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Old 08-29-2006, 12:31 AM   #1
Tysyacha
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Tentative Theory on Traya (Spoilers, and LONG!)

Long ago, in a galaxy far, far away...

...there was a female Sith Lord named Darth Traya. She was
once a Jedi, as most Sith were, but after the Jedi Order cast
her out for teaching Revan (who had "fallen" according to their
standards and his breaking of the Jedi Code), she became Sith.

Over time, Traya (alias Kreia) saw flaws in the teachings of both
the Jedi and the Sith. On the one hand, she saw countless acts
of mercy and charity that she believed prevented their recipients
from standing on their own and growing stronger through their
struggles. On the other hand, she saw nothing but betrayal,
assassination, murder, and pointless violence (wanton slaughter,
a la HK-47's programming). She disapproved of both extremes.

Instead of blaming merely these teachings, however, Kreia blamed
the Force. She thought of it as an uncaring sort of semi-deity who
would sacrifice thousands of lives to maintain a sense of "balance",
whatever that meant. Kreia hated that the Force seemed to have
a will of its own, that it guided and/or controlled people's destinies.

So Kreia sought to kill the Force through causing "echoes", or
screams of pain and suffering that would resonate throughout
the galaxy. Wounds in the Force. One of these "echoes" existed
in the heart of the Jedi Exile. Since s/he had caused so many
deaths in the final battle of the Mandalorian Wars, the screams
of the wounded and slain made the Exile deaf to the Force.

Kreia rewarded the Exile with praise if s/he caused more "echoes"
on their journey together (e.g. leaving Jorran to the laigreks after
lying to him on Dantooine; telling the mercenaries to ship Vrook
off to Nar Shaddaa.) Through the Exile, Kreia hoped to wipe the
Force from the galaxy. The Exile was living proof, after all, that
life could exist without being sensitive in any way to the Force.

However, somewhere along her travels, it is my theory that
Kreia realized that if she achieved her goal of exterminating the
Force, then she would achieve what her enemy Nihilus had: the
death of all life. Here is why I believe this:

Kreia wanted to kill the Force and rid the galaxy of its influence/control.

However, Kreia also knew that all of life is touched by the Force.

Therefore, if she reached her goal through the Exile, then not only
would the Force die, but so would all of life. The Exile survived
because s/he cut himself or herself OFF from the Force by CHOICE.
Kreia realized that not all of life had this chance to make a choice.

So, knowing this, Kreia trained the Exile to feel the Force again
so that the Exile could defeat...

Darth Sion, who wanted to bring the galaxy HIS pain and suffering.

Darth Nihilus, who wanted to feed upon the galaxy to increase his
power, not knowing that he would eventually consume himself doing so.

And, last but not least...

HER.

Kreia, or Darth Traya, who had finally figured out that if she managed
to kill the Force, then all of life would have been just as doomed
as it would have been had Nihilus had his way. This, I believe, is
why Traya is so gracious in her defeat and says "Saved me? By
killing me here, you already have." She knew that there was no
way she could have been "redeemed" in the traditional way of
the Jedi. Her only other option was death, either by the Sith
or the Exile. She chose the Exile to teach, to fight, and to die by.

**********************************

Q: Why does Kreia teach the Exile to feel the Force again?

A: So that the Exile could defeat Sion, Nihilus, and herself (Kreia).
All 3 of them used the Force, and Kreia didn't want the Exile to
be "a thing of flesh and blood" against them, "too easily slain."

Q: Why does Kreia get so mad at Dark Side Exiles on Dantooine?

A: Kreia did not want the Exile to kill the Jedi Masters. She wanted
the Exile to find and gather the Masters so that SHE (Kreia) could
strip them of the Force. Dark Side Exiles, in killing the Masters,
deny Kreia her lifelong dream, and so they "fail" her in this way.

Q: If Kreia really DOESN'T want to kill the Force by the end of the
game, then why the heck does she say she does at Malachor V?

A: To "bait" the Exile into fighting her, and eventually killing her.
What Force-user could resist attacking someone who says
they want to kill the Force? Especially after all the Exile's
been through?

Q: How many times does the Exile get betrayed in TSL?

A: Twice, or three times, depending on your perspective:
--Once when the Jedi Masters gather to punish the Exile
--Once when Kreia reveals her true identity as a Sith Lord
--Once when the Jedi Order first cast out the Exile (debatable)

Q: Kreia doesn't want to die. Your theory is bantha-poodoo.

