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View Poll Results: What are y'all opinions on the FCC?
I hate it; time to take it outback and have it shot 3 20.00%
It's ok 3 20.00%
We need the FCC; for balance or to protect children's innocence 8 53.33%
It's got to go 1 6.67%
Voters: 15. You may not vote on this poll


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Old 11-25-2006, 04:42 PM   #121
Samuel Dravis
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
So, by having footage of soldiers gunned down by Insurgents, them being captured and tortured to death, you hope that enough pressure will be placed on Bush for him to abandon the Iraqi people and bring the troops home? Iraq was a mistake, no question, but wouldn't there then be a massive backlash for not trying to fix the mess that was created by going into Iraq in the first place?
Like I said before, it needen't be graphic. It simply would have to convey unmistakably what is happening.

I would like for the troops to come back. However, if everyone is given a quite clear depiction of the reality of war and they still want it, I can live with that. I of course disagree, but I wouldn't want to subvert the democratic process. We'd just have to live with ourselves after we're done.

If there is a backlash then I daresay it can't be worse than how leaving Vietnam tarnished our reputation. Sometimes knowing when to quit can be a good thing. If we did I'd say one of the factions would gain control of the government and start a theocracy just like we've been supposedly against all along, but at least it wouldn't be a war zone.

Perhaps if this kind of exposure was in place beforehand, we wouldn't have leaders so willing to start unnecessary wars. They'd at least know that they'd be getting some extremely negative publicity, and not all of it would come from easily demonized/marginalized factions of politics like the opposing party.

EDIT: I agree with Spider on his points as well.


"Words are deeds." - Wittgenstein

Last edited by Samuel Dravis; 11-25-2006 at 04:55 PM.
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Old 11-25-2006, 04:58 PM   #122
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Let me ask something if I may. If this did happen how would you feel if there were people who hated Bush, hate the fact we're in Iraq, hate America, cheer the deaths of Americans they see on TV and cheer their killers when they are seen commiting these killings?
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Old 11-25-2006, 05:15 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
Let me ask something if I may. If this did happen how would you feel if there were people who hated Bush, hate the fact we're in Iraq, hate America, cheer the deaths of Americans they see on TV and cheer their killers when they are seen commiting these killings?
I wouldn't mind much. It's free speech, of course. They're entitled to their own opinion, and I cannot say they are totally unjustified in their hatred. The only thing that I wouldn't want allowed is for them to be cheered on (i.e., encouraging more killing). I don't want that allowed for our side either. It amounts to saying killing is good, and I don't think it is ever good. It may be justified in some circumstances, but it is not good.


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Old 11-25-2006, 05:21 PM   #124
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How would your sister feel about it knowing her fiance is over there, or God forbid should he become a casultie?
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Old 11-25-2006, 05:34 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``:

Let me ask something if I may. If this did happen how would you feel if there were people who hated Bush, hate the fact we're in Iraq, hate America, cheer the deaths of Americans they see on TV and cheer their killers when they are seen commiting these killings?
Your mind refuses to face the conclusion: If we accept the obvious fact that our war in Iraq was unjustified, amoral and self-interested, we must also accept the fact that as an invading force, we can't complain about people's poor opinion of us.

The Iraqis have been HORRIBLY WRONGED. If they decided to cheer when our soldiers die... they have a right to do so. We invaded their country. We demolished their economy. It's OUR FAULT. Not their fault, ours.

Further, if our soldiers die out in Iraq, it's our fault. We weren't defending ourselves by invading. We weren't being altruistic. So all these young men and women who have been lied to and subjected to idiotic recruitment advertising campaigns... They're dying and being wounded for the sake of an amoral invasion. Our fault.

Thirdly, the insurgents' actions against our forces are routinely called terrorism by our government and our media. But since when has attacking an illegally occupying military force been terrorism? It's the most ludicrous nonsense I've ever heard. Our invasion could technically be called terrorism. The subsequent attacks on our soldiers CANNOT by definition be terrorism. Terrorism is targetting civilians, for ideological reasons.

Our armies aren't "the good guys". Our armies are out there ruining other nations. That's why people hate us. Not because they're "jealous" or because they "hate democracy". It's because we go around crushing people into submission. I can cite many more examples than Iraq, too.


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Old 11-25-2006, 05:49 PM   #126
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It's true that women like strong men. Arrogance, however, and an ego the size of Mars, is a complete turn off.

Now that I got that off my chest how many times have I said that ****ing going into ****ing Iraq was a ****ing mistake? Let me reiterate. ****ing going into ****ing Iraq was a ****ing mistake. 与性交的进入与伊拉克性交是一个该死的差错。與性交的進入與伊拉克性交是一個該死的差錯。** **ing die in het ****ing van Irak gaat was een ****ing fout. Das Scheisse Einsteigen in das Bumsen von von dem Irak war ein ****ing Fehler. Το ****ing που πηγαίνει το Ιράκ ήταν ένα ****ing λάθος. Entrare vaffunculo nello scopare Irak era un errore ****ing. イラクの性交に性交に入ることはとても間違いだった。이라크를 성교하기로 성교에게 감것은 지독한 과오 이었다. Entrar fodendo em foder Iraq era um erro do caralho. ****ing идти в ****ing Ирак была ****ing ошибка. Does that make it clearer?
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Old 11-25-2006, 05:53 PM   #127
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Typical, disagree with a neoconservative and they accuse you of arrogance.

