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Old 11-18-2006, 09:39 PM   #1
PoiuyWired
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Who "Do Not Want" Kotor3?

Who "Do Not Want" Kotor3?

Before people start spaming I am going to say its not meant to be a joke thread.

What I am trying to say is, maybe K3 should not exist at all, but instead another game in the kotor universe instead. The follow up of the Revan/Exile thing can be answered in other media (or maybe even FoC2)

There are just too many variants in the whole situation that a true ending to the series (without a preset situation for Revan/Exile) would be improbable.

It is one of those weird thoughts I have after one too many coffee, and reading thru those kotor comics where they describe yet another character in the era.
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Old 11-18-2006, 11:11 PM   #2
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To be honest, I'd be perfectly happy if we don't learn any more about Revan or the Exile. To me, not every mystery needs to be answered.

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Old 11-19-2006, 01:14 AM   #3
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well from really what i know of the ebon hawk is in the kotor series till at least 9 or 12 and there is anthor one in it


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Old 11-19-2006, 01:56 AM   #4
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I for one don't care about Kotor III anymore. If they had planned it, they would have at least announced it by now, and they haven't. Also, as much as I want to find out what happens to Revan (he probably saves they galaxy yet again) and the Exile (she's going to die, no matter what), the game engine is pathetic compared to anything they have nowadays, and I've found better games anyway.

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Old 11-19-2006, 02:28 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
To be honest, I'd be perfectly happy if we don't learn any more about Revan or the Exile. To me, not every mystery needs to be answered.
Except for the huge mysteries, that are more like plot holes, left at the end of a 30 hour game in one of my favourite series of all time.

It would be like Star Wars V w/out Star Wars VI. At least Star Wars V ending did have solid resolution (that sounded a bit awkward, but you know what I mean).

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I for one don't care about Kotor III anymore. If they had planned it, they would have at least announced it by now, and they haven't. Also, as much as I want to find out what happens to Revan (he probably saves they galaxy yet again) and the Exile (she's going to die, no matter what), the game engine is pathetic compared to anything they have nowadays, and I've found better games anyway.
You have posted nearly 1400 times and you don't care about a K3.
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Old 11-19-2006, 07:46 AM   #6
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And the redundancy continues...


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Old 11-19-2006, 11:56 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
To be honest, I'd be perfectly happy if we don't learn any more about Revan or the Exile. To me, not every mystery needs to be answered.
Well said, Prime! I agree with you entirely here. The Revan-Exile saga is best left a mystery, as it lies well the gloomy, mysterious theme that signed off KotOR II. I believe whole-heartedly that like Darth Nihilus, the fate of Revan is best left unknown.

But, we can perhaps have a KotOR III, which does NOT answer the fate of Revan, which is my vision of KotOR III all along.


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Old 11-20-2006, 11:36 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alkonium
the game engine is pathetic compared to anything they have nowadays
Hmm. I find that it is still pretty good, all things considered...

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Old 11-20-2006, 03:52 PM   #9
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I can't imaging people checking up on a Kotor 3 section in the forum will not want Kotor 3 to happen. That's like asking a KFC not to fry their chicken.


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Old 11-20-2006, 04:23 PM   #10
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@Prime: Would you also have rather not seen Return of the Jedi?

The game engine isn't that tired, IMO.



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Old 11-20-2006, 04:46 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Darth InSidious
@Prime: Would you also have rather not seen Return of the Jedi?
I fail to see the comparison.

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Old 11-21-2006, 08:17 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Prime
I fail to see the comparison.
What he means is, they left the ending completely unfulfilled, and we'll never know what happens with all those major characters, much like if Return of the Jedi had not been made.

In my humble opinion, KotOR is the single best game ever made. A new KotOR with next gen graphics would pwn every living thing and its mother. Nuff said.


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Old 11-21-2006, 08:42 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Foley
What he means is, they left the ending completely unfulfilled, and we'll never know what happens with all those major characters, much like if Return of the Jedi had not been made.
I would argue that we know what happens to almost all of characters, at least as far as the story is concerned. Kreia gives a rundown of just about everyone at the end. Sure, we don't know every detail about everyone until they die, but we know about each character in the context of the story.

To use your analogy (ignoring the EU for the moment), it is like saying the Star Wars films are completely unfulfilled because we don't know everything Luke did after ROTJ.

I say that doesn't matter because the story is more or less complete in and of itself.

