lfnetwork.com mark read register faq members calendar

Thread: God answers prayers
Thread Tools Display Modes
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Old 08-15-2006, 02:23 AM   #41
SkinWalker
Anthropologist
 
SkinWalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Give critical thought a chance
Posts: 2,709
LFN Staff Member 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
whenever religion is portrayed in fiction it is almost universally Christianity, not Judaism or Islam or some other religion.
Not by me. I'm unbiased in my rejection of superstition. Furthermore, Christianity and Islam are evolutionary descendants of Judaism. Both accept Abraham. Indeed, the first 5 books of the Christian bible are the Septuagint, a.k.a. the Torah (the Jewish bible).

But the Hindu religion is just as silly, with 1 god pretending to be 18. The Navajo religion with its sand paintings that heal the sick and witches (called yenaldlooshi, a.k.a. skinwalkers) that change into coyotes and wolves are fantastical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
What of Christmas and Easter, are these to be rejected or do you still keep them just so you can get presents?
Santa day and Bunny Day! I love those holidays. Both of these have origins that are anything but Christian, by the way. But, regardless of their pagan origins of winter and spring celebrations, they have evolved into rich cultural traditions that no longer belong exclusively to Christianity, but to the societies they are celebrated in.


A Hot Cup of Joe - My Blog

Not finding an intellectual challenge in the Swamp? Try the Senate Chambers!

Evolution and How We Know It's Right - Post your thoughts!
Debate Strategies & Tactics - Polish your online debate skills and offer your own advice
SkinWalker is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-15-2006, 07:59 AM   #42
toms
v0.9
 
toms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: uk swamp
Posts: 3,490
Any studies that have proven any benefit for prayer (to a god) have also been duplicated with studies of meditation. They have also been duplicated in a number of different religions.

Since meditation is internal, and doesn't involve any plea to a higher being.. if it is equally effective as prayer to a higher being that seriously implies that any benefits are internal, and not a result of "god answering your prayers".

Furthermore, there are just as many accounts of "miracles" for every other religion. From stories of people healed by Indian medicine men, to stories of Muslims healed on their religious pilgrimages. So if we accept these anecdotal stories as evidence that "god answers prayers" then you must also accept that OTHER gods answer prayers.. and therefore htere is more than one god.



Playing: Link to the Past, Astroboy, Kario Kart, Mario World (Micro) KOTOR 2: Sith Lords (Xbox) Morrowind (PC)
toms is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-15-2006, 02:26 PM   #43
TK-8252
Get Cloned.
 
TK-8252's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 5,850
Quote:
Originally Posted by toms
Furthermore, there are just as many accounts of "miracles" for every other religion. From stories of people healed by Indian medicine men, to stories of Muslims healed on their religious pilgrimages. So if we accept these anecdotal stories as evidence that "god answers prayers" then you must also accept that OTHER gods answer prayers.. and therefore htere is more than one god.
One of the Ten Commandments says that thou shall have no other gods before me... which seems to imply that the old Jews actually DID believe in more than one god. Just that the Abrahamic god was superior to them all.

Then there's the story of how Pharaoh's magicians were able to perform the same magic that Moses could with the help of his god... so it seems that they indeed believed in more than one god.
TK-8252 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-15-2006, 06:08 PM   #44
toms
v0.9
 
toms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: uk swamp
Posts: 3,490
Pharaoh wasn't jewish though. (just to be picky )

To be honest, I don't really care if prayer works or not.. if it works because its a placebo or because one of the gods answers.. prayer is one of the few religious issues that DOESN'T generally impact negatively on the rest of us.

If people want to believe in prayer and it makes them feel better then let them. As long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else it is fine with me.

there is however no evidence whatsoever it works.. so its entirely down to your beliefs.



Playing: Link to the Past, Astroboy, Kario Kart, Mario World (Micro) KOTOR 2: Sith Lords (Xbox) Morrowind (PC)
toms is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-15-2006, 11:52 PM   #45
Nancy Allen``
Banned
 
Nancy Allen``'s Avatar
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,948
Yeah, why should it matter if people believe in God? Is it an affront to atheists or something?
Nancy Allen`` is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-15-2006, 11:54 PM   #46
TK-8252
Get Cloned.
 
TK-8252's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 5,850
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
Yeah, why should it matter if people believe in God? Is it an affront to atheists or something?
It doesn't matter. It really doesn't. If you want to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster then more power to you.

It's when all three branches of government get taken over by fundamentalist Christianity is when it bothers freethinkers...
TK-8252 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-16-2006, 10:51 AM   #47
toms
v0.9
 
toms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: uk swamp
Posts: 3,490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
Yeah, why should it matter if people believe in God? Is it an affront to atheists or something?
Well, it was you that started the thread.. and i'm happy to debate about it. However its not something i have a problem with.

there ARE a number of religous issues i do have a problem with, but you need to look in other threads for those.