Look, you're still ignoring the truth. It wasn't a mistake.

"OOPS! I've accidentally invaded Iraq with my thousands of fellow accidental good-guys."

It was a deliberate invasion for financial and political gain. I've tried my best to show you as much evidence as possible to convince you of this self-evident truth... but you're just not absorbing it. Please... absorb it.


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Old 11-25-2006, 05:56 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
It's true that women like strong men. Arrogance, however, and an ego the size of Mars, is a complete turn off.

Now that I got that off my chest how many times have I said that ****ing going into ****ing Iraq was a ****ing mistake? Let me reiterate. ****ing going into ****ing Iraq was a ****ing mistake. 与性交的进入与伊拉克性交是一个该死的差错。與性交的進入與伊拉克性交是一個該死的差錯。** **ing die in het ****ing van Irak gaat was een ****ing fout. Das Scheisse Einsteigen in das Bumsen von von dem Irak war ein ****ing Fehler. Το ****ing που πηγαίνει το Ιράκ ήταν ένα ****ing λάθος. Entrare vaffunculo nello scopare Irak era un errore ****ing. イラクの性交に性交に入ることはとても間違いだった。이라크를 성교하기로 성교에게 감것은 지독한 과오 이었다. Entrar fodendo em foder Iraq era um erro do caralho. ****ing идти в ****ing Ирак была ****ing ошибка. Does that make it clearer?
You got me cracking up.
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Old 11-25-2006, 06:01 PM   #129
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Bush is the greatest evil the world has ever seen, is that what you want to hear?

Tough.
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Old 11-25-2006, 06:02 PM   #130
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Before Skinwalker locks this thread, can we get back on topic, please?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
It has taken four years, twenty-one thousand, seven hundred seventy-eight wounded and two thousand, eight hundred seventy-two dead Americans for it to get through. There have been a minimum of forty-seven thousand seven hundred eighty-one dead Iraqi civilians. I'd say it hasn't got through fast enough.
This right here is why I think far more media coverage and attention should be paid to the realities of the current Iraqi Conquest. I know I've seen the report of the 3000th US death in Iraq about five times. It's not that I think there should be vivid, glowing coverage of brutal torture and death on US airwaves, but by allowing the US government to heavily censor any and all information about the true cost of the war, the US public is handing them carte blanche to make things up as they go along and deprive the public of the information necessary to make informed decisions about the way their country conducts its business. And that's a very dangerous state of affairs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
Now that I got that off my chest how many times have I said that ****ing going into ****ing Iraq was a ****ing mistake? Let me reiterate. ****ing going into ****ing Iraq was a ****ing mistake. 与性交的进入与伊拉克性交是一个该死的差错。與性交的進入與伊拉克性交是一個該死的差錯。** **ing die in het ****ing van Irak gaat was een ****ing fout. Das Scheisse Einsteigen in das Bumsen von von dem Irak war ein ****ing Fehler. Το ****ing που πηγαίνει το Ιράκ ήταν ένα ****ing λάθος. Entrare vaffunculo nello scopare Irak era un errore ****ing. イラクの性交に性交に入ることはとても間違いだった。이라크를 성교하기로 성교에게 감것은 지독한 과오 이었다. Entrar fodendo em foder Iraq era um erro do caralho. ****ing идти в ****ing Ирак была ****ing ошибка. Does that make it clearer?
Nancy, if this is the sh!t you want to talk, just go hang around on the Grand Theft Auto forums. Splash around in the kiddie pool until you've got it out of your system and quit embarrasing yourself.


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Last edited by Mace MacLeod; 11-26-2006 at 11:50 AM. Reason: Stupidity Alert
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Old 11-25-2006, 06:08 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
Bush is the greatest evil the world has ever seen, is that what you want to hear?

Tough.
Are you talking to Spider ?
You know I don't believe, Bush is the greatest evil the world has ever seen.
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Old 11-25-2006, 06:09 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
How would your sister feel about it knowing her fiance is over there, or God forbid should he become a casultie?
How she feels about it doesn't change the facts, and those are that 1) they have the right to free speech, 2) they are not completely unjustified in their anger, and 3) I'd rather they vent on TV and not with an AK; words don't kill people.

I wouldn't feel the best about him dying over there either. He's a pretty nice guy. I would still have to tell her that she'd be wrong about completely censoring them from the tv though, and I definitely wouldn't like that. Still, I think she would see what I mean, even if she would be angry about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
Bush is the greatest evil the world has ever seen, is that what you want to hear?

