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Old 06-14-2006, 03:21 AM   #1
Joe89
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I'm sorry to say, but Malak is cooler than the three scrubs in this game [SPOILERS]

Using the force to eat the population of a planet? A broken old brute who is enslaved twice by the same person? A crusty old lady who talks in riddles and actually travels with her main opponent on his whole quest?

I will take good old Darth Malak any day.
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Old 06-25-2006, 06:34 AM   #2
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Malak is better if you like the traditional sith lord, with: Commanding a normal army and fleet/empire, wanting to rule the galaxy, engaged in a war w/ the republic and the maniacal laugh.
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Old 06-25-2006, 11:59 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe89
Using the force to eat the population of a planet? A broken old brute who is enslaved twice by the same person? A crusty old lady who talks in riddles and actually travels with her main opponent on his whole quest?

I will take good old Darth Malak any day.
I second that - although the three TSL baddies may appear more "interesting", there are simply too many flaws in the execution of their concpts ... Nihilus being described as ridiculously powerful (killing a planet with the Force - that's like 100+ (?) times the power of any jedi ever seen in any movie)and then appearing ridiculously weak in-game, Sion first cutting off Kreia's Hand and later obeying her without hestitation or question; Kreia's betrayal may be an interesting plot twist, however it (at least for me) raises some questions and frustration - how cool is it to have a master who continually tells you off for everything you do, secretly abuses you for her own goals and in the end trys to kill you?
Malak may be relatively chliche, but he fits his role nicely - and the strength of SW movies or games has never lain in intellectually challenging plot ...
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Old 06-25-2006, 12:15 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YertyL
Nihilus being described as ridiculously powerful (killing a planet with the Force - that's like 100+ (?) times the power of any jedi ever seen in any movie)and then appearing ridiculously weak in-game.
Hahaha...
I never thought about that. I must have dismissed Nihilus' background. He should have been your end nemesis, and then he should have kicked the PCs but inches from death. What the hell happened?



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Old 06-25-2006, 12:25 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe89
Using the force to eat the population of a planet? A broken old brute who is enslaved twice by the same person? A crusty old lady who talks in riddles and actually travels with her main opponent on his whole quest?

I will take good old Darth Malak any day.
If you like your villains simple, easy to understand and generally cliche, that's fine. Malak was good on the first go-around. But Malaks in every game, and things start to get really dull for people who like using their brain to understand the outline of a plot.

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Originally Posted by MacLeodCorp
He should have been your end nemesis, and then he should have kicked the PCs but inches from death. What the hell happened?
They explain why Nihilus becomes weak after trying to feed off the Exile. Perhaps his weakness was a bit too prevalent in the finale, but you can dismiss it if you want.
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Old 06-25-2006, 12:53 PM   #6
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Malak FTW. although i don't approve of his ideas, they;re were much better executed than TSl. i.e actually blowing a planet up and still being a hard nut, not supposedly killing one off with the force and being about as strong as a drunken tach.


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Old 06-25-2006, 01:06 PM   #7
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We all know KoTOR 1 had a better executed story than TSL, but as for the villains I say Nihilus and it's a real shame there wasn't much info on him and that he wasn't the final boss. I always thought Sion would go down first, but then it turned out to be Nihilus, how disapointing.

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Old 06-26-2006, 01:42 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igyman
We all know KoTOR 1 had a better executed story than TSL, but as for the villains I say Nihilus and it's a real shame there wasn't much info on him and that he wasn't the final boss. I always thought Sion would go down first, but then it turned out to be Nihilus, how disapointing.
Bingo. Most of the story line from Kotor 1, delved into the past giving out lots of background information about Revan and Malak and keeping the player in the loop. Kotor 2 however used FAR too much mysticism, i mean Kreia was enough but they over played it with the mysterious Sion, Nihilus and Atris. These could have been very unique charactors if they did'nt use the "Kreia template" on all three of them.


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Old 06-26-2006, 05:45 PM   #9
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Mysterious isn't a bad thing, the bad thing is that they've cut out the content that unveils the mystery. Yeah, I've heard all about Obsidian being pressured to finish the game, but that doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of stuff missing due to their rush.

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Old 06-26-2006, 10:30 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbl1
and the maniacal laugh.
This is by far the most important thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeodCorp
Hahaha...
I never thought about that. I must have dismissed Nihilus' background. He should have been your end nemesis, and then he should have kicked the PCs but inches from death. What the hell happened?
Something to do with being a hole in the force.

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Old 06-27-2006, 12:02 AM   #11
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Thread: I am sorry to say, but Darth Malak is cooler than the three scrubs in this game.
Be that as it may, Revan is way the hell "Cooler" than Malak and Nihilus looks better as a "Bad Guy" as well as Sion.
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Old 06-27-2006, 02:04 AM   #12
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Kreia was ok, but Malak was much better. He's just the typical evil guy who doesn't care about anything. He reminds me of Vader.
Sion is interesting and could've been a very cool villain...if he made more efforts to pursue you...
And Nihilus...yeah...


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Old 06-27-2006, 05:51 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Prime
Something to do with being a hole in the force.
So that's what he said.. He was lying :P


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Old 06-27-2006, 11:19 AM   #14
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Are you kidding? Malak was so disgustingly cliche it's beyond belief. I like Sion and Kreia better than him, though Nihilus is also a pathetic wimp.

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Kotor 2 however used FAR too much mysticism, i mean Kreia was enough but they over played it with the mysterious Sion, Nihilus and Atris. These could have been very unique charactors if they did'nt use the "Kreia template" on all three of them.
Far too much mysticism? The entire point of the KotOR II plotline is YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IS GOING ON. That's why you have to hunt down the Jedi Masters, that's why you have to reconnect with the Force, that's why you have to accept Kreia as a teacher, that's why you have to confront the Sith Lords, and ultimately, your entire past. If they did what you said, it wouldn't have been the same game at all. I loved the setup of KotOR II's plotline, other than "OMFG Nihilus is like SOOOOO POWERFUL!!! Oh, BTW, you can kill him in 2 seconds lol". That was a big letdown.


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Old 06-27-2006, 01:18 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Foley
Are you kidding? Malak was so disgustingly cliche it's beyond belief. I like Sion and Kreia better than him, though Nihilus is also a pathetic wimp.
I have to agree with that statement, except about Malak. I liked Malak, except when he laughed.
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Old 06-27-2006, 01:33 PM   #16
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Are you kidding? Malak was so disgustingly cliche it's beyond belief.
And yet he was awesome. Crazy, isn't it?

