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View Poll Results: Who would win in a fight?
Revan 149 74.13%
Nihilus 52 25.87%
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Thread: Revan VS. Nihilus... who would win
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Old 11-30-2006, 08:44 PM   #41
SilentScope001
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He could use convential Force powers on them, but that still makes him far from invincible. I don't think Nihilus could hold his own against 500 droids firing simultaneously.
This reminds me of the quote from HK-47...that the only way to kill a Jedi is to be a Human Being. Just replace Human Being with a Droid...and that would be all.

This must be why there is a huge army of Sith troopers was on the Raveger, to defend Nihlius from these droids who will march to Nihlius. If these troopers can destroy or weaken the droids, then Nihlius can take them out. Now it makes sense why Nihlius has a huge army...when it is obivous that he can wipe out planets with his NihliusDrain (tm)...because he's secretly afraid and paranoid of threats...including robots. Also makes sense why he was trying to do the Beast Mind Trick on Onderon, since beasts are more loyal and depedenable than humans or robots.

And, prehaps, Nihlius is not flesh and blood. Hence, the droids will just fire...and fly right through Nihlius' rope, and Nihlius wouldn't feel a thing. I doubt it, but...

But we're off topic. This is a battle between Revan and Nihlius. NOT CIS Droid Army and Nihlius.
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Old 12-01-2006, 04:34 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Wouldn't work. Force-sensitives, when in combat, can sense their opponent's intentions.
While they can sense others' intentions, that still requires their focus on the Force. If they're distracted and the focus is lost, a jedi could be as vulnerable as a non-jedi. This is how the jedi Andur died.

Also, force-sensitives may fail to sense others' intentions if techniques like Atton's kill Jedi techniques are used- to crowd one's thoughts with violent emotions. All in all, force-users are not almighty. There're still things they can't accomplish with the Force.
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Old 12-01-2006, 05:08 AM   #43
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Nihilus isn't Force sensitive though. He is dead to it, a wound, just like exile.
Now, Revan learned ancient Sith secrets from the Trayus academy. What if he learned how to "Force eat" (As I call it) And control it just like Kriea does. But that wouldn't work against Nihilus would it? He is a wound. So, Revan tries to do that but fails and ultimately dies.
Revan tries combat from afar. He tries to blow up Nihilus' ship. It would work. BUT, that isn't Revan VS. Nihilus, considerin VS. means one-on-one. So that fails.
Any other theories I can prove (probably) that Revan tried would not work. If this threa was Revan destroys Nihilus how, then he could destroy him from a ship. But it's not.

Simply put: Nihilus.


Yes
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Old 12-01-2006, 06:06 AM   #44
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This discussion does need to be defined, as 1-1 Nihilus would win, it doesnt matter about ur arguments about Revan, he basically is a force user, and a very strong one... the kind Nihilus likes as he would feed Nihlus as Revan has so much force potential.



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Old 12-01-2006, 10:35 AM   #45
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And what if Revan did learn the power of unresistable speeches? He would just talk Nihilus into suicide!


By the way, why does everybody mention that Nihilus attempted to use his drain on the Exile but failed? There is a scenario where he does just that, but if you as the PC choose other dialoge options, he won't even try it. It'S all lightsaber / common force powers then.

So you can't argue, that he did try to use the drain but failed. That's like saying Bastila Shan must be dead because I killed her in Kotor I.
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Old 12-01-2006, 11:34 AM   #46
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So you can't argue, that he did try to use the drain but failed. That's like saying Bastila Shan must be dead because I killed her in Kotor I.
But in Kotor I you could save Bastila. In Kotor II there is no way to make the Exile be affected by the Leech ability of Nihilus.
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Old 12-01-2006, 01:35 PM   #47
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Vaelastraz makes a good point. You could cause Nihlius not to use his Force Drain...but you would have to do other tactics to make Nihlius weak: Lying to Nihlius that you want to be his apperciante and then suprising Nihlius by betraying him...or Killing Visas, which would weaken Nihlius due to him having a Force Bond with her. Both ways weaken Nihlius...and you have to weaken Nihlius to use it.

