....dpost&p=291888

If you go down a little further in that topic (to post 57), you'll see mention of the people involved. However, since no such content patch was ever made, we can conclude what Lucasarts' answer was... And needless to say, Obsidian would not have asked for permission to do a content patch, if the game had been finished the way they intended it to be, since there would have been no need to.

ADDENDUM: Interestingly, I've just read that NWN2 is delayed for about a month. So much for the theory that Obsidian has all their progress tied up neatly and happening exactly according to schedule, I guess...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
Looking at canon is debatable. Something can be consider canon, and it does not have to apear in one specific place. Just because TaunTauns are canon, this does not mean they have to show up in all six movies.
??????????

I fail completely to see your point here. It's not as if I've suggested the game is flawed because there are no TIE Fighters or Jawas in it.

I can only assume that is some (very odd) reference to the fact that I mentioned the outcome of the G0-T0 vs. Remote scene being described in the New Essential Guide to droids. What I said in that context is that it is very odd that the outcome of scene is described in the New Essential Guide to Droids, but not in the game where the actual scene took place and was even written and voiceacted. The scene is NOT something other people thought off later - you can see it in the dialog.tlk and hear it in the soundfiles - it's all there. Given that, isn't it odd that the cutscene is missing in the game, but described in the guide? I mean, it's only part of the conclusion to the game...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
Should have been taken out:
- Characters mentioning the HK Factory
- Any information about side-quests that they tried to remove.

Should have been left in:
- Missing elements from Malacore V, which would have shead some light to the end game. (Includes: GoTo vrs. Remote; What happened to your companions, the sacrifices, etc...)
Again, if you remove the HK factory, then the plot is flawed. You have the HK-50s hunting you for about half the game, and then they are suddenly abandoned. At best that is a loose end. But when it comes to the HK-47 vs. G0-T0 showdown, it becomes missing plot, because you can't have that confrontation without the HK factory. And since that confrontation is the conclusion to the Remove vs. G0-T0 scene (whether LS or DS), then you can't have a conclusion to it, because there is something missing from the plot that you need to establish to get to the point, i.e., plothole.

And as for the bit about your companions, if it should have been left in, then why isn't it? The soundfiles for the Visas vs. Handmaiden/Atton vs. Disciple and even Atton vs. Sion are all there. And considering that at least the Atton vs. Sion fight was player controlled (and you already controlled Atton once, on Nar Shaddaa), it would seem a relatively small matter to put that in there, especially when the Exile also fights Sion in the same location.

Partial list of cut ending here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cut_e...The_Sith_Lords

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
TSL is filled with proofing errors. Anything that was cut intentionally from the game is not important for the overall story. TSL is a completed game with tidbits missing, and anything that was intentionally cut is not important. HK Factory and M4-78 were intentionally cut, so their weight on the overall story is not important.
On the contrary. If you cut the HK factory, then you cannot have any resolution to the Remote vs. G0-T0 scene, which you say yourself should have been left in. What? Could we have had HK-47 turning up with an army of HK-51s loyal to him without any explanation? Nope. Again, plothole rearing its ugly head. M4-78 can be cut, though, since doing so has no impact on the greater plot. We could call it disappointing that Vash is just dead on Korriban instead, but it does work plotwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
Kreia's Prophesy Dialouge
I also believe that the gammer should have been forced to hear Kreia out. If you (the gammer) are not allowed to finish the game unless you go through all of her dialouge, I believe people would have notice the game actually had an ending. The fate of your companions is revealed.
... leaving (again) the player thinking: "If, given that Kreia talks about their future, my companions are alive, then where the heck are they right now?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
When everything is said and done, you should only be asking yourself a few questions:
1. (DS) What happened to Exile on Malacore?
2. (LS) Where in the Unknown regions did Exile go? Did he meet up with Revan?
3. Where did Revan go? What did Revan find?
The problem is that while you ask yourself those questions, there are dozens more. And so - while I agree that those you have here are the important ones at the end of the game - they sort of become secondary to the more immediate questions of just what the heck is happening on Malachor V. And it hurts the plot that you end up confused and ask a gazillion other questions instead of those few that you should due to cut content.