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Old 06-27-2006, 04:27 PM   #17
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Well, Malak is "complete" at least:

Kreia is ok for the most part, though her ending (and ending for the series for that matter) needs more work, I don't see a dying old witch talking for hours standing up-right. At least let her drop down on the floor or against a pillar or soemthing.

Sion is nicely done, up to the end. I really wish I would get chased by ahim more, he is kinda scary. I also wish they have more in-depth cut scene on how he would once again bow down to Traya after he almsot succeed in killing her though, kinda out of place there.

Nihilus have good build up, but anti-climatic confrontation, most is said in his own thread already.

Atris is weakly done, I wish they would keep the Atris vs Nihilus confrontation scene, even though we know Atris won't send a chance. Either its a light-side-again Atris picking up the pieces, or option for DS Exile to command his Atris pet to do his bidding. That would at least be a nice thing to watch.

Basically kotor2 Villians lack a bit of depth, perhaps due to rush work.
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Old 06-27-2006, 09:06 PM   #18
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Malak was tall, had a nice costume (the red suit was fitting) and he had the classical bad guy laugh. Cliched maybe, but still he was alot of fun. I did think Darth Sion was alright, but in the end he turned out to be some pathetic sob who submitted to an old witch. And I really hated Kreia, You don't know how satisfying it was to end that old witches life.

Darth Nihilus was supposed to sound like super bad guy that made Darth Vader look like a sissy, this was the pinnacle of the darkside, killing planets to fuel his power had me saying wtf? Next thing you you know he turns out to be some pathetic character.

But nothing beats Darth Malak at this point, the end duel was truly epic.. Master v.s Apprentice, Light Side v.s Dark Side (for LS characters) and the fate of the galaxy at stake.


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Old 06-28-2006, 07:58 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Foley
The entire point of the KotOR II plotline is YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IS GOING ON.
And that's the game's biggest weakness--being mysterious and vague is easy. Sooner or later you need the payoff, which unfortunately never really comes. There isn't a single moment in TSL that had the same "OMG! What...?! REALLY?!" impact as finding out the truth about your PC for the first time in KotOR on board the Leviathan, IMHO. On my first playthrough of KotOR, my first savegame after the Leviathan looked like
spoiler:
I'm Revan???????!!!!!!!!!

and there was no comparable moment in TSL. Sure it was a lot darker, more multi-layered and much more ambitious, but tragically they just ran out of money, time, and/or ideas and couldn't make the story threads all tie together. *sigh* Anyway, back on topic.

Malak was cooler only in that he was appropriately tough as a final villain. As a character, I found him to be just another one-dimensional, muah-ha-ha-ing generic evil guy. If he had a moustache, he'd be twiddling it in every cutscene a la Snidely Whiplash. Yawn. Still, fighting him was actually hard. He was a final boss who had some stones, unlike the TSL crop. Kreia, Sion and Nihilus were more interesting as characters (well, maybe not Nihilus--he was a character concept) but unsatisfyingly easy to clobber. Sion in particular could have provided a lot more storyline fodder if they'd fleshed out the story before rushing TSL into stores for Christmas...oh well.

Final Verdict:
Malak--standard seen one, seen 'em all bad guy. But tough as he should be.
Kreia, Sion--Much better and more complex villains. But wimps. And they shouldn't be.
Nihilus--a black coat on a hatrack has the same charisma. And a wimp. And he REALLY shouldn't be.


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Old 07-03-2006, 12:45 AM   #20
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Basically I see the difference between Malak and Traya to be like comparing Darth Vader to Darth Sidious. One uses brute force and is rather obvious about how they go about things while the other uses cunning and deviousness to reach the same objective by risking someone else's neck. (Nevermind the obvious cyber enhancements versus the shriveled cackling beneath a robe..)

Sion = Darth Maul

Nihilus = red herring
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Old 07-03-2006, 05:11 PM   #21
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I thought that it was a mistake in TSL to make it so obvious that Kreia was the betrayer. You might have had that tension and OMG moment if she had been even more subtle in her ways and you really had to consider whether to believe in her or your other friends -- only to be thunderstruck when you realize you'd been manipulated by virtually everyone, especially Kreia, in the end. Everything was just too obvious.

The biggest OMG moment for me came with the final meeting with the Jedi masters -- like, noooooo Vrook (even though he was a crabby bastige)!!!

And, on topic -- I really liked Malak, his voice, his look, and enjoyed the challenge of the final confrontation. I don't think he should have felt any regrets when he died, however -- that was really weak -- he might have cursed the PC for being the one to lure him to the dark side, loading all the responsibility on the PC in an appropriately Sith-like manner, the way Saul tried to take a final stab at hurting Carth, and died laughing.


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Old 08-04-2006, 11:45 AM   #22
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Malak was a walking advertisement against smokeless tobacco(the dark side causes mouth cancer... who knew?). Nihilis had potential, except the whole wound in the force thing bothered me to begin with. Sion was just plain boring to me. Kreia was really the only interesting one to me. A lot more backstory would have done all of the above worlds of good.
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Old 08-04-2006, 02:07 PM   #23
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These three are in general weaker than Malak because they are so much harder to understand.

My first time through I didnt at all understand why Kreia was doing what she was doing. It actually took me like 3 playthroughs to realize that she wanted to somehow use you to kill the Force (and I still dont understand HOW she planned to do that). All she keeps saying is stuff like "You lived without the Force and thats why I sought you out." That basically tells me nothing about what she means to do with that unique trait of mine. Also I agree it wasnt enough of an "OMG!!!!!" moment when she betrayed you. You know it is coming all along really.

Sion is pretty cool. I dont mind the guy but he is totally in the background in the story. He is absolutely NOT a main part of it. He just provides a couple boss fights and that's all. Because hes not a big part of the story, nothing is really explained about him in great detail. You know that he was at Trayus Academy with Kreia and that she was an abusive teacher (probably in a mental way but thats another unexplained thing) and he betrayed her and cast her out. That's all you know, and frankly it is a weak back story that makes Sion an average villain at best. Also the fact that he never seems like much of a threat to you (besides being on Peragus, he doesnt follow you or do anything bad) makes him weak.

Nihilus also suffers from being hard to understand. The whole "feeding off of force sensitives" thing is a bit overly weird in my view to begin with. But it's acceptable. The only problem is that it is never explained why you are the only one who can kill him. No one tells you that you are the only one because he cant feed off of the force within you. If I remember correctly I didnt really grasp that the first time I played it (the problem being that you only get answers to this and stuff like it through certain very specific conversation choices that players dont always choose). And once again, like Sion, you get no backstory on him beyond what Kreia knows. It makes him seem like he came out of the blue and just is this totally random huge threat that you dont understand. Thats weak. And obviously the fact that hes so easy to kill is also weak.