Tough.
No, I don't think he is. Hitler was worse.

Seriously, we are not attacking you personally Nancy. I've never asked if you think Bush is evil, and I don't think you need to pass judgement on Bush at all to talk about censorship being a good/bad thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mace McLeod
Nancy, if this is the sh!t you want to talk, just go hang around on the Grand Theft Auto forums. Splash around in the kiddie pool until you've got it out of your system and quit embarrasing yourself.
Mace, please stop. This is a good discussion. :/


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Old 11-25-2006, 06:19 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis:

How she feels about it doesn't change the facts, and those are that 1) they have the right to free speech, 2) they are not completely unjustified in their anger, and 3) I'd rather they vent on TV and not with an AK; words don't kill people.

I wouldn't feel the best about him dying over there either. He's a pretty nice guy. I would still have to tell her that she'd be wrong about completely censoring them from the tv though, and I definitely wouldn't like that. Still, I think she would see what I mean, even if she would be angry about it.
Samuel's stance here is morally courageous. Censorship of wartime casualties and atrocities is never justified, no matter how upsetting the images might be to some people. Even if those close to you would be upset by honest reporting, you must campaign for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``:

Bush is the greatest evil the world has ever seen, is that what you want to hear?

Tough.
Either you're so flustered that you're ignoring what people are saying, or you're trolling. For the fiftieth time, Bush is an irrelevance, a figurehead, he's not in control, he's the transient public face of a shambolic and corrupt ruling elite who ARE in control.

What do I want to hear? Well I'd like to hear you actually admit that the US has committed gratuitous war crimes by invading Iraq. Not going to happen of course, but it would be nice. Honesty is always nice.


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Old 11-25-2006, 06:24 PM   #134
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Uh huh. Like you ignoring topics and attacking faults in others rather than admit you're wrong?
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Old 11-25-2006, 06:28 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
Mace, please stop. This is a good discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
Now that I got that off my chest how many times have I said that ****ing going into ****ing Iraq was a ****ing mistake? Let me reiterate. ****ing going into ****ing Iraq was a ****ing mistake. 与性交的进入与伊拉克性交是一个该死的差错。與性交的進入與伊拉克性交是一個該死的差錯。** **ing die in het ****ing van Irak gaat was een ****ing fout. Das Scheisse Einsteigen in das Bumsen von von dem Irak war ein ****ing Fehler. Το ****ing που πηγαίνει το Ιράκ ήταν ένα ****ing λάθος. Entrare vaffunculo nello scopare Irak era un errore ****ing. イラクの性交に性交に入ることはとても間違いだった。이라크를 성교하기로 성교에게 감것은 지독한 과오 이었다. Entrar fodendo em foder Iraq era um erro do caralho. ****ing идти в ****ing Ирак была ****ing ошибка. Does that make it clearer?
Define "good".

I stand by my remarks.


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Old 11-25-2006, 06:39 PM   #136
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If you think the US shouldn't have invaded Iraq, then you hate Bush and think the US shouldn't have fought Hitler either! Oh, and invading Iraq was a mistake. I can throw tantrums about that and not look like an idiot while still slamming anyone who doesn't support the ongoing occupation, right?

()

As for the censor, I say drop it. Warnings prior to "strong" scenes will do by far. That, and there's just more and more digital Parent Control stuff that lets mum and dad control what their kiddies watch without said mom and dad even needing to come home.

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Old 11-25-2006, 06:52 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``:

Uh huh. Like you ignoring topics and attacking faults in others rather than admit you're wrong?
Perhaps you'd care to provide any evidence that I'm wrong about anything that I've asserted in this thread... if you can. I've provided much evidence in the form of logical argument to support my assertion that YOU'RE wrong. The least you can do is reciprocate.

As for ignoring topics... I haven't brought any subject up out of the blue in this thread. I have responded to others' comments only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mace MacLeod:

Define "good".

I stand by my remarks.
And apart from your use of profanity, I stand by your remarks as well Mace.


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Old 11-25-2006, 06:57 PM   #138
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@DE: Hey, where's the quote tags! Don't napster me here, dude!


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Old 11-25-2006, 07:51 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mace MacLeod
Define "good".
I'll define it as "interesting enough that I don't want it closed and no one talk about it any more." Whether the comments are warranted or not, that's probably going to be the result if the personal attacks keep up - so please, don't do it. I realize this is an a forum on the internet and we need a flame war once in a while just to be true to ourselves, but let's not be hasty turning this topic into one.


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Old 11-25-2006, 08:45 PM   #140
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^^^Imagine if the profanity blocker also worked in German...

Anyway...moving on...nothing to see here folks...

Censorship = bad!
Parental responsibility = good!
windu6 in charge of tv programming = really bad!