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Old 09-03-2006, 08:27 PM   #53
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Not sure who's side I'm on cause I can't sit and read THAT much arguing but IMO the droid factory would have been removed for time constraints; as it's actually quite major from a story viewpoint. Go-to and the HK's were strongly bonded to this story and I'd find it unlikely Obsidian could have removed it the way they did for any other reason than having to cut down quickly. If they had time and it was a creative decision the ties to the plot would have been adjusted accordingly.
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Old 09-08-2006, 12:40 PM   #54
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Jediphile - I read through those articles you have posted. What is interesting is that they quote a quote of a quote, and they don't go back to a Obsidian or Lucas Arts source. Otherwords, TheForce.net quoted Craig Dixon who quoted Obsidian, but he has no proof that he talked to Obsidian and he does not provide a link himself. Not to mention Craig Dixon was quoting several other game magazines. Even the thread at Obsidian was based upon fan theory. Truthfully, your sources are a load of shnite.

You are basing your theory on external sources. You are holding your theory based upon a ideology that would dissmiss what the publisher and developer had done. I call that nieve. If you want the answers, you should go directly to the source.

You are also very illogical. Look at what solid evidence there is, and draw conclusions based upon logic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
When everything is said and done, you should only be asking yourself a few questions:
1. (DS) What happened to Exile on Malacore?
2. (LS) Where in the Unknown regions did Exile go? Did he meet up with Revan?
3. Where did Revan go? What did Revan find?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
The problem is that while you ask yourself those questions, there are dozens more. And so - while I agree that those you have here are the important ones at the end of the game - they sort of become secondary to the more immediate questions of just what the heck is happening on Malachor V. And it hurts the plot that you end up confused and ask a gazillion other questions instead of those few that you should due to cut content.
Your above reply is shortsighted. You completely ignore logic. Do pigs fly in real life?

Look at everything that has been said. You continue to dissmiss what people are posting. I will not spell it out for you. Read everything completely.



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Old 09-08-2006, 02:11 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
It is very sad that people believe TSL was an incomplete game. There is a difference between 'incomplete' and 'accidental edits'.
When I spoke with a couple guys from Obsidian at E3, they mentioned the leader of the K2 project said he would finish K2 on his own time after they were forced to release it. Obsidian had other plans for him however, keeping him busy on new projects, giving him no time to finish K2 as he planned.


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Old 09-08-2006, 02:26 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by playloud
When I spoke with a couple guys from Obsidian at E3, they mentioned the leader of the K2 project said he would finish K2 on his own time after they were forced to release it. Obsidian had other plans for him however, keeping him busy on new projects, giving him no time to finish K2 as he planned.
The whole problem is: You can't prove you talked to them, and you can't prove your are a reliable source.

What factual evidence do we have, (Information that came directly from Obsidian and Lucas Arts), which says the sole reason for M4-78's and HK-Factory's absence from KotOR II is time restraints?

Factual evidence has to be:
1. From one of the sources: Lucas Arts or Obsidian
2. Something that can be proven.



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Old 09-08-2006, 03:07 PM   #57
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Honestly, I don't give a rats behind whether you believe me or not. I know what I did, and what I said was the truth.


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Old 09-08-2006, 03:37 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by playloud
Honestly, I don't give a rats behind whether you believe me or not. I know what I did, and what I said was the truth.
We are looking for some proof, and not for more speculation. If you desire arguments over debate, you should visit the Senate Chambers. You can find that in the Jedi Knights section of Lucas Forums.

Its not my problem that your evidence is flawed. I personally think you came into this conversation to argue. I also think your full of garbage at this point.

Jediphile and I are having a clean debate. I am trying to get him to find proof over specualtion. I respect his opinion, but I would like proof.

I personally think you are a liar.



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Old 09-08-2006, 04:43 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
We are looking for some proof, and not for more speculation. If you desire arguments over debate, you should visit the Senate Chambers. You can find that in the Jedi Knights section of Lucas Forums.

Its not my problem that your evidence is flawed. I personally think you came into this conversation to argue. I also think your full of garbage at this point.

Jediphile and I are having a clean debate. I am trying to get him to find proof over specualtion. I respect his opinion, but I would like proof.

I personally think you are a liar.
"Then you are lost!"

As I said, I don't care what you think. I heard what I heard from people at Obsidian, and people can choose to believe me/them or not. I am only reporting what they said. I did not make this up to start arguing with you. I stated this months ago...

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=165137

If you want to keep arguing how the game was completed, don't let me stop you. I agree with you that they gave it an ending, and therefore can be considered complete, but it was done because they ran out of time, and LA wanted to release the game. The decision to end it the way they did was not done because they thought it would make a better game. It was done because they had no choice. One man wanted to finish what he had started, but did not get the opportunity.