But there is no way to make the Exile suffer from Nihlius' Force Drain if Nihlius actually does use it. And, for the most part, Nihlius does use the Force Drain, since the other methods are rarely triggered. The fact is: All Nihlius had to do is use the Force Drain on Revan, and Revan dies.
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Old 12-01-2006, 03:10 PM   #48
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I'm not sure what I was thinking when I voted. I voted for Revan, but when you think about it, in a 1 vs. 1 fight, there's no way Revan could win. Nihilus could just eat up all the Force out of Revan and he'd be dead in seconds.


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Old 12-03-2006, 04:44 PM   #49
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While they can sense others' intentions, that still requires their focus on the Force.
From what I've read in various EU books, it actually doesn't require great effort. The Force isn't something that gets turned on and off like a light - it's always there.

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Originally Posted by Evln
This is how the jedi Andur died.
...and who was a lot weaker than Nihilus.

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Originally Posted by Evln
Also, force-sensitives may fail to sense others' intentions if techniques like Atton's kill Jedi techniques are used- to crowd one's thoughts with violent emotions.
Nihilus does not see the universe in the same manner other Sith do. I'm inclined to think that due to his hunger, he has a more primal (and effective) way of sensing emotions and intentions. Some animals, for instance, can sense fear.

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Originally Posted by Evln
All in all, force-users are not almighty. There're still things they can't accomplish with the Force.
That applies to Revan as well.

But in any case, it's all moot. If Nihilus could kill an entire conclave of the Order's best Jedi and several thousand Miralukas, I don't think one Sith Lord would be a tall order. Revan, powerful as he is, can't compare to that many Force-sensitive people. Since you also seem to think a distraction would work on Nihilus, thousands of people (or at the dozen or so Jedi together) had a far greater capacity for that than one person would. They still wound up dead.


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Old 12-04-2006, 01:33 AM   #50
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The distraction I'm talking about is actually like Nihilus being attacked while exerting his force-sucking ability. I reckon when he sucked the life out of the entire Katar he was standing afar at the bridge of his collossal dead ship, with nothing else to divert his attention. I'm just not sure if he could have accomplished the same if he was suddenly ambushed by a major threat.
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Old 12-04-2006, 01:41 AM   #51
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The distraction I'm talking about is actually like Nihilus being attacked while exerting his force-sucking ability. I reckon when he sucked the life out of the entire Katar he was standing afar at the bridge of his collossal dead ship, with nothing else to divert his attention.
Nope.



If all those people couldn't distract him, I doubt Revan alone could.


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Old 12-04-2006, 02:03 AM   #52
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Revan would win plain and simple.The Exile is strong in the force by the time he/she gets to Nihilus and defeats the powerful dark lord.

Unless the Exile had some sort of artifact that resisted the Force drain ability of Nihilus, that might explain his/her defeat.
That or it had to be a special circumstance that allowed Nihilus to drain on such a great scale, Even Plagius the Wise did not use this power. If Nihilus was that strong in the force, He would have been unstoppable, (outside of the plot) he would have sensed the Exile on the Ebon Hawk and drained the force from all living beings on the Hawk, even Kreia's Making herself small in the force would not have helped.

Yes the jedi have known about the ysalamiri for ages, During the Thrawn Trilogy, Talon Karrde tells someone, that because of the "No Force Bubble" the ysalamiri create the jedi have avoided Myrkr like a plague for hundreds of years and only go there under dire circumstances.

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Old 12-04-2006, 04:01 AM   #53
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In a grander, Revan vs Nihilus in war, situation, Revan I think would win. As a matter of tactics and options, Revan clearly has the advantage. Revan was brilliant, Nihilus was....hungry. I'm completely confident Revan could pull it off.
In a 1 on 1 fight, force super-suck excluded, Revan would also unquestionalby win for sure.

But I think the real question is whether in face to face combat, Nihilus' Force Suck move would work on Revan, and more importantly, work in time. If the power worked as many think it does, then Nihilus would have to win.

Unfortunately, since Nihilus' character was so poorly designed and developed, its hard to know exactly how his power worked or what it actually was.

I admit that I don't really know that much about the power, because I've never been interested in clown face. But I'm playing through TSL again right now and I'll pay more attention.

I originally got the impression that Nihilus' power was more of a subtle, draining thing. On one occasion he sucked the life out of a planet, but we don't know how long it took, or where from, or how much energy it took.

The other examples we directly see are much more subtle and long term than insta-drain. Visas, and Nihilus' entire ship is an example. People were being drained and corrupted over a long period of time, for Nihilus' sustenance. Of course, that doesn't necessarily imply that he is in any way unable to suddenly concentrate it.

