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Old 09-10-2006, 04:46 PM   #81
The Source
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Jediphile - After reading everyone's comments, and seeing what proof people brought to this thread, I can honestly say that everything is pointing into a direction that you are not lookiing at. Chris Avellone's comments speak for themselves. There are other reasons to why certain 'cut content' has been removed, and 'time restraints' are not soley the answer.

When it comes to the Droid Planet and Malacore V, Obsidian didn't give 'themselves' enough time, and they didn't manage the remaining workload. Its all about managing the workload to fit the time, and Chris Avellone clearly said it was his fault. However, this doesn't answer why 'all' the other cut content, that he doesn't talk about, had to be removed (edited) from the game. As you may have noticed, he mostly was focusing on the endgame.

As for the remaining content, that he does not mention, the reasons for their omittion are just not publically known. Everything else was editted out of the game, or information was accidentaly left in game, for unknown reasons. These reasons can be anything from: 1) Not fitting the current storyline. 2) Not giving 'themselves' enough time to edit stuff out. 3) Accidentally, left items behind during the editting phase. 4) Etc...

------------------------------------------

Editted: Added::
There is one thing I did get from this conversation. I have deep respect for Chris Avellone. He stood up to the plate, and said, "The buck stops here." He knew he made a mistake, and then he came forward to admit his error. I have to admire that. Not many people would admit when they are wrong, and he clearly comes forth with his faults. Good man!



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Old 09-10-2006, 05:41 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
Jediphile - After reading everyone's comments, and seeing what proof people brought to this thread, I can honestly say that everything is pointing into a direction that you are not lookiing at.
What I can honestly say is:

1. You still put yourself up as the authority you finally gets to judge this matter. I fail to see how you can assume that position.

2. You still bring no proof to support your position.

3. I was correct to assume that appealing to your common sense was futile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
When it comes to the Droid Planet and Malacore V, Obsidian didn't give 'themselves' enough time, and they didn't manage the remaining workload. Its all about managing the workload to fit the time, and Chris Avellone clearly said it was his fault. However, this doesn't answer why 'all' the other cut content, that he doesn't talk about, had to be removed (edited) from the game. As you may have noticed, he mostly was focusing on the endgame.
4. This is still speculative, and you bring no proof to support it. You demanded proof, but provide none yourself, and yet you expect other people to accept your conclusions. Please tell us why we should? After all, if you ignore not only our assumptions, let alone our proof, then we should we accept your speculations without any proof? Basically you expect one set of rules to apply to you and another to apply to those you disagree with. That does not seem very fair to me.


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Old 09-10-2006, 06:51 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
What I can honestly say is:

1. You still put yourself up as the authority you finally gets to judge this matter. I fail to see how you can assume that position.
There are far more people qualified to make a conclusion than myself. I was talking mostly about what I have concluded, and how I saw it through my own eyes. I don't speak for everyone else. Their posts speak for themselves, and I happen to agree with them.

I didn't need any proof, for I wasn't the one yelling, "The sky is falling. The sky is falling." Plus, everyone provided my proof for me. I didn't need any. The original poster of the Chris Avellon quote took it out of context, and I placed it back into context. As you can see, the quote speaks volumes when you place it back into its original form. Leaving out words can change a quote's or a scentence's meaning. Removing the quote from a paragraph can also change the meaning. I just placed it back into context. It is not my fault that your proof back fired.

I personally don't like to be manipulated, and now I know how everyone else felt when I pulled what you did. A lesson greatly learned well.

Next time you come to the table, bring some difinitive proof. Don't take anything out of context, and read things from beginning to end. Go cry in a corner or something.

Have a nice day.

In the greatest words ever spoken by the Deadman, this topic will "Rest in Peace."



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Old 09-11-2006, 09:02 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Unlike KotOR, TSL expects you to think about these things. As the Ebon Hawk was extremely damaged, it would have been a stupid idea to just leave it there. It's most likely that the crew was repairing it. If anything, I would wonder about why only two companions can come with you on the Star Forge. The Ebon Hawk was protected by the Jedi, after all.



Isn't it obvious? If you're on the light side, the remote somehow got by Goto to activate the mass shadow generator. If you're on the dark side, the remote fails.



A minor thing buried deep in HK's dialogue compared to the huge plot hole in KotOR. They never even explain how Revan and Malak fell to the dark side. All that's stated is "something happened to them along the Rim", although it's never explained.



How? All that those cut parts of the game really do is show scenes with obvious outcomes, or add other things that prolong the gameplay and have no relevance to the plot.
Following your logic it seems "obvious" that the PC trimuphs versus his/her enemies. And in fact it is.

But we still want to see such things in the game.

Would you be satisfied with star wars episode 6 if the final battle was left out, but instead (and that is even more than kotor 2 offers) a narrator tells us
"and in the end the emperor was defeated and the Alliance was victorious"?


A good plot does not only have the absolutely necessary elements in it. One common mistake of writers is that they assume that some things are "logical" when they really are not.
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Old 09-11-2006, 07:02 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
Would you be satisfied with star wars episode 6 if the final battle was leftout, but instead (and that is even more than kotor 2 offers) a narrator tells us
"and in the end the emperor was defeated and the Alliance was victorious"?
I would not be. However, those are completely different situations, which I assume you realize.


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Old 09-12-2006, 09:50 AM   #86
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There are far more people qualified to make a conclusion than myself. I was talking mostly about what I have concluded, and how I saw it through my own eyes. I don't speak for everyone else.
Erm, in a word: No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
Jediphile - After reading everyone's comments, and seeing what proof people brought to this thread, I can honestly say that everything is pointing into a direction that you are not lookiing at.
This is judgmental, not disagreement. You look upon what I conclude, and then you judge it as wrong. You don't say you merely disagree with it, you flat out say that my conclusion is incorrect. There is a significant difference between the two, whether you like to admit it or not.

And when you take it upon yourself to say things like "I can honestly say that everything is pointing into a direction that you are not looking at", then you're speaking to factual relevance and therefore setting yourself up as an authority on the subject. By all means disagree, but then stop there. Because there is no basis for me accepting your "judgment" over that of anyone else unless you can provide factual information to support your position. Which, so far, you have not.