Putting aside all the evidence and assuming that people DO actually get responses, and it isn't just wishful thinking.. how do we know who it is that is responding? It could be "God", it could be Allah, or Visshnu, or the Thunder God. It could be a voice in your head. It could be some form of psychic connection. It could be traces from an alternate realm. It could be people from the future. It could be an all powerful space alien. It could be something we haven't even thought of yet. There really is no way to know.

Even if a giant flaming head appears in the sky tomorrow an proclaims itself to be god, there is still the chance it could be another being of much greater power than our own. We would have no way of knowing and would simply have to take it's word for it. Or not.



Playing: Link to the Past, Astroboy, Kario Kart, Mario World (Micro) KOTOR 2: Sith Lords (Xbox) Morrowind (PC)
toms is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-16-2006, 04:35 PM   #48
Nancy Allen``
Banned
 
Nancy Allen``'s Avatar
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,948
By that I mean for some it seems like God is some great evil and regardless of what is presented they reject it, angrily. It's like trying to convince someone who believes Bush is Hitler of all the good he's done.
Nancy Allen`` is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-16-2006, 05:12 PM   #49
Windu Chi
Banned
 
Windu Chi's Avatar
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Getting revenge on that traitor, Anakin.
Posts: 882
Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
By that I mean for some it seems like God is some great evil and regardless of what is presented they reject it, angrily. It's like trying to convince someone who believes Bush is Hitler of all the good he's done.
What good have that fool Bush have done? What the hell are you talking about?

I guest you mean the good of putting religion back in control again like the power they had in the past.

Last edited by windu6; 08-17-2006 at 03:33 AM.
Windu Chi is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-16-2006, 05:17 PM   #50
Nancy Allen``
Banned
 
Nancy Allen``'s Avatar
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,948
Did I say Bush had done any good? No, for all you know I might think something like 'ZOMG BUSH IS HITLER KILL THE **** KILL THE **** KILL THE **** KILL THE **** KILL THE **** KILL THE **** KILL THE **** KILL THE ****.'
Nancy Allen`` is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-17-2006, 03:15 AM   #51
SkinWalker
Anthropologist
 
SkinWalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Give critical thought a chance
Posts: 2,709
LFN Staff Member 
Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
What good have that fool Bush have done? What the hell are you talking about?
I think Nancy was making an analogy. Please try to read the entire thread, let it soak in a bit, then compose yourself if you wish to post here. Your second sentence above is best described as impertinent when compared and contrasted with the one below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
I guest you mean the good or puting religion in control again like the power they had in the past.
I truly would like to respond to that, but, try as I might, I could not discern the context nor the syntax. My apologies.


A Hot Cup of Joe - My Blog

Not finding an intellectual challenge in the Swamp? Try the Senate Chambers!

Evolution and How We Know It's Right - Post your thoughts!
Debate Strategies & Tactics - Polish your online debate skills and offer your own advice
SkinWalker is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-17-2006, 03:24 AM   #52
SkinWalker
Anthropologist
 
SkinWalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Give critical thought a chance
Posts: 2,709
LFN Staff Member 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen
Yeah, why should it matter if people believe in God? Is it an affront to atheists or something?
By that I mean for some it seems like God is some great evil and regardless of what is presented they reject it, angrily. It's like trying to convince someone who believes Bush is Hitler of all the good he's done.
For some, undoubtedly. However, for many (myself included) there is no belief that "god is some great evil" or any anger directed at any god. This would presume that a god exists to characterize with the anthropomorphic attribute of evil or to direct anger at.

Instead, many like myself simply become upset at the attempts to codify religious dogma and belief on others. We also find it stimulating and satisfying to debate the philosophical positions of various religious adherents. So when someone begins a thread with an unreasoned and illogical claim that has no evidential basis, it then becomes both a duty and a pleasure to refute it. It doesn't matter if people believe in gods. It matters, however, if they use their god to impose upon others or make public claims of their god's prowess that they cannot demonstrate.

There's no anger involved in my willingness to debunk religious claims. It's my pleasure.


A Hot Cup of Joe - My Blog

Not finding an intellectual challenge in the Swamp? Try the Senate Chambers!

Evolution and How We Know It's Right - Post your thoughts!
Debate Strategies & Tactics - Polish your online debate skills and offer your own advice
SkinWalker is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-17-2006, 03:39 AM   #53
Windu Chi
Banned
 
Windu Chi's Avatar
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Getting revenge on that traitor, Anakin.
Posts: 882
Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker
I think Nancy was making an analogy. Please try to read the entire thread, let it soak in a bit, then compose yourself if you wish to post here. Your second sentence above is best described as impertinent when compared and contrasted with the one below.