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Old 11-25-2006, 11:38 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by windu6
This is not my problem, what other people kids see.
It is everyone's problem. The hallmark of a civil society is that it protects those who are most vulnerable.
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But, for violence I still don't see the big deal, Myself, my sister and brother with their friends grew up looking at violence on TV, we didn't turn out evil or violent.
I took a college psychology course entitled Children and Television. In it, we looked at studies that showed a strong correlation between viewing violent television programs and engaging in violent behavior. Basically, television programming is much more violent than normal life. Children see this and believe that the world is more violent than it really is. They are then more likely to perceive even neutral acts as intentionally violent and will respond in kind. It's a phenomenon known as cultivation. I would have to do some digging to find the sources for this, but, if you want, I can look.


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Old 11-25-2006, 11:44 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
I took a college psychology course entitled Children and Television. In it, we looked at studies that showed a strong correlation between viewing violent television programs and engaging in violent behavior. Basically, television programming is much more violent than normal life. Children see this and believe that the world is more violent than it really is. They are then more likely to perceive even neutral acts as intentionally violent and will respond in kind. It's a phenomenon known as cultivation. I would have to do some digging to find the sources for this, but, if you want, I can look.
The world is incredibly violent. Don't say that children are being influenced by television to believe that the world is more violent than it is. They're being shown the TRUE nature of the world - not just the sheltered view that parents want their children to see.

Perhaps those studies just show something that is obvious - kids who are violent off the bat are more likely to be drawn towards watching violent shows.

What's MORE likely to cause children to be violent is when parents are beating their kids, using corporal punishment, because that shows that violence is ACCEPTABLE if it gets you results. Watching violence on television and seeing your PARENTS engaging in a violent act is nothing comparable. Children do what their parents do - parents who smoke are more likely to have children who smoke, and fat parents are more likely to have fat children. Just as parents who strike their children are likely to have those children grow up to use violence as a way to get what they want.
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Old 11-25-2006, 11:58 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
You want argue about contradictions in my opinions.
Don't you get it? If your arguments have contradictions, they are invalid arguments. In a debate tournament, I'd win on the spot for your inconsistencies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
Then explain Good God in your quote below, you are a atheist you don't believe in God so how can you called it good.
*Sighs* Three things...

1. "Good God!" when put in that context is an expression of shock, not an appraisal of God.

2. My lack of religion doesn't mean I can't use expressions. Even with your anti-God views, I imagine you've said "Holy ****!" or something similar in your life.

3. Religion and all arguments related to it are irrelevant in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
And don't come up with that bullsh*t that this is impertinent
Er, do you know what that means? You used it in an improper context.


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Old 11-26-2006, 12:20 AM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mace MacLeod
I think not showing them does a tremendous disservice both to the dead and their families. Instead of honouring their sacrifices, the government is sweeping them under the rug and treating them like a dirty little secret that shouldn't ever be shown or mentioned. By doing so, they're just trying to keep the voting public confronted with as few reminders as possible that the war the US started really is a shooting war, not just some abstract concept of something going on "over there", far away from anyone's daily life. And the more remote and abstract it becomes in the public's mind, the less important it becomes to stop it or pay close attention to just what the US government is running around doing.
I disagree that it honors their sacrifice by displaying their coffins for the entire world to see. If Jimbo died, I wouldn't want his flag-draped coffin on cable news for the entire world to see (and terrorists to laugh at). His death would be a private affair for me and my family; not me, my family, and untold millions deciding to enjoy a little voyeurism on his death at my family's expense. No thank you.

There is the other very real issue of security/safety for the family--we have people in the US actually robbing homes when they know the family is gone at a funeral. I wouldn't want the risk of millions of people knowing who he was, who I was, where he lived, how they can find his widow and her children because they know 'the man of the house' isn't coming home, especially if they know my family would be receiving a life insurance check. There are some real wackos out there that I don't want knowing my husband had just croaked. It's all too easy to figure out when burials are going to be when you see the coffins on the plane. I also wouldn't want Katie Couric shoving a microphone in my face at the wake and asking me "So, how does it feel to know your husband got blown to bits by an IED?" On average, about 2 soldiers are dying per day (don't quote me on the math--I'm roughing it)--it's not that hard to see a coffin on a particular day and figure out just who it belongs to and then go pester (or do something worse) to the family.

I can't possibly miss the fact that we're in a shooting war--the media makes a point every single day of saying who got blown up, by whom, when it happened, how it happened, how many people died on each side, how many civilians got killed or injured, you name it. I'm not saying don't publicize information on casualties--I think it's important for people to have some information available. However, the needs of the family in regards to their deceased loved one vastly outweigh any need of the media or the government to show dead people in order to 'get the news out'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK
Children do what their parents do - parents who smoke are more likely to have children who smoke, and fat parents are more likely to have fat children. Just as parents who strike their children are likely to have those children grow up to use violence as a way to get what they want.
That doesn't quite follow. Children may, for instance, be more likely to be overweight when their parents are overweight, but that isn't because the parents are shoving food down their kids' throats. There are a ton of physical issues that come into play in that, e.g. genetics, metabolism, etc.