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Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
I didn't need any proof, for I wasn't the one yelling, "The sky is falling. The sky is falling."
Who did? Nobody did. Some of us think the game was cut due to a premature deadline. I have proven that the deadline was indeed changed during the last eight (or rather six, as it were) months of work. A conservative estimate leads to the conclusion that the worktime from june 2004 to the deadline was cut by about 25%, since eight months remaining were cut down to six months - of course, you can argue that finishing the game in febuary when it was to come out is senseless, since the game would naturally have to be completed some time before its release, but then if you do that, you would have to cut the time between program completion until release away from both the old deadline and the new one. Assuming that's a month, it would then be seven months cut down to five, making the cut schedule closer to 30%, and so making the equation even worse. The only conclusion possible is that the deadline was cut by at least 25% or more after june 2004. Those are the cold, hard facts.

Granted, the consequences can then be argued, but you have not proven that yours are correct, nor that mine are wrong. Indeed, at the risk of repeating myself, your conclusions are highly questionable, since it would seem obvious that cutting the two months from the last eight before the deadline would naturally have an impact on any game.

Does saying that cutting the deadline from june by 25% results in cuts to the plot constitute yelling that "the sky is falling?" If it does, then you'll have to prove that too. After all, it goes both ways - if you won't accept my word on this subject, then why should I accept yours?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
Plus, everyone provided my proof for me. I didn't need any. The original poster of the Chris Avellon quote took it out of context, and I placed it back into context. As you can see, the quote speaks volumes when you place it back into its original form. Leaving out words can change a quote's or a scentence's meaning. Removing the quote from a paragraph can also change the meaning. I just placed it back into context. It is not my fault that your proof back fired.
Basically you're accusing The Architect of quoting out of context, which is rather impolite. At the very least you'll have to provide proof for that claim as well, and that will be difficult since The Architect did not misquote - he merely emphasized different things than you did. And by suggesting otherwise, you're again claiming a position of authority in this matter, as if you are the one who gets to decide what is the correct interpretation of what Chris Avellone said. What, the Architect doesn't have the right to think that other things in that interview were more significant that what you thought? Sure he does. So do I btw, and I happen to agree more with him than I do with you. As I've already said, it seems to me that Avellone accepts responsibility more on a sense of regret than because of guilt, because I still think that LA dictated the deadline, and that Obsidian had no choice but to comply. You continue to ignore the argument that Obsidian was not in a position to negotiate, since TSL was their first game, and they badly needed to establish themselves in the business. A dispute with a giant like LA in their very first game could have made them go bust before they even began. Besides, rumor has it that LA are hard to work for, and that this is the reason Bioware no longer does games for them.

I'll just repost this, since you apparently didn't read it the first time:

"Oh, and we know that LucasArts is notorious for handing developers ridiculously short development timetables, and forcing them to shove things out the door before the holiday rush."

http://www.gamespy.com/articles/588/588057p1.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
I personally don't like to be manipulated, and now I know how everyone else felt when I pulled what you did. A lesson greatly learned well.
If you learned something that's good. However, I really should report your passive-agressive comments here to the moderators... Strangely, I don't enjoy it when people infer that I'm being manipulative just because I unveil their flawed arguments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
Next time you come to the table, bring some difinitive proof. Don't take anything out of context, and read things from beginning to end. Go cry in a corner or something.
The judge has spoken!

Next time, bring ANY evidence yourself

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
In the greatest words ever spoken by the Deadman, this topic will "Rest in Peace."
Oops, seems I read the final judgment too late... How will I ever sleep tonight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
Would you be satisfied with star wars episode 6 if the final battle was left out, but instead (and that is even more than kotor 2 offers) a narrator tells us
"and in the end the emperor was defeated and the Alliance was victorious"?
I would not be. However, those are completely different situations, which I assume you realize.
How, then, if we see Luke dragging Vader towards a ship, Lando flying the Falcon out of the Death Star, which then explodes, but we see neither of them escape, then Leia tells Han that Luke survived, then cut to endtitles?

Or, if you find it significant that Luke is the protagonist, Luke pulls Vader to the ship. We see Lando destroy the main reactor of the Death Star, then he and Wedge rush to the exit, but we just see Luke escaping with the exploding Death Star in the background - we don't know if Lando or Wedge survived, and we see nothing of what Han and Leia experienced on Endor after Luke left. That's similar, because Luke - like the Exile - is the main character, and we see nothing of what happens to his friends. And that Han and Leia were successful can be assumed as a matter of course - just as Remote's success or failure can - since the Death Star could not have been destroyed if they did not succeed.

Would either of those be satisfying and "complete"?


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Last edited by Jediphile; 09-12-2006 at 10:01 AM.
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Old 09-12-2006, 12:48 PM   #87
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Well I was reading through this thread, and just after all I decieded to register just because of it.

Mostly, the two of you going back and forth at each other over OPINIONS is just pushing it too far. You are more than welcome to say well, I think the game was not finished, or I think the game was finished, according to these examples.

There are strong arguements for either side. The voice and script in the files. The comments that it was not just lucasarts changing the release time for the game. There was stuff in the game that was left out, removed, or changed. You guys NEED to agree on that, and stop trying to be so petty.

When I finished the game, It felt like a sort of empty ending. I felt like It was when I landed on the star forge planet and the group was killed/joined me depending on side was left out. Like the big silence before the storm, only their was no storm.

It felt deflated.

Am I wrong? Maybe, maybe not. Does that mean people should berate me because thats how I felt? Should I go on and on because someone feels the game was complete? Of course not. The game was released, we played it. We enjoyed it or not.

Here's to KotoR III having a bit more flashy ending.
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Old 09-15-2006, 11:22 AM   #88
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There's a difference between leaving the odd bit to the imagination, and leaving a pivotal piece of the climax out.

Also, as Mac has stated, Chris Avellone himself has stated that the reason for the cutting of M4-78, the Droid Factory and the endscenes was time.