I truly would like to respond to that, but, try as I might, I could not discern the context nor the syntax. My apologies.
You like to be sarcastic huh? What you think you don't make any grammar or spelling mistakes?
Windu Chi is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-17-2006, 04:14 AM   #54
SkinWalker
Anthropologist
 
SkinWalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Give critical thought a chance
Posts: 2,709
LFN Staff Member 
Very few. And I've the humility to beg forgiveness from even you when I do.

Still, I've no idea what message you were attempting to convey was in the passage I so "ruthlessly" critiqued. Perhaps that is the line that should be drawn in the metaphorical sand when it comes to criticizing the grammatical errors of others: when there is no ability to understand. If English isn't your first or even second language, please accept my apologies in advance. Your diction is commendable for someone who has adopted English as a tertiary language skill.

Also, if you weren't as critical of others, you might find that others might not be so quick to criticize you.

Heat, kitchens, and all.


A Hot Cup of Joe - My Blog

Not finding an intellectual challenge in the Swamp? Try the Senate Chambers!

Evolution and How We Know It's Right - Post your thoughts!
Debate Strategies & Tactics - Polish your online debate skills and offer your own advice
SkinWalker is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-17-2006, 04:22 AM   #55
Nancy Allen``
Banned
 
Nancy Allen``'s Avatar
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,948
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker
It doesn't matter if people believe in gods. It matters, however, if they use their god to impose upon others or make public claims of their god's prowess that they cannot demonstrate.
The same with anything else in the world. Without just cause no one should for any reason force their views or beliefs on others. What would be just cause? Mace Windu, or Yoda, trying to stop Palpatine would count. A real world example would be the efforts in Afghanistan, or the first Iraq war, the Gulf war where Saddam Hussein was pushed out of Kuwait.
Nancy Allen`` is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-17-2006, 04:28 AM   #56
Dagobahn Eagle
First Strike Tester
 
Dagobahn Eagle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Bergen, Norway
Posts: 3,513
Current Game: First Strike
No, because there were logical reasons to drive Saddam out of Kuwait. There are logical reasons to re-estabilish the sovereign state of Kurdistan. There are logical reasons to invade Afghanistan.

However, "it's God's will" is not a good reason. God cannot be demonstrated, and hence I might as well use the will of the Troll King living in the mountains behind my house as justification for my actions. Or the Wyrm Queen in the fjord. Or Ođinn, King of Gods.

Dagobahn Eagle is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-17-2006, 04:31 AM   #57
SkinWalker
Anthropologist
 
SkinWalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Give critical thought a chance
Posts: 2,709
LFN Staff Member 
See, now I took Nancy's last post as an agreement between she and I. Am I wrong, Nancy, that you agree religion shouldn't be forced upon others and that religious belief has no place in the decision making process of public policy? Shouldn't public activities remain secular?


A Hot Cup of Joe - My Blog

Not finding an intellectual challenge in the Swamp? Try the Senate Chambers!

Evolution and How We Know It's Right - Post your thoughts!
Debate Strategies & Tactics - Polish your online debate skills and offer your own advice
SkinWalker is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-17-2006, 04:38 AM   #58
Nancy Allen``
Banned
 
Nancy Allen``'s Avatar
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,948
That's exactly what I'm saying. To justify using the Christian God to justify something like killing homosexuals is just as wrong as people killing themselves and others in the name of Allah. Logic is not the issue, is it logical to follow something that is not concrete in evidence, or ignore something that millions of people believe is right? For that matter, where is the logic in following one religion that seems supernatural and not another that is equally, or more so, farfetched? Logic is irrevelent, it's the use of this belief that is the current issue. To use it to force your will upon others, regardless of your belief, is wrong to anyone with the basic concept of good and evil no matter what belief they have.
Nancy Allen`` is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-17-2006, 05:08 AM   #59
Windu Chi
Banned
 
Windu Chi's Avatar
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Getting revenge on that traitor, Anakin.
Posts: 882
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
The same with anything else in the world. Without just cause no one should for any reason force their views or beliefs on others. What would be just cause? Mace Windu, or Yoda, trying to stop Palpatine would count. A real world example would be the efforts in Afghanistan, or the first Iraq war, the Gulf war where Saddam Hussein was pushed out of Kuwait.
You know what would be a good thing to have if it is real of course, is the Force as a occupier of all the world's current religions.

The Force have no preference; good or evil is a point of view not a choice of one or the other.

With the Force as the dominant religion there won't be no suicide bombers killing themselves for GOD Allah or whoever.

There is no god in the Force. The Force is neutral, thats what makes the

Force a good choice for a replacement to the current world's religions.

Also having the Force as a religion will give great benifits like duh Force powers

You won't get that from any of the world's dull trouble making religions.

What you just get from most of the current world's religion, is worship or suffer for eternity in those religions respective hells.