My city is not nearly as violent as what's seen on CSI (of any flavor), the Sopranos, Scarface, anything by Tarantino, and so on. In fact, most peoples' days are pretty darn boring--they get up, take a shower, get dressed, drink their coffee and have breakfast, go to work, have some lunch, work some more, go home, have dinner with their families, watch a little TV, go to bed....wash, rinse, repeat. There are a lot more violent things happening on the TV shows I happen to watch than happen here in the Real World. Any cop will tell you just how unrealistic a lot of cop shows can be in terms of the amount of action they see vs. the amount of time they spend making phone calls to track down leads, write reports, and totally other boring things.


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Old 11-26-2006, 12:23 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Don't you get it? If your arguments have contradictions, they are invalid arguments. In a debate tournament, I'd win on the spot for your inconsistencies.
What the hell you mean you won?
Who the hell said, this was a contest?
opinions~bias
Got it?

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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
*Sighs* Three things...

1. "Good God!" when put in that context is an expression of shock, not an appraisal of God.

2. My lack of religion doesn't mean I can't use expressions. Even with your anti-God views, I imagine you've said "Holy ****!" or something similar in your life.

3. Religion and all arguments related to it are irrelevant in this thread.
Well, I guess I'm blinded by hate because I don't say good God or Holy Sh*t.
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Old 11-26-2006, 12:31 AM   #146
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What the hell you mean you won?
In an actual debate, yes, I would have.

Even in this case, however, it is clear my arguments have more merit than yours. Unless you can come up with new ones for your side of the issue, we have nothing further to debate about it. Discussing is another matter, though.

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Originally Posted by windu6
Well, I guess I'm blinded by hate because I don't say good God or Holy Sh*t.
Your beliefs are irrelevant. I was explaining why I said "Good God!"


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Old 11-26-2006, 12:43 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
In an actual debate, yes, I would have.

Even in this case, however, it is clear my arguments have more merit than yours. Unless you can come up with new ones for your side of the issue, we have nothing further to discuss about it.
I didn't ever plan to have a debate on my opinions.
My plan was to see other people opinions.
You started this debate about my opinions.


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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Your beliefs are irrelevant. I was explaining why I said "Good God!"
I know what the hell you was explaining, Devon.
I was saying I don't say that in context of shock.
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Old 11-26-2006, 01:03 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
The world is incredibly violent. Don't say that children are being influenced by television to believe that the world is more violent than it is. They're being shown the TRUE nature of the world - not just the sheltered view that parents want their children to see.
Television DOES NOT COME CLOSE to the true nature of the world. At the Annenberg School for Communication at the University of Pennsylvania, studies on television programming revealed the following:
1) Males comprise 65% of the roles on TV. In reality, more than half the world population is female.
2) About 350 characters are portrayed on prime time TV each night, and seven get murdered. At that rate, the world population would be down to less than one in just over three years.
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Perhaps those studies just show something that is obvious - kids who are violent off the bat are more likely to be drawn towards watching violent shows.
Children who have previously shown violent behavior are more attracted to violent programs. However, George Gerbner has conducted some outstanding research that controlled for this and showed how preschoolers who were shown violent programs then went on to be more violent with their classmates than did the children who watched nonviolent programs.

Quote:
What's MORE likely to cause children to be violent is when parents are beating their kids, using corporal punishment, because that shows that violence is ACCEPTABLE if it gets you results... Just as parents who strike their children are likely to have those children grow up to use violence as a way to get what they want.
The problem with all the "cycle of violence" research is that it is all retrospective. I don't think anyone disputes that violence begets violence, but the research is lacking to prove it. What is really lacking is any research that shows negative outcomes from normal spanking. There just is no proof that spanking kids in a controlled manner as part of a well-rounded discipline system causes violent behavior later in life. There is, however, good evidence that children who watch violent television programs are more violent later in life than those who do not.


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Old 11-26-2006, 01:10 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
It is everyone's problem. The hallmark of a civil society is that it protects those who are most vulnerable.
Not every child is vulnerable, to violent images.

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I took a college psychology course entitled Children and Television. In it, we looked at studies that showed a strong correlation between viewing violent television programs and engaging in violent behavior. Basically, television programming is much more violent than normal life. Children see this and believe that the world is more violent than it really is. They are then more likely to perceive even neutral acts as intentionally violent and will respond in kind. It's a phenomenon known as cultivation. I would have to do some digging to find the sources for this, but, if you want, I can look.
Those studies are flawed, in my opinion.
I only kick ass, if I have to.
I don't like the use of violence, if it is pointless to used it.
I don't trust studies; they are still studying.
Studies change with time.
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Old 11-26-2006, 01:13 AM   #150
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This is a religious quote so I'm not sure how far it'll fly with some of you, but Jesus once said "He who is without sin cast the first stone." What this basically means is that we're eager to be judge jury and executioner on the FCC, Bush, whatever. Perhaps a bit more time could be spent looking at our own faults.
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Old 11-26-2006, 01:29 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by windu6
Not every child is vulnerable, to violent images.
Not every child, but enough that we need to protect them.
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Those studies are flawed, in my opinion.
How are they flawed? I read them and found them to be methodologically sound. So did the editors of the journals and the reviewers who went over the articles prior to publication. How can you even say the studies are flawed if you don't know what studies I am referring to? In order for you to have a basis for your decision, I did some searching and found this website with a ton of references to look up. http://www.georgegerbner.net After you have actually looked at the research, come back and say what the flaws were in the studies.