A: Was Kreia referring to Atris or to herself when she describes "a
creature of betrayals" as one of the Sith Lords who must be
defeated? If she was referring to Atris, I'm back to Square One.
However, if she was referring to herself, she has planted the
seed for the Exile to remember her words and try to defeat
her on Malachor V. I believe Kreia wanted this, ultimately.

And, thus, Kreia dies at peace, whether the Exile is Light or Dark Side.

May the Force be with you!
--Tysyacha
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Old 08-29-2006, 12:51 AM   #2
Emperor Devon
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Interesting theory. I think Kreia wanted to kill the Force, but not all life, since that would contradict herself. The Exile is proof someone can be dead to the Force, and I think she wanted everyone else to be dead to it. If they weren't strong enough to survive without it, they should die. But since she wanted the Force to die but couldn't live without it, she realized death was the only way to be free.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretooth
We will be great failures one day, you and I
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Old 08-29-2006, 01:30 AM   #3
Melly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Interesting theory. I think Kreia wanted to kill the Force, but not all life, since that would contradict herself. The Exile is proof someone can be dead to the Force, and I think she wanted everyone else to be dead to it. If they weren't strong enough to survive without it, they should die. But since she wanted the Force to die but couldn't live without it, she realized death was the only way to be free.
I agree with this. As it's also the reason she despises Sion, because, unlike the Exile, he didn't have the strength to let go of the Force. But I find the OP's theory interesting as well.


"They may not call you a Jedi anymore, but believe me you are. It's not the sort of thing you just stop being. You're stuck with it. Just like you're stuck being the General."
~Bao-Dur, The Sith Lords
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Old 10-10-2006, 03:59 PM   #4
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I also have to wonder, to mix game universes, whether she's like FFX's Seymour - including the not quite alive part (A true Sith never dies, after all). To end the galaxy's pain by its destruction, the rending asunder of all bonds and returning to primordial chaos. She says to Diciple that she does not seek the end of all life...at least not until all can realize she's right and the Force is wrong. And if things like the Vong can survive with marginal ties to the Force, then they are stronger and therefore worthy by her definition.


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Old 10-10-2006, 05:10 PM   #5
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To me Kreia is basically the Star Wars incarnation of Ahab from Melville's "Moby Dick". Ahab is at war with god, just as Kreia is at war with the force.

However, I think there is a distinction between the force and what Kreia hates.

Note that when Disciple asks her why she has done what she has done, her answer is this:

Kreia: "I? Do you think I seek the death of all living things? There is no victory in such things. I do not want to win our war like this, little Jedi. When I win, I wish it to be because I was right, my teachings true."

However, at the of the game, her philosophies are revealed:

Kreia: "It is said that the Force has a will, it has a destiny for us all. I wield it, but it uses us all, and that is abhorrent to me. Because I hate the Force. I hate that it seems to have a will, that it would control us to achieve some measure of balance, when countless lives are lost.But in you... I see the potential to see the Force die, to turn away from its will. And that is what pleases me.You are beautiful to me, exile. A dead spot in the Force, an emptiness in which its will might be denied. I use it as I would use a poison, and in the hopes of understanding it, I will learn the way to kill it.But perhaps these are the excuses of an old woman who has grown to rely on a thing she despises."

Kreia sees a distinction between the will of the force and the force itself. The latter is life in all its diversity, and she does not hate it. It's the balancing will of the force that she hates and wants to destroy. In essence, she wants to kill her god, but not the creation of her god. Like Ahab, she is at war with god.


"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia

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Old 11-05-2006, 11:52 AM   #6
SilentScope001
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A possible theory:

Kreia taught Exile to learn how to connect to the Force, to broadcast the Echoes, and to create more Force Bonds with beings, so that the echoes can be transmitted and the force be stolen. Then, Kreia would kill off the Exile, and the echoes become so large that the Force would not be heard anymore. Kreia would win...

But then why did she not go through with the plan? Because it involved one thing that would be despiable to her...

The Exile must die.

Before, she saw Exile as a tool, but as she watch her, she realized that she actually like her, and like how she does not follow the will, and does her own choices. How she is free and powerful. And, she loves her like a Master loves her Apperciante. So, she couldn't do it. She couldn't kill her Apperciante.