Even if this weren't the case, the ending is still humdrum at best. All you do is kill things for about an hour. It gets repetitive and dull.



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Old 09-15-2006, 12:01 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by StormBeard
Mostly, the two of you going back and forth at each other over OPINIONS is just pushing it too far. You are more than welcome to say well, I think the game was not finished, or I think the game was finished, according to these examples.

There are strong arguements for either side. The voice and script in the files. The comments that it was not just lucasarts changing the release time for the game. There was stuff in the game that was left out, removed, or changed. You guys NEED to agree on that, and stop trying to be so petty.
One post and already you've lost your way...

Don't get me wrong, I agree with most of what you're trying to say, but consider this for a moment - would you like it if someone suggested you were petty for defending your position? Would MacLeodGR? Would I?

So if I choose to be insulted and ignore all your arguments, you've now given me ample opportunity to do so, since I can choose rather to defend my position and spend all my time and effort to dismiss your accusation of me being petty. Whether I will do so or not is my determination to make. I don't NEED to agree on anything, if I don't want to.

Basically, by inferring petty feelings on my behalf (and MacLeodGR's, too, but I can't speak for him), you trigger an unkind response with almost complete certainty. This is not what you want to do. I can tell that it is not what you're aiming for with your comments here. Yet it is the reaction you're likely to get, unless both MacLeodGR and I can rise above the namecalling and consider your actual arguments. And if we do that, it will be to our own credit and not yours. Entering a topic by immediately calling other people petty does not form a sound basis for a meaningful discussion IMHO, since it is then already well on its way to a flamefest.

Still, I will stay with my position that simply say that I think the game is cut. Nothing I've seen has changed my mind on the subject. The real problem in this topic is that MacLeodGR is judging my arguments to be wrong just because he doesn't agree with them. He has a right to his opinion, but he has not been arguing opinions, and he has stated that the game is finished as a matter of fact without providing evidence to support that claim, while I have questioned this and also brought evidence to support that position. Of course, that evidence can be questioned. I'm not denying that. But I don't see why MacLeodGR's interpretation of that evidence should be considered any more valid that mine or anyone else's.

But, of course, the matter is arguable. If there was conclusive evidence either way, then there would be no discussion. What irks me the wrong way is when people basically argue that because there is no definite evidence that proves the game was unfinished - since LA won't give it to us and Obsidian can't - then it must be finished. No, because there is no evidence to prove that it was finished either. So it becomes a matter open to interpretation, and I'm scarcely the only one who feels it's unfinished - that's why I provided links to Gamespy's resident cynic, who has far better credentials than I do for evaluating this matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StormBeard
When I finished the game, It felt like a sort of empty ending. I felt like It was when I landed on the star forge planet and the group was killed/joined me depending on side was left out. Like the big silence before the storm, only their was no storm.

It felt deflated.

Am I wrong? Maybe, maybe not. Does that mean people should berate me because thats how I felt? Should I go on and on because someone feels the game was complete? Of course not. The game was released, we played it. We enjoyed it or not.

Here's to KotoR III having a bit more flashy ending.
Yes, that's pretty much how I felt as well. I suppose I got the strongest notion of an imcomplete game and plot when I met with the masters on Dantooine, and after finishing the game felt that everything before that point had been great, while everything after it felt - as you say - deflated.

TSL is a great game. I love the plot. But I only found that out by participating in discussion on the cut content and the exploring it myself. It's not that the cut content exists that makes the game incomplete to me. No, it's that I felt the plot took a huge turn to the left at Dantooine and left many of the plots hanging without any resolution to them at all. TSL is a plot-driven game, as are many RPGs. It's not just a boring wander through the graphics and baddies. If I just wanted an action game, where I hack 'n slash my way through the hordes of monsters, then I'd play a FPS. But I wanted something else. I wanted drama as well as action. Towards the end, TSL only gave me the latter...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth InSidious
There's a difference between leaving the odd bit to the imagination, and leaving a pivotal piece of the climax out.

Also, as Mac has stated, Chris Avellone himself has stated that the reason for the cutting of M4-78, the Droid Factory and the endscenes was time.
No doubt about that. The big question is why the team ran out of time? My point has been that LA changed the deadline against Obsidian's wishes, only Obsidian could not say or do anything about it, since TSL was their first game, and they had no weight in the industry at the time. Hence I pointed to the changed release date - as per the first movie, which says the game woule be out in febuary for BOTH Xbox and pc - and Gamespy's resident cynic saying that LA is notorious for pushing deadlines. To me this paints a clear picture of what happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth InSidious
Even if this weren't the case, the ending is still humdrum at best. All you do is kill things for about an hour. It gets repetitive and dull.
Quite.


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Old 09-15-2006, 07:14 PM   #90
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How, then, if we see Luke dragging Vader towards a ship, Lando flying the Falcon out of the Death Star, which then explodes, but we see neither of them escape, then Leia tells Han that Luke survived, then cut to endtitles?
Different situation, different time. You can't apply the end of RotJ to the middle of KotOR.

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Old 09-16-2006, 11:48 AM   #91
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I think Jediphile and Emporor Emperor Devon will have to agree to disagree, cause this isn't gonna be worked out with words. Though this thread really does show both sides of the arguement in a really good way. I like the way its going, but as has been said, it's all opinions, and nothing's cast in stone.

@Devon: I like how you changed your avatar back. much better.


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Old 09-16-2006, 01:10 PM   #92
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I think Jediphile and Emporor Devon
Emporor Devon? Who is this Emporor you speak of?

I'n not trying to convince Jediphile of anything. I just consider debating a fun activity.

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@Devon: I like how you changed your avatar back. much better.
I agree. The fact that I and not Jae am the Dark Ruler Person of the Sith is included in my profile.


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Old 09-16-2006, 01:16 PM   #93
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My post has been edited to change the overlook of spelling your unimportant username incorrectly.

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Old 09-16-2006, 01:24 PM   #94
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I was joking, goldberry.