Forgive me, but I think just about everyone would agree that the facts presented in peer-reviewed scientific journals carry more validity than your opinions.


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Old 11-26-2006, 01:41 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by jimbo fett 66
How are they flawed? I read them and found them to be methodologically sound. So did the editors of the journals and the reviewers who went over the articles prior to publication. How can you even say the studies are flawed if you don't know what studies I am referring to? In order for you to have a basis for your decision, I did some searching and found this website with a ton of references to look up. http://www.georgegerbner.net After you have actually looked at the research, come back and say what the flaws were in the studies.

Forgive me, but I think just about everyone would agree that the facts presented in peer-reviewed scientific journals carry more validity than your opinions.
Yeah, like I was saying, I'm not evil my sister is not evil and my brother and their friends aren't evil or violent.
I don't trust no damn studies, Jimbo.
Those studies are just local microscopic evidence, not globle.
Which I mean, they don't account for every single child on this planet.
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Old 11-26-2006, 01:57 AM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
Yeah, like I was saying, I'm not evil my sister is not evil and my brother and their friends aren't evil or violent.
I don't trust no damn studies, Jimbo.
Those studies are just local microscopic evidence, not globle.
Which I mean, they don't account for every single child on this planet.
The study has to have enough subjects in it to be valid, and they try to control for variables like age, gender, race, etc. I've seen a number of studies that were huge, multi-university studies done with tens of thousands of patients over a number of years, and their research directly shapes some of what's done in my office in terms of patient treatment. These studies are what have advanced medicine and science. They can't be ignored because one or two people aren't happy with the findings.

Obviously not every kid is included in these studies, but enough have been that we can make some conclusions about how violence affects children.


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Old 11-26-2006, 02:07 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
The study has to have enough subjects in it to be valid, and they try to control for variables like age, gender, race, etc. I've seen a number of studies that were huge, multi-university studies done with tens of thousands of patients over a number of years, and their research directly shapes some of what's done in my office in terms of patient treatment. These studies are what have advanced medicine and science. They can't be ignored because one or two people aren't happy with the findings.
They are still experimenting, that is why it is called a study.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Obviously not every kid is included in these studies, but enough have been that we can make some conclusions about how violence affects children
Yes, weak-minded children, that violence may have a strong effect on.
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Old 11-26-2006, 11:47 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by windu6
They are still experimenting, that is why it is called a study.
That does not negate the importance of such studies. If we found out aspirin protects thousands of people from heart attacks, does that mean a doctor should ignore giving it to his/her patients just because the study wasn't done on the entire world population? No. It's still very useful for us to know. The point of the study is that if you have a certain sample size, you can extrapolate the findings in that group to the population as a whole, if you've accounted for things like age/gender/race/etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
Yes, weak-minded children, that violence may have a strong effect on.
Quantify 'weak-minded'. The studies were done on a variety of children.

You may not like the results that violence does affect children to some degree or another. However, it happens, and the government needs to protect kids because the media industry obviously doesn't want to.
Just because some want to see violence and cuss-words doesn't mean that the FCC should allow children to be exposed to it as well.

And frankly, with all the violence in the world, maybe we all could do with a little less of it on our TVs anyway.


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Old 11-26-2006, 01:43 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi:

And frankly, with all the violence in the world, maybe we all could do with a little less of it on our TVs anyway.
Unlike you, I would rather spend my time campaigning against the violence in the world rather than campaigning against imaginary violence on the TV. The answer to the alleged problem of children being de-sensitised to violence through watching violent TV programmes... is increased parental responsibility, not increased censorship. If the TV is showing your child glamourised violence, don't let the child watch the TV. It's really that simple.

As an adult, I have a right to watch violent shows and movies if I so desire. Censorship infringes my rights, in order to do the job that parents of impressionable children should already be doing- protecting their kids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi:

I disagree that it honors their sacrifice by displaying their coffins for the entire world to see. If Jimbo died, I wouldn't want his flag-draped coffin on cable news for the entire world to see (and terrorists to laugh at). His death would be a private affair for me and my family; not me, my family, and untold millions deciding to enjoy a little voyeurism on his death at my family's expense. No thank you.
Unfortunately for yourself and Jimbo, once he decided to join an army that was participating in immoral and ill-advised actions in foreign lands, his actions, his life and- God forbid- his death, became the direct concern of the public that is footing the bill for the invasion.