The first time I played through, I don't recall having Nihilus be weakened in any way right before the fight. The second time, Visas did her weird sacrifice thing, and that was a first I know, but I don't remember him draining me or anythind noticeable happening the first time, which made his complete utter suckness even more baffling and surprising.

Another thing that struck me about Nihilus' power is that resisting it was somewhat of a matter of will. It seemed like the kind of thing that a strong, focused, aware, will could resist, like corruption. Something which Revan, if anyone, would be able to do.

Some people mentioned some cut content where Nihilus one shot drains Sion, which I didn't know about, and gives a lot of valuable information about how Nihilus can use the power. It would seem that Nihilus can use it effectively in close combat on an individual, both suddenly and powerfully.

But is also seems to be lacking in its completeness, as evidenced by Sion still retaining his fundamental resilience. There didn't seem to be any leftovers or traces of the Miraluka or the Jedi there, so it could be a matter of strength in the force that let Sion survive, in which case Revan would certainly have a shot, at least conceivably.

Also regarding Sion's case, the matter of willpower could be a factor. Sion was like Malak, strong and filled with anger and hate which gave them power, but ultimately left them incomplete. Revan, though, was much stronger willed than both of them, and stronger in the force as well. Who knows how much of an effect that would have.

There is also Nihilus' sometimes existent attempt to use the power on the Exile, which again shows that in can be used in close combat, but to what effect, we can't see in this case.


One last thing to consider, it took both Sion and Nihilus to betray Traya. They had to team up to do it (if they didn't need to, they wouldn't have)(also, this shows the flaw of the non-only-2 sith order system, and why it was eventually put in place). That says to me that Traya was able to defend herself, at least enough, from Nihilus' powers.

If it is possible to defend against the power, than I believe that Revan could do it.

That's what it boils down to for me, actually. If Nihilus can effectively use his power in close combat, but a sufficiently skilled force user can defend against it, Revan would win.

(note: I do not believe that more force power makes one more susceptible to Nihilus' drain. Force sensitivity makes someone a target, and the drain would have a greater effect on them, but they are not more vulnerable.)



On another note, to whoever didn't think that Revan isn't brilliant, read the dialog next time. All of TSL says that he was planing, thoughtful, and intelligent in his actions, beyond the comprehension of any of his companions. Every time Kreia speaks of him, she speaks with awe and admiration, and we know how she feels about brute force, and unthinking, unnecessary violence, as well as perception and thoughtful consideration of all the factors. The fact that she speaks admirably of his intellect is a large boon to his intelligence.

Then in KOTOR 1, if you aren't convinced by Canderous alone that Revan was a genius, then there's somethign wrong with you. Canderous' stories clearly demonstrate that the Mandalorians were kicking the Republic's ass in the war, on every front, until Revan showed up. There is one story in particular that shows Canderous' awe for Revan's tactical prowess, saying that there were thousands of brilliant micromanaged feints and distractions that all composed into one brilliant campaign that anticipated and defeated the Mandalorian's every move. If a great Mandalorian openly admire's someone's tactical prowess, then you better believe that they were unique.


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Old 12-04-2006, 07:23 AM   #54
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*Sigh*

How many bloody people have played K2? It is ridiculous that Revan has even got a vote. It's even more ridiculous that Revan is winning this poll. We're talking about a 'one on one' fight right? That's what 'vs.' is, right?

Is there no limit to Revan's over glorification? If you Revan voters actually played K2, paid attention and understood it, you'd realise that the Exile is the only one who can beat Nihilus.

You Revan voters all mention how if Nihilus is distracted or doesn't have time to use his powers or if his powers don't work against Revan (which is bull, since they work against all who are touched by the force, excluding the Exile, who is a wound in the force, and Visas, who is tied to Nihilus somehow) that he/she would win.

Kreia: "{Chiding} Power? Do you think so? {Shakes head} You would be wrong. There is no strength in the hunger he possesses... and the will behind his power is a primal thing. And it devours him as he devours others - his mere presence kills all around him, slowly, feeding him. He is already dead; it is simply a question of how many he kills before he falls.

The only difference between the Jedi and the half dead Sith slaves that follow him is that he is slowly devouring them, but with the Jedi, he just kills them instantly.

Nihilus>Every one except for the Exile.

Revan sucks.

Revan is overrated.

Deal with it.


