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Old 11-10-2006, 12:15 PM   #1
The Sith'ari
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Would Exile's wound weaken Revan?

OK, first i'd like to clarify for the thread that I started that's been closed by Chainz.2da, that the purpose of that thread wasn't really just Revan v. Exile, but rather whether Exile's ability to draw power upon other force sensitives would weaken Revan, and thus how the two would eventually compare to each other. And as it's possible that the two would meet and fight together in the unknown regions, thus the exile having an opportunity to "draw upon Revan's power", I think it's related to K3 and that's why I put it in K3's forum territory. But since what's closed is closed, and seeing that my topic is highly related to the exile's wound in the force, I'd put it in the K2 territory with wordings that are less misleading.

So, I wonder how Exile's wound in the force, and thus his ability to draw power upon other force sensitives, would affect Revan. Would it weaken him? And if it does, would Exile be able to take on Revan?
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Old 11-10-2006, 12:21 PM   #2
SilentScope001
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Well, a Force Bond would need to be formed with Revan. All The Exile needs to do is to basically get Revan to give him a Force Bond. Of course, the Bond can works both ways. The Exile can steal Force from Revan...and Revan could steal Force from the Exile. I wouldn't be suprised if they both are allied...that's how Force Bonds usually work. And if they are allied, then The Exile and Revan would not attack each other, and the point is moot. However...

Revan knows about Force Bonds, but according to HK-47, knows that Exile's Force Bonds serve also a weakness. I believe that Revan stationed Exile over at Malachor V because he knew that the Exile wouldn't be converted to his side. He wanted The Exile to activate the Mass Shadow Generator, hoping that either the Exile dies in the ensuring explosion...or that his ability to make Force Bonds will make him feel much pain. Revan bets that either Exile will crack and become a slave of the Dark Side, or die in the pain.

But Revan didn't know that the Exile would give up the Force. And now that the Exile is back, and gained the ability to use Force Bonds, well. Revan knows that the ability of the Exile to make Force Bonds is still the Exile's greatness weakness, as well as his greatest strength. I wouldn't be suprised if Revan knows how to counter the Force Bond yet again, and get the Exile destroyed.

I wonder though, if The Exile would really would want to find Revan so that he can serve under him. I believe that Revan tried to get rid of The Exile, by sending him to Malachor V. Prehaps the Exile is following Revan for revenge, not because he admired him.
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Old 11-10-2006, 12:37 PM   #3
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You're saying as if one can choose whether to create force bonds. But I suppose the contrary, that force bonds are naturally formed?

Yes, indeed, I wonder how Revan finds the return of the exile to him in the unknown regions. An ally against the true sith, or a weakness of him against the enemy? Coz, suppose a force bond is formed between them during their long journey in the unknown space, any pain or death of the exile might cause the same to Revan.

And, yeah, that's what I'd like to discuss, but not just Revan v. Exile. Chainz, sorry for misleading you with the title I put in the thread in the K3 territory, but I wish you'd read the content more carefully that I wasn't merely trying to pull a thread about Revan v. Exile. Having one's own thread misunderstood and closed feels just...a bit sad.
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Old 11-11-2006, 10:10 AM   #4
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The Exile's "wound" won't weaken Revan, because I was under the opinion that the destruction of Malachor V once and for all dispersed the wound altogether. Wasn't that the point of destroying Malachor? If I am wrong, and the wound still exists, the yes; Revan could be put in danger if the Exile were to fall in battle. However, Revan also developed strong force bonds, and as such, it would be interesting to see how this is handled in K3 considering that they both form potent force bonds very easily, and also as to whom would be considered the Master and the Apprentice.

I realise that with this I am veering off topic, but the thought has now entered my head: Revan was powerful, yes. He was able to defeat his old friend turned Sith. However, the Exile was brought back from the brink of no-return, recovered her (cannon ) link to the force, obliterated the three major Sith Lords of the decade, and then proceeded to go find his old ally in a place where very few have explored, much less returned from.