What made Malak a good villain were things that these villains simply did not have. He was a constant threat to you, in that he blew up an entire world just to get you, and was having bounty hunters going after you and his apprentice etc etc. None of these villains were ever really a threat to you. Nihilus was a threat to Jedi and people in general, but not specifically you. Malak was also a good villain because he had large personal ties to your character. These villains either have personal ties to Kreia or are Kreia. You dont have personal ties to any of them and as such its totally impersonal.


Anyways my rant is over. KOTOR II makes me mad because the gameplay is IMO a lot better than KOTOR I but the story is just such a lesser story. KOTOR IIs gameplay with a KOTOR I level story would be perfect.
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Old 08-04-2006, 02:26 PM   #24
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While Malak was the typical SW villain type, Kreia was well done too.

I found that Kreia's character was fleshed out very well but that the other two Sith Lords were rather bland and forgettable.

As for the TSL storyline, I still enjoyed the game but the "wound in the force", the "echoes" and the "feeding off of force sensitives" thingies were just too esoteric for me, cut content or not.

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Old 08-04-2006, 03:07 PM   #25
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I think if they'd switched the bosses around a bit in TSL it might have worked better--instead of Nihilis/Sion/Traya, it might have been better as Sion/Traya/Nihilis--they build Nihilis up as the big bad guy so much through the game that when I got done fighting him, I actually expected the game to end fairly soon thereafter, instead of having an entire planet follow thereafter. If they'd built him up more and given him some characterization and made him a Real Tough Boss (tm), I'd have been a little more satisfied.

I agree with Mace--Malak was a very simple Bad Guy, but appropriately tough. The TSL bad guys were more interesting but too easy to beat, sometimes ridiculously easy. I think I took out Nihilis in 2 rounds and thought to myself, "well, that was just _way_ too simple. What gives?"

@Darth333--I could deal with the 'feeding on force sensitives' but the 'wound/echoes in the force' was a little too esoteric for me, too.


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Old 08-04-2006, 06:23 PM   #26
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I think I'm going to get stoned for this one, but I found Kreia to be a far better villain than Malak. Malak is a good villain, but he's a complete cliche. He laughs whenever he wins at something, for crying out loud. Although a villain like that is okay to have once, I imagine most people will be extremely disappointed if the main bad guy in KotOR III is like him, or if there'd been another Malak in place of Kreia.

Kreia, on the other hand, isn't a blind idiot who orders her troops to simply destroy everything. Unlike Malak, her character was full of depth, and you don't discover all of her motives until the end of the game. I found the scenes with her executing her plans or simply talking to her to be far more enjoyable than watching Malak order his lackeys about. Don't get me wrong, I consider Malak a fitting villian for KotOR I, but cunning bad guys are just plain better than big bullies.

The difficulty of the Sith Lords in TSL never bothered me, though. You can correct that problem with Kotor Tool in less than a few minutes, so I don't see why it's an issue.


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Old 08-04-2006, 08:52 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lessthanjake2
What made Malak a good villain were things that these villains simply did not have. He was a constant threat to you, in that he blew up an entire world just to get you
Taris vs. Peragus, which Sion's Sith blew up in an attempt to kill you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lessthanjake2
and was having bounty hunters going after you and his apprentice etc etc.
Unlike Sion, Visas and the Sith Assassins that stalk you at various points in the game? Granted that Calo, Darth Brandon and Lord Malak's Displeasure Delegations tended to talk before fighting unlike Visas and the assassins, but most of KotOR you did go fairly unchallenged by your main opponent save for those handful of encounters, just like in TSL.

(And I am happy that there were no "Leviathan incident" in TSL. I hate it when you are forced into "You are captured no matter what, because we say so" situations in games. Breaks the immersion and takes control out of the hands of the player.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lessthanjake2
None of these villains were ever really a threat to you. Nihilus was a threat to Jedi and people in general, but not specifically you.
As the "Last of the Jedi" you were next on Nihilus menu, and he did send Visas, his apprentice, off to fetch you. He just was a bit less theatric about it than Darth Malak was (and Visas was not as much of a two-bit thug as Darth Bandon was so you didn't need to kill her.)

From the start of the game the Sith in TSL seemed to have a more direct interest in you personally than they did in KotOR1, where you were just an obstacle on the way to capturing Bastila until the truth was revealed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lessthanjake2
Malak was also a good villain because he had large personal ties to your character.
You didn't know that until more than 2/3 through the game though. Before that you were lead to believe Malak was mostly after Bastila and only concerned himself with you since you travelled with her and protected her.

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I agree with Mace--Malak was a very simple Bad Guy, but appropriately tough.
I agree. Darth Malak was a thug, more of a young Darth Vader than a Palpatine type. He was an enforcer and tool of someone who was making the plans and pulling the strings, like Vader was for Palpatine. But Malak's ambition made him betray his master and placed him in the top spot, even though he wasn't really suited for it.

Causing random havoc and destroying the republic without finesse to become the Master Of the Galaxy(tm) paints him more as a homocidal maniac thug than a scheming evil mastermind. And he continued to play his "enforcer" role, actively chasing after the player, even though nobody pulled his strings any more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
The TSL bad guys were more interesting but too easy to beat, sometimes ridiculously easy. I think I took out Nihilis in 2 rounds and thought to myself, "well, that was just _way_ too simple. What gives?"
Since I mostly played the game for the story and not the fights the first time I found it rather refreshing with a bad guy who wasn't insanely more powerful than you and could breathe fire and shoot laser beams out of his eyes for no explained reason. With his primary strength, the force drain, out of the picture he felt more like an even opponent. Someone who the Exile might actually consider herself capable to challenge without comitting suicide.

Most of the strength of the Exile&friends in the game tends to come from the rather insanely overpowered eqipment you can find and build. With upgraded armor/robes and lightsabers there is very little that lasts long against you, while most enemies fight more or less naked by comparison. Remove everything except your lightsaber and Nihilus would probably offer more of a challenge.

But I can agree that on replays, when you already know most of the story, combat becomes a larger, more important part of the game experience. It also tends to become easier during replays since you've better mastered how the game works. For those situations tougher boss opponents may be enjoyable, but the way the Difficulty setting in the game works I find it entirely unsatisfying to set it higher than Normal. There are more fun ways to up the encounter difficulty in my opinion.