I bet you it will be alot of followers of the Force if it is real.
Windu Chi is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-17-2006, 08:09 AM   #60
Nancy Allen``
Banned
 
Nancy Allen``'s Avatar
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,948
Yeah, I'm sure it would, especially with it's Star Wars roots and Jedi like Aayla. Those aside I think it's a great idea, in that as far as the Force is concerned what is considered evil is just as valid as good, depending on the context.
Nancy Allen`` is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-17-2006, 11:28 AM   #61
Writer
Not switching to DTV
 
Writer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: just past the pot o' gold
Posts: 7,439
Current Game: TrackMania Nations
Roleplayer Contest winner - Fan Fiction 
Sorry to pull the discussion back so far, but I wanted to be able to answer the questions here...



Quote:
Originally Posted by toms
I assume that by Surveys you mean the scientific studies mentioned earlier?
In which case i don't understand your logic. The results of a study of a few thousand people are definately more accurate than the annecdotal evidence of one or two stories.
I agree with you here, actually. I'm just saying that there are more than 6 billion humans on the planet. Considering that, a few thousand people may be more accurate than one or two, but you still can't expect a study of that size to be as accurate as most people like to pretend it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by toms
What you are basically saying is that god's answers change nothing. Or they change such a minute number of things that asking him to change anything is pointless. That kind of makes sense... because if there is a god (and no-one is saying we can prove that there isn't only that there is no evidence either way) then you'd have to figue he'd planned everything out that way for a reason.. so your uninformed pleas wouldn't change much.
Hmm... I hadn't thought of it that way, actually. It just makes sens to me that, if God really is the supernatural being we've all been told he is (as in, all-powerful, all-knowing, exists outside of time, ect.), then he must know what's best for us more than we do. Think of it like a parent-child relationship. The kid wants to have a bunch of candy. Why? It tastes good. The kid can't yet understand that, if he's going to have a bunch of candy, it will probably make him sick. So the parent has to understand it and tell the kid, 'no'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by toms
Though, if, as you say, god is unlikely to ever change his plan simply because someone asks him... and the scientists back you up on that... then it does rather make nancy's initial post invalid... and make the whole process of prayer rather pointless too.
Well, that's not quite what I meant. I could give you a few examples of how prayer has changed lives, but you're just going to tell me that it's only a couple of people and therefore inaccurate on average, so I'll just allow us to skip over that.

If you believe the Bible (particularly the Old Testament), then there are several examples of God listening to the words of His people. I said 'if' because it seems like the majority of us here don't. At any rate, you have Abraham, who asked God to spare Sodom and Gomorrah because that's where Lot was living; God spared the cities long enough for Lot to get out.

Isaac prayed that God would lead a woman to the well he sat at who'd be willing to give him a drink of the water; there came Rebekah (alright, this is a cheezy example...). There were a couple of times where God threatened to destroy the Israelites and Moses pleaded with him to change his mind.

If I had a Bible handy, I could list more. But my understanding is that prayer isn’t meant to capture God’s attention. After all, doesn’t he know everything already? My understanding of prayer is more that we need to say it than that He needs to hear it. It can be comforting to get your problems out on the table… even if God decides to answer ‘no’.


Mom tells me I need brain food... but if writing ain't that, I don't know what is!

My work in progress:
Hidden Histories: The Galaxy Hacker

Have a read, give a review, yah?
Writer is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-17-2006, 12:39 PM   #62
ET Warrior
PhD in horribleness
 
ET Warrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Evil League of Evil
Posts: 9,405
LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildjedi
. It can be comforting to get your problems out on the table… even if God decides to answer ‘no’.
In this case, wouldn't it be better to discuss your problems with another person? One who will actually talk to you and likely make an active attempt to make you feel better? As opposed to some silent possibly-existant deity whose answer MIGHT come in the form of some ambiguous 'sign' of you getting hit by a car?

The very idea of most any deity that people pray to is that they already have a master plan for everything, and it doesn't really matter what you ask for, or what you want, what is already planned out is planned out and is going to happen.

Doesn't it seem awfully pretentious to think that an all-knowing, all-powerful being is going to change it's timeless plan for everything just because it's currently inconveniencing you?



ET Warrior is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-17-2006, 09:58 PM   #63
Dagobahn Eagle
First Strike Tester
 
Dagobahn Eagle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Bergen, Norway
Posts: 3,513
Current Game: First Strike
Quote:
It can be comforting to get your problems out on the table…
Definetly. Pray, rant, write, draw, paint, express your issues in any way you want. It's a good coping skill.

Of course, it's an even better coping skill to talk to someone who really cares and who listens and says the right things. They can be awfully hard to come by, sadly.


Quote:
The very idea of most any deity that people pray to is that they already have a master plan for everything, and it doesn't really matter what you ask for, or what you want, what is already planned out is planned out and is going to happen.