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Old 11-22-2006, 12:16 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
I would argue that we know what happens to almost all of characters, at least as far as the story is concerned. Kreia gives a rundown of just about everyone at the end. Sure, we don't know every detail about everyone until they die, but we know about each character in the context of the story.

To use your analogy (ignoring the EU for the moment), it is like saying the Star Wars films are completely unfulfilled because we don't know everything Luke did after ROTJ.

I say that doesn't matter because the story is more or less complete in and of itself.
I agree. After all the game is called "Knights of the Old Republic," not Knight of the Old Republic. The story does not have to remain focused on the former PCs. While I would love to see more about the Exile, Revan or other NPCs, I agree with Prime that their stories are complete.
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Old 11-22-2006, 02:48 PM   #15
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I just want at least some tangentical connection of K3 to K2. Basically, some mention of The Exile and Revan. And, maybe, having the enemy be the "True Sith". But that's about it. There was subtle connections between K1 and K2, which explains what happened to Revan. I hope for these same subtle connections between K2 and K3.

That's about it. Other than the mandatory connections, focus on the new Character/Hero/Villian. Revan's and Exile's stories are almost finished...we just need to read the Epiloge.
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Old 11-22-2006, 03:00 PM   #16
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i stopped playing kotor 4 months back. if they release K3, i might buy it, but i'm not waiting with crossed fingers for it anymore. LA has ruined a perfectly good franchise, i believe.


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Old 11-23-2006, 04:15 PM   #17
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Well, obviously k3 will be on a new engine. Though it would be nice if the D20 style game system would stick. Its easy to handle, and easy for new players to understand, especially if they have pior xp with D20.

kotor's charm is on its story, and all the different choices and possabilities you can toy with. Having too complex a game system(especially combat) only make it more like some online MMO where the main focus is leveling and combat rather than story and roleplaying.
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Old 11-24-2006, 01:08 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
I would argue that we know what happens to almost all of characters, at least as far as the story is concerned. Kreia gives a rundown of just about everyone at the end. Sure, we don't know every detail about everyone until they die, but we know about each character in the context of the story.
Agreed on TSL's characters, I still need more on Revan and to a lesser extent the Exile.

As far as K1 NPCs I wouldn't mind seeing some EU stories on them. Something like a one-shot or short comic series taking place before or after K1(still alive since Revan being canonical LS). But not during or after TSL since the story arc is unfinished.

It could be one about Mission and Zaalbar. Even more compelling Jolee Bindo. Possibly his adventures as a padawn during the era of Exar Kun.
As referred to by the Desciple I'd be interested in "The adventures of Jolee Bindo on the Outer Rim".

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Old 11-24-2006, 07:44 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
I would argue that we know what happens to almost all of characters, at least as far as the story is concerned. Kreia gives a rundown of just about everyone at the end. Sure, we don't know every detail about everyone until they die, but we know about each character in the context of the story.

To use your analogy (ignoring the EU for the moment), it is like saying the Star Wars films are completely unfulfilled because we don't know everything Luke did after ROTJ.

I say that doesn't matter because the story is more or less complete in and of itself.
Ahh yes, so I remember. She mentions what happens to the Exile, and to Revan, and what happened on the Outer Rim, what happens to Bastila, Carth and any of the other K1 survivors, and why we never hear from the True Sith again...Forgot that bit of the end



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Old 11-24-2006, 09:02 AM   #20
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I don't know what everyone else feels, but to me all of Kreia's talk about the true Sith and "the great war that comes" has a major "To be continued" sign in neon all over it.

And that's not even counting that we hear about Revan the entire game without ever finding him again, or even hearing what becomes of the Exile. It's not as if TLS has the sort of ending where the Exile goes off into the sunset to live happily ever after...

No offense, but I just don't understand how anyone can say that Revan's and Exile's stories are over. Sorry, but I just don't get it.


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Old 11-24-2006, 11:47 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Jediphile
I don't know what everyone else feels, but to me all of Kreia's talk about the true Sith and "the great war that comes" has a major "To be continued" sign in neon all over it.

And that's not even counting that we hear about Revan the entire game without ever finding him again, or even hearing what becomes of the Exile. It's not as if TLS has the sort of ending where the Exile goes off into the sunset to live happily ever after...