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Old 08-05-2006, 02:07 AM   #28
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I personally liked Malak's look better than Sion's look, and I liked Malak's personality/backstory more than Nihilus' personality/backstory. However, if you take Nihilus' look and combine it with Sion's story and a little tlc/enrichment, you have a baddy that owns Malak like a Twi'lek dancer is owned by a Hutt with a cantina. As it is, however, I prefer Malak to the duo from TSL.


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Old 08-05-2006, 06:28 PM   #29
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Taris vs. Peragus, which Sion's Sith blew up in an attempt to kill you?
Notice I said "CONSTANT threat" Sure, him getting to you at Peragus was an example of what I was talking about, but there is nothing like that again for the rest of the game. In KOTOR 1 you got captured by the Leviathan, you got stalked by Malaks apprentice, and you got stalked by Calo Nord who was working for Malak. That's all after Taris.

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Unlike Sion, Visas and the Sith Assassins that stalk you at various points in the game?
When do you get stalked by Sion and Sith Assassins at various points? It was really only Peragus. Sure, they were on Korriban but I always got the idea that Sion wasnt there cause of you, that he was there to bask in the dark power there and to kill Vash. And if he was there cause of you, it sure wasnt made all that clear.

And having Visas go after you is cool but it is just one example, and shes pretty easily turned to your side so shes not some bad ass bad guy that you kill.

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As the "Last of the Jedi" you were next on Nihilus menu, and he did send Visas, his apprentice, off to fetch you. He just was a bit less theatric about it than Darth Malak was (and Visas was not as much of a two-bit thug as Darth Bandon was so you didn't need to kill her.)
But Nihilus himself couldnt find you. He doesnt seem able to sense you because you "a wound in the force." He sent Visas to do it because she had the capabilities to find you. I dont know. Playing through the game, I never got the sense that Nihilus was after me. I feel like you are even told that single Jedi dont attract him, that he can only sense many Jedi in the same place.

Quote:
You didn't know that until more than 2/3 through the game though. Before that you were lead to believe Malak was mostly after Bastila and only concerned himself with you since you travelled with her and protected her.
It doesnt matter if its only known for only about 1/3 of the game. It adds a personal aspect to seeking him out and fighting him in the end. That makes him a better villain. The fact that it was added later in the story is even better because it adds depth to the character of Malak as time went on.
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Old 08-05-2006, 08:50 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by lessthanjake2
Notice I said "CONSTANT threat" Sure, him getting to you at Peragus was an example of what I was talking about, but there is nothing like that again for the rest of the game.
In my opinion there was no "constant threat" in either of the games. You could merrily go about your own business and do pointless (for the main plot) side quests as you saw fit with no ill effects. Malak and his goons would wait until you felt like proceeding with the main quest.

Sion & Assassins at Peragus, Visas when you either was strongly light/dark or had done some of the planets, Sion & Assassins again at Korriban, Nihilus assassins on Dxun's mandalorian camp. Not overwhelming, but I'd hardly call that "nothing like that again".

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Originally Posted by lessthanjake2
When do you get stalked by Sion and Sith Assassins at various points? It was really only Peragus. Sure, they were on Korriban but I always got the idea that Sion wasnt there cause of you, that he was there to bask in the dark power there and to kill Vash.
Peragus, Korriban, Dxun...

If you read Vash's datapad on Korriban it becomes fairly clear (IMO) that she was nothing but a bait used by Sion in an attempt to lure you there. The moment the Hawk had landed she was no longer needed and was killed. Visas will tell you so as well if you have her in the group when you find Vash's corpse.

Sion wants all Jedi dead, but he's after the Exile personally. If the Exile is male because you are (in his eyes) Kreia's new apprentice who he wants to fail to humiliate her. There also seems to be some form of jealousy involved. If the Exile is female because he has become obsessed with you (as close to infatuation as a half-dead Sith can come I suppose).

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Originally Posted by lessthanjake2
And having Visas go after you is cool but it is just one example, and shes pretty easily turned to your side so shes not some bad ass bad guy that you kill.
I've always had some trouble beating Visas (may be because my characters are cronic lightsiders making her appear at the earliest possible opportunity) so I can't agree she's a pushover.

The only difference (in combat terms) between Visas and Bandon is that Visas surrenders when she's been badly hurt, while Bandon fights to the death. She won't let you surrender and will kill you if you can't defeat her, so from the Exile's perspective the fight is as much a matter of of life and death as Revan's fight against Bandon was.

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Originally Posted by lessthanjake2
But Nihilus himself couldnt find you. He doesnt seem able to sense you because you "a wound in the force." He sent Visas to do it because she had the capabilities to find you. I dont know. Playing through the game, I never got the sense that Nihilus was after me.
You don't see Malak running after you personally either. He just stays on his bridge sending his goons after you. Like Nihilus stays on his bridge sending his goons after you. Seems to me they both equally wants to get their hands on their respective protagonist, though for different reasons.

Malak doesn't know where you are either (until Saul snatches you), he sends his goons out to locate you.

First he sends Visas to find you. Then, when Tobin sells you out at Onderon and informs Nihilus that you are there his Assassins show up at the Mandalorian camp soon enough and try to deal with you. Remember the scene when first travelling to Onderon, where someone had told Tobin to keep an eye out for you. Seeing as how Vaklu was "allied" with Nihilus faction its not hard to imagine who had told them about you, even though it isn't said directly.

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Originally Posted by lessthanjake2
It doesnt matter if its only known for only about 1/3 of the game. It adds a personal aspect to seeking him out and fighting him in the end. That makes him a better villain. The fact that it was added later in the story is even better because it adds depth to the character of Malak as time went on.
I'll agree that it was a nice thouch to have a more personal past relation with the main bad-guy than was at first apparent, it makes the last quarter of the story more interesting and the final battle more emotional.

But I disagree that it adds any depth to Malak's character. He's still the same utterly predictable thug that he was from the start. Subtlety, scheming and deception isn't something he's concerned about since brute force will suffice for his purposes. This never changes from Taris to the Starforge Command Deck, in my opinion. The change doesn't arrive until he's dying on the floor, coughing out his last words.

It does, however, add depth to the Revan player character though, who should be profoundly affected by the revelation, for good or ill (depending on the player's whim).


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Old 08-05-2006, 09:53 PM   #31
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Malak is too cliche. He is just a dumb bully who likes to blow up stuff. The villians in Kotor 2 were a vast improvement, although Nihilus could have used some more backstory. The Kotor 2 villians are more manipulative, smart, sneaky type villians who lay out traps and send assasins, or even hide with the PC and try to sway him to the dark side. I _HATED_ Kreia, because she got on my nerves, but she was an excelent bad guy, err, well, bad girl. Malak fit his role very nicely, but I don't like him much myself, because he is just an idiot. He blows up the galaxy just so he can rule it.