Edit: It really doesn't matter one way or the other does it? It is the way it is. Now, we can just wait for Team Gizka to finish the restoration, and hope LA gives the OK for KoTOR 3.


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Old 09-08-2006, 05:16 PM   #60
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^^^^^^^^^^^
You obviously do care, or you would not have responded.

Why does the 'TSL Restoration' team's name come up everytime we talk about this issue? Is there some type of emotional breakdown that occurs when topics like this come up, and some people have to drag up the Restoration team's name? What does TSL Restoration team have to do with Obsidian and Lucas Arts? Do they have any type of involvement?

People have to get it into their heads: TSL Restoration team are a bunch of no-bodies, and they have absolutely no connection to Obsidian and Lucas Arts. There is no conspiracy that would connect this team to anyone from Lucas Arts or Obsidian.

People are using blind faith when they are approaching these people. You never know, they could be a bunch of hackers, and they are planning to have a virus activate after you finish the game. Too much blind faith. (I am just trying to make a point. They are probally just fans having fun.)

---------------------------------------

Back onto subject:
I think we need some solid proof, which does not come from trying to force an issue. If anyone's proof comes from another site's speculation, I would consider it a just speculation. We need some information, which comes from Obsidian and/or Lucas Arts. Something that can be tested, so we can draw a conclusion.



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Old 09-08-2006, 05:23 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
^^^^^^^^^^^
You obviously do care, or you would not have responded.

Why does the 'TSL Restoration' team's name come up everytime we talk about this issue? Is there some type of emotional breakdown that occurs when topics like this come up, and some people have to drag up the Restoration team's name? What does TSL Restoration team have to do with Obsidian and Lucas Arts? Do they have any type of involvement?

People have to get it into their heads: TSL Restoration team are a bunch of no-bodies, and they have absolutely no connection to Obsidian and Lucas Arts. There is no conspiracy that would connect this team to anyone from Lucas Arts or Obsidian.

People are using blind faith when they are approaching these people. You never know, they could be a bunch of hackers, and they are planning to have a virus activate after you finish the game. Too much blind faith. (I am just trying to make a point. They are probally just fans having fun.)
They may be fans having fun, but they are working on restoring the cut content. This is something that Obsidian is not doing (as far as we know). I will be happy to play the game again once the project is completed. I would be very happy to find out what the original intent of the game was.


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Old 09-08-2006, 06:11 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
The whole problem is: You can't prove you talked to them, and you can't prove your are a reliable source.

What factual evidence do we have, (Information that came directly from Obsidian and Lucas Arts), which says the sole reason for M4-78's and HK-Factory's absence from KotOR II is time restraints?

Factual evidence has to be:
1. From one of the sources: Lucas Arts or Obsidian
2. Something that can be proven.
What proof do you have that says time constraints wasn't the sole reason for the cut? Talking about being niave....

Jediphile is looking at the structure of the story. The obvious chunks removed, that leave the plot fragmented, appear to have led Jediphile to his/her (? lol) conclusion. I agree.
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Old 09-08-2006, 06:31 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
Jediphile - I read through those articles you have posted. What is interesting is that they quote a quote of a quote, and they don't go back to a Obsidian or Lucas Arts source. Otherwords, TheForce.net quoted Craig Dixon who quoted Obsidian, but he has no proof that he talked to Obsidian and he does not provide a link himself. Not to mention Craig Dixon was quoting several other game magazines. Even the thread at Obsidian was based upon fan theory. Truthfully, your sources are a load of shnite.

You are basing your theory on external sources. You are holding your theory based upon a ideology that would dissmiss what the publisher and developer had done. I call that nieve. If you want the answers, you should go directly to the source.
When those sources are silent, you look elsewhere. The sources I have given are speculative, yes, but I do find their points to be compelling, and I don't hear you question that conclusion either. Call it naive, if you will, but that is what I would call making the assumption that nothing was cut just because none of the people involved will admit it. Use of common sense is not a crime. You are allowed to use it too. However, if you simply do not want use it, then the argument is as pointless as a cleric's weapon. It is your right, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
You are also very illogical. Look at what solid evidence there is, and draw conclusions based upon logic.
That is precisely what I have done, as did the sources I mention. It is strange, is it not, that we are so many illogical people with the same flawed perspective... I suppose we can only aspire to your powers of deduction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
What factual evidence do we have, (Information that came directly from Obsidian and Lucas Arts), which says the sole reason for M4-78's and HK-Factory's absence from KotOR II is time restraints?