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Old 12-04-2006, 06:01 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by The Architect
Revan sucks.

Revan is overrated.

Deal with it.
You underestimate Revan. Congratulations, your opinion has been neutralized, lets move on.

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The only difference between the Jedi and the half dead Sith slaves that follow him is that he is slowly devouring them, but with the Jedi, he just kills them instantly.
Good point.

Quote:
You Revan voters all mention how if Nihilus is distracted or doesn't have time to use his powers or if his powers don't work against Revan (which is bull, since they work against all who are touched by the force, excluding the Exile, who is a wound in the force, and Visas, who is tied to Nihilus somehow) that he/she would win.
I think you're basically right. The problem is, it vague and poorly defined in K2, especially when your first play through is like mine where I didn't encounter any dialog that explained why Nihilus sucked so bad.
Its hard to tell for sure, but I agree that from what we know, you're most likely correct in how the power works, in which case Revan would indeed lose. But don't assume its obvious that the power must be like that. People have brought up lots of points why it might not, and the game is especially vague in this area.

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Originally Posted by The Architect
*Sigh*

How many bloody people have played K2? It is ridiculous that Revan has even got a vote. It's even more ridiculous that Revan is winning this poll. We're talking about a 'one on one' fight right? That's what 'vs.' is, right?
If it were that clear, this would be a pretty stupid poll, wouldn't it?

Actually, not that I mention it, it is a pretty stupid poll. Not on concept, but it really comes down to how Nihilus' power works. Its either something that Revan could beat (which is impossible to concretely back up, and thus makes the discussion imbalanced) or its an insta death nuke (in which case it's a dumb question, like who would win, Batman or a Nuke?)



By the way, I voted Revan, before I read the thread, because Revan is about a bajillion times cooler than Nihilus, and sans the death power, woudl whoop Nihilus in a heartbeat. But I wasn't really thinking about the drain power, and when considering that, in all honesty I would have to say that it is most likely something that could ruin Revan and end the fight in Nihilus' favor. So I'd vote for Nihilus now, but I did vote for Revan instincively.


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Old 12-04-2006, 06:34 PM   #56
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Heh, everyone knows Revan's the main badass (goodass) in KoTOR I and II.

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Old 12-04-2006, 06:51 PM   #57
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Revan because he could create thought bombs and force storms.
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Old 12-04-2006, 10:03 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by JawaJoey
You underestimate Revan. Congratulations, your opinion has been neutralized, lets move on.
Meh, Revan's average. He/she is powerful, but an idiot IMO. I'm talking about the Revan who fought in the Mandalorian Wars by the way. The Revan in the JCW is okay, since from a certain point of view, I was Revan, so I'd be pretty much calling my self an idiot if I said Revan was an idiot, right?

But seriously, Revan is not the ultra cool, perfect, mega genius force god that the stupid fan boys make him/her out to be. I hope Revan gets killed in K3. I don't care how, I just hope he/she dies.

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I think you're basically right. The problem is, it vague and poorly defined in K2, especially when your first play through is like mine where I didn't encounter any dialog that explained why Nihilus sucked so bad.
Its hard to tell for sure, but I agree that from what we know, you're most likely correct in how the power works, in which case Revan would indeed lose. But don't assume its obvious that the power must be like that. People have brought up lots of points why it might not, and the game is especially vague in this area.
What points have people brought up that Nihilus' power doesn't work the way it is defined as in the game? Show me these points. Just look at the half dead Sith on the Ravager bridge. Listen to the weird ferrel, zombie like noise those Sith assassins make when you kill them.

If you're a Jedi/Sith, if you're not a wound in the force, if you're not Visas, then you will die either instantly or be slowly devoured just by getting too close to Nihilus. Why do you think the Jedi hid in the first place?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JawaJoey
If it were that clear, this would be a pretty stupid poll, wouldn't it?

Actually, not that I mention it, it is a pretty stupid poll. Not on concept, but it really comes down to how Nihilus' power works. Its either something that Revan could beat (which is impossible to concretely back up, and thus makes the discussion imbalanced) or its an insta death nuke (in which case it's a dumb question, like who would win, Batman or a Nuke?)
There is no defence against this technique. Even if there was, you wouldn't have a chance to defend your self, because Nihilus doesn't have to do anything to kill you. He can just stand there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JawaJoey
By the way, I voted Revan, before I read the thread, because Revan is about a bajillion times cooler than Nihilus, and sans the death power, woudl whoop Nihilus in a heartbeat. But I wasn't really thinking about the drain power, and when considering that, in all honesty I would have to say that it is most likely something that could ruin Revan and end the fight in Nihilus' favor. So I'd vote for Nihilus now, but I did vote for Revan instincively.
So when you voted Revan, you were:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
Making more of an emotional decision based on your attachment to Revan's character rather than a logical one since the Exile was the only answer against Nihilus.