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Old 09-16-2006, 01:35 PM   #95
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Yes, I'm aware of that lol

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Old 09-16-2006, 01:49 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by goldberry
I think Jediphile and Emporor Emperor Devon will have to agree to disagree, cause this isn't gonna be worked out with words. Though this thread really does show both sides of the arguement in a really good way. I like the way its going, but as has been said, it's all opinions, and nothing's cast in stone.

@Devon: I like how you changed your avatar back. much better.
One of the greatest things about visiting forums is that you can debate. In some cases, we will never truely know what had occured. We could speculate until our faces are blue, but eventually we will all need some oxygen. Lol...

When people come into this thread, they will read its contents, and then they will draw their own conclusion. We did get pretty thick in explinations, the jabs, and everything else.

I am sure there is an article hidden out there, which Obsidian had explained what occured. It would be interesting to find something that was not another site's speculation, and more in the lines of Obsidian's perspective. This would be wishfull thinking. We will never have 100% proof about why certain things were 'accidently left in' or 'accidently taken out' or 'deleted for inconsistancy' or... You can fill in the blanks.

All I know is that 'not all' of the 'cut content' was removed due to time restraints. Editting stuff is essential, so a product can be polished into finality. Did Obsidian omit certain items accidently, or did they forget to remove them? Why? Were the pieces removed for inconsistancy? Story change? Etc... To say that 'all the cut content was removed due to time restraints' is very illogical.

What I did prove is that the possibilities, that led to some of the information to be cut, are practically endless. We will never truely know why each and every piece was omitted or accidently left in.

If you are interested in this subject, I suggest you read all the posts in this thread. Even though there are gabs taken here or there, each of us have stated some interesting revelations.




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Old 09-16-2006, 03:31 PM   #97
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Forgive me, but I find your reasoning flawed. Of course LA will not admit to it. Do you ever hear Microsoft admit that any of their programs have flaws? People rarely admit to their mistakes if they can get away with it, and in business that is virtually guaranteed, since the company can be held accountable for any admission of a flawed product.

Obsidian is a young company of experienced people in the business. But it's still a young company. They cannot stand up to a giant like LA. Sure, they could moan about the treatment they received from LA, but in that case they'll never work on KotOR3 or any other LA product again. That is not a very sound marketing strategy.

So of course you're not going to hear any admission from the companies involved, at least not officially. If that is what you demand, then you're asking the impossible. But you can open your eyes and use common sense, if you're willing. But it sounds to me you don't want to look at this matter objectively and refuse to accept anything but cold hard facts. Those might exist, but frankly I have better things to do that spend time looking for them. Besides, even if I found them, I doubt you would accept them.
QFE While Obsidian Entertainment had experience as being made up of former Black Isle Studios. All they had to do was to look at the demise of Troika Games. Troika Games had made three good if buggy RPGs. For the most part all they did was complain about the Publishers instead of fixing their games.


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Old 09-16-2006, 04:41 PM   #98
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QFE While Obsidian Entertainment had experience as being made up of former Black Isle Studios. All they had to do was to look at the demise of Troika Games. Troika Games had made three good if buggy RPGs. For the most part all they did was complain about the Publishers instead of fixing their games.
De'ja'vu



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Old 09-16-2006, 04:53 PM   #99
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De'ja'vu
No De'ja'vu. Black Isle Studios went under because of the the mismanagement/stupidity of their owner/publisher Interplay.


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Old 09-17-2006, 04:03 AM   #100
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QFE While Obsidian Entertainment had experience as being made up of former Black Isle Studios. All they had to do was to look at the demise of Troika Games. Troika Games had made three good if buggy RPGs. For the most part all they did was complain about the Publishers instead of fixing their games.
De'ja'vu! MacLeodGR is so right on this one

EDIT: So what we're forseeing is that Lucasarts will drag the gamemakers under. I think Bioware escaped just in time, but maybe we'll be waving bye bye to Obsidian. It's all jokes guys, I have no real feelings on this subject one way or the other. It's a game, it's here, I play it, I mod it.

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Old 09-17-2006, 06:00 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Darth InSidious
Also, as Mac has stated, Chris Avellone himself has stated that the reason for the cutting of M4-78, the Droid Factory and the endscenes was time.
I was the one who said that, not Mac. I posted the quote first and provided the link. Well, I suppose it doesn't really matter, but Mac has said that:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
Well, that answers the question as to why the Droid Planet and Malacore were not completed. But, it does not answer why the HK-Factory was removed.
He believes that there 'could' be other reasons apart from 'time-constraints' as to why the Droid Factory (the HK-Factory) was removed from the game. But you see, the HK-Factory must have been removed because of 'time-constraints', why else would it be cut? You don't cut something out as important as that unless you have no other choice. I understand that some things were cut out because they weren't necessary or important (a scrapped idea), but 'if' anyone was to claim that the HK-Factory was not important to the context of the game plotwise then they are a fool, because the HK-Factory was important to the plot (for reasons Jediphile has already stated). To argue otherwise would be ridiclious. If the HK-Factory was something that Obsidian 'wanted' to cut and weren't 'forced' to cut due to time-constraints, then they would of removed the whole entire HK-50 plot from the game.

I do agree that M4-78 wasn't necessary and so could be safely cut from the game (although it was originally intended to be important, but Emperor Devon has already covered that point).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
The original poster of the Chris Avellon quote took it out of context, and I placed it back into context. As you can see, the quote speaks volumes when you place it back into its original form. Leaving out words can change a quote's or a scentence's meaning. Removing the quote from a paragraph can also change the meaning. I just placed it back into context. It is not my fault that your proof back fired.
Just how did I place that quote out of context? Can you back that claim of yours up?

Chris Avellone says "In the end, I do wish there had been more time and I wished I had had more time to work on the end game, and that was my fault. We did get a lot accomplished in the time we had, and I probably should have cut another planet (the droid planet got the axe). I still think it's a good RPG, we probably should have just made it shorter".