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Old 08-05-2006, 11:56 PM   #32
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In my opinion there was no "constant threat" in either of the games. You could merrily go about your own business and do pointless (for the main plot) side quests as you saw fit with no ill effects. Malak and his goons would wait until you felt like proceeding with the main quest.
Well yeah obviously thats technically true, but supposedly Malak had people after you at all times not to mention that there were actual Sith soldiers walking around Taris, Manaan, and Korriban.

Quote:
Sion & Assassins at Peragus, Visas when you either was strongly light/dark or had done some of the planets, Sion & Assassins again at Korriban, Nihilus assassins on Dxun's mandalorian camp. Not overwhelming, but I'd hardly call that "nothing like that again".
Sions assassins on Korriban were sorta coincidence I thought.
The assassins at Dxun were not explained to be after you. They fought the Mandalorians too. Furthermore, its not like those guys sought you out vigorously. They were on Dxun itself at the Freedon Nadd tomb presumably. If those guys were after you they needed a cutscene having someone tell them to get you. That goes a long way. Cause otherwise it just seems random.

Quote:
Peragus, Korriban, Dxun...

If you read Vash's datapad on Korriban it becomes fairly clear (IMO) that she was nothing but a bait used by Sion in an attempt to lure you there. The moment the Hawk had landed she was no longer needed and was killed. Visas will tell you so as well if you have her in the group when you find Vash's corpse.

Sion wants all Jedi dead, but he's after the Exile personally. If the Exile is male because you are (in his eyes) Kreia's new apprentice who he wants to fail to humiliate her. There also seems to be some form of jealousy involved. If the Exile is female because he has become obsessed with you (as close to infatuation as a half-dead Sith can come I suppose).
Meh it may not have been coincidence but once again it is not made clear. If you have to have one party member with you or have to read the datapads to get whats going on thats a problem. I generally dont read datapads. However, I thought her datapad just said that they were keeping her there but she made an account to open a door. How does that make anything clear?

Quote:
I've always had some trouble beating Visas (may be because my characters are cronic lightsiders making her appear at the earliest possible opportunity) so I can't agree she's a pushover.

The only difference (in combat terms) between Visas and Bandon is that Visas surrenders when she's been badly hurt, while Bandon fights to the death. She won't let you surrender and will kill you if you can't defeat her, so from the Exile's perspective the fight is as much a matter of of life and death as Revan's fight against Bandon was.
Meh I didnt mean how hard she is to fight or something. I just meant that an enemy that is so weak minded in her evil that she is easily turned to the light isnt all that bad ass.

Quote:
You don't see Malak running after you personally either. He just stays on his bridge sending his goons after you. Like Nihilus stays on his bridge sending his goons after you. Seems to me they both equally wants to get their hands on their respective protagonist, though for different reasons.
Malak sends a bunch of people after you. Nihilus only sends Visas, or at least thats all you see him sending

Quote:
Malak doesn't know where you are either (until Saul snatches you), he sends his goons out to locate you.
Thats not the point. The point is that once Nihilus sends his one goon after you (Visas) he is done with goons. ANd since he himself cant find you, hes not a threat.

Quote:
First he sends Visas to find you. Then, when Tobin sells you out at Onderon and informs Nihilus that you are there his Assassins show up at the Mandalorian camp soon enough and try to deal with you. Remember the scene when first travelling to Onderon, where someone had told Tobin to keep an eye out for you. Seeing as how Vaklu was "allied" with Nihilus faction its not hard to imagine who had told them about you, even though it isn't said directly.
It should be said directly though because while I realized that after playing it a while I am pretty sure I didnt get that the first time through. And most people dont play it more than once. In my view its ok not to spell things out 100%, but they gotta make it clear. You dont really find out hes allied with the Sith until later anyways. So when that first happens you dont know whats going on.

Quote:
But I disagree that it adds any depth to Malak's character. He's still the same utterly predictable thug that he was from the start. Subtlety, scheming and deception isn't something he's concerned about since brute force will suffice for his purposes. This never changes from Taris to the Starforge Command Deck, in my opinion. The change doesn't arrive until he's dying on the floor, coughing out his last words.

It does, however, add depth to the Revan player character though, who should be profoundly affected by the revelation, for good or ill (depending on the player's whim).
It definately adds depth. Hes not 100% a total thug. Think about it. He USED to be the savior of the Republic and then something happened with you and him that made them turn and be the destroyers of the Republic. Thats not a totally shallow character. Theres depth.
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Old 08-06-2006, 12:08 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by lessthanjake2
I generally dont read datapads. However, I thought her datapad just said that they were keeping her there but she made an account to open a door.
A poor idea in a game that does not spoon-feed you the story. That is what her datapad said, but it seems like more than a coincidence that Sion kept a Jedi alive for an extended period of time, and that she just happened to die after you arrived on Korriban, no?


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Old 08-06-2006, 07:42 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by lessthanjake2
not to mention that there were actual Sith soldiers walking around Taris, Manaan, and Korriban.
Who posed absolutely zero threat to you. You could walk up to them and introduce yourself and all they would do would be to laugh at you and tell you to go away. Some threat.

You never felt any pressing need to stay out of sight and keep a low profile whenever there were Sith troopers about.

You could be the arena champion and swooprace master, both fairly "public" events, and the Sith would never take notice. I guess the Sith don't watch holo-television unlike everyone else. Davik even said that the fight after the swoop race was broadcast on holo-tv, and Bastila took part in that, so the Sith were either utterly incompetent or had no idea who Malak wanted them to look for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lessthanjake2
If those guys were after you they needed a cutscene having someone tell them to get you.
(...snip...)
Meh it may not have been coincidence but once again it is not made clear. If you have to have one party member with you or have to read the datapads to get whats going on thats a problem.
(...snip...)
It should be said directly though because...
(...snip...)
In my view its ok not to spell things out 100%, but they gotta make it clear. (oxymoron?)
This seems to be the core difference in our views on the game. I don't mind games where not every minute detail of the plot is shouted to your face but you have to shop around yourself a bit to figure out all the pieces of what is going on. It gives you more of an "Aha!" experience and sense of accomplishment when you aren't spoonfed everything and told exactly what is going on. But that's just my opinion, which may be why I think TSL was overall a very good game, unlike most others who voice their opinions.