Factual evidence has to be:
1. From one of the sources: Lucas Arts or Obsidian
2. Something that can be proven.
Ah, so because Lucasarts and Obsidian do not confess to having cut the game to pieces for the sake of pushing a deadline, that means that it cannot have taken place?

Forgive me, but I find your reasoning flawed. Of course LA will not admit to it. Do you ever hear Microsoft admit that any of their programs have flaws? People rarely admit to their mistakes if they can get away with it, and in business that is virtually guaranteed, since the company can be held accountable for any admission of a flawed product.

Obsidian is a young company of experienced people in the business. But it's still a young company. They cannot stand up to a giant like LA. Sure, they could moan about the treatment they received from LA, but in that case they'll never work on KotOR3 or any other LA product again. That is not a very sound marketing strategy.

So of course you're not going to hear any admission from the companies involved, at least not officially. If that is what you demand, then you're asking the impossible. But you can open your eyes and use common sense, if you're willing. But it sounds to me you don't want to look at this matter objectively and refuse to accept anything but cold hard facts. Those might exist, but frankly I have better things to do that spend time looking for them. Besides, even if I found them, I doubt you would accept them.


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Old 09-08-2006, 07:35 PM   #64
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I agree. I think that we all need proof. In order for us to continue logically, there needs to be some proof that Obsidian either didn't or did delete HK-Factory and Droid Planet for time restraint reasons.

He is looking at dialouge chunks, which I called 'accidentaly omited or left behind edits'. In order for this converstation to continue, from all perspectives, we need to find interviews with Obsidian's perscpetive on why these elements were removed. We cannot rely on a third party.

I drew my conclusions on the same stuff as everyone else has. At this point, this topic can be ripped apart and pulled together to fit any theory.

"Ah, so because Lucasarts and Obsidian do not confess to having cut the game to pieces for the sake of pushing a deadline, that means that it cannot have taken place?" - Jediphile
Actually, this means that 'time restraints' (is or is not) the only reason why this stuff was removed. When I first entered this conversation, people were pushing 'time restraints' as the sole reason why the HK-Fatory and Droid Planet was removed. My case was to argue that there are other possibilities.

If people are so bent on making 'time restraints' the sole reason why HK-Factory and Droid Planet were removed, show us undeniable proof that this is the case.



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Old 09-08-2006, 11:05 PM   #65
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So, does the fact that KotOR II is playable to end make it complete? From a certain point of view, yes; however it cannot be denied that there are key plot points in the game which are unresolved and that there are a sizeable number of bugs and glitches in the game which cripple the gameplay, in other words, you could tell it was rushed and this game had missing content that was originally meant to be included in the game (the dialogue files prove that), but the question is, why wasn't it (the cut-content) included in the game?

Well, I think Jediphile has done a good job of pointing out the unresolved plot points in the game and the questions that go unanswered as a result of cut-content, so I don't have to worry about arguing that the plot of KotOR II on an overall basis was hacked to bits, because of cut-content. Around about the final 20-25% of the game was a mess and I'm definately not the only one that thinks that. The rest however, was excellent IMO.

Now, I too think that things such as the droid planet M4-78, the HK-Factory and the Malachor V party member resolutions were cut due to time-constraints, why? Well, here is the closest thing I can find that you could call 'proof'.

'http://www.rpgcodex.com/content.php?id=125'

This link shows an interview with Chris Avellone, the lead designer of KotOR II. The interview was posted on Wednesday the 8th of March 2006. The interview is lengthy, I read through it and managed to find this...

SERGE: What choice? To kill them or “collect” them? I don’t think there was much diplomacy there either. Comparing to the incredibly complex conversation with Ravel, for example, the execution of a good-in-theory “interacting/learning something of personal value” idea was flawed.

Also, in K2 I suppose the only consequences you see are Malachor V, Disciple, Atris, and it certainly happens nowhere near the same frequency as it does in Planescape Torment.

In the end, I do wish there had been more time and I wished I had had more time to work on the end game, and that was my fault. We did get a lot accomplished in the time we had, and I probably should have cut another planet (the droid planet got the axe). I still think it's a good RPG, we probably should have just made it shorter.


I'll leave that for people to interpret in their own way, this is the closest thing I could find to prove that KotOR II was rushed due to time-constraints and therefore was missing important plot content and had numerous bugs and glitches.

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Old 09-09-2006, 07:06 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
Actually, this means that 'time restraints' (is or is not) the only reason why this stuff was removed. When I first entered this conversation, people were pushing 'time restraints' as the sole reason why the HK-Fatory and Droid Planet was removed. My case was to argue that there are other possibilities.