No offense, but I just don't understand how anyone can say that Revan's and Exile's stories are over. Sorry, but I just don't get it.
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Old 11-24-2006, 12:17 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alkonium
I for one don't care about Kotor III anymore. If they had planned it, they would have at least announced it by now, and they haven't. Also, as much as I want to find out what happens to Revan (he probably saves they galaxy yet again) and the Exile (she's going to die, no matter what), the game engine is pathetic compared to anything they have nowadays, and I've found better games anyway.
Agreed. There is no Kotor 3. If there is, why hasn't there been any form of official comment, besides the non-factually based rants of Star Wars fans on the internet? Play your KOTOR 1 and 2, Jedi Academy, and all the other Star Wars games out there, and forget about your non-sensical ideas of a KOTOR 3, until Obsidian or Bioware makes an official statement.


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Old 11-24-2006, 12:33 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Alkonium
I for one don't care about Kotor III anymore. If they had planned it, they would have at least announced it by now, and they haven't. Also, as much as I want to find out what happens to Revan (he probably saves they galaxy yet again) and the Exile (she's going to die, no matter what), the game engine is pathetic compared to anything they have nowadays, and I've found better games anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loderian
Agreed. There is no Kotor 3. If there is, why hasn't there been any form of official comment, besides the non-factually based rants of Star Wars fans on the internet? Play your KOTOR 1 and 2, Jedi Academy, and all the other Star Wars games out there, and forget about your non-sensical ideas of a KOTOR 3, until Obsidian or Bioware makes an official statement.
Ahem. I beg to differ.



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Old 11-24-2006, 12:41 PM   #24
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and to what are you differing? You make no comment on that. Are you differing that there is a game, or that no official release has been made.

Before you post, make sure you say something that actually has a point and can be arguable and not make you look like an upset fanboy that is hurt by the truth.


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Old 11-24-2006, 02:03 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Loderian
and to what are you differing? You make no comment on that. Are you differing that there is a game, or that no official release has been made.

Before you post, make sure you say something that actually has a point and can be arguable and not make you look like an upset fanboy that is hurt by the truth.
That was his point you twit. If you click on the message I beg to differ, it's a link to an article.

http://www.businessweek.com/innovate...n_id=rss_daily

It has a quote from Nancy MacIntyre, VP of global sales and marketing for LucasArts.

"MacIntyre continues, “We’ve also got Star Wars franchises like Knights of the Old Republic and Battle Front that we will not leave behind. It’s very important to us that we grow those franchises.” So the future of Str Wars includes new and old game-based IP as well as IP based on other spin-offs. "
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Old 11-24-2006, 02:12 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
I just want at least some tangentical connection of K3 to K2. Basically, some mention of The Exile and Revan. And, maybe, having the enemy be the "True Sith". But that's about it. There was subtle connections between K1 and K2, which explains what happened to Revan. I hope for these same subtle connections between K2 and K3.
Indeed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RC-1162
LA has ruined a perfectly good franchise, i believe.
How so?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoiuyWired
kotor's charm is on its story, and all the different choices and possabilities you can toy with. Having too complex a game system(especially combat) only make it more like some online MMO where the main focus is leveling and combat rather than story and roleplaying.
Which I think was one of Obsidian's downfalls. The new additions (robes, lightsaber components, etc.) are great and all, but it seems that left less time to craft the story. K2's story is a great concept and a lot of potential (which it largely delivers on IMO), but could have been great had it remained the top focus.

Quote:
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As far as K1 NPCs I wouldn't mind seeing some EU stories on them. Something like a one-shot or short comic series taking place before or after K1(still alive since Revan being canonical LS).
I'd say those sorts of mediums would be better to cover those sorts of characters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
I don't know what everyone else feels, but to me all of Kreia's talk about the true Sith and "the great war that comes" has a major "To be continued" sign in neon all over it.
Might be, but doesn't mean that Revan or the Exile need to be directly involved. What might be important is that there is a great war as a result of what Revan did. Again, what is more important is the result and effects of the actions taken by Revan and the Exile, not what happens to the characters themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
And that's not even counting that we hear about Revan the entire game without ever finding him again, or even hearing what becomes of the Exile.
The only reason why you might have heard so much about Revan the entire game is because you actively asked about him the entire game. If you don't keep selecting those dialog options, you actually learn very little about Revan from the main story plot (apart that he was some dude that disappeared). Those extra options were thrown in for the fans and players of the previous game.