The public right to see all the consequences of the wars that are being instigated in their name outweighs your personal desire to conceal the "flag-draped coffins" in case some terrorist somewhere decides to laugh maniacally at the images.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi:

There is the other very real issue of security/safety for the family--we have people in the US actually robbing homes when they know the family is gone at a funeral. I wouldn't want the risk of millions of people knowing who he was, who I was, where he lived, how they can find his widow and her children because they know 'the man of the house' isn't coming home, especially if they know my family would be receiving a life insurance check. There are some real wackos out there that I don't want knowing my husband had just croaked. It's all too easy to figure out when burials are going to be when you see the coffins on the plane.
The idea that showing anonymous coffins on a news report would decrease your personal safety in any meaningful way is ludicrous, bordering on paranoia. I can only assume that it's indicative of the same culture of fear that resulted in broad US public quiescence when confronted with the totally mis-named "Patriot Act".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi:

I'm not saying don't publicize information on casualties--I think it's important for people to have some information available. However, the needs of the family in regards to their deceased loved one vastly outweigh any need of the media or the government to show dead people in order to 'get the news out'.
Addressed above. Once again, the needs of the family do NOT outweigh the need of the public- who are subsidising this immoral occupation- to be made aware of ALL the consequences of the war that's being waged in their name. By concealing such powerful images from the public as pictures of the returning US/UK dead, the US/UK power centres are merely serving their own interests and using the "feelings of the family of the deceased" as a convenient excuse. And why? Because such images might spur more citizens into speaking out against the invasion. That's the last thing they want.


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Old 11-26-2006, 06:25 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
That does not negate the importance of such studies. If we found out aspirin protects thousands of people from heart attacks, does that mean a doctor should ignore giving it to his/her patients just because the study wasn't done on the entire world population? No. It's still very useful for us to know. The point of the study is that if you have a certain sample size, you can extrapolate the findings in that group to the population as a whole, if you've accounted for things like age/gender/race/etc.
I understand statistical patterns and data, Jae.
I know that I shouldn't discount the results completely.
But I'm still not convince, that violent images affect normal(but I still believe this definition is vague) kids strongly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Quantify 'weak-minded'. The studies were done on a variety of children.

You may not like the results that violence does affect children to some degree or another. However, it happens, and the government needs to protect kids because the media industry obviously doesn't want to.
Just because some want to see violence and cuss-words doesn't mean that the FCC should allow children to be exposed to it as well.
I mean, children with mental illness or diseases, easily influence by violent images or anything, can't reason good/evil or right/wrong choices properly, emotional instability, behavioral problems, and/or cognitive dysfunction or impairment.
For example: bipolar disorder(maybe), schizophrenia(maybe a est. 70% chance of probability), insanity, paranoia(Joseph Stalin), delusional(Joseph Stalin) sociopathic(maybe a high probability and I'm assuming Joseph Stalin) and certain personality types that may have a strong effect on which child, will be more affected by violent images and movies/programs on TV.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
And frankly, with all the violence in the world, maybe we all could do with a little less of it on our TVs anyway.
I'm not going into this again.

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Old 11-27-2006, 12:10 AM   #158
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Unlike you, I would rather spend my time campaigning against the violence in the world rather than campaigning against imaginary violence on the TV.
Seeing as this thread is about the FCC and censorship and not particularly the war in Iraq itself, I addressed that rather than violence in the world. However, you're making an incorrect assumption that I don't 'campaign against the violence in the world'. I'm mandated to report child abuse in particular, and any cases where I believe assualt/battery/other major illegal actions are happening (which helps cover the elder abuse angle). And I have done just that. In fact, I pestered Child Protective services in my town until they actually did something about the horrible situation I knew 5 kids were living in. I have unfortunately had the duty to report other cases of suspected child abuse, too, and very sadly, I was only wrong once (and very happy to be wrong, let me tell you). I've helped some women get out of abusive situations, helped teach a number of other folks self-defense techniques, and kept a guy from beating the snot out of his girlfriend in my office until the police could arrive. I have a young family, a profession, and a couple of hobbies/church/volunteer things that take a lot of time, so no, I'll never be a Cindy Sheehan on a particular war issue, but I'll make a difference in my little corner of the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
The answer to the alleged problem of children being de-sensitised to violence through watching violent TV programmes... is increased parental responsibility, not increased censorship. If the TV is showing your child glamourised violence, don't let the child watch the TV. It's really that simple.
It would be that simple if parents were able to be home with their kids a lot more. A lot of single parents work long hours or 2 jobs, or both parents have to work just to keep a roof over their families' heads. A number of studies have shown violence in TV increases violence in kids. We as a society have a responsibility to protect those who can't protect themselves. Children don't always have the ability to determine what's appropriate content. I'd love to say that the v-chip is working at my home, but a lot of the time it blocks things incorrectly. Until the technology catches up, there needs to be some kind of oversight. It's not just a parent problem when the parent doesn't do their job. The child is affected, and a violent child affects the people around him or her, disrupts learning in classrooms, attacks other kids, and has a tendancy to grow into an adult that may be more violent. It's not just a parent problem, it's a society problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
As an adult, I have a right to watch violent shows and movies if I so desire. Censorship infringes my rights, in order to do the job that parents of impressionable children should already be doing- protecting their kids.
Then buy cable. Most of the violent movies are crap anyway and not worth my time or money.
Since my tax dollars help run the government and the government regulates the airwaves, I do have the right to campaign against violence on the airwaves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
Unfortunately for yourself and Jimbo, once he decided to join an army that was participating in immoral and ill-advised actions in foreign lands, his actions, his life and- God forbid- his death, became the direct concern of the public that is footing the bill for the invasion.
The public right to see all the consequences of the wars that are being instigated in their name outweighs your personal desire to conceal the "flag-draped coffins" in case some terrorist somewhere decides to laugh maniacally at the images.
And as a taxpayer myself and the person who was related to the one who made the ultimate sacrifice, I think I have the right to deny the public permission to view the coffin. He is no longer in the Army when he's dead. The decision on what to do with his remains once he's gone is mine and my family's, not some media out let who would do heaven knows what with any images.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
The idea that showing anonymous coffins on a news report would decrease your personal safety in any meaningful way is ludicrous, bordering on paranoia.
I don't appreciate defamatory, flaming comments. Those need to stop. Now.

