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Old 10-29-2006, 12:46 PM   #1
jon_hill987
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Jesus Camp - Religion or Brainwashing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co1_9lR9EpM

I hate seeing people who have been so warped they think it is right to kill people because of what someone wrote in a book 2000+ years ago.

How can words that were meant to inspire and help people lead better lives be twisted into such hate for your fellow man. I am far more scared of the Christan extremists in America than I am of Muslim extremists in the middle east.

If something isn't sorted out soon I believe there will come a second dark age where science and technology is heresy, reading and writing could even be banned. And I have heard that there are Christian extremists that actually want to start a world wide nuclear war because they believe all the unbelievers will go to hell and that they will be "reborn into Gods bosom" or some such rubbish, worryingly I hear some of them have George W's ear.

I'm not a Christian but I don't believe that this is what Jesus would have wanted for his followers.






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Old 10-29-2006, 02:09 PM   #2
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Did you get this from Gamingforums, by any chance? The Pub there has an almost identical thread.

Spooky. Plain and simple. Children are too gullible to be indoctrinated this way. Heck, many adults are too gullible for this kind of thing. Sigh. They're training the kids to be fanatics, not to be questioning, sceptical people. It goes against everything democracy stands for.

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Old 10-29-2006, 03:46 PM   #3
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All organized religion is essentially brainwashing. This is just much more militant.
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Old 10-29-2006, 05:40 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Did you get this from Gamingforums, by any chance? The Pub there has an almost identical thread.
No, I didn't.



Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
All organized religion is essentially brainwashing
A good point but this somehow seems much worse than the usual.


Here is another one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wgZGM9B

this comment by PirateEire sums it up for me

Quote:
This is bats*** insane... These kids are being brainwashed like hell. Run while you can, Holly. Run!






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Old 10-29-2006, 09:24 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jon_hill987
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co1_9lR9EpM

I hate seeing people who have been so warped they think it is right to kill people because of what someone wrote in a book 2000+ years ago.

How can words that were meant to inspire and help people lead better lives be twisted into such hate for your fellow man. I am far more scared of the Christan extremists in America than I am of Muslim extremists in the middle east.

If something isn't sorted out soon I believe there will come a second dark age where science and technology is heresy, reading and writing could even be banned. And I have heard that there are Christian extremists that actually want to start a world wide nuclear war because they believe all the unbelievers will go to hell and that they will be "reborn into Gods bosom" or some such rubbish, worryingly I hear some of them have George W's ear.

I'm not a Christian but I don't believe that this is what Jesus would have wanted for his followers.
Well, I am going to have to say Brainwashing, because those kids look like they was in a trance state.
I hate religion but I feel so bad for those kids future.
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Old 10-29-2006, 10:17 PM   #6
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Don't know what this is--a 3 minute newscast, which undoubtedly was filled with whatever the editors thought would be the most eye-catching and/or sensational in order to attract viewers, isn't enough information for me to determine what the whole movement is all about. On the surface they look kind of flaky, but I'll reserve judgment til I can see something more in depth.

@DE--are you implying that raising my kids in the Christian faith is somehow undemocratic? Isn't freedom of religion not only part of democracy but also a basic human right?


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Old 10-29-2006, 10:32 PM   #7
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Hmm, from what I've seen, I am very skeptical about this. But it's most likely because I disagree with everything they're preaching. The statement that they were being trained to become "warriors" had me unsure whether to raise an eyebrow or laugh. Certainly passionate for such young kids...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
@DE--are you implying that raising my kids in the Christian faith is somehow undemocratic? Isn't freedom of religion not only part of democracy but also a basic human right?
I think it depends. If one of your kids said "Mama, I wanna be a Hindu. Can I stop going to church?" would you tell him/her to forget about those silly ideas, or say it's okay?