The main plot of the game isn't about searching for Revan, it is about finding out why the Exile is targeted/to defeat the Sith lords/rebuild the Jedi Order. The Revan stuff is more of a side plot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
It's not as if TLS has the sort of ending where the Exile goes off into the sunset to live happily ever after...
But does she have to? Just because we don't see what happens to her after TSL doesn't mean her contribution to the story isn't over. Suppose she goes off into the Unknown Regions to look for Revan. So what?

The important part is that the True Sith may be out there and they are a threat, and perhaps that Revan engaging them stirs them to action. Whether the Exile finds Revan or not probably doesn't make any difference. What was important is that the Exile destroyed the Sith Lords in Republic space and the state the Republic was left in.

Same sort of thing with Revan. The important part is probably that he went into the Unknown Regions looking for the Sith. As a result, he may have brought about a war between them and the Republic (or the Jedi or whatever). That is what affects the galaxy at large. That is what is important. And that is what is ripe for a new story about a new character that has to deal with what was brought about be the previous characters. Just like the Exile had to deal with what was brought about by Revan.

The fact that Revan wasn't in TSL doesn't matter to the story. If Revan was all important to the plot of the KOTOR, he would have been in TSL. He wasn't, because he didn't need to be there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
No offense, but I just don't understand how anyone can say that Revan's and Exile's stories are over. Sorry, but I just don't get it.
Because the story can continue just fine without ever encountering them again or learning what happened to them.

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Old 11-24-2006, 02:30 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Zach Draygo
"MacIntyre continues, “We’ve also got Star Wars franchises like Knights of the Old Republic and Battle Front that we will not leave behind. It’s very important to us that we grow those franchises.” So the future of Str Wars includes new and old game-based IP as well as IP based on other spin-offs. "
That does not directly say though: "we are going to make a KOTOR 3" maybe they have new ideas for expanding the KOTOR franchise, but by going in a different direction. It would be more of an official announcement if they flat out said: We will release KOTOR 3 at such and such time.


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Old 11-25-2006, 11:29 AM   #28
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Which part of 'We've also got franchises like Knights of the Old Republic which we will not leave behind' is not stating an intent to make a third KotOR?

Another way of putting that phrase, you see, is 'we will not abandon KotOR', or 'we will not shelve KotOR', or 'we will not give up on making money from the KotOR franchise'. Where can they make more money out of KotOR with the same or lower outlay than from a third game?

Also, here's a bit of friendly advice: Don't be so obnoxious. You won't make any friends that way



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Old 11-25-2006, 12:24 PM   #29
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they could take the franchise in a new way without making a 3rd. They could do something similar to Fable the lost chapters, where they make an expansion of the KOTOR 2 game, maybe covering the story of characters that had open endings, or little back story.

i'm sure there are plenty of people that would like to know the origins of, and what happens next after KOTOR 2 ends, of certain characters.


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Old 11-25-2006, 01:43 PM   #30
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Sure, they could to something like 'The Lost Chapters'. But guess what Lionhead is developing right now. I'll give you a hint: Le Baft, Ow! (anag.)

But really, where would you go with a KotOR II expansion that you couldn't go with greater profitability with KotOR III?

There are also the KotOR comics which, if I understand correctly, cover stuff like where Visas Marr came from, for example



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Old 11-25-2006, 08:26 PM   #31
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If you don't want K3, why did you even buy TSL? Especially if you had heard that the story was unfinished?

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I agree. After all the game is called "Knights of the Old Republic," not Knight of the Old Republic. The story does not have to remain focused on the former PCs. While I would love to see more about the Exile, Revan or other NPCs, I agree with Prime that their stories are complete.
Sorry, but you lost me. When were their stories ever complete? Revan's was the only complete one, but it was "made" incomplete by TSL, which introduced a kind of afterword, one that had all the implications of "To Be Continued."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
Might be, but doesn't mean that Revan or the Exile need to be directly involved. What might be important is that there is a great war as a result of what Revan did. Again, what is more important is the result and effects of the actions taken by Revan and the Exile, not what happens to the characters themselves.
I see your point. But the story then has an unfinished part, and the two characters must be part of the story, because not only to they have gaps in their stories that have very much to do with the "result and effects of the actions taken by Revan and the Exile", their story of how they effected the galaxy is unfinished. We still don't know what the last part they have in the storyline is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
The only reason why you might have heard so much about Revan the entire game is because you actively asked about him the entire game. If you don't keep selecting those dialog options, you actually learn very little about Revan from the main story plot (apart that he was some dude that disappeared). Those extra options were thrown in for the fans and players of the previous game.
You learn very little about Kreia if you don't ask, too. You also don't learn about your party members if you don't ask. In fact... I think you might not have learned anything if you didn't ever choose other dialogue options than the one that says "Enough yakking, let's go." (general translation)