Doesn't it seem awfully pretentious to think that an all-knowing, all-powerful being is going to change it's timeless plan for everything just because it's currently inconveniencing you?
I never thought of it that way. Well put.

Dagobahn Eagle is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-19-2006, 01:27 AM   #64
Windu Chi
Banned
 
Windu Chi's Avatar
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Getting revenge on that traitor, Anakin.
Posts: 882
Angry

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
In this case, wouldn't it be better to discuss your problems with another person? One who will actually talk to you and likely make an active attempt to make you feel better? As opposed to some silent possibly-existant deity whose answer MIGHT come in the form of some ambiguous 'sign' of you getting hit by a car?

The very idea of most any deity that people pray to is that they already have a master plan for everything, and it doesn't really matter what you ask for, or what you want, what is already planned out is planned out and is going to happen.

Doesn't it seem awfully pretentious to think that an all-knowing, all-powerful being is going to change it's timeless plan for everything just because it's currently inconveniencing you?
Damn right! You hit it right on the nail ET Warrior.

God only answers prayers only for those ones who kisses it ass the most.

God surely don't give a f**k for everyone on Earth or in this universe.

As thoses lying Christians whould have you believe in.

He surely also did'nt give f**k for those 11 million souls who died in the death camps in humiliating, disgusting and unacceptable circumstances.

I just wanted to remind you all and those delusional Christians about that visible fact again.

To show you all the damning evidence of God's failures of answersing people prayers; 11 million and still counting.
Windu Chi is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-19-2006, 01:45 AM   #65
Nancy Allen``
Banned
 
Nancy Allen``'s Avatar
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,948
It sounds like you have a real problem with the concept of God and Christians, almost as if you have something personal against them.

Last edited by Nancy Allen``; 08-19-2006 at 01:46 AM. Reason: Whoops, mixed up my words
Nancy Allen`` is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-19-2006, 02:32 AM   #66
Windu Chi
Banned
 
Windu Chi's Avatar
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Getting revenge on that traitor, Anakin.
Posts: 882
Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
It sounds like you have a real problem with the concept of God and Christians, almost as if you have something personal against them.
I just want all Christians to admit that God fail those victims in the death camps and rest who was murdered in Europe in World War II.

Also I want all those Christians EVERY where to admit God is'nt: perfect,caring, forgiving and is just a f**K up same as the rest of us.

Yes I do hate God serverely and infinitely, but can't hate Christians because my family are Christians.

But I won't ever care about that f**ker ever again.
Windu Chi is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-19-2006, 02:48 AM   #67
SkinWalker
Anthropologist
 
SkinWalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Give critical thought a chance
Posts: 2,709
LFN Staff Member 
The irony here is that Windu6 hasn't said he doesn't believe in God or that there is a Christian God. On the contrary, he appears to accept that a god exists but that this god is flawed. One who was predisposed to psychoanalyze this might hypothesize that Windu6 had a significant negative event or loss in his life to which he blames the Christian God he was raised to believe in.

I'm not predisposed to psychoanalyze, so I'll refrain from making that hypothesis.


A Hot Cup of Joe - My Blog

Not finding an intellectual challenge in the Swamp? Try the Senate Chambers!

Evolution and How We Know It's Right - Post your thoughts!
Debate Strategies & Tactics - Polish your online debate skills and offer your own advice
SkinWalker is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-19-2006, 02:50 AM   #68
Nancy Allen``
Banned
 
Nancy Allen``'s Avatar
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,948
I think yould would have an easier time wooing the likes of Padme and Aayla. If people who follow religion choose to build a few hopes around some unseen, unearthly entity and it brings out the good in them surely that cannot be a bad thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
But I won't ever care about that f**ker ever again.
Ever again? I'm no psychologist but is there something with you and God you want to share?
Nancy Allen`` is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-19-2006, 03:42 AM   #69
Totenkopf
English spoken in What
 
Totenkopf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: What?
Posts: 4,787
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Member The Walking Carpets Guild Member Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker
The irony here is that Windu6 hasn't said he doesn't believe in God or that there is a Christian God. On the contrary, he appears to accept that a god exists but that this god is flawed. One who was predisposed to psychoanalyze this might hypothesize that Windu6 had a significant negative event or loss in his life to which he blames the Christian God he was raised to believe in.

I'm not predisposed to psychoanalyze, so I'll refrain from making that hypothesis.