If people are so bent on making 'time restraints' the sole reason why HK-Factory and Droid Planet were removed, show us undeniable proof that this is the case.
Well, there is one piece of information that is undeniable, if you are willing to believe Mike Gallo, one of the producers of the game. TSL was NOT planned to be released in december 2004!

How do I know this? Well, go and watch the very first trailer for the game.

http://www.gamespot.com/xbox/rpg/kot...toplay=6101084
(movie 1, posted june 22, in case you've banned pop-ups)

Mike Gallo will introduce himself and go through the game. All old news, but pay attention to what he says at the end:

"...Knights of the Old Republic II - the Sith Lords, scheduled to come out on the Xbox and PC in february 2005"

Note that he in no way mentions that the Xbox version is to come out earlier, though interestingly some of the later movies and trailers do. Why? The obvious reason would seem to be that the deadline was pushed. If not, then why does Mike Gallo mention a different release date in a game trailer from late in june 2004? Being a producer of the game, you'd think he knew when the game is to be released. Indeed, he does say it, only the time he says is not the one that it was eventually lauched on... for the Xbox version at least - for the PC version he was right.

Conclusion? Well, since the original release date was to be in febuary and the Xbox and PC versions are identical despite the Xbox version being released two montsh earlier, it natually follows that TSL was meant to have another two months of development to it - that is the only objective and logical conclusion that is possible to reach based on Mike Gallo's statements of the release schedule. That is unless, of course, you're going to question the veracity of the producer of the game itself. But then again, if you do that, then that says a lot too, since you would then be denying arguments that speak against your position even if it comes from a first party source. Note, please, that this is not speculation from a "third party" source, as you have dismissed in the past (and without looking at the logical arguments behind that speculation, I might add). No, it's the cold, hard truth from the mouth of the producer of the game itself.


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Old 09-09-2006, 07:45 PM   #67
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If I may make a point, Jediphile, some of the cut content contradicts what was in the game. It's entirely possible it was cut because of that, or because Obisidan thought that the Exile's party members killing each other was too dark. It's very likely that some of the content, such as M4-78, was cut due to time constraints. (It does take a while to make a planet.) However, no one can provide any solid proof as to why some things were not in the game.


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Old 09-09-2006, 07:51 PM   #68
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On the subject of the release date, trailer two released in July:

http://uk.gamespot.com/pages/video_p...89&tab=related

At the end of the trailer, Winter 2004.

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Old 09-09-2006, 08:22 PM   #69
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Emperor Devon makes some very good points. HK-Factory and M4-78 could have been omited for any number of reason, and we don't have solid proof that will point us into one specific direction.

The sloppy editting 'maybe' contributed to the release date moved up, but there are a number of other possibilities to why the bigger content was removed. That is why there is a difference between 'cut content' and 'bad editting'.

Keep in mind, we are not rulling out the possibility of 'time restraints', but there is no solid proof that will lead us into that direction.

http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost....0&postcount=51
If you read my post, I tried to seperate the content into two factions. One group is 'cut content', and the other group is 'Editing Errors'. I was trying to get people to see that there is evidence, which may lead to another possible conclusion.



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Old 09-09-2006, 09:39 PM   #70
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Didn't anyone read my previous post? Chris Avellone said in an interview that in the end, I do wish there had been more time and I wished I had had more time to work on the end game. I know that there are many other reasons apart from time-constraints that determine whether something is cut or not, but this interview was genuine, I have provided the address as to where I found this information in my previous post. The lead designer of KotOR II has said it himself, he wished he had more time. That means that time-constraints was the biggest reason why the last 20-25% of the game was poor. Do people seriously believe that in the short amount of development time that Obsidian had on KotOR II that they were going to finish the game in time? No way. KotOR II was originally intended to be released in February 2005 for the X-Box and PC, but due to the sudden change of plans by LucasArts, Obsidian were forced to rush the game and unfortunately cut most of their important plot closure content that they had originally intended to have in the game.
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Old 09-09-2006, 10:22 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
The lead designer of KotOR II has said it himself, he wished he had more time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
It's very likely that some of the content, such as M4-78, was cut due to time constraints.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Didn't anyone read my previous post?
I would ask the same thing...