BTW, if this is the case for Revan, then why do people place so much value on three mentions of "True Sith" by Kreia at the end of the game as a hint that we will face the supposed Sith species in K3?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
The main plot of the game isn't about searching for Revan, it is about finding out why the Exile is targeted/to defeat the Sith lords/rebuild the Jedi Order. The Revan stuff is more of a side plot.
I actually agree. This is also why I don't want a K3 that is completely focused on finding the "messiah" that is what Revan has become for some.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loderian
That does not directly say though: "we are going to make a KOTOR 3" maybe they have new ideas for expanding the KOTOR franchise, but by going in a different direction. It would be more of an official announcement if they flat out said: We will release KOTOR 3 at such and such time.
Really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth InSidious
Another way of putting that phrase, you see, is 'we will not abandon KotOR', or 'we will not shelve KotOR', or 'we will not give up on making money from the KotOR franchise'. Where can they make more money out of KotOR with the same or lower outlay than from a third game?
I totally agree. Loderian, I'm not sure whether you understand what "not leaving behind the franchise" means. Like Darth InSid said, they've got all the comics and have expanded KotOR past the games already, so doesn't that leave -> continuing the game series as an option for what they mean by that statement?

What do you think it means for Battlefront, then? Doesn't the usual meaning of franchise mean the series of games, just like it would for a TV show?
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Old 11-25-2006, 10:10 PM   #32
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You gotta be kidding me. This thread is still going...?

Dammit, they've got to make KotOR III. Yeah sure, they did comics and that, but c'mon they made these two games and left the story hanging, the least they could do is finish it! LF and whatever developer they pick to do KotOR III aren't saying anything because they don't want endless internet fanboy harrassment and speculation to rush their job. TSL got rushed, and look what happened. Massive plot holes and an obviously unfinished product have been picked over ad nauseum by us and everyone else. It'll happen. Give it some patience, people! And nonbelievers may feel free to STFU.


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Old 11-26-2006, 06:40 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
Might be, but doesn't mean that Revan or the Exile need to be directly involved. What might be important is that there is a great war as a result of what Revan did. Again, what is more important is the result and effects of the actions taken by Revan and the Exile, not what happens to the characters themselves.
To me that's like saying Rowling should write Harry Potter 7, but not bother to have Ron and Hermione in it, because they're not essential to the plot. Of course they should be in there - they're great characters. To not use them would be silly to the point of being illegal. Or should be. The same goes for Revan and Exile in my book. Actually, you could make the same sort of argument for most characters in most ongoing series: Let's continue to do Battlestar Galactica, but not have Adama and Tigh in it. Or let's do Star Wars Episode III, but cut out Yoda and Padmé, since we don't actually need them in the plot. Or even let's do Pirates of the Caribbean III, but not have Jack Sparrow in it, since we don't need him for the plot, and he's dead now anyway...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
The only reason why you might have heard so much about Revan the entire game is because you actively asked about him the entire game. If you don't keep selecting those dialog options, you actually learn very little about Revan from the main story plot (apart that he was some dude that disappeared). Those extra options were thrown in for the fans and players of the previous game.
You will hear about Revan from lots of sources whether you care to or not. And just what sort of player will actually go out of his way to NOT hear about Revan? Wouldn't that be like playing a game that you're not interested in? Besides, you could make just the same argument for most of the characters in the game, suggesting that they're not important. You don't HAVE to ask Kreia about Sion and Nihilus. Does this mean they're not important? Of course not...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
But does she have to? Just because we don't see what happens to her after TSL doesn't mean her contribution to the story isn't over. Suppose she goes off into the Unknown Regions to look for Revan. So what?
I could accept that were it not for the total and utter lack of closure to those characters. You could even have learned of Revan's ultimate death at the end of the game, but no you don't - instead you hear that he's off fighting some ancient evil that threatens the entire Republic, and that your own protagonist must go off and help him. So you fly off to do so, fade out, roll end credits. Had there been closure to Revan and Exile, then I might agree, but not only are they left alive, no, the plot actually builds to a climax for them that we never see, which speaks volumes. To not pick up on that in the subsequent plot would be like simply leaving out Han Solo except for a few throwaway phrases in RotJ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
The fact that Revan wasn't in TSL doesn't matter to the story. If Revan was all important to the plot of the KOTOR, he would have been in TSL. He wasn't, because he didn't need to be there.
Actually, he was in the tomb on Korriban