Either way, even if Obsidian managed the 'short' amount of time they were given badly (but that was due to the release date of the game being pushed forward) 'time' is still the reason why important cut content essential to the plot development of the game had to be cut. Hence the reason why Chris Avellone said that "I do wish there had been more time and I wished I had had more time to work on the end game." The 'and that was my fault' part refers to the fact that he believes he 'probably should have cut another planet' so he could work on the end-game, the HK-Factory and other important content that is missing from the game. I fail to see how I've taken the quote out of context...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
I would ask the same thing...
You said...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
If I may make a point, Jediphile, some of the cut content contradicts what was in the game. It's entirely possible it was cut because of that, or because Obisidan thought that the Exile's party members killing each other was too dark. It's very likely that some of the content, such as M4-78, was cut due to time constraints. (It does take a while to make a planet.) However, no one can provide any solid proof as to why some things were not in the game.
I admit that this quote suggests that you read my post, however Chris Avellone has said himself that he wished he had more time to work on the end game. That implies that Obsidian had no choice but to cut things such as the 'Atton vs. Sion' fight or the 'Visas vs. Handmaiden' fight. Even if time-constraints wasn't the reason why things such as the Exile's party members killing each other was cut (however Chris Avellone's quote and the dialogue files suggest otherwise) they would have added something else in instead of the Exile's companions just magically disappearing towards the end of the game, as if they didn't exist.

Besides, the Exile's companions killing each other isn't too dark, it makes sense plotwise since the 'Handmaiden and Visas' clearly dislike each other and 'Atton and Disciple' aren't exactly great mates either too. Besides, the dialogue in the game between Atton/Disciple and Visas/Handmaiden IMO sets the stage for a confrontation/battle between them towards the end of the game...

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Old 09-17-2006, 11:09 AM   #102
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^^^^
You keep taking things out of context. You either leave out words in your quotes, or you remove them from the whole paragraph.

Clearly in post#65: http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost....7&postcount=65 you underlined only a portion of the sentence that you quoted. Instead of using the entire sentence, you took words out of their context. Read the sentence in its entire state.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect Post #65
In the end, I do wish there had been more time and I wished I had had more time to work on the end game, and that was my fault. We did get a lot accomplished in the time we had, and I probably should have cut another planet (the droid planet got the axe). I still think it's a good RPG, we probably should have just made it shorter.[/B]
In post#73:
http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost....0&postcount=73

I pointed out where you have errored. When you make an argument, use the entire context to make your case. By not considering the whole sentence, you changed the meaning of what he said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Avellone
In the end, I do wish there had been more time and I wished I had had more time to work on the end game, and that was my fault. We did get a lot accomplished in the time we had, and I probably should have cut another planet (the droid planet got the axe). I still think it's a good RPG, we probably should have just made it shorter.
http://www.rpgcodex.com/content.php?id=125

He is blamming himself for not 'giving himself' enough time to complete the project. This was not a time restraint issue. This was his inability to manage the job, so he can fit it into the time given. I underlined the section that you left out of the evidence you were using. Consider the whole sentence, and the surrounding paragraphs. See post #73 for full context.

If this was a time restraint issue, he would have said something similar to:
Lucas Arts cut our deadline down. Since we were still months away from completion, we were not able to get around the time retraint (deadline) we were given.

If you read the paragraph again, you will notice he also mentions that he was thinking about removing another planet. Why? Well, he didn't manage his workload to fit the deadline.

This was a job management issue - or - Obsidian was very optimistic, so they agreed on a new deadline. Either way, this was a management issue.

Chris Avellone agreed to the deadlines.
Chris Avellone didn't adjust the workload to fit the deadlines
Chris Avellone didn't manage the job in a way, which would have allowed them to fix story gaps and edits.

This is clearly a manager with inexperience.

Truthfully, I would have fired him for not managing the job right.

ADD EDIT::
Time is in the equation, but it is not the main reason why KotOR II is suffering from problems. It is all about 'the manager', and his inability to manage the job right.



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Old 09-18-2006, 06:41 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
^^^^
You keep taking things out of context. You either leave out words in your quotes, or you remove them from the whole paragraph.

You underlined only a portion of the sentence that you quoted. Instead of using the entire sentence, you took words out of their context. Read the sentence in its entire state.

I pointed out where you have errored. When you make an argument, use the entire context to make your case. By not considering the whole sentence, you changed the meaning of what he said.
Your contradicting yourself there, you said "When you make an argument, use the entire context to make your case. By not considering the whole sentence, you changed the meaning of what he said."

So if what I'm doing is 'taking the quote out of context' as you claim, then why did you do the same thing? You did this on post 73#: In the end, I do wish there had been more time and I wished I had had more time to work on the end game, and that was my fault. We did get a lot accomplished in the time we had, and I probably should have cut another planet (the droid planet got the axe). I still think it's a good RPG, we probably should have just made it shorter.

So if you ask me to 'use the entire context to make my case' next time in an arguement instead of 'not considering the whole sentence', I suggest you do the same. I did not ignore the whole sentence, I was merely pointing out what I thought were the most relevant parts of that sentence to support my case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
http://www.rpgcodex.com/content.php?id=125

He is blamming himself for not 'giving himself' enough time to complete the project. This was not a time restraint issue. This was his inability to manage the job, so he can fit it into the time given. I underlined the section that you left out of the evidence you were using. Consider the whole sentence, and the surrounding paragraphs. See post #73 for full context.

If this was a time restraint issue, he would have said something similar to:
Lucas Arts cut our deadline down. Since we were still months away from completion, we were not able to get around the time retraint (deadline) we were given.

If you read the paragraph again, you will notice he also mentions that he was thinking about removing another planet. Why? Well, he didn't manage his workload to fit the deadline.

This was a job management issue - or - Obsidian was very optimistic, so they agreed on a new deadline. Either way, this was a management issue.

Chris Avellone agreed to the deadlines.
Chris Avellone didn't adjust the workload to fit the deadlines
Chris Avellone didn't manage the job in a way, which would have allowed them to fix story gaps and edits.

This is clearly a manager with inexperience.

Truthfully, I would have fired him for not managing the job right.

ADD EDIT::
Time is in the equation, but it is not the main reason why KotOR II is suffering from problems. It is all about 'the manager', and his inability to manage the job right.
Lets examine Chris Avellone's quote as a whole here...