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Old 09-10-2006, 04:36 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
If I may make a point, Jediphile, some of the cut content contradicts what was in the game. It's entirely possible it was cut because of that, or because Obisidan thought that the Exile's party members killing each other was too dark. It's very likely that some of the content, such as M4-78, was cut due to time constraints. (It does take a while to make a planet.) However, no one can provide any solid proof as to why some things were not in the game.
Be that as it may, any postulate that the deadline did not change is clearly in conflict with what Mike Gallo actually says: Both versions of the game were to be released in febuary 2005, not one in december 2004.

That the deadline was changed is therefore an undeniable fact.

But let me ask you this: Are you suggesting the idea that cutting two months from the development schedule of a game (and especially this game) will not have consequences? Given the already very short development schedule of TSL, that would be news indeed... But I note that both you and MacLeodGR have very carefully avoided saying that, which I really can't blame you for. MacLeodGR demanded proof, however, and strangely now that he has proof that the deadline was changed, he does not seem particularly eager to acknowledge it...

As for the reasons why these changes were made, that then becomes speculation. You may think they were cut for reasons other than time constrains. Fair enough. But the point of myself and others that SOME were cut because of the shorter development schedule is just as valid. After all, who's going to tell us that we're wrong? LA? Obsidian? Well, LA has its own ulterior motives for not being completely candid on the subject (since it would reflect badly on them in the light of fan disappointment), and Obsidian had better back them, if they ever want to do another game for LA. Conclusion: If we are to dismiss "third party sources", then there is no possibility of getting an objective explanation for why those cuts were made, unless some disgruntled employee decides to speak up (and lose his job).

Besides, I've said before that cutting M4-78 could be for either reason, since its removal doesn't impact the plot. I'd have liked to play it, but the plot works regardless. The same is not true of the cut endings and the HK factory, which are all missing plot and not just cut content. That LA subsequently retconned the HK-47 vs. G0-T0 ending by mentioning it in the New Essential Guide to Droids speaks volumes. You don't cut essential plot unless you have no other choice.


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Old 09-10-2006, 09:40 AM   #73
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Deadlines change all the time in the business that I am in. Regardless about how my clients adjust the schedulle, I allways give them 100%.

"Chris Avellone said in an interview that in the end, I do wish there had been more time and I wished I had had more time to work on the end game." - The Architect"
Yeah. I added that information under 'accidentally removed edits'. There is no doubt in my mind that Malacore was a result of bad editting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Avellone
5. When KOTOR 2 was announced, many people expected a game of the Planescape: Torment caliber, especially in the story, dialogue and NPCs departments. Sadly, it didn't happen. Can you tell us why?

CHRIS: Well, not a loaded question, but how did K2 fail compare to Torment in story, dialogue, and characters?

CHRIS: I take no offense to your honesty. But stay right where you are, a missile is arcing its way toward your home right now, and there is a lightsaber-wielding Jedi on top of it.

Okay, so character resonance - I do think Kreia was a deep character, personally, but I can see how you would feel that way with some other characters... people were strangely divided on Bao-Dur, for example, and G0-T0, while I enjoyed him and I thought his voice actor was awesome (Daran Norris from Team America), he never really clicked, and that's my fault. I also tried to add more personality to T3, but I'm not sure how well that turned out, either.

I thought the Jedi Masters would be cool, solely because instead of finding objects, you're finding people you interact with, which puts a new element of diplomacy and choice in there. Ultimately, we did want the same free-range exploration as the first game, so it all came down to how you present the motivation from planet to planet. I thought the fact they all knew something of personal value to you (the trial aftermath) would make the player more motivated to find them, but I don't think it worked with some people.

Also, in K2 I suppose the only consequences you see are Malachor V, Disciple, Atris, and it certainly happens nowhere near the same frequency as it does in Planescape Torment.

In the end, I do wish there had been more time and I wished I had had more time to work on the end game, and that was my fault. We did get a lot accomplished in the time we had, and I probably should have cut another planet (the droid planet got the axe). I still think it's a good RPG, we probably should have just made it shorter.
http://www.rpgcodex.com/content.php?id=125

Well, that answers the question as to why the Droid Planet and Malacore were not completed. But, it does not answer why the HK-Factory was removed.

It sounds like the Malacore V and Droid Planet suffered from Obsidian not adjusting their own schedule to the new deadline. Not time restraints, but not managing their work to fit the time given. He even blames himself for not managing the work he had to do in the time he was given.

If the game state was do to time restraints, they would have said, "Lucas Arts cut back our time, and that caused our work to be incomplete." Instead, he blames himself for not managing the time he was given, so he can personally complete certain elements of the game.