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
Because the story can continue just fine without ever encountering them again or learning what happened to them.
It could continue, but I dare say not "just fine." Had there been closure to the characters in TSL, then maybe. But there wasn't, and we need that. The alternative is pretty bad storytelling, if you ask me. Besides, not using great characters like Revan and Exile would be utter stupidity IMHO. Why not use them? That's what they're there for, after all. I can't think of a single reason that speaks in favor of just throwing them out of the plot.


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Old 11-26-2006, 06:46 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
To me that's like saying Rowling should write Harry Potter 7, but not bother to have Ron and Hermione in it, because they're not essential to the plot. Of course they should be in there - they're great characters. To not use them would be silly to the point of being illegal. Or should be. The same goes for Revan and Exile in my book. Actually, you could make the same sort of argument for most characters in most ongoing series: Let's continue to do Battlestar Galactica, but not have Adama and Tigh in it. Or let's do Star Wars Episode III, but cut out Yoda and Padmé, since we don't actually need them in the plot. Or even let's do Pirates of the Caribbean III, but not have Jack Sparrow in it, since we don't need him for the plot, and he's dead now anyway...



You will hear about Revan from lots of sources whether you care to or not. And just what sort of player will actually go out of his way to NOT hear about Revan? Wouldn't that be like playing a game that you're not interested in? Besides, you could make just the same argument for most of the characters in the game, suggesting that they're not important. You don't HAVE to ask Kreia about Sion and Nihilus. Does this mean they're not important? Of course not...



I could accept that were it not for the total and utter lack of closure to those characters. You could even have learned of Revan's ultimate death at the end of the game, but no you don't - instead you hear that he's off fighting some ancient evil that threatens the entire Republic, and that your own protagonist must go off and help him. So you fly off to do so, fade out, roll end credits. Had there been closure to Revan and Exile, then I might agree, but not only are they left alive, no, the plot actually builds to a climax for them that we never see, which speaks volumes. To not pick up on that in the subsequent plot would be like simply leaving out Han Solo except for a few throwaway phrases in RotJ.



Actually, he was in the tomb on Korriban



It could continue, but I dare say not "just fine." Had there been closure to the characters in TSL, then maybe. But there wasn't, and we need that. The alternative is pretty bad storytelling, if you ask me. Besides, not using great characters like Revan and Exile would be utter stupidity IMHO. Why not use them? That's what they're there for, after all. I can't think of a single reason that speaks in favor of just throwing them out of the plot.
QFT.

The other arguments about the difficulty of re-introducing an old character as a PC don't hold water either - a new character will have to have amnesia too - look at the Exile and her curious inability to remember who Bao-Dur was...



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Old 11-26-2006, 07:24 PM   #35
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Funny how you make a long post about something and then someone else comes along and says it three times better.

I agree with Jediphile.
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Old 11-26-2006, 07:57 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth InSidious
The other arguments about the difficulty of re-introducing an old character as a PC don't hold water either - a new character will have to have amnesia too - look at the Exile and her curious inability to remember who Bao-Dur was...
It was pretty hard role-playing the Exile, when he clearly had so much past knowledge that he never revealed himself. That the character is unwilling to share it with friends and companions is one thing, but I need to know it to play the character. Since I didn't, it meant that playing the Exile was like playing blindfolded with a hand tied behind my back.

Don't get me wrong, though. I actually don't want to have Revan or the Exile as the protagonist in KotOR3. I'd much rather go for a new, young jedi padawan-turning-knight. I'd want Revan and Exile in the plot as major characters who could be playable only later in the game.

I mean, Revan and Exile are pretty powerful characters now. Revan is at least level 20 (and probably a lot more, given that he's been off fighting the true Sith for four years), while the Exile could be pushing level 50. How do you make a playable game that retains progressive elements at those power levels from the beginning? And "resetting" either of them back to level 1 would be lame beyond description, since that's what we've seen twice in as many games now. Sure, the Exile didn't officially have amnesia as Revan did, but then it hardly mattered, when the effect amounted to the same thing...