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Old 10-29-2006, 10:36 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi

@DE--are you implying that raising my kids in the Christian faith is somehow undemocratic?
I think he possibly is inferring that, Jae.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Isn't freedom of religion not only part of democracy but also a basic human right?
I will have to agree that it is a basic human right.
Even though I don't like religion.
Because I am trying to be fair.
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Old 10-30-2006, 12:39 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
I think it depends. If one of your kids said "Mama, I wanna be a Hindu. Can I stop going to church?" would you tell him/her to forget about those silly ideas, or say it's okay?
Not to dodge, but my kids haven't developed enough cognitively to have that kind of discussion. We raise them Christian, but we also recognize that when they're old enough, they may decide on another religion or no religion at all. In the meantime, we choose to give them a Christian base to build on.
We don't raise them in a cultural vacuum, however. Every now and then we'll talk about different countries and peoples, and since they're back in school I try to coordinate with what's going on there--they had a 'Day of the Dead' thing for Halloween, for instance, and it was my plan to do some Mexican stuff this weekend til the kitchen ceiling nearly fell on my head....
We have Lithuanian ancestors so we've checked out that country, and whenever Jimbo goes to another country for his annual 2 week training duty, he takes lots of pictures and gets some souvenirs that the kids can learn from, which is fun.
We've learned some Korean in Taekwondo and so we checked Korean culture out--minus the kimchee--fermented food--blech. At some point they'll learn that Buddhism is a significant religion in Korea and Islam is a big part of the culture in the Middle East. While I raise my kids Christian, I don't want them to be intolerant snots, so we'll learn about different groups and societies, including religion when the time is appropriate.


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Old 10-30-2006, 02:25 AM   #10
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Jesus Camp is wrong for one very simple reason: praying before Bush. It's classed as idol worship, I checked.

Whether the idea of Jesus Camp in itself is wrong, there are many other camps like this that preach being in a religious war, but seeing Jesus Camp the people who run it clearly take this notion to new levels. If we criticise Muslim teachings for being militant then certainly Jesus Camp is wrong in so far as it's the same thing except for Christianity. To be fair I don't believe that the people who run the camp are really calling for a Christian Jihad, but it's very easy for the impresionable including the children who attend these camps to take the messages out of context. We see this is militant Islam where terrorist based Jihad is forced in Middle Eastern countries. The camp organisers have a duty to put their message in the proper context, do they do this? If not then the camps are most definetly wrong.
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Old 10-30-2006, 03:58 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
Jesus Camp is wrong for one very simple reason: praying before Bush. It's classed as idol worship, I checked.

Whether the idea of Jesus Camp in itself is wrong, there are many other camps like this that preach being in a religious war, but seeing Jesus Camp the people who run it clearly take this notion to new levels. If we criticise Muslim teachings for being militant then certainly Jesus Camp is wrong in so far as it's the same thing except for Christianity. To be fair I don't believe that the people who run the camp are really calling for a Christian Jihad, but it's very easy for the impresionable including the children who attend these camps to take the messages out of context. We see this is militant Islam where terrorist based Jihad is forced in Middle Eastern countries. The camp organisers have a duty to put their message in the proper context, do they do this? If not then the camps are most definetly wrong.
You probably maybe right, Nancy.
That camp probably was a training camp to support that sith Bush.
And those kids probably was being trained as discipline soldiers for that so called, "Army of God" I have heard so much of.
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Old 10-30-2006, 03:59 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Not to dodge, but my kids haven't developed enough cognitively to have that kind of discussion. We raise them Christian, but we also recognize that when they're old enough, they may decide on another religion or no religion at all. In the meantime, we choose to give them a Christian base to build on.
Ah, now that's entering a bit of a gray area. Not to say that I disagree with how 9 or 6-year olds are a bit young to decide on their faith, though what age do you consider appropriate? 13? 15? 17? 29?

Or what if they get very serious about the matter, to the point of reading the Vedas and other Shastra?