'Time Restraints' vrs. 'Not Managing the time given to carry out what needed to be done.' those are two different concepts. He didn't reorganize his schedulle effectivly to carry out what he needed to accomplish. This has nothing to do with 'time restaraints', but with him not managing his workload to fit the time given.



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Old 09-10-2006, 11:12 AM   #74
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That makes sense, but I still think LA are partially to blame. If Lucasarts had seen how the situation was, they should have ADDED a few months to the development instead if cutting two away.
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Old 09-10-2006, 12:09 PM   #75
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That makes sense, but I still think LA are partially to blame. If Lucasarts had seen how the situation was, they should have ADDED a few months to the development instead if cutting two away.
Or - If Chris Avellone had told them how things were in the first place, maybe Lucas Arts would have given them a waiver.

Chris Avellone could have thought optimistic about Obsidian's ability to meet LA's deadline and said, "No problem man. We can do it." At the end of the day, the bad editing would be chaulked up to bad management. Thus, time restraints had nothing to do with KotOR II's current state.

Either way, the game is complete in its current form. There is a beginning, middle, and end. Just with bad editting gaps, which were caused by bad management.

We would have to look at: 'Time Retraints (LA)' vrs. 'Bad Management (OE)'. We are talking about territory, which I am still learning myself. I know that if I am given a deadline, I would do two things: 1. Be honest with my client. 2. Give 100% to meet the agreed deadline, which includes a very well packaged product.

I don't believe that all the 'cut content' is due to bad management. I think there are still other reasons why certain items were removed from the game, and they were just not removed from the game files before release.



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Old 09-10-2006, 12:29 PM   #76
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I think, from looking at the HK factory modules and some of the lead-up to it, it must have been time. It's almost all there, the parts for it are all ready to drop into the story, it just needs the final bits put together...



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Old 09-10-2006, 12:44 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
Deadlines change all the time in the business that I am in. Regardless about how my clients adjust the schedulle, I allways give them 100%.

"Chris Avellone said in an interview that in the end, I do wish there had been more time and I wished I had had more time to work on the end game." - The Architect"
Yeah. I added that information under 'accidentally removed edits'. There is no doubt in my mind that Malacore was a result of bad editting.
The release was said to be febuary 2005 in late june. To me that suggests that the last 50% of the worktime was cut by 20-25%. Work schedules are essential in the gaming industry, where the deadlines are frequently pushed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
It sounds like the Malacore V and Droid Planet suffered from Obsidian not adjusting their own schedule to the new deadline. Not time restraints, but not managing their work to fit the time given. He even blames himself for not managing the work he had to do in the time he was given.

If the game state was do to time restraints, they would have said, "Lucas Arts cut back our time, and that caused our work to be incomplete." Instead, he blames himself for not managing the time he was given, so he can personally complete certain elements of the game.

'Time Restraints' vrs. 'Not Managing the time given to carry out what needed to be done.' those are two different concepts. He didn't reorganize his schedulle effectivly to carry out what he needed to accomplish. This has nothing to do with 'time restaraints', but with him not managing his workload to fit the time given.
Cute. So you're basically just going to deny the evidence that the deadline was changed, even though that clearly affects the amount of work that Obsidian could do. That you then just casually suggest that Obsidian should have been able to adjust to the new schedule demonstrates beyond any doubt that you're completely unwilling or unable to entertain the idea that the LA gutted the game for the sake of profits and so rushed the product. Fine. But I shall consider then consider you beyond reasonable argument and conclude that you're biased and that no argument or evidence to the contrary will sway you, since you're unwilling to look at it and consider it's implications objectively. Therefore it will be a pointless waste of time to provide you with any evidence in spite of your claim that you're interested in it, since you'll simply ignore them as a matter of course, and I'm not willing to accept you as the final arbiter and judge on the subject. My only logical course of action is therefore to respond in a similar matter and ignore your claims of interest in the matter in the future on this subject and instead devote my time to those who are actually willing to listen to reason and common sense. Thank you.


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Old 09-10-2006, 12:49 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth InSidious
I think, from looking at the HK factory modules and some of the lead-up to it, it must have been time. It's almost all there, the parts for it are all ready to drop into the story, it just needs the final bits put together...
You know what. After rethinking about the levels, there was a mess of stuff done. All they needed to do is stitch things together. I am wondering if Obsidian felt optimistic, and agreed with the new deadline believing it could be finished.