In the end, I do wish there had been more time and I wished I had had more time to work on the end game, and that was my fault. We did get a lot accomplished in the time we had, and I probably should have cut another planet (the droid planet got the axe). I still think it's a good RPG, we probably should have just made it shorter.

The way I interpret this quote is that Chris Avellone 'wished' (which suggests that he's referring to LA's deadline here, think about it) he had more time to work on the end game.

As I've said before, the 'and that was my fault' part refers to the fact that 'he probably should have cut another planet' so he could finish the end game and add in the important content such as the HK-Factory to complete the game from a plot perspective.

Hence the term 'we probably should have just made it shorter'. Your claim of 'bad management' is a claim that cannot be supported by facts, it is pure speculation.

Because Chris Avellone and Obsidian didn't have a choice. LA dictates the KotOR franchise, not Obsidian or BioWare. They had to agree to the deadline given. That's why Chris Avellone said 'In the end, I do wish there had been more time'. That doesn't sound like what someone who agrees to a deadline would say. It doesn't look like Obsidian had much say on the matter judging by Chris's comments.

This also proves that LA dictates this issue, because it's clear that Chris wanted more time, but he never got it did he? Why? Because LA is in charge of the release date of the game, not Obsidian.

Besides, they were forced to change their workload because of LA's greedy impatience, of course it was going to effect the final outcome of the game, so it really is a 'time constraint' issue.

They never knew the deadline was going to be pushed forward, they only found out fairly late in development, so you can't really blame Obsidian or Chris Avellone for so called 'not giving themselves enough time'. Time is the main reason why KotOR III is suffering from problems, because if it wasn't for LA pushing the deadline forward, Obsidian would have had more 'time' to complete the game. If they didn't finish the game plot-wise by February (the original release date, which was what Obsidian's original workload schedule was based on) only then, would it have been an issue of 'bad management'.
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Old 09-18-2006, 07:11 AM   #104
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So - OE were unrealistic and didn't manage to fit LA's deadlines, right?

OE were unrealistic, and impractical about how much they could do.

Ergo: OE were impractical.

Ergo: OE did not manage their time correctly.

Ergo: OE mismanaged the creation of the game.



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Old 09-18-2006, 09:45 AM   #105
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Different situation, different time. You can't apply the end of RotJ to the middle of KotOR.
Okay. We'll look at ESB instead then. Fair enough

Now we see Luke arrive on Cloud City. The last we ever see of his friends is when Leia shouts to him it's a trap and R2 then gets "lost" when a door closes just behind Luke.

Then we follow Luke as he fights Vader, we see him lose, get his hand chopped off, hearing Vader is his father, etc. He jumps into the shaft and ends up clinging for dear life beneath Cloud City. No escape from Leia and friends etc. Luke just speaks out to Ben, the Millennium Falcon magically turns up beneath him, he jumps onto it, then flies off to safety in it - roll credits. No escape from Vader and or conversations at the end.

Actually that's far closer to KotOR2, since it is very similar to the deux-ex-machine appearance of the Ebon Hawk at the LS end of the game. The major difference is that Luke loses the fight where the Exile wins it, but both are left stranded in a deathtrap situation, where they must be saved by their friends at the last second and totally out of the blue.

Is that satisfying?


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Old 09-18-2006, 11:09 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth InSidious
So - OE were unrealistic and didn't manage to fit LA's deadlines, right?

OE were unrealistic, and impractical about how much they could do.

Ergo: OE were impractical.

Ergo: OE did not manage their time correctly.

Ergo: OE mismanaged the creation of the game.
If you ignore what 'The Architect' had done, and read it for what it is. That is the sense that I am getting. To exclued any phrase of sentence would change the intent of what Chris is saying. 'The Architect' is too busy not reading everything, and he is refusing to follow the rules of grammar.

(IMO) OE just didn't manage the job well.

OE could have been too confident, and may have bit off more than they could chew. (<----I was speculating) This happens to all of us from time to time. I would be more surpirsed if they did got the job done 100% right. Since this was their first venture as a new company, I can understand issues that may have occured behind clossed doors.

I am talking about the game's state overall now. I am only focusing on the quote, and not on a specific piece that was removed.

I allready made my other case earlier.

------------
ADDED EDIT::
I didn't say anything specific, earlier, about why the HK-Factory was removed. I really don't know why this was removed, and I have not seen any evidence that would send me into one specific direction.



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Old 09-18-2006, 11:38 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
If you ignore what 'The Architect' had done, and read it for what it is. That is the sense that I am getting. To exclued any phrase of sentence would change the intent of what Chris is saying. 'The Architect' is too busy not reading everything, and he is refusing to follow the rules of grammar.
You continue to postulate that The Architect misquotes while failing to point out where he did so. He is quite right to point out that you do just the same thing as he does yourself. And he is not wrong just because he emphasizes other things than you do - you do NOT have a monopoly on the truth or what is "the correct interpretation".

And to mention grammer is very poor taste. I could easily do the same in your case, just as someone could for me. It is simply irrelevant to the discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
(IMO) OE just didn't manage the job well.
That is your right, as long as you acknowledge that your opinion isn't any better than anyone else's. I'll freely admit that mine isn't either (which is why I provide arguments and links to support why - you know what they say about opinions...)


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Old 09-19-2006, 08:50 AM   #108
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Oh? Do you even know the reason for why that planet was cut? Is time restrictions the only reason why something will be removed?
good point prime.
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Old 09-19-2006, 11:22 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
Oh? Do you even know the reason for why that planet was cut? Is time restrictions the only reason why something will be removed?
good point prime.
It's not necessarily the only one, but it very often is. Cutting stuff because it "doesn't fit" or "disrupts the flow" can be necessary, but doing it also means that you've wasted valuable time and money producing something that ends up on the cutting floor anyway.