Sion drops plenty of hints whenever he shows up that he is after the Exile personally because of Kreia and jealousy (male) or obsession/infatuation which is a weakness (female). He and his goons follow their usual modus operandi of setting ambushes and attacking from the shadows rather than Malaks head-on chase. Doesn't make them any less committed to getting the Exile, in my opinion.

Nihilus wants you enough to bother sending his Seer apprentice to find you. That should say a lot for an individual who supposedly no longer concerns himself with "mortals" and thinks on a higher plane. Valku and Tobin makes no secret of their alliance with Nihilus to help overthrow Queen Talia. Tobin says they have been told to keep an eye out for you and tries to take you down when you arrive.

Kreia gives plenty of hints if you talk to her and bring her along that she has fallen from both the Jedi and the Sith and are generally fed up with both. Her special treatment of you compared to how she disdains everyone else strongly suggests she has her own plans and uses for you. Uses which she spells out clearly if you talk to her at the end, but hints are dropped throughout the game.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lessthanjake2
Meh I didnt mean how hard she is to fight or something. I just meant that an enemy that is so weak minded in her evil that she is easily turned to the light isnt all that bad ass.
Personally I find it rather refreshing with enemies who don't suicidally fight to the death no matter what, which seems to be the norm in RPGs but which isn't really all that realistic. I prefer someone with a wounded personality who can be swayed to betray her master, rather than a two bit thug like Darth Bandon with a "Oneliner + fight to the death" personality. Again a matter of choice I suppose.

Now, it would have been even nicer if the choice of actually sparing Visas or killing her anyway despite her surrender was left in the hands of the player. It would have been an excellent opportunity for moral choices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lessthanjake2
Malak sends a bunch of people after you. Nihilus only sends Visas, or at least thats all you see him sending
Calo Nord and Darth Bandon are "a bunch"? Both sends their apprentices, and Nihilus sends the Dxun strike force when Tobin informs him of your presence, even though they don't have notes attached to their forheads saying "Tobin told us where to find you, Nihilus sends his regards.". Malak is more theatric about it with the little cutscenes where he dispatches his agents, conveniently one at a time, but the end result is essentially the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lessthanjake2
It definately adds depth. Hes not 100% a total thug. Think about it. He USED to be the savior of the Republic and then something happened with you and him that made them turn and be the destroyers of the Republic. Thats not a totally shallow character. Theres depth.
He used to be Revan's faithful guard dog who did what his master told him to do and attacked what Revan told him to attack. A strong fearless warrior leading the charge into battle from the front, inspiring the troops, in accordance with Revan's strategy. Revan was the Brain and Malak was the Brawn. While Jedi he followed out of admiration and respect, while Sith because Revan was his master and teacher.

As the Dark Lord he was homocidal Brawn without brains unleashed upon the galaxy. If it wasn't for competent commanders like Saul working under him the Sith organization would likely have collapsed not long after Revan's fall. Malak is a good villain, just as much as Darth Vader is a good villain. But he is a good "antagonist's right hand" type of villain IMHO, not a good chief villain since he's not an evil mastermind. He's just a very powerful, but simple, enforcer. Scheming, calculating chief villains are more fun.


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Old 08-06-2006, 06:52 PM   #35
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A lot of people have said it... If you like the traditional villian, Malak is good. He was also very close to the old Star Wars villians like Darth Vader, etc. I think that the TSL Sith had their flaws, but they were very complex and interesting. It would have been better if you hadn't been able to kick their three butts across the modules (each of them had their strong points, but in a sense, they were all pretty easy for me to get rid of). It would have been nice if you had been able to understand more about them, but hey... I like the mystery part.
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Old 08-08-2006, 01:08 AM   #36
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Who posed absolutely zero threat to you. You could walk up to them and introduce yourself and all they would do would be to laugh at you and tell you to go away. Some threat.
They werent a threat but you could SEE the enemy around you, which is something I liked.

Quote:
You could be the arena champion and swooprace master, both fairly "public" events, and the Sith would never take notice. I guess the Sith don't watch holo-television unlike everyone else. Davik even said that the fight after the swoop race was broadcast on holo-tv, and Bastila took part in that, so the Sith were either utterly incompetent or had no idea who Malak wanted them to look for.
Haha I never heard Davik say that. Thats pretty funny actually.

Quote:
This seems to be the core difference in our views on the game. I don't mind games where not every minute detail of the plot is shouted to your face but you have to shop around yourself a bit to figure out all the pieces of what is going on. It gives you more of an "Aha!" experience and sense of accomplishment when you aren't spoonfed everything and told exactly what is going on. But that's just my opinion, which may be why I think TSL was overall a very good game, unlike most others who voice their opinions.
I dont want to be spoonfed stuff either but TSL is too much of an extreme of the opposite of spoonfeeding. A normal gamer should be able to pretty much understand the entire plot with one playthrough. I doubt a majority of people who played TSL really understood it on the first playthrough. After playing through it a bunch more times, I for one will admit that I didnt really understand it my first run. The thing is that all the information IS there but many times you get only some of the information you need in a single playthrough. There are very important things that you only are told if you choose to do a certain thing. I also like having the "Aha!" moments, but when it happens on your 3rd or 4th playthrough of the game, theres a problem. It should happen on the first or at the very least the second time.

Quote:
Sion drops plenty of hints whenever he shows up that he is after the Exile personally because of Kreia and jealousy (male) or obsession/infatuation which is a weakness (female). He and his goons follow their usual modus operandi of setting ambushes and attacking from the shadows rather than Malaks head-on chase. Doesn't make them any less committed to getting the Exile, in my opinion.
When does he say hes after the Exile personally? Before the very end, the only time he talks to you is on Korriban, and he more or less just says he's jealous of you cause Kreia picked you. Besides being a rather weak reason to stalk someone, it also doesnt make him sound super committed to getting you.

Quote:
Nihilus wants you enough to bother sending his Seer apprentice to find you. That should say a lot for an individual who supposedly no longer concerns himself with "mortals" and thinks on a higher plane. Valku and Tobin makes no secret of their alliance with Nihilus to help overthrow Queen Talia. Tobin says they have been told to keep an eye out for you and tries to take you down when you arrive.
He sends Visas (who he doesnt really care about) but afterwards it is not made all that clear that hes trying to get to you. In fact all in all I'd say the hints go the other way on that one, and show that hes NOT after you. And you can bring up all you want about how he sent assassins after you on Dxun and stuff, but as I will explain later, it is not made clear until the end that those sith assassins were from Nihilus. And as a result, WHILE you are playing the game you arent getting the feeling that Nihilus is after you.