Kind of like saying..."it goes w/o saying, but I'll say it anyway"

But seriously, exactly what would constitute proof of God's (or any other supernatural being for that matter) existence that you (atheists and non-believers in general) wouldn't reject out of hand as some kind of mass hypnosis or parlor trick? It seems to me that it would be very difficult to prove the genuine existence of God, especially as we become more and more technically sophisticated. Many of you "christian bashers" seem to be as closed minded as the people you deride when it comes to this topic.
Totenkopf is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-19-2006, 08:46 AM   #70
SkinWalker
Anthropologist
 
SkinWalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Give critical thought a chance
Posts: 2,709
LFN Staff Member 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
But seriously, exactly what would constitute proof of God's (or any other supernatural being for that matter) existence that you (atheists and non-believers in general) wouldn't reject out of hand as some kind of mass hypnosis or parlor trick? It seems to me that it would be very difficult to prove the genuine existence of God, especially as we become more and more technically sophisticated. Many of you "christian bashers" seem to be as closed minded as the people you deride when it comes to this topic.
I'm an atheist, but an agnostic one. I'm willing to revise my position with evidence presented and in the case of a god it would only take a demonstration of omnipotence/omnipresence. Nothing too difficult for a god. As an agnostic-atheist, I recognize that, while I see no reason to accept the gods of man just because some Bronze and Iron age believers wrote down their myths, I also recognize there is no way for me to state that no god can exist since I'm unable to test this hypothesis. My mind is very open -far more so than the deluded who go on with their lives worshiping bronze age mythology.


A Hot Cup of Joe - My Blog

Not finding an intellectual challenge in the Swamp? Try the Senate Chambers!

Evolution and How We Know It's Right - Post your thoughts!
Debate Strategies & Tactics - Polish your online debate skills and offer your own advice
SkinWalker is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-19-2006, 09:02 AM   #71
Totenkopf
English spoken in What
 
Totenkopf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: What?
Posts: 4,787
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Member The Walking Carpets Guild Member Forum Veteran 
Skin, you're a walking oxymoron. You do realize that atheists deny the existance of God while agnostics merely question it. It seems to me that it would be more accurate to just admit that you're an agnostic. While I accept that there most likely is a god, as the alternative is depressingly nihilistic, I also recognize that it would be damned difficult to prove it in the emprical sense. My brother majored in philosophy and theology but even the argument that denying God exists is proof of his existance struck me as weak. It only proved that the concept of God existed and little else. Still, I'm waiting for you to explain exactly what "God" must do to prove he's more than just bronze age mythology.
Totenkopf is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-19-2006, 09:20 AM   #72
Mace MacLeod
Food-based rocker
 
Mace MacLeod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Somewhere else. Probably.
Posts: 1,096
Current Game: World of Warcraft
Contest winner - Fan Fiction 
There actually have been scientific studies done on the therapeutic benefits of prayers in hospital settings which show improved recovery rates and more positive overall emotional states for surgical patients who prayed versus ones who didn't, but unfortunately I can't link to them as they're in scientific journals which require membership in university libraries. I've run into this problem before in backing up claims I've made (and would like to make) in various online debates.

Anyway, here's the gist of the argument for prayer: It's not that the deity prayed to necessarily reaches down and intercedes directly, it's that the individual doing the praying or spiritual meditation or scrying or what-have-you benefits from calming themselves and focussing their minds. The interactions between mind and body are still very poorly understood, and it's thought that the act of prayer performed by someone who truly believes provides an emotional state which is more conducive to the healing process.


Be considerate to others or I will bite your torso and give you a disease!
Mace MacLeod is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-19-2006, 09:22 AM   #73
SkinWalker
Anthropologist
 
SkinWalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Give critical thought a chance
Posts: 2,709
LFN Staff Member 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
Skin, you're a walking oxymoron. You do realize that atheists deny the existance of God while agnostics merely question it.
Years after I came to the conclusion that I should refer to myself as "agnostic atheist," I discovered the philosophical writings of a theologian, Robert Flint, who said,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Flint
"If a man has failed to find any good reason for believing that there is a God, it is perfectly natural and rational that he should not believe that there is a God; and if so, he is an atheist... if he goes farther, and, after an investigation into the nature and reach of human knowledge, ending in the conclusion that the existence of God is incapable of proof, cease to believe in it on the ground that he cannot know it to be true, he is an agnostic and also an atheist - an agnostic-atheist - an atheist because an agnostic... while, then, it is erroneous to identify agnosticism and atheism, it is equally erroneous so to separate them as if the one were exclusive of the other..."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
Still, I'm waiting for you to explain exactly what "God" must do to prove he's more than just bronze age mythology.
Surely, this would be an easy task for one that is alleged to be omnipotent/omnipresent: he could raise a relative from the dead; stop the planet from revolving for a day (he did in the OT); etc. Obviously an omnipotent being would know precisely what revelation it would take to convince me of its divinity. Wouldn't you agree?


A Hot Cup of Joe - My Blog

Not finding an intellectual challenge in the Swamp? Try the Senate Chambers!