There are certainly times when it is essential, but the question is when that is. It happens all the time for movies - hence all those lovely deleted scenes on dvds (I love getting a peek at what the director decided to cut and why), but I'd say it happens less frequently in games than in movies, because in movies, you have to consider the flow of the story - which is not chosen by the consumer - how it fits with background music, how good (or bad) the performances available are, etc. In games this is different because you're not stuck with the performances (you can just reprogram it), the pace is the player's choice and not the developer's, and the background music has to reflect that.

There are many, many examples of how stuff had to be cut from movies, even if it's brilliant. Take a look at "Gladiator", where they cut the plotting scene with Derek Jacobi and Connie Nielsen, which I think is the best scene of the movie, because it revealed the female lead's intentions too soon in the plot. Or M. Night Shyamalan, who had to cut his original ending for "The Sixth Sense" (check the dvd). Some of the cut scenes in "Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl" are hilarious, but had to go for pacing reasons, since the movie was already running long.

Do we see the same sort of cut stuff in games? No, not usually. Why? Because they're far easier to plot and prepare for. You don't need to take extra scenes, because the location won't be available next week, so most frequently, the end plot is the one that was planned by the story writers, since cutting stuff means wasted efforts for all.

The question is why stuff was cut from TSL? Was it for pacing reasons? Was it because it was "running long" (doubtful in any game, methinks)? KotOR1 had cut stuff too, but that material seems to have been mostly redundant to the plot, whereas much cut content in TSL was plot relevant, some of it even essential IMHO. So the reasons for some parts cut from the game does not seem to be for the sake of pacing or redundancy...


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Old 09-19-2006, 01:15 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
It's not necessarily the only one, but it very often is. Cutting stuff because it "doesn't fit" or "disrupts the flow" can be necessary, but doing it also means that you've wasted valuable time and money producing something that ends up on the cutting floor anyway.
But that happens all the time in software development of any kind. There is always stuff that was decided upon in the initial design that was changed or scrapped in the later development stages because it didn't work or line up with the other aspects as they changed. Actually, I can't think of a large project I have worked on where that didn't happen. It isn't always because of time constraints, although that certainly happens a lot as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
There are certainly times when it is essential, but the question is when that is. It happens all the time for movies - hence all those lovely deleted scenes on dvds (I love getting a peek at what the director decided to cut and why), but I'd say it happens less frequently in games than in movies,
Actually, I'd say that it happens just as much or more for games, because not only is stuff potentially removed for story reasons, but technical reasons as well. Remember when they talked about having removable hoods in TSL? Didn't make it in because it was harder technically than they originally thought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
because in movies, you have to consider the flow of the story - which is not chosen by the consumer - how it fits with background music, how good (or bad) the performances available are, etc. In games this is different because you're not stuck with the performances (you can just reprogram it), the pace is the player's choice and not the developer's, and the background music has to reflect that.
But isn't that harder? The movie guy can pace the story and make it good because he controls everything and has all the input. The game developer (especially an RPG dev) has to make a story that changes its flow based on how the player plays. He doesn't just have one plot path to consider like the movie guy, but multiple potential plots that all have to link together and make sense. I think that's harder.

They still have to worry about pace, but have to make that pace work in multiple scenarios. With all that to consider, I think it would be more likely that story elements would get cut to make everything work in the end. For example, because they may have decided that the overall droid plotline was not working for all story paths that it should be removed. That may have made the droid planet unnecessary.

Such a dynamic story would be harder to plan out in the beginning than a single movie plot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Do we see the same sort of cut stuff in games? No, not usually. Why? Because they're far easier to plot and prepare for. You don't need to take extra scenes, because the location won't be available next week, so most frequently, the end plot is the one that was planned by the story writers, since cutting stuff means wasted efforts for all.
Again, there are always cases where stuff you thought would work story-wise or technically may not work when you actually see it in its final form. In RPG games, this issue is made worse when you have to look at all plot paths.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
The question is why stuff was cut from TSL? Was it for pacing reasons? Was it because it was "running long" (doubtful in any game, methinks)?
Probably all the of the above. Different things can be cut for different reasons.

That is really my only point. Some People in general around here seem to think that every little thing that was cut was due to time restrictions. I'm just saying that is not necessarily the case and there are lots of other valid reasons why stuff might be cut. We just don't know in each specific case.

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Old 09-19-2006, 07:06 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Okay. We'll look at ESB instead then. Fair enough

Now we see Luke arrive on Cloud City. The last we ever see of his friends is when Leia shouts to him it's a trap and R2 then gets "lost" when a door closes just behind Luke. {snip}
Not quite. I think a better portrayal would be a DS version. Luke gives into the dark side, and defeats Vader. Instead of his hand, Vader's body falls into the abyss. Luke knows that he's defeated a powerful enemy, but the Emperor, who is the greater threat to his power, is still out there. With the knowledge of what the third movie will be about, the credits roll. Is that a better comparison?


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Old 09-20-2006, 10:30 PM   #112
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You continue to postulate that The Architect misquotes while failing to point out where he did so. He is quite right to point out that you do just the same thing as he does yourself. And he is not wrong just because he emphasizes other things than you do - you do NOT have a monopoly on the truth or what is "the correct interpretation".

And to mention grammer is very poor taste. I could easily do the same in your case, just as someone could for me. It is simply irrelevant to the discussion.

That is your right, as long as you acknowledge that your opinion isn't any better than anyone else's. I'll freely admit that mine isn't either (which is why I provide arguments and links to support why - you know what they say about opinions...)
Thanks Jediphile

As Jediphile has said, you continue to claim that I misquoted, but you cannot support that fact, as you have failed to point out where I did so. I don't find this to be polite at all. Stop accusing me of something I haven't done!

If what I've done (highliting a particular part of a quote by Chris Avellone) is taking a quote 'out of context', then as I've mentioned on my previous post, you are contradicting yourself, as you have done the same thing (as I've pointed out in my previous post).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
If you ignore what 'The Architect' had done, and read it for what it is. That is the sense that I am getting. To exclued any phrase of sentence would change the intent of what Chris is saying. 'The Architect' is too busy not reading everything, and he is refusing to follow the rules of grammar.
What? You've accused me of 'taking a quote out of context' and now your accusing me of 'excluding the phrase of a sentence'. What did I exclude? I never left out, ignored, nor deleted anything from Chris's quote. Stop falsely accusing me of things I haven't done.