Pretty gray, IMO. I started to have some doubts about God around that age, though it didn't develop into atheism until later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
We don't raise them in a cultural vacuum, however. Every now and then we'll talk about different countries and peoples, and since they're back in school I try to coordinate with what's going on there--they had a 'Day of the Dead' thing for Halloween, for instance, and it was my plan to do some Mexican stuff this weekend til the kitchen ceiling nearly fell on my head.... {snip}
Sounds like they're getting a good education on the outside world. Public schools don't do the best job at that IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
While I raise my kids Christian, I don't want them to be intolerant snots, so we'll learn about different groups and societies, including religion when the time is appropriate.
Since you said "we'll" are you saying that they've yet to learn about other groups and societies? You seemed to be implying the opposite earlier, or I'm just misinterpreting you.


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Old 10-30-2006, 04:06 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by windu6
You probably maybe right, Nancy.
That camp probably was a training camp to support that sith Bush.
And those kids probably was being trained as discipline soldiers for that so called, "Army of God" I have heard so much of.
That might be the opinion of those who watch too much prequal Star Wars and V for Vendetta. The idea of Jesus Camp being some Bush orchastrated religious indoctranation, in all seriousness, is possible, but highly unlikely. If Bush were to run for another term (really he cannot, but if somehow he was able to) then you can make all the Palpatine and Sutler comparisons you wish and be dead on the money with stuff like Jesus Camp about.
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Old 10-30-2006, 08:42 AM   #14
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On the one hand: Pretty scary stuff.

On the other hand: I think most of these kids will grow up, hit puberty, figure out that the world has a bit more to offer than the limited viewpoint being pushed by their parents and camp leaders, and moderate out their positions... if not leave the fold altogether.

In ten years most of these kids will probably be nothing more than slightly-more-religious-than-average teens,.. who have already experimented with sex, drugs, Rock & Roll, and other schools of thought... and come to far less extreme conclusions about life.

Oh... and as long as we're all doing clips:


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Old 10-30-2006, 10:30 AM   #15
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heh the name for it 'kids on fire' kinda made me laugh. other than that, nothing unusual about it from my experience in christian school (2nd-6th grade)...i don't really see what the big deal is though, it's not like those kids won't grow up and discover how fubar the world really is...

and they're praying for bush, not to him.


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Old 10-30-2006, 12:31 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Ah, now that's entering a bit of a gray area. Not to say that I disagree with how 9 or 6-year olds are a bit young to decide on their faith, though what age do you consider appropriate? 13? 15? 17? 29?
When they reach the point of cognitive development where they can handle critical thinking. That may be a different age for each kid, so I honestly don't know when that will be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Or what if they get very serious about the matter, to the point of reading the Vedas and other Shastra?
Why not? Being Christian hasn't stopped me from reading a bit of the Koran, nor should it. There are not going to be too many limits on what they can read except for say, porn or extreme violence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Pretty gray, IMO. I started to have some doubts about God around that age, though it didn't develop into atheism until later.l
What age? I figured you haven't reached 29 yet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Sounds like they're getting a good education on the outside world. Public schools don't do the best job at that IMO.

Since you said "we'll" are you saying that they've yet to learn about other groups and societies? You seemed to be implying the opposite earlier, or I'm just misinterpreting you.
No, no misinterpreting, I wrote it badly. The joys of writing when I'm really tired. We do simple culture stuff now, like the foods (homemade hummus and shawarmas, tamales, pierogies, all are fabulous), the flags, holidays, the simple stuff. So like on Cinco de Mayo, we'll do Mexican food and pull out our little Mexican flag (because I did have a semi-uber adventure in Mexico, too), and look at vacation pictures of the Mayan site we visited. Last Christmas, we researched some Lithuanian customs and did a couple things on Christmas Eve from that. I just want to make the learning fun right now instead of making it work.
Later on we can handle the more complex issues like politics and religious issues.


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Old 10-30-2006, 12:32 PM   #17
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...

"Kids on Fire". Wow...my nutball-o-meter just went off the scale.

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Old 10-30-2006, 12:35 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue15
it's not like those kids won't grow up and discover how fubar the world really is...
I don't agree, that brainwashing could last for life (assuming they are not deprogrammed), they will not be able to form their own opinions when they are older.