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Old 11-27-2006, 12:33 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
It was pretty hard role-playing the Exile, when he clearly had so much past knowledge that he never revealed himself. That the character is unwilling to share it with friends and companions is one thing, but I need to know it to play the character. Since I didn't, it meant that playing the Exile was like playing blindfolded with a hand tied behind my back.

Don't get me wrong, though. I actually don't want to have Revan or the Exile as the protagonist in KotOR3. I'd much rather go for a new, young jedi padawan-turning-knight. I'd want Revan and Exile in the plot as major characters who could be playable only later in the game.

I mean, Revan and Exile are pretty powerful characters now. Revan is at least level 20 (and probably a lot more, given that he's been off fighting the true Sith for four years), while the Exile could be pushing level 50. How do you make a playable game that retains progressive elements at those power levels from the beginning? And "resetting" either of them back to level 1 would be lame beyond description, since that's what we've seen twice in as many games now. Sure, the Exile didn't officially have amnesia as Revan did, but then it hardly mattered, when the effect amounted to the same thing...

I would not use game mechanics to determine the power of characters... Levels are a RPG element, to show us the progress of our characters in the game, and to reward us. "yeah, level up!!!"

After all you didn't think something like "WOW, Malak is a strong badass, got to be at least level 32!!!" did you?

A Mira level 20 can be stronger than a Revan level 20... if skilled right with the right weapons. Does that make sense?
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Old 11-27-2006, 01:47 PM   #38
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Either way, levels do speak to a character's ability and power, and high levels certainly make characters more powerful. That both Revan and Exile are either amnesic or suffer a loss of power is really just used as a means to both explain how the character can grow so powerful so quickly and to give the character background. No, I don't particularly like the D20 system either, but we're stuck with it, unless it's tossed out for a different system. And beginning a game at level 20 or higher will make it far less playable, since the progressive element will be vastly reduced. Watching your puny characters grow powerful and skillful is part of the fun, after all.


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Old 11-27-2006, 02:12 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loderian
That does not directly say though: "we are going to make a KOTOR 3" maybe they have new ideas for expanding the KOTOR franchise, but by going in a different direction.
Which is exactly what Raven did with JA and the JK series...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth InSidious
There are also the KotOR comics which, if I understand correctly, cover stuff like where Visas Marr came from, for example
Just to clarify, there was a one-shot story in Tales about Nihilis destroying Visas' homeworld. The ongoing comic series covers completely new characters at the start of the Mandalorian Wars.

Again showing that there are lots of great potential stories in that era that don't involve Revan or the Exile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
But the story then has an unfinished part, and the two characters must be part of the story, because not only to they have gaps in their stories that have very much to do with the "result and effects of the actions taken by Revan and the Exile", their story of how they effected the galaxy is unfinished. We still don't know what the last part they have in the storyline is.
That part is ok. I'm not arguing that K3 needs to have all references to Revan and the Exile erased. All I'm saying that there is no requirement storywise to have either (moreso the Exile) directly involved in the game. It is sufficient to learn of the results of their actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
You learn very little about Kreia if you don't ask, too. You also don't learn about your party members if you don't ask. In fact... I think you might not have learned anything if you didn't ever choose other dialogue options than the one that says "Enough yakking, let's go." (general translation)
But you automatically learn a reasonable amount about these characters, especially Kriea, just by advancing through the game. It is impossible not to learn that Kriea was Sith, for example. You have to learn certain things about different characters because the plot won't advance otherwise. Learning about Revan is more side information. How many points during the game would prevent you from advancing without learning more about Revan? Not a lot, if any, if I recall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
Like Darth InSid said, they've got all the comics and have expanded KotOR past the games already, so doesn't that leave -> continuing the game series as an option for what they mean by that statement?
Plus, she is the VP of marketing for Lucasarts, with is not at all involved with the comics. She is only permitted to speak on behalf of that area, which is videogames.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mace MacLeod
You gotta be kidding me. This thread is still going...?
And nonbelievers may feel free to STFU.
If you aren't interested in contributing, take your own advice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Or let's do Star Wars Episode III, but cut out Yoda and Padmé, since we don't actually need them in the plot.
But that's my point, both of these characters are essentail to the plot. Yoda, because it had to be shown that the Emperor defeated the greatest of the Jedi (as a worthy adversary) and showed that the Order was fully defeated, and Padme because without her Anakin has no reason to go to the dark side. The story cannot advance in its current form without these characters.