Overall, the game does have an ending, and your companions' fates are explained by Kreia. Malacore is suffering from bad edits, which may be do to not giving 'themselves' enough time to fix them. HK-Factory was last second deleted because they didn't manage the job in a way to give 'themselves' enough time to finish it. This has nothing to do with Lucas Arts giving Obsidian a closser deadline (time restraints), but with Obsidian not managing their workload to fit the time they did agree upon (giving themselves enough time).

Yeah. This game is not a 'cliff hanger' in the sense that everything has not been said, but with what has been edited baddly. The only questions we should be asking when we complete the game are:
1. (LS) Where is the Exile going?
2. (DS) Did the Exile survive Malacore?
3. What happened to Revan?

Because Obsidian didn't give 'themselves' enough time to edit the game, we have some questionable gaps in the story.

Jediphile - Chris clearly blamed himself for not having enough time. Read it again, and look at what I underlined. That means that they didn't give 'themselves' enough time to deal with the issues at hand. (Post #73)

He does not say, "I wish we were given more time." Read what I bolded and underlined in post #73 carefully. They didn't manage the workload correctly to meet the new deadline they agreed upon; therefore, they (Obsidian) didn't give themselves enough time. Obsidian could have felt optimistic, and agreed with Lucas Arts on a new release date.

This is not a 'time restraint' issue, this is a 'time and workload management' issue, which Obsidian inflicted upon themselves.



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Old 09-10-2006, 01:37 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
That the deadline was changed is therefore an undeniable fact.
I have not and will not deny that. But why you are bringing up that topic I can only guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
But let me ask you this: Are you suggesting the idea that cutting two months from the development schedule of a game (and especially this game) will not have consequences?
Of course it will have consequences. But whether they are good or bad ones is a different matter. It would've been cool to have the cut content in TSL, but I don't think its absence detracts from the game that much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
MacLeodGR demanded proof, however, and strangely now that he has proof that the deadline was changed, he does not seem particularly eager to acknowledge it...
I think you are failing to grasp the point. It's not the deadline changing, but whether the cut content was missing due to time constraints or whatnot. Simply saying the deadline changed is no proof of that. Since quite a few bits of the cut content could've been implemented in less than a day, I am doubtful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
You may think they were cut for reasons other than time constrains. Fair enough.
Exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
You don't cut essential plot unless you have no other choice.
The Goto scene could've been made by a modder in less than fifteen minutes. Surely Obsidian's deadline was not strained to a matter of minutes?


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Old 09-10-2006, 02:26 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
You know what. After rethinking about the levels, there was a mess of stuff done. All they needed to do is stitch things together. I am wondering if Obsidian felt optimistic, and agreed with the new deadline believing it could be finished.

Overall, the game does have an ending, and your companions' fates are explained by Kreia. Malacore is suffering from bad edits, which may be do to not giving 'themselves' enough time to fix them. HK-Factory was last second deleted because they didn't manage the job in a way to give 'themselves' enough time to finish it. This has nothing to do with Lucas Arts giving Obsidian a closser deadline (time restraints), but with Obsidian not managing their workload to fit the time they did agree upon (giving themselves enough time).
To me this is an apologist argument in favor of LA, who clearly can do no wrong unless they say so in public themselves. Any evidence to the contrary is ignored, because LA did not confess to it themselves, and so the blame must by definition lie somewhere else, in this case Obsidian. That Obsidian would most likely never do another project for LA if they spoke out in public is apparently not worth considering in that equation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
Because Obsidian didn't give 'themselves' enough time to edit the game, we have some questionable gaps in the story.
That Obsidian didn't give themselves enough time is a claim that you will have to provide proof for. I have provided proof that the deadline was changed. Where is your proof?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
Jediphile - Chris clearly blamed himself for not having enough time. Read it again, and look at what I underlined. That means that they didn't give 'themselves' enough time to deal with the issues at hand. (Post #73)
No, that's argumentative. It is also a circular argument. Of course Chris is going to "blame himself". And read that again - it's not so much blame as regret, which is not the same thing. And you're still ignoring that Obsidian casting blame on LA will have consequences that would make them keep their silence. To say the least, your conclusions are highly questionable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
Obsidian could have felt optimistic, and agreed with Lucas Arts on a new release date.
You speculate, then immediately proceed to accept that that speculation as fact, so that you can place the blame with Obsidian. Again, where is your proof?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
This is not a 'time restraint' issue, this is a 'time and workload management' issue, which Obsidian inflicted upon themselves.
Still don't see any proof. And you're forgetting that the deadline is not something that is Obsidian can discuss with LA. No, it's something that LA dictates. That TSL was Obsidian's first game is not insignificant.


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