Just my contibution to making things that much more confusing. :P

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Old 11-11-2006, 10:46 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldberry
The Exile's "wound" won't weaken Revan, because I was under the opinion that the destruction of Malachor V once and for all dispersed the wound altogether. Wasn't that the point of destroying Malachor?
The wound is not caused by Malachor itself, and so Malachor V's destruction would not influence it, unless we're talking about the significance it might have on the Exile on a more emotional level. Certainly Malachor is important, it's where the wound was formed, but the physical location itself won't have much impact. You have to note why the wound happened. It was not because of Malachor - the location was incidental. It was because of Revan's corruption and the devastation that took place there.

The wound was caused because the Exile denied the will of the force itself. The Exile was corrupted by Revan's influence as much as anyone, but unlike other jedi, the Exile had the ability to resist the fate that was imposed on all those jedi. The Exile had an option that nobody else did - to cut off his connection to the force. All others had to either die or else fall to the dark side, as Revan intended.

And note what the masters say on Dantooine:

Vrook: "So you think. It is not the strength of a Jedi you feel."

Zez-Kai Ell: "He's right. It's... all the death you've caused to get here. You feed on it, and you grow stronger. You're like Malachor... it's in you, it's what you are now."

Kavar: "You must have noticed as you've fought across all these planets, killing hundreds - only to become more and more powerful. Why do you think that was?But what's worse, is that bonding you have - it hasn't gone away. It's gotten stronger, and the more attachments you form, the more you draw others to you."

You may say this is all before the Exile goes to Malachor, but note what Kreia says at the end.

Kreia: "But in you... I see the potential to see the Force die, to turn away from its will. And that is what pleases me.You are beautiful to me, exile. A dead spot in the Force, an emptiness in which its will might be denied. I use it as I would use a poison, and in the hopes of understanding it, I will learn the way to kill it.But perhaps these are the excuses of an old woman who has grown to rely on a thing she despises."

So what was the destruction of Malachor V about? Well, note what Kreia says to the unconscious LS Exile on Dantooine, after she has killed the masters:

Kriea: "There is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface, drowns them in the power of the dark side - it corrupts all life. And it feeds on death. Revan knew the power of such places... and the power in making them. They can be used to break the will of others... of Jedi, promising them power, and turning them to the dark side.Did you never wonder how Revan corrupted so many of the Jedi, so much of the Republic, so quickly?The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion.Culminating a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from... save one.And that is what I sought to understand. How one could turn away from such power, give up the Force... and still live. But I see what happened now. It is because you had no choice.It is because you were afraid."

Now, if you're a good little jedi, then wouldn't you destroy such an evil place, so that it cannot be abused in such a way again? The knowledge and very surface of Malachor V is evil to the core and cannot be used for a good purpose. To try is to invite corruption. The Exile's choice was to see it destroyed before it could corrupt again, whether by accident or design.

And note the significance of what Kreia says at the end here in relation to the Exile's wound. It is essential to what the wound represents.

Finally, pay attention to what she says at the end, if you mention the option of destroying Malachor V:

Kreia: "More talk of machines and threats. If you would end Malachor, then do it. But it will not be a victory for you."

Doesn't exactly sound like it'll resolve anything for the Exile himself, does it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldberry
If I am wrong, and the wound still exists, the yes; Revan could be put in danger if the Exile were to fall in battle. However, Revan also developed strong force bonds, and as such, it would be interesting to see how this is handled in K3 considering that they both form potent force bonds very easily, and also as to whom would be considered the Master and the Apprentice.
The Exile is a natural leader because of the wound, but Revan is a powerful leader because of his abilities, and he is far more strong-willed than any of the Exile's companions. Besides, Revan is already aware of the Exile's abilities and would take his precautions. I think Revan would be the master and use the Exile for his own purposes, just as he did before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldberry
I realise that with this I am veering off topic, but the thought has now entered my head: Revan was powerful, yes. He was able to defeat his old friend turned Sith. However, the Exile was brought back from the brink of no-return, recovered her (cannon ) link to the force, obliterated the three major Sith Lords of the decade, and then proceeded to go find his old ally in a place where very few have explored, much less returned from.
IMHO the thing of it is that the Exile continues to be in denial about the nature of the force wound and its consequences throughout the game. Note how the Exile consistently avoids talking about stuff. Bao-Dur is never mentioned until he turns up. Kreia has to be one to tell Atton that the Exile fought on Dxun during the Mandalorian Wars. That the Exile was the only jedi to ever return to face judgment by the jedi council is discovered, never simply told by the Exile. And naturally, the Exile isn't even aware of the origin of the force wound, even though he caused it himself. He didn't even know that his "reconnection" with the force was due to how he siphoned force from others.