Furthermore, you shouldnt have to only understand at the very end of the game why Tobin shot at you over Dxun. By the time you realize Nihilus and Vaklu/Tobin were allies (which can be very late in the game), very few are gonna remember that small part way earlier and realize the connection. Too much other stuff is going on at that point in the game. But thats just one example of the MANY things that the normal player wont get until after playing it a few times. And thats the problem. Most dont play the game more than once.

Quote:
Kreia gives plenty of hints if you talk to her and bring her along that she has fallen from both the Jedi and the Sith and are generally fed up with both. Her special treatment of you compared to how she disdains everyone else strongly suggests she has her own plans and uses for you. Uses which she spells out clearly if you talk to her at the end, but hints are dropped throughout the game.
Her uses for you are NOT clear. She wants to use you to end the force? But how? Thats something I STILL dont know after playing it many times.

Quote:
Personally I find it rather refreshing with enemies who don't suicidally fight to the death no matter what, which seems to be the norm in RPGs but which isn't really all that realistic. I prefer someone with a wounded personality who can be swayed to betray her master, rather than a two bit thug like Darth Bandon with a "Oneliner + fight to the death" personality. Again a matter of choice I suppose.
It may be refreshing but Visas is the main thing Nihilus sends to fight you, but shes just NOT very evil or anything.

Quote:
Now, it would have been even nicer if the choice of actually sparing Visas or killing her anyway despite her surrender was left in the hands of the player. It would have been an excellent opportunity for moral choices.
I was about to say that. Couldnt you kill Juhani in KOTOR 1? Cause I definately remember playing a dark side guy and picking the "Time to die" option every time with her and then being shocked when I actually killed her.

Quote:
Calo Nord and Darth Bandon are "a bunch"? Both sends their apprentices, and Nihilus sends the Dxun strike force when Tobin informs him of your presence, even though they don't have notes attached to their forheads saying "Tobin told us where to find you, Nihilus sends his regards.". Malak is more theatric about it with the little cutscenes where he dispatches his agents, conveniently one at a time, but the end result is essentially the same.
In case you dont remember (and I am not saying that with an attitude, I didnt remember it either until playing KOTOR 1 again recently), you have frequent meetings with Dark Jedi who say stuff like "Lord Malak was most displeased to learn you had escaped Taris alive. He would love it if we killed you"

And as I said before, its not a question of not having notes attached, its a question of it being something that a normal person wont realize their first time playing the game. If you support Talia, you learn that Nihilus and Vaklu/Tobin were working together at the end of the game when Telos is attacked (if you even do put two and two together on that one). Thats far too late for a normal person to look back at a trivial thing like that and realize that its possible Tobin told them you were on Dxun.

Quote:
He's just a very powerful, but simple, enforcer. Scheming, calculating chief villains are more fun.
Not when their schemes dont make any sense, like Kreia's. Her scheme is totally ridiculous and impossible to understand.

And you can say what you want about Malak but the fact is that hes more than just a guy who is out to destroy stuff. Thats what he is on the surface, but his character has more to it than that due to his history.
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Old 08-08-2006, 05:10 AM   #37
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O_o Now that's a long post
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Old 08-08-2006, 05:21 AM   #38
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Dance Malak, Dance!!


Malak was a great villian > . >
...as cliche as he was

I'd have to give him the award. However...had TSL been better...(Just plain better PERIOD) It wouldn't be Malak.

Its near impossible for anyone to fight for the other 3-4 as "good" baddies because they were so horribly displayed in the piece of crap TSL is.

I will say this...Sicon was BAD @$$$$$$
And Nihilus was SEXY

I hate Keria, and if you don't hate her, you should.

I'll bet my right genetal on the fact that if you had poll for best baddie Keria would be at the bottom.


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Old 08-08-2006, 06:30 AM   #39
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Of the two games, I find Malak the coolest one.
His story is litteraly 'waved' into yours. He has connections with Bastilla, Carth, HK-47. This makes him more 'human' in some sort of way. More human then Sion, Traya or Nihilus can ever hope to be.
Plus the fact that Malak is strong, and uses a longsaber. This makes him more unique then any other enemy.

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Old 08-08-2006, 07:48 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lessthanjake2
They werent a threat but you could SEE the enemy around you, which is something I liked.
Different modus operandi for Malak's Sith Empire and the remnant Sith factions under Nihilus and Sion. The Empire was a strong organization with a huge standing army and navy, able to move openly and confront its enemies (Republic, Jedi) in open war.

Sion/Nihilus were instead operating in secret to eliminate the Jedi without being bothered or challenged by the Republic. They were powerful, but not strong enough to take on the Republic military head on in open war since their factions were not large enough for that, even thoug the Republic was severely weakened. And they had no interest in doing so, since the Jedi were their chief concern.

If you are operating in secret it is an advantage not to be seen and make your presence known everywhere.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lessthanjake2
I dont want to be spoonfed stuff either but TSL is too much of an extreme of the opposite of spoonfeeding. A normal gamer should be able to pretty much understand the entire plot with one playthrough.
The balance act between telling/showing everything clearly, and offering replay value. I'm not saying TSL got that balance perfect, but in my opinion the game did have somewhat higher replay value than what KotOR1 did. You'd essentially have to follow a walkthrough to be able to squeeze every bit of information out of the game in one playthrough, though I admit that certain things (such as the Kreia's fall FMV) certainly should have been less optional in their nature.

I can agree with you that plot-critical information shouldn't be conveyed via optional high-influence dialog options with characters who are hard to influence. Nor should it be conveyed via loadscreen hints, like it was during the somewhat less coherent last planet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lessthanjake2
When does he say hes after the Exile personally? Before the very end, the only time he talks to you is on Korriban, and he more or less just says he's jealous of you cause Kreia picked you.
I think that the short conversation before you fight on Korriban reveals that. The relevant parts:

Sion: "I have studied you, immersed myself in you. I know the paths you walked in exile. I know your teacher. I know the fires that raged upon the Dxun moon while the Republic died around you. You know war. You know battle. And I know of Malachor. You know what it means to be broken. The one who travels with you will destroy you, as she did me. I can end it before it begins."

Exile: "What do you want with Kreia?"

Sion: "I want her to die, and see all that she has built cast down. All that she holds dear, in shards at her feet. "

Exile: "I won't let you harm her"

Sion: "But you do not know her as I do. You have not survived her teachings, as I have. And you have not bested her in battle, as I have. You are nothing. Yet still she walks with you, is willing to sacrifice herself for you!"


And after you flee the battle:


Sion: {Sion watches the player flee, his face indecisive. The Sith assassins gather behind him, and as one moves forward, he cuts them down with a backslash.} "Do not harm her. I command it. {Slight respect} She... has earned this. She and I will meet again."