One kid in that video was saying "no more, no more" on abortion, an issue she looked too young to understand let alone have an opinion on. It looked more like a conditioned response, just like you could get with hypnotism. And I think it would stick.

On a side note; anyone got a link to the full documentary? I couldn't find it online anywhere, but I'm sure it is by now..






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Old 10-30-2006, 01:16 PM   #19
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Also think about an old slogan of the Jesuits:

"Give us a child for six years, and they'll be ours forever."


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Old 10-30-2006, 04:31 PM   #20
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According to Richard Dawkins, it's "give me the child for his first seven years, and I will give you the man". Just to nit-pick.

Quote:
@DE--are you implying that raising my kids in the Christian faith is somehow undemocratic? Isn't freedom of religion not only part of democracy but also a basic human right?
So's freedom of speech, but you'd think it'd be slightly strange to teach a six-year old about Bush, wouldn't you?

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Old 10-30-2006, 08:32 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
When they reach the point of cognitive development where they can handle critical thinking. That may be a different age for each kid, so I honestly don't know when that will be.
It would fit the definition of democratic, then, if you wouldn't try to impose any Christian beliefs (going to church, praying, no meat on Sundays) on them if they decided to follow another (or no) religion when they reached that age.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Why not? Being Christian hasn't stopped me from reading a bit of the Koran, nor should it. There are not going to be too many limits on what they can read except for say, porn or extreme violence.
There's how most people outside of a religion don't read the holy book it has. I've read some but not all of the Bible for instance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
What age? I figured you haven't reached 29 yet.
9. I've not reached the age that comes 20 years later, thankfully.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
{snip} Later on we can handle the more complex issues like politics and religious issues.
Ah, I see.


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Old 10-30-2006, 09:41 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jon_hill987
I don't agree, that brainwashing could last for life (assuming they are not deprogrammed), they will not be able to form their own opinions when they are older.

One kid in that video was saying "no more, no more" on abortion, an issue she looked too young to understand let alone have an opinion on. It looked more like a conditioned response, just like you could get with hypnotism. And I think it would stick.
I somewhat agree there, as there are people out there that think if you don't go to church, that you're living in sin/ going to hell.

I don't go to church, I used to go on and off, but since i moved to a different area it's been about 5 years, and I HATE when people are all religous about going, like what's the freaking point of it, it doesn't make you a better person for going, it ends up being more of a social club. And that's all I have to say about that. :P

As for the children, maybe it is better promoting life over death? But yeah to go to the extreme saying 'YOU ARE GOING TO HELLLLLLLLLL!!!!111111 IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE!!!!!! sure that gets their attention, but when they grow up, it will be like saying 'there's monsters out in the woods' or 'santa clause brought you something' which is completely wrong, instead they should be living a 'love thy neighbor as thyself' and 'love god with all your heart' as those 2 commandments is all you need the rest falls into place.


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Old 10-30-2006, 10:51 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue15
I don't go to church, I used to go on and off, but since i moved to a different area it's been about 5 years, and I HATE when people are all religous about going, like what's the freaking point of it, it doesn't make you a better person for going, it ends up being more of a social club. And that's all I have to say about that. :P
Exactly. My experiance with religion has shown it to be very 'kliquey' especially in churches where all the people would have grown up together, making it very hard for newcomers that the church tries to gather to find themselves.
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Old 10-30-2006, 11:02 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
That might be the opinion of those who watch too much prequal Star Wars and V for Vendetta. The idea of Jesus Camp being some Bush orchastrated religious indoctranation, in all seriousness, is possible, but highly unlikely. If Bush were to run for another term (really he cannot, but if somehow he was able to) then you can make all the Palpatine and Sutler comparisons you wish and be dead on the money with stuff like Jesus Camp about.
Never say never, Nancy.
I believe something is up with Bush and his administration.
With that Jesus Camp and that extremist group Army of God I have some dangerous suspicions.
What the hell are the intentions of these people?
Are they now trying to force Christian religious views in the U.S. by brainwashing children?
Because their mission in the future when they are old enough will be to "take back America for Christ", by any means possible.
Since extremist groups like the Army of God have apparently failed by the use of violence.