There are important issues related to the wound that are passed over and left unresolved during the plot, which I suspect may form the basis for a revelation in a KotOR3.


"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia

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Last edited by Jediphile; 11-11-2006 at 10:58 AM.
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Old 11-11-2006, 11:57 AM   #6
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Well...imo, the two Jedi don't have to use those bonds.
Besides...by surviving the death or Kreia the Exile has already proven she can get rid of bonds, kind of manage them.
For all we know, they just draw their lightsabers, and battle it out with instead of using the force.

But that isn't on topic...
The Wound of the exile. Okay. I think Revan wouldn't be shocked of it. He was there on Malachor himself too, and beheaded Mandlore (if i'm correct). I think Revan knows the horrors of war, and what can come of them. (His downfall, for example.)
He would just be shocked that someone could recover of that without turning DS (canon LS female). He might even conclude that the Exile is better then him on that matter. But then again...Revan has the raw power. The connection with the force, the gift, the training of both sides. (Imo, he recovered his memory after his first confrontation with Malak.) Dark Side powers combined with strong Jedi training and some pretty strong motivations such as Bastilla.
I think all that together would make sure he wouldn't be affected in any way by the Exile's wound.

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Old 11-11-2006, 12:58 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ztalker
Well...imo, the two Jedi don't have to use those bonds.
Besides...by surviving the death or Kreia the Exile has already proven she can get rid of bonds, kind of manage them.
For all we know, they just draw their lightsabers, and battle it out with instead of using the force.

That's not exacly how it's described in the game...

Zez-Kai Ell: "a bond between two living beings is not something easily broken. It not a choice... it is like breaking a feeling. Like turning away from the Force.To break a bond, your feelings would have to change, or one of you would have to die - but even then, the bond wouldn't go away, it would simply... it would simply be empty, a wound.{Becomes quieter at the end}One of you would have to die, but even then, the bond wouldn't go away, it would simply... it would simply be empty, a wound."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ztalker
But that isn't on topic...
The Wound of the exile. Okay. I think Revan wouldn't be shocked of it. He was there on Malachor himself too, and beheaded Mandlore (if i'm correct). I think Revan knows the horrors of war, and what can come of them. (His downfall, for example.)
Actually Revan wasn't present during the final battle, according to Bao-Dur and Mandalore in TSL:

Mandalore: "I hear that you were the one responsible for our defeat at Malachor V."

Bao-Dur: "The General told you that?"

Mandalore: "We fell into your trap at Malachor and we paid the price. We were eager to destroy the Republic fleet and defeat Revan. So we committed all of our forces to Malachor, sealing our doom."

Bao-Dur: "All your forces? But Revan was engaged with Mandalorians elsewhere."

Mandalore: "Even then, we might have won the day. The tide of battle was turning when the Republic finally set off their trap.We were almost completely destroyed. You should be proud."

There is even speculation that Revan stayed away on purpose, so that he would not be a casualty himself, the right manipulative bastard that he was at the time.

EDIT: Revan may also have been aware of the Exile's special abilities based on the following:

HK-47: "Observation: Master, this is purely speculation, but there is a certain strength in parading defeated leaders before their people.Perhaps Revan felt that your return to the Council in your state would show them what Jedi were capable of - and the cost. Revan often referred to you as a Jedi who was already dead, and felt your reception by the Council would further show you their hypocrisy.Considering the council's judgment, I see they did not receive your return well. Perhaps whatever anger they held for Revan they held against you."