I wasn't referring to anonymous coffins (which the government has shown--I saw a news clip about how soldiers are brought home to their final resting places). My concern is the media attaching names with those coffins, in which case millions would have more information than they really need to know. Unfortunately, there are too many people willing to take advantage of a grieving widow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
I can only assume that it's indicative of the same culture of fear that resulted in broad US public quiescence when confronted with the totally mis-named "Patriot Act".
You can assume that, but it would be incorrect. I have young children to protect. I want the risk of something happening to them to be as low as I can possibly make it. And if it means that some anti-war groups aren't able to get their yukks out of seeing a bunch of coffins, too bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
Addressed above. Once again, the needs of the family do NOT outweigh the need of the public- who are subsidising this immoral occupation- to be made aware of ALL the consequences of the war that's being waged in their name.
I disagree. I also pay taxes, and I theoretically have just given up the primary breadwinner in my family to the country, regardless of whether someone thinks the war is immoral or not. My need and right for privacy and the fact that I've just endured The Sacrifice is more than enough to outweigh whatever the public feels they're 'entitled' to. I live in the US where we honor individual rights as well as society rights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
By concealing such powerful images from the public as pictures of the returning US/UK dead, the US/UK power centres are merely serving their own interests and using the "feelings of the family of the deceased" as a convenient excuse. And why? Because such images might spur more citizens into speaking out against the invasion. That's the last thing they want.
Oh, please. Respecting the family of the deceased is a 'convenient excuse'? They've just given up everything. It's the least the government could do to protect the families from further pain by people who care less about how the family feels and more about making some political statement at the family's expense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
can't reason good/evil or right/wrong choices properly
That would be pretty much the definition of every single young child, windu6. Some of the older children have it together, but the younger ones don't have the cognitive ability to make appropriate decisions. That's why we don't let them vote and drive.


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Old 11-27-2006, 01:37 AM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
I don't appreciate defamatory, flaming comments. Those need to stop. Now.
He said what? That really is a sick comment to make, especially how it has nothing to do with trying to shame people into opposing the war in Iraq, which is probably the reason he's such a strong supporter of allowing such images in the first place. The reason we don't parade our dead in front of TV cameras is because we don't want to traumatise the deceased family's any more by glorifying another American killed fighting in a war that people want no part of waged by a man nutcases want dead. I was actually contemplating a civil, thoughtful discussion on Iraq, but if this is the type of stunts he's going to pull forget it.
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Old 11-27-2006, 02:18 AM   #160
Samuel Dravis
 
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I'll let Spider respond to you Jae, although I disagree. "I don't appreciate defamatory, flaming comments. Those need to stop. Now." What? He gave his reasons, and while they may be condescending they were hardly flaming or defamatory.

Nancy - The only part of your post that was not an ad-hominem attack was

"The reason we don't parade our dead in front of TV cameras is because we don't want to traumatise the deceased family's any more by glorifying another American killed fighting in a war that people want no part of waged by a man nutcases want dead."

If those coffins are anonymous then how is the family going to know which one it is and be traumatized by it? Who said anything about glorifying people's deaths? Their deaths are the very thing I want to avoid! And once again, Bush is of no consequence in this discussion on censorship.

Please just post relevant comments... It's irritating to me when I see everyone apparently trying to start a flame war. Control yourselves. It's just a friendly discussion on a forum. The world will not end if Spider, I or anyone says something that ruffles a few feathers.


"Words are deeds." - Wittgenstein
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