Last edited by windu6; 10-31-2006 at 04:52 AM.
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Old 10-31-2006, 12:32 PM   #25
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I don't know about anyone else, but I doubt Bush is planning on using a bunch of 11 year olds to create an Army of God. Dr. Rice would probably whack him upside the head and remind him to go re-read his history of the Children's Crusade.


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Old 11-01-2006, 12:59 PM   #26
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Personally I don't think kids should have any form of religion in their life until they are old enough to chose it (18+).
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Old 11-06-2006, 05:06 PM   #27
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@DE--are you implying that raising my kids in the Christian faith is somehow undemocratic? Isn't freedom of religion not only part of democracy but also a basic human right?
'Bout time for me to address this one.

No, of course not. I was referring to the sect-environments of the "Jesus Camps".

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Old 12-11-2006, 12:37 PM   #28
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Personally I don't think kids should have any form of religion in their life until they are old enough to chose it (18+).
That is a damn good idea.






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Old 12-12-2006, 01:52 AM   #29
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Having actually watched the movie by now, I'm even more apalled by the whole concept. This is wholesale indoctrination of innocent children, made even more disturbing by the fact that the kids are being outright lied to.

What'd happen to this world if everyone were like these people? I shudder to think.

If you ask me, the most disturbing portion was when they attributed microphone problems to the Devil.

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Old 12-12-2006, 02:45 AM   #30
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They weren't just having a laugh at that bit, they were serious? Sigh, these people are beyond the pale. A little common sense, please.
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Old 12-12-2006, 02:51 AM   #31
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I somewhat agree there, as there are people out there that think if you don't go to church, that you're living in sin/ going to hell. Instead they should be living a 'love thy neighbor as thyself' and 'love god with all your heart' as those 2 commandments is all you need the rest falls into place.
I put that one to the people at inpersuitofgod.com, I asked why you had to go to church and believe in God/Jesus to get into heaven, surely if you are a good person God would let you in even if you were an Atheist? Apparently he wont, to believe in Jesus is to be a good person and Atheists are just evil Heathens (yes I did point out that Heathenism is a religion of it's own and as Atheists by definition believe in no gods of any kind they couldn't be one).

I got kicked off the forum eventually for "preaching heresy" (read pointing out contradictions in the bible, putting froward the evidence for evolution, that sort of thing). Basically they couldn't answer my questions and that upset them.

Seriously the best arguments they came up with were all circular proofs, God wrote the bible, ergo the bible must be right, the bible says God did it, QED.






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Old 12-12-2006, 05:28 PM   #32
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They weren't just having a laugh at that bit, they were serious?
Absolutely.

They prayed for their equipment and PowerPoint presentation, and called technical problems, quote, "what [Satan] just loves to do during these presentations".

We're talking CUFs big time.

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Old 12-12-2006, 05:32 PM   #33
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If there is really a devil I'm sure he would be far to busy (what with all the sin in the world and all that, I mean it take time to torture people for eternity) to have time to muck up a power point presentation.






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Old 12-12-2006, 05:38 PM   #34
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This really needs to be brought to the forefront of everyone who practices religion. Christian ultra-fundamentalism, Islamic fanatisism, all of these people who take their religion too far are cancers to the religion they serve and must be cut out.
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Old 12-12-2006, 06:21 PM   #35
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It's sad that some people watch that video and come to the conclusion that all Christians are like that. I figured they were crazy as soon as I saw them praying before a picture of George Bush. Idolatry in any form is wrong and goes completely against what the Bible says.

@jon_hill987: I'm a Christian and I certainly don't think you have to go to church to get into Heaven. Especially with how most preachers nowadays have to throw their political views into their sermons (which is one of the reasons I don't go to the church I used to go to anymore).