When she said, "I would let the galaxy die for you" I wonder if she just did. She decided to condemn the whole galaxy to endless massacures, endless wars, and manlipuation by the Force...because she is unwilling to let the teachings that The Exile taught herself...to die. Besides, The Exile was strong enough to withstand the echoes once, Atris said, but others may not. A person may fall to the Dark Side after hearing the echoes, or may die off. She may fear that if she "destroyed the Force", by killing off the Exile, she may have "taught the wrong lessons".

EDIT:
Quote:
Q: Why does Kreia get so mad at Dark Side Exiles on Dantooine?

A: Kreia did not want the Exile to kill the Jedi Masters. She wanted
the Exile to find and gather the Masters so that SHE (Kreia) could
strip them of the Force. Dark Side Exiles, in killing the Masters,
deny Kreia her lifelong dream, and so they "fail" her in this way.
I more assumed that Kreia actually wanted the Exile to be brought before the Jedi Masters in the Enclave, and therefore, the Jedi Masters would be convinced that the Exile is a success and not a failure, and that everyone would love the Exile for saving them, and would not strip her of the Force. When the Jedi Masters decide to strip her of the Force, she intervened, angry that her dream of "defeating someone without laying a blow" failed. She could not do that...so she decided to kill them and strip them of the Force.
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Old 11-05-2006, 03:05 PM   #7
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No, Kreia saw the exile as precious, and the one thing she did not want to do was to kill him/her. She did not like the idea of killing, period. Take for an example if you kill all of the Jedi, or if you kill an innocent; her reaction is indignant.

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Old 11-05-2006, 07:19 PM   #8
SilentScope001
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No, Kreia saw the exile as precious, and the one thing she did not want to do was to kill him/her.
Then I wonder that if Kreia just want to transmit the wound. Basically, now that the Exile gained his connection to the Force, others will feel that wound...and will be unable to use the Force. That, all the time, her plan was succesful. That the only reason she taught the Exile was to destroy the Force...and she did so.

That...in other words, Kreia won after all.
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Old 12-24-2006, 08:39 AM   #9
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i wonder whether kreia actually wanted to be saved? if as a LS exile, you choose to tell her that she still can be redeemed, she's grateful, but still thinks that she has fallen too far (she seems to be of the same opinion where atris is concerned)

in a way, perhaps she just wanted someone to follow revan...find him/her in the unknown regions and aid him/her against the true sith? much of her final conversation is geared towards psyching the exile into following revan.

i think kreia did not so much want to kill the force, but for everyone to be entirely free of it...beyond its control. then they could play little manipulative games without annoying the force

Last edited by beehoon; 12-25-2006 at 04:20 AM.
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Old 12-24-2006, 08:20 PM   #10
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Kreia did NOT want to kill the Force, that was another layer of deception to provoke the Exile into combat. Remember she says, "I would have killed the galaxy to preserve you." (something to that effect) .To preserve you. This implies that her primary focus was not on the destruction of the Force but the Exile herself.

Kreia's attitude towards Nihilus and Sion: She holds nothing but contempt for them because they represent everything that she believes against: slavery to the Force. However, this is does not mean that she seeks its destruction and by extension the destruction of all life:

We can gather from her conversations with the Disciple (where she says she doesn't want to win by destroying the galaxy) and her remarks that there is no future in the dead universe that Nihilus will bring about that she was not some genocidal maniac. That sort of total destruction holds no appeal to her.

She wants to prove her teachings, her life work, correct: that its possible to stand on your two feet without the Force, that somebody can forge their own destiny, that the will of the Force is not absolute. However, I do believe she would have indeed destroyed the Force if the Exile failed: a galaxy without free will in her view probably would be pointless.
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Old 12-25-2006, 05:27 AM   #11
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I wonder what made Kreia believe that the force does not allow free choice in the first place. Maybe the force influences someone, but it can't control someone.
Let's say Kreia "overreacted".
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Old 12-25-2006, 02:14 PM   #12
SilentScope001
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Quote:
I wonder what made Kreia believe that the force does not allow free choice in the first place. Maybe the force influences someone, but it can't control someone.
"The Dark Side of the Force is strong indeed..."

"Once you fall down on the path of the Dark Side, you can never go back..."

"Always stick to the narrow. Follow the will of the Force..."

yadda, yaadda, yadda.

Basically, we don't know much about the Force. Kreia may be overreacting. Or she may be right.

Besides, infulence is the same as contorl. You infulence your party members, you contorl them. She know the power of echoes, and how to change the world, by simple actions.
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