This, in combination with what he reveals on Malachor if you pick the correct responses (since you can't pick all the available ones in a single encounter) makes me feel that he is both jealous at and obsessed with the Exile which is why he hunts her in particular. Kreia still has a strong mental hold over him even though he managed to cast her down, making him jealous of the Exile. And Obsession/infatuation is a weakness, so he wants to rid himself of that weakness (though he's somewhat conflicted about it, as the "final battle" on Malachor shows.).

Not "in your face" obvious perhaps, but in my opinion the indications are there. Sion wants all Jedi dead, but has a special interest in the Exile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lessthanjake2
He sends Visas (who he doesnt really care about) but afterwards it is not made all that clear that hes trying to get to you.
He sends Visas to bring the Exile to him (or kill her if that's not possible), and in the end Visas does just that, though perhaps not in the way and with the intentions that was expected. Since Visas has this special "Seer" gift that Kreia mentions, she if anyone should be able to find this elusive ex-Jedi who has kept hidden so long.

And I think it would be wrong to assume that Nihilus doesn't care what happens to Visas. He's force bonded with her and uses her as some sort of force focus for his power. If she's killed Nihilus is severely weakened (as shown if you are evil enough to make Visas commit suicide during the battle). If she disrupts her connection with him he's somewhat weakened (as shown if you don't have Visas kill herself during the battle). Visas is not entirely unimportant to Nihilus.

Which is why you are forced to use the Exile, Visas and Mandalore when boarding the Ravager. Any other party composition (well, except perhaps the droids) would have been doomed to fail:
  • Nihilus can't "feed" on the Exile due to her special condition.
  • Nihilus won't "feed" on Visas since they are bonded and he has use for her.
  • Nihilus won't "feed" on Mandalore since he's the only non-droid in your group who's not force sensitive and thus not worth the effort it would take.

Thus he's left weak, unable to use his greatest strength during the confrontation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lessthanjake2
it is not made clear until the end that those sith assassins were from Nihilus.
Well, they were wearing the uniforms of Nihilus faction. Nihilus assassins and dark jedi have the "flat" face mask with small dark eye slits. Sions assassins have the face shaped masks with big red goggle lenses. Though I suppose that's not something you know during the first playthough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lessthanjake2
Furthermore, you shouldnt have to only understand at the very end of the game why Tobin shot at you over Dxun. By the time you realize Nihilus and Vaklu/Tobin were allies (which can be very late in the game), very few are gonna remember that small part way earlier and realize the connection.
In my opinion that's just part of uncovering the plot as you go. If you would immediately know everything about the motivations and allegiences of Vaklu, Tobin and Nihilus as soon as you arrive in the Onderon system then you wouldn't have to play to figure out what's going on, and the choices on Onderon would be much easier since you'd know from the start that Vaklu was the "evil" choice. (As it is now you can side with Vaklu without getting any darkside points, and the only ill effect resulting from it is you'll have no choice but to kill Kavar later in the game whether you want to or not.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by lessthanjake2
It may be refreshing but Visas is the main thing Nihilus sends to fight you, but shes just NOT very evil or anything.
Which is not necessarily a bad thing, if you ask me. Adversaries who are not evil (or even acts with good intent, though that's not the case here) can be more interesting than stereotypical evil villains.

Visas may surrender and seemingly switch sides, but you have no way of knowing her loyalties or if she will betray you at a crucial moment until the game is nearly over. Having her along would be a gamble. (At least it would if you had any choice in the matter. But such a lack of choice could just as well be seen as an indication that she is plot critical and required for a betrayal further down the road. ) It didn't turn out that way, but during your first playthrough you wouldn't know that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lessthanjake2
You have frequent meetings with Dark Jedi who say stuff like "Lord Malak was most displeased to learn you had escaped Taris alive. He would love it if we killed you"
Yes, the Lord Malak Displeasure Delegations. After the first two planets it was actually more surprising that there wasn't such a group waiting for you on Manaan than it would have been if they were there. I actually had to look around carefully so I hadn't missed them.

Again a difference in how they operate. Malak's forces are like him, brute force head on, no trickery or deceit. Thus they stand out in the open where you can see them a mile away and prepare well before the confrontation. While the Assassins make an effort not to be seen until they strike, and won't waste time chatting before attacking, allowing their enemy time to prepare.

The LMDDs act in a more theatrical but not very realistic way, like Malak does. I think you can draw a parallel to Dark Maul. Maul doesn't waste time introducing himself and outlining his intentions before he enters combat with his opponents. There was no "Lord Sidious was most displeased when he learned that you had escaped Tatooine alive..." speech in the Naboo hangar. Only megalomanics boast to their opponents of their plans "since I'm going to kill you anyway" and throw away the initiative and element of surprise in the process.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lessthanjake2
Not when their schemes dont make any sense, like Kreia's. Her scheme is totally ridiculous and impossible to understand.
Not going to argue with you about that. Kreia was a good scheming mastermind type character for most of the game. It's a shame that mystery couldn't be maintained with a worthy and believable motive for the scheming at the end. Kreia was probably as inspired by Palpatine as Malak was inspired by Vader.

In my opinion it would have been better if the whole "Kill the Force" part had been skipped entirely and her now secondary motives had been her main ones. It would have felt more believable since she was cast from both the Jedi and Sith and embraced the philosophy of neither. The motives outlined in this conversation:

Exile: "You were manipulating me all along."

Kreia: "Yes, always. From the moment you awoke, I have used you. I have used you so that you might become strong, stronger than I."

Exile: "So you used me to get revenge on Sion and the others."

Kreia: "I used you to keep the Lords of the Sith from condemning the galaxy to death with their power unchecked. I used you to lure them to Telos, where they could be, at last, fought and killed. I used you to reveal Atris' corruption, so that her teachings could be ended before they began. I used you to gather the Jedi so they could be destroyed. And I used you to make those who wounded me reveal themselves, so they could be killed by the Republic."


I'm not trying to say that the plot in TSL was in any way superior to the plot in K1, because I don't think so. I'm just saying I don't agree that it was, in general terms, that much of a difference between how K1 and TSL were laid out, and that TSL would be so much worse than K1 as you seem to think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lessthanjake2
And you can say what you want about Malak but the fact is that hes more than just a guy who is out to destroy stuff. Thats what he is on the surface, but his character has more to it than that due to his history.
If he is, they it's not very apparent, since for 99.9% of the game he does not show anything else but the surface. The only crack in the facade that can be seen is when he lies dying on the floor. And by then the game is essentially over.


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