My argument is that KOTOR's story can advance with only passing references to those characters.

As for BSG, I haven't seen the last few seasons, and PC I've only seen the first one, so I won't comment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
You will hear about Revan from lots of sources whether you care to or not.
Such as? I seem to remember, and it has been a while, that almost all sources of information were from dialog options that could be skipped if desired. And on top of that most information is locked behind Kriea's influence, so many players can't access it even if they wanted to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
And just what sort of player will actually go out of his way to NOT hear about Revan?
A player that didn't play the first game and does not want to sit around listening at length about a character that currently has little affect on the story being told. Or a player that already knows about Revan and so didn't want to have it all spelled out again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Wouldn't that be like playing a game that you're not interested in?
No. It is skipping parts you aren't interested in. I have no interest in G0-T0, so apart from the parts that I have to go through, I don't spend any time to find out more about him. Doesn't mean I'm not interested in the game overall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Besides, you could make just the same argument for most of the characters in the game, suggesting that they're not important.
In some cases, yes. The handmadian, hanharr, desciple, and mira are not important per se, because you can get through the game just fine without them. They add value to the game, but they are by no means essential. Take Disciple out. Does the game drastically change? No. Doesn't mean they are bad characters, just that they are not critically important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
You don't HAVE to ask Kreia about Sion and Nihilus. Does this mean they're not important? Of course not...
But you can't get through the game without learning about them or encountering them. They both directly affect the plot. Revan doesn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
You could even have learned of Revan's ultimate death at the end of the game, but no you don't - instead you hear that he's off fighting some ancient evil that threatens the entire Republic, and that your own protagonist must go off and help him.
Yes! And the result of that is what might be important to K3's plot. Did it result in a war with the Republic? Did the true Sith get defeated? You can learn all that indirectly in a potential K3 story. Hell, you could leave out any mention of the Exile and still close the overall plot point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Actually, he was in the tomb on Korriban
Touche.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Had there been closure to the characters in TSL, then maybe. But there wasn't, and we need that.
But we learn about the fates of just about every character in TSL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Besides, not using great characters like Revan and Exile would be utter stupidity IMHO. Why not use them?
Because they may not fit the future plot, and there may need to be more time devoted to new characters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
I can't think of a single reason that speaks in favor of just throwing them out of the plot.
References can still be included, but they don't need to be the focus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth InSidious
The other arguments about the difficulty of re-introducing an old character as a PC don't hold water either - a new character will have to have amnesia too
Argh, not more amnesia!

There have been many threads around on why reintroducing old PCs doesn't really work in RPGs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth InSidious
look at the Exile and her curious inability to remember who Bao-Dur was...
How is it curious? For starters, you can say that you remember him. Even if not, there is nothing sinister about not recognizing an aquintance from over a decade ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
It was pretty hard role-playing the Exile, when he clearly had so much past knowledge that he never revealed himself. That the character is unwilling to share it with friends and companions is one thing, but I need to know it to play the character. Since I didn't, it meant that playing the Exile was like playing blindfolded with a hand tied behind my back.
But that is kind of missing the point of an RPG isn't it? The idea isn't to figure out how you are supposed to play the character, but making the character your own and playing him/her how you want to play. You seem to be implying that there is a right and wrong way to play the character, which isn't true. That is why it is hard to bring a PC back in future games to interact with. Everyone is going to have different visions of the character, so it is impossible for the devs to capture them all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
I'd want Revan and Exile in the plot as major characters who could be playable only later in the game.
But why would you want to spend the majority of the game building your new character only to be forced into playing another characer at the end?

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Old 11-27-2006, 02:30 PM   #40
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I agree with a lot of what Prime says. There are too many visions of Revan/The Exile, to really include them in the game. When ever I post here, I've been for using the cannon endings (Even though I prefer Revan to be a DS male, and the exile to be a LS male), but more than likely, we'll learn of their fate and move on. I definately don't want to play as either Revan or the Exile. At this point they are too powerful, and when the game ends, I want my character to be the strongest. I'm also against a character with any form of Amnesia, voluntary or not. Hopefully the character is a young promising jedi.
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