Evolution and How We Know It's Right - Post your thoughts!
Debate Strategies & Tactics - Polish your online debate skills and offer your own advice
SkinWalker is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-19-2006, 09:30 AM   #74
SkinWalker
Anthropologist
 
SkinWalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Give critical thought a chance
Posts: 2,709
LFN Staff Member 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mace MacLeod
There actually have been scientific studies done on the therapeutic benefits of prayers in hospital settings which show improved recovery rates and more positive overall emotional states for surgical patients who prayed versus ones who didn't, but unfortunately I can't link to them as they're in scientific journals which require membership in university libraries. I've run into this problem before in backing up claims I've made (and would like to make) in various online debates.
You could provide as much of a citation as possible. Others are able to access the journals and see the source of the claims. Most public libraries have access to a variety of journals and databases for journals. These are studies I'd like to see if you have the authors, titles, and journals. I'm aware of several recent studies that demonstrate the little to zero effect of prayer and will happily provide a source later... gotta run.


A Hot Cup of Joe - My Blog

Not finding an intellectual challenge in the Swamp? Try the Senate Chambers!

Evolution and How We Know It's Right - Post your thoughts!
Debate Strategies & Tactics - Polish your online debate skills and offer your own advice
SkinWalker is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-19-2006, 09:31 AM   #75
Totenkopf
English spoken in What
 
Totenkopf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: What?
Posts: 4,787
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Member The Walking Carpets Guild Member Forum Veteran 
Seems to me Mr. Flint is engaging in linguistic gymnastics.
Totenkopf is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-19-2006, 04:54 PM   #76
igyman
Tension!
 
igyman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: White City
Posts: 3,412
Current Game: Trine Enchanted Edition (PC)
Forum Veteran Helpful! Contest winner - Fan Fiction 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
He prayed for him to be able to let go of sin and his computer was taken away, it stopped working. Again seeking God he prayed for it to work, not being able to cope with it broken, and the computer was fixed.
You're kidding me, right? How is this proof of the existence of god?
His PC could have broken down for a number of reasons, most likely viruses, or even power supply faliure (it happened to a friend of mine once).
Likewise, his PC did not fix itself miraculously, he must have mentioned it to his parents a number of times and they took it to the PC repair service of the company they bought it from, or they simply bought new parts (assuming they knew what exactly was the problem).

igyman is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-19-2006, 08:41 PM   #77
Mace MacLeod
Food-based rocker
 
Mace MacLeod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Somewhere else. Probably.
Posts: 1,096
Current Game: World of Warcraft
Contest winner - Fan Fiction 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker
You could provide as much of a citation as possible. Others are able to access the journals and see the source of the claims. Most public libraries have access to a variety of journals and databases for journals. These are studies I'd like to see if you have the authors, titles, and journals. I'm aware of several recent studies that demonstrate the little to zero effect of prayer and will happily provide a source later... gotta run.
Okay, well, I was kind of wondering just how formal to make this here. Really, I know I've seen some studies and the most I was able to bring up was a couple of abstracts online and I wasn't sure if that would make much difference to the overall debate. I mean, are people really going to log in and read the articles...? It's late, I'm a teensy bit drunk, so maybe I'm being snippy here. I'll go around tomorrow and see if I can back up what I said with some studies but really I'm just too lazy atm. Besides, it's not as if anyone seems like they're teetering on the edge of changing their minds either way. But really, pretty much the entirity of the findings were summed up (tersely) in the second paragraph of the post you quoted, ShinWalker.

And while I'm on the subject, I'd like to address Nancy Allen``.

I'm going to assume that Adam is someone in your immediate family (brother? son? please tell me if I'm wrong). You and your family have made up your minds that Adam's situation was the result of prayer. Now, you might be right. I'll say that right off. I'm willing to grant that prayer might well have been the factor that improved his circumstances. You could certainly be right, and you are more than entitled to your beliefs. But please understand that the fact that you and your family prayed for this outcome does not constitute proof of prayer in action. Faith and belief simply do not equate to empirical proof, and there's just no way around that. You say that Adam is drawn to figures and characters that show religious beliefs--well, look at who he lives with. He's (again, correct me if I'm wrong) being raised by people who obviously have very strong religious convictions, and he's picking up on that. If the adults around him are willing to accept healing by prayer, then clearly they have some very deep and overt beliefs. Adam is absorbing/has absorbed the mores of the people in his environment. Kids do that.

Yet More:

No, they didn't find Noah's Ark. People have said they've seen bits and pieces and even the entire hull in Mt. Ararat. I know, I saw a Discovery Channel special on it. That was right before the documentary on people who have seen the Loch Ness Monster and Ogopogo.