"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia

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Last edited by Jediphile; 11-11-2006 at 01:14 PM.
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Old 11-11-2006, 01:13 PM   #8
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IMHO
The Exile represents how damaged the Jedi Philosophy has become. I don't believe the Exile will play a big role in the future. I personally believe that the Exile story was a stop over. Otherwords, Lucas and Obsidian wanted to make some cash fast, so they threw an idea together. If they continue the Revan storyarch, the Exile is the most least important character. I think the developer and publisher created the Exile to buy some time, so they can please the fans and make a quick buck. KotOR III will most likely be surounded around Revan's destiny. The Exile will not get a chanced to get near Revan; therefore, I don't believe that he/she will get close enough to weaken Revan.



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Old 11-11-2006, 02:43 PM   #9
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The Exile I think will remain key. Yes, Lucas and Obsidan wants to make cash fast...but so did Lucas and Bioware. That why they make KOTOR. If there was no cash to be made, oh well. No KOTOR to begin with.

The Exile will remain key IMHO. K3 may focus somewhat Revan's destiny, but The Exile is a strong person...and may be his sidekick. Or not. I personally hope the Exile stays behind and actually form the Jedi Order...because he knew of the corruption of the Jedi Philosophy and he must fix that Philosophy that spawned Revan and The Exile to begin with. Besides, by forming of the Jedi Order, a certain Padwan in the Order will be given a quest to find Revan...thereby, that Padawan will become rather key.

It's not as important as Revan. But he still has some power.

And it seems such a shame for such a character, who, IMHO, is more likable than Revan is, to be wasted by saying, "oooh, he dies before he leaves the galaxy." I can say the same thing to Revan and many of you would be screaming.
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Old 11-11-2006, 03:11 PM   #10
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My take on the Exile story is quite different. I took Kriea's statements as a way to end your companion's fate, and how you took off to nowhere as a way to close the chapter. In know Exile is going to find Revan, but his/her importance came off weak. I can invision him/her being killed off somewhere in between, or the Exile will just lingure in an unimportant storyarch. What drove me to KotOR II was a chance to see Revan again. I personally thought it should have created a new story to Revan. Instead, KotOR II opens up more questions and directions for his/her fate.

I just don't see the importance to Exile. Rumor has it that Exile was destined to die at the end of KotOR II.



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Old 11-11-2006, 03:36 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacCorp
IMHO
The Exile represents how damaged the Jedi Philosophy has become. I don't believe the Exile will play a big role in the future.
The Exile does represent how damaged jedi philosophy has become, I agree, but that is precisely why the Exile will be important in the future. Just note these specific comments in TSL, particulary when Kreia confronts the masters.

Kreia: "Step away!" {Hissing at Jedi}He has brought truth, and you condemn it? The arrogance!You will not harm him. You will not harm him ever again."

and a bit later

Kreia: "As you would pass judgment on him, I have come to pass judgment on you all. Do you wish to feel the teachings born of the Mandalorian Wars? Of all wars, of all tragedies that scream across the galaxy?Let me show you - you, who have forever seen the galaxy through the Force.Did you not hear its call on Dantooine, Vrook, on its scarred surface and in the minds of the settlers?I have endured your corruption of my other students - you shall not have this one. And you, Kavar, so close to the call of Dxun, tell me. Did you not feel what poured from the moon, what had taken place there? And Zez-Kai Ell, to hide upon Nar Shaddaa, yet blind yourself to all that happens there. So close to understanding the Force... so close to giving it up. See it through the eyes of the exile, as I have. Endure what he has endured, and perhaps there is the faintest hope that you will hear what he has heard. See it through the eyes of the exile.How could you ever hope to know the threat you face, when you have never walked in the dark places of the galaxy - faced war and death on such a scale. If you had traveled far enough, rather than waiting for the echo to reach you, perhaps you would have seen it for what it was."