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Old 12-12-2006, 06:27 PM   #36
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In case that was directed at me, I'm certainly not saying all Christians are like that.

I don't know if they were worshipping Bush as a religious idol or praying to him, it's just that as he in their minds (quote) "has given credibility to the Christians" [paraphrased], they pray for him to succeed in his current position as President.

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Old 12-12-2006, 06:31 PM   #37
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No it wasn't directed at you, but at the general audience who (i assume) thinks that way. All I was saying is that a lot of people watch that video and think that all Christians are fanatic, war-mongering hypocrites when that isn't the case at all.


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Old 12-12-2006, 07:06 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jon_hill987
I put that one to the people at inpersuitofgod.com, I asked why you had to go to church and believe in God/Jesus to get into heaven, surely if you are a good person God would let you in even if you were an Atheist? Apparently he wont, to believe in Jesus is to be a good person and Atheists are just evil Heathens (yes I did point out that Heathenism is a religion of it's own and as Atheists by definition believe in no gods of any kind they couldn't be one).

I got kicked off the forum eventually for "preaching heresy" (read pointing out contradictions in the bible, putting froward the evidence for evolution, that sort of thing). Basically they couldn't answer my questions and that upset them.

Seriously the best arguments they came up with were all circular proofs, God wrote the bible, ergo the bible must be right, the bible says God did it, QED.
Y'know, this is why I don't tend to get into the religious threads. You're just never going to argue someone out of their religious beliefs. It's just not going to happen. Trying to get devout people to admit they're wrong about what they believe is a fool's game, IMHO.


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Old 12-13-2006, 04:44 PM   #39
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@jon_hill987: I'm a Christian and I certainly don't think you have to go to church to get into Heaven.
Yeah, no where in the Bible does it say 'Thou art going to Hell if thou dost not attend Church'. However, you miss out on some of the benefits, tangible and intangible, when you aren't part of a community as a Christian. When you go to church (and you have to find one you like), you share time with God and other Christians. When good and bad things happen, you share those things with others who share your faith and have a similar worldview.
Some things are very practical benefits as well. When I was in a car accident when I was 36 weeks pregnant, (everyone was fine, thank goodness), Jimbo took the train home and walked over to our church a block away to ask if someone could give him a ride to the hospital, and several people were more than happy to help him out and give him a ride not only to the hospital but waited and gave him a ride back to the car (which was safe to drive). After I had my youngest by c-section, our Sunday school got together and brought over meals for us after Jimbo went back to work. They did this every other day or so for 2 weeks, and it was a huge help because we didn't have any family living nearby who could come in to help, and taking care of an infant after major surgery is just plain hard. They checked to make sure we were all right, talked with me (I needed the adult conversation ), offered to pick up things at the store for us, take laundry up and down stairs for us (I wasn't supposed to carry anything heavy or do stairs) and many other little things that are really difficult to do when you're in that situation. They prayed for an uneventful recovery (which it was, happily) and mini-Jae's good health, and just knowing they were thinking of us was an encouragement.
I don't want to imply in the least that non-Christians don't have a small community of friends or folks in their respective houses of worship who would help out in a similar fashion, because they certainly do. However, I do think it's part of Christian culture to help each other out and so I think it's easier for us to serve as each other's safety nets in hard times. It's important to be part of a church community not only so you can help others, but so others can help you also when you have a difficult situation to deal with, in addition to being with others of like faith for worship.

@jon--you ask a very difficult question, and there's no really good answer to it because the Bible doesn't say a whole lot about good-hearted non-believers. If you're an atheist and there really isn't a God, then you don't have to worry about it. And please don't take this wrong, because I'm really just curious about this--if you're an atheist and decline to believe in God, why do you want to be with Him in heaven and have a relationship with Him there but not here?


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Old 03-06-2007, 10:21 PM   #40
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I think I found a similar video on Youtube! in the begining, we see a guy who needs to go back to school!

Clicky


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