Be considerate to others or I will bite your torso and give you a disease!
Mace MacLeod is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-19-2006, 10:02 PM   #78
ET Warrior
PhD in horribleness
 
ET Warrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Evil League of Evil
Posts: 9,405
LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mace MacLeod
There actually have been scientific studies done on the therapeutic benefits of prayers in hospital settings which show improved recovery rates and more positive overall emotional states for surgical patients who prayed versus ones who didn't
Astounding, as I've found scientific studies showing that prayer doesn't help sick people get better.
http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2...05-prayer.html
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/ar...after_surgery/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Second Article
While many studies have suggested that praying for oneself may reduce stress, research into praying for others who may not even know they are the subject of prayers has been much more controversial. Several studies that claimed to show a benefit have been criticized as deeply flawed. And several of the most recent findings have found no benefit.



ET Warrior is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-19-2006, 11:25 PM   #79
Nancy Allen``
Banned
 
Nancy Allen``'s Avatar
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,948
Quote:
Originally Posted by igyman
You're kidding me, right? How is this proof of the existence of god?
The computer stopped working after he prayed to God about whether or not it was bad for him, and started working again with no repairs when he prayed about it. Coupled with everything else that has happened (job, car, better health, being able to move on from traumatic experiances, ect) since turning to religion then it seems a strong indication that there is a God. It might not be true, but seeing these things for myself I find it hard to argue against it.

Especially when I see people trying to force others into disbelief of God the way Islamic extremists do with their own form of militant religion.
Nancy Allen`` is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-19-2006, 11:32 PM   #80
SkinWalker
Anthropologist
 
SkinWalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Give critical thought a chance
Posts: 2,709
LFN Staff Member 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
Seems to me Mr. Flint is engaging in linguistic gymnastics
We all see your riposte but not the reasoned rebuttal. You call it "linquistic gymnastics" but have provided no definitions or reasoned discourse on why you find the term "agnostic atheist" to be an oxymoron. What this demonstrates is a lack of understanding of the terms at hand.

It is common that people believe 'agnosticism' refers to the notion that a god is 'doubted,' but what it actually refers to is not god but knowledge. The intent of the word -from Huxley- was to describe one who accepts that there is certain knowledge that is beyond the ability of man. Supernatural knowledge is such (2001).

I agree with Huxley when he says, "The agnostic, according to his view, is a person who says he has no means of attaining a scientific knowledge of the unseen world or of the future [...] I cannot think this description happy, either in form or substance, but for the present it may pass (1889)."

I also agree with Betrand Russell (1947) when he says, "As a philosopher, if I were speaking to a purely philosophic audience I should say that I ought to describe myself as an Agnostic, because I do not think that there is a conclusive argument by which one prove that there is not a God.
On the other hand, if I am to convey the right impression to the ordinary man in the street I think I ought to say that I am an Atheist, because when I say that I cannot prove that there is not a God, I ought to add equally that I cannot prove that there are not the Homeric gods.
"

Ingersoll (1896) was another that described the agnostic-atheist point of view quite well: "Is there a supernatural power -- an arbitrary mind -- an enthroned God -- a supreme will that sways the tides and currents of the world -- to which all causes bow? I do not deny. I do not know -- but I do not believe. I believe that the natural is supreme -- that from the infinite chain no link can be lost or broken -- that there is no supernatural power that can answer prayer -- no power that worship can persuade or change -- no power that cares for man."

Another passage that Huxley offered (1889) that I can easily agree with is: "In matters of the intellect, follow your reason as far as it will take you, without regard to any other consideration. And negatively: In matters of the intellect, do not pretend that conclusions are certain which are not demonstrated or demonstrable"

The term agnostic refers to knowledge. The term atheism refers to a lack of belief in a god or gods. The two are not mutually exclusive and are very compatible.

Sources and References:

Wikipedia entry "Agnostic-Atheism"
Atheist vs. Agnostic
Urban Dictionary
About Philosophy

Flint, Robert (1903). Agnosticism. Edinburgh: William Blackwood and Sons

Huxley, Thomas H (1889). Agnosticism. From Collected Essays of T.H. Huxley and found on the web at: http://aleph0.clarku.edu/huxley/CE5/Agn.html

Huxley, Thomas H (2001). Collected essays of T.H. Huxley Bristol: Thoemmes

Ingersoll, Robert G. (1896). Why I Am An Agnostic. From The Works of Robert G. Ingersoll, Dresden Memorial Edition, chp IV, pp 5-67. Found on the web at: http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/ingag.htm

Russell, Betrand (1947). Am I An Atheist Or An Agnostic? A Plea For Tolerance In The Face Of New Dogmas. Found on the web at: http://www.luminary.us/russell/atheist_agnostic.html


A Hot Cup of Joe - My Blog

Not finding an intellectual challenge in the Swamp? Try the Senate Chambers!

Evolution and How We Know It's Right - Post your thoughts!
Debate Strategies & Tactics - Polish your online debate skills and offer your own advice
SkinWalker is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Go Back   LucasForums > Network > JediKnight Series > Community > Senate Chambers > God answers prayers

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:32 AM.

LFNetwork, LLC ©2002-2011 - All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.