The worst part of it is that Zez-Kai Ell even agrees with this assessment of the flaws of the jedi code, such at it is in this age, when you talk to him on Nar Shaddaa:

Zez-Kai Ell: "I, too, lost a Padawan on Malachor. Not to the battle, but to the alternative - to the teachings that Revan brought from the Unknown Regions. {Quiet}And I was not the only Jedi Master to watch a student turn on them. No, no - they were not to blame, but many of the Order did so - it was a difficult time, a time of strong emotion.Perhaps the Council, perhaps the Order itself had grown arrogant in their teachings. It is easy to cast blame, but it is perhaps time the Order accepted responsibility for their teachings, and their arrogance, and come to recognize that perhaps we are flawed.Not once did I hear one of the Council claim responsibility for Revan, for Exar Kun, for Ulic, for Malak... or for you. Yet... you were the only one who came back from the wars to face our judgment. And rather than attempting to understand why you did what you did, we punished you instead.{Frustrated}Our one chance to see where we had gone wrong, and we cast it aside. And now, that decision has come back to us, and may carry with it, our destruction. Perhaps there is something wrong in us, in our teachings. And though I tried, I could not cause that thought to leave me - so I left the Council."

The point is that the masters' teachings are flawed. In that Kreia is correct. The Exile proves it by his very existence as much as the masters prove it by their refusal to understand his nature and what it represents. Their fears may be understandable, but running and hiding will not bring them enlightenment. That they are ruled by fear and cling blindly to their dogmatic code is why Kreia eventually imposes capital punishment upon them all. She sees them as her students (which they may indeed all have been to some extent), but who have utterly failed to learn from the mistakes one time too many and must now be done away with. She is a cruel and uncaring master, but her assessment of their failures is correct, I think. The only thing that bothers me in the plot is that what Kavar and particularly Zez-Kai Ell say to the Exile on the first meeting does not fit entirely with the decision they later support on Dantooine.


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Old 11-11-2006, 03:49 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
The Exile does represent how damaged jedi philosophy has become, I agree, but that is precisely why the Exile will be important in the future. Just note these specific comments in TSL, particulary when Kreia confronts the masters.
(Snipped for space saving)
I see your argument. Maybe there is an importance. To have Jedi learn from someone who has felt war and death at a massive scale would be a gift. Exile would make a perfect teacher, and he/she would redesign the Jedi Code to create a new era. A Jedi Code more tollerant and understanding. Maybe the Jedi will learn when it is time for war, and when it is time for diplomacy. Good observation.

I agree with you on the Kavar and Zez-Kai Ell issue. When you hunt them down on Nar Shaddaa and Onderon, they come out and admit they have errored. Once you confront them in the enclave, they take a 360 degree approach to your actions. Someone should have thought about this when designing the game. Maybe they should have teamed up with Exile, and revailed Vrook as a Sith in hidding. Who knows.



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Old 11-12-2006, 04:19 PM   #13
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Oh I do so love it when Jediphile quotes my entire post and pokes fun at it... I'm kidding by the way; I seriously like how you do that because it really gives topics like this a kick

I see it as though the wound was at least lessened by the destruction of Malachor, and so the Exile wouldn't be so much of a leech anymore and may not be able to overcome Revan's will. Revan is reletively manipulative in all honesty, and while not being in Traya's league in that effect, he would probably still be the leader of the K3 party out of Exile and Revan.

About what MacCorp said about them arriving at the enclave and turning full circle, I believe that they respect Vrook's (misplaced) wisdom on the matter and take his side as they have to show a united front against what is possibly an end to the force.

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Old 11-25-2006, 02:50 PM   #14
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I think it is up to debate wether the Exile's wound still exists.

Revan is very powerful, it might not work on him the same way it does on other force sensitives. Besides, Revan always knew about that ability of the Exile. If there are ways to counter it, he would know.

If they ever fought in a duel, I think Revan would not be affected by it. Revan knows about the Exile's abilities, the same can't be said for the Exile.
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Old 11-27-2006, 05:42 PM   #15
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HANG ON, HANG ON,

The Wound in the force is when the force of force sensitves is drawn to the Exiles desidions dominating their will even if they know it. Kreia knew it, the jedi masters knew it. On top of that, He was a natural born leader. Everyone is drawn to the Exiles leadership, not siphoning their force. If the Exile meet Revan than most likely Revan would follow him or be killed by Exile. Thats another thing to, the exile is dead to the force, he doen't follow the will of the force, and that ties to the leadership to the NPC's. I can go on and on about this but I'm sure you don't , I just want to make a point. Oh If any of this was repeated before me, I'm sorry I just don't wan't read all of those things.



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