In case you hadn't noticed, in my previous post, I actually went over Chris's entire quote. I addressed the points you highlighted out before too, so I fail to see what I've done wrong. You still have not responded to the points I made in my previous post regarding my full interpretation of Chris's quote either.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
(IMO) OE just didn't manage the job well.

OE could have been too confident, and may have bit off more than they could chew. (<----I was speculating) This happens to all of us from time to time. I would be more surpirsed if they did got the job done 100% right. Since this was their first venture as a new company, I can understand issues that may have occured behind clossed doors.

I am talking about the game's state overall now. I am only focusing on the quote, and not on a specific piece that was removed.

I allready made my other case earlier.
Well, I'm glad your acknowledging the fact that your speculating (as I am myself). I still think it's unfair to assume that Obsidian managed the job badly, as if it was entirely their fault, and not LA's (why? Because you cannot prove if 'bad management' was the reason why the game ended up the way it did, none of us can prove that. Obsidian 'may' be partly at fault, but we don't know for sure).

I still place the blame on LA myself, as Chris has already said he wished he had more time, but LA never gave any more time to Obsidian. LA could have given Obsidian extra time to finish the game from a plot perspective, but they didn't. How anyone would expect Obsidian to complete the game in the short time they were given is beyond me.

We'll never know if Obsidian would of completed the game properly by February 2005 (the originally intended release date). If they still hadn't of completed the game by then, then yes it would of been their fault. But to accuse Obsidian of 'bad management' is unfair, and cannot be supported by facts.

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ADDED EDIT::
I didn't say anything specific, earlier, about why the HK-Factory was removed. I really don't know why this was removed, and I have not seen any evidence that would send me into one specific direction.
Although it can't be proven why the HK-Factory was removed, use your common sense. The HK-Factory must have been removed for time-constraints; as it's actually quite major from a plot perspective, to argue otherwise would be folly.

GO-TO and the HK's were strongly bonded to this story. I'd find it unlikely Obsidian could have removed it the way they did for any other reason than having to cut down quickly. If they had time and it was a creative decision the ties to the plot would have been adjusted accordingly, it wasn't. This suggests that they did not have a choice, because of time-constraints.
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Old 09-20-2006, 10:34 PM   #113
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Quote:
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This suggests that they did not have a choice, because of time-constraints.
Even though it could only take a few minutes to implement?


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Old 09-20-2006, 10:52 PM   #114
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Even though it could only take a few minutes to implement?
Really? Are you sure? How do you know how long it would of taken for them to implement? I find it hard to believe it would have only taken them a few minutes. Even so, that does not explain why everything else associated with the 'HK-50' plot was removed from the game.

If your suggesting that time-constraints was not the reason why the HK-Factory was removed because it would of only taken them a few minutes to implement, then surely if it was for creative reasons, they would have taken out everything else associated with the 'HK-50' plot.

If it only took a few minutes to implement the HK-Factory, then wouldn't it only take a few minutes (or something along the lines of a short amount of time) to remove everything else associated with the 'HK-50' plot? This is what I don't understand.
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Old 09-20-2006, 11:08 PM   #115
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Really? Are you sure? How do you know how long it would of taken for them to implement?
Perhaps because I've made dialogue mods before, and implemented that scene in my game once?

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If it only took a few minutes to implement the HK-Factory,
The HK factory is far tool large to have been done in minutes. That I think might have been due to time restraints.


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Old 09-20-2006, 11:46 PM   #116
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Perhaps because I've made dialogue mods before, and implemented that scene in my game once?

The HK factory is far tool large to have been done in minutes. That I think might have been due to time restraints.
Oh, I thought you were suggesting before that the HK-Factory could of been implemented in a few minutes, my mistake. So, what scene are you talking about exactly?
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Old 09-20-2006, 11:54 PM   #117
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The Goto/Remote scene.


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Old 09-21-2006, 03:04 AM   #118
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^^^^

The GOTO/Remote scene - meaning the one where HK-47 appears - could probably be done easily, I agree.

But the problem with it is that you need to have the HK factory in the game to establish the plot context, or you have no idea where all those HK-51 units suddenly came from. So it always seemed obvious to me that since the HK factory had to go - presumably due to the sooner deadline - then the scene we talk about here had to be cut as well. Otherwise you have a highly "deux ex machina"-scene, where HK-47 and his brethren suddenly spring in from nowhere to save the plot, and that's pretty bad storytelling. I can't fault Chris Avellone for not wanting that, since I wouldn't either. I mean, given the choice between very poor plot and "loose end"-plot, which would you choose? And why did Obsidian end up in that situation anyway? MacLeodGR seems to think that it was due to their own mismanagement, but to me it's obvious that cutting two months from the deadline will obviously result in this sort of thing, especially in this case, where the schedule was already pushed beyond belief. Considering the amount of time Obsidian ended up really having, I find it to be a remarkable achievement that they were able to complete as much as they did. And when I think of what TSL might have been, had Obsidian been given the original deadline by LA, I clench my fists...


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Old 09-21-2006, 03:15 AM   #119
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We can't say. But I never found the HK plot to be that important to the game. All you get are three attacks and a bit of dialogue. When finding the Jedi Masters, wondering the Sith were and where Revan was the first time I played the game, I completely overlooked the factory.


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Old 09-24-2006, 08:43 AM   #120
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^^^^

Well, duh - we all "overlooked" it since it's cut from the game

My point is that the while the Remote vs. GOTO scene, the subsequent HK-47 vs. GOTO scene cannot be, since it would require the HK factory first to establish the context. Otherwise the HK-51s spring right out of nowhere with utter convenience, which is always disappointing plotwise. Clearly Obsidian was aware of that and so cut it. As you say yourself, why else did they cut it, when it would have taken very little time to do? Because it would have required that the HK factory was also finished, and that would have taken a lot more time on a schedule that LA had just cut by two months. It all seems rather obvious to me...


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