It's like Wolverine was the only answer against Jean Gray AKA The Phoenix in X-Men III.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kas'!m
Revan because he could create thought bombs and force storms.
So what? Revan was powerful, but the more powerful you are, the easier it is for Nihilus' to kill you. Revan would be a simple and good meal for Nihilus, unless Revan becomes a wound in the force, like the Exile.

I thought it was pretty clear in K2 that the Exile was the only answer against Nihilus. I guess I was wrong.


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Old 12-04-2006, 10:46 PM   #59
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To put it simply....Nihilus would win hands down.

@The Architect, I understand your frustration with Revan fan-boys, but don't take that anger out on Revan. No matter what you say, he was a great military genius. He nearly single-handedly turned the tide of the entire Mandalorian War. And unless you think Kreia is completely out of her mind, then you know that what she says about him is right, and she always talks about him with great admiration. Now I'm not sayin he's unstoppable (he's far from it actually), but give the guy some credit.


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Old 12-05-2006, 12:41 PM   #60
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Have you got nothing but contempt for Revan, Architect?
Revan is average? What are the other jedi then, pawns? You can't deny that Revan IS special and extraordinary in the Kotor era.


I believe most of what you say, but if, like Kreia states (and what Kreia says is NOT necessarily true) Nihilus kills everything around him, just by his presence, how come there is that little cutscene were Nihilus attempts to use a drain like power on the Exile and fails?
Wouldn't that be unnecessary? In that case, his mere presence is not enough?

Oh, and Nihilus is capable of destroying all life, since every life is touched by the force, thus wiping out entire planets? Did I get that right? Everyone is connected to the force?
So, in Mandalor's case, that connection was apparently not enough to instantly kill him? Or could it be, that Nihilus can only kill force sensitives? I wonder why you have "saved" Telos then. Noone would have died, except you and the other few force sensitives.

I believe that there is a difference between being in Nihilus presence and the drain power he uses to instantly kill someone, draining that beings force.
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Old 12-05-2006, 05:25 PM   #61
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Some people over-estimate Nihilus a lot.

And Revan is far more powerful then Nihilus. The only thing that Nihilus is very good with is his Super Force Drain ability.

And "The Chronicles" states that Revan feeds on Dark Side Energies. His will allows him to feed on DS energies and not consumed by them.

Here is some more information: "Early in the war, at some point in the year 3,963 BBY, Revan visited the ancient Sith world of Malachor V, while scouting for new outposts along the embattled Outer Rim. Word had reached him that Malachor was anathema to the Mandalorians and he wished to know the reason why. Upon landing on the planet's surface, he was nearly destroyed by the resonance of ancient Sith power and he only managed to survive the encounter through sheer force of will. He fed upon the power of the dark side of the Force, and in so doing, avoided being utterly consumed by it."

Revan is a very powerful individual.

Additional information: "Soon after, Revan arrived at Malachor and entered the fray, but he was late and the Mandalorian fleets were far from defeated. In that moment, he drew upon the Sith energies haunting the surface below to manipulate the Jedi fighting in orbit. Taking advantage of the raw emotions spawned by combat, he overpowered them and drew them to the dark side."

Revan alone can use Dark Side energies to turn tides in huge battles, so he can do that in a one-on-one scenario as well.

He also demonstrated his Super Force Lightening Storm ability on Lehon planet and killed an entire Rakatan army backed by mighty "Rancor Beasts" in a single attack. (The One) - Leader of that army narrated this event to Revan when he again visited Lehon as a Jedi.

Revan can use this Super Force Lightening Storm ability again and kill Nihilus from a large distance, even before Nihilus will turn to face him.

Revan can win in this fight.

As master kriea said "Revan was POWER".
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Old 12-05-2006, 05:39 PM   #62
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And Revan is far more powerful then Nihilus. The only thing that Nihilus is very good with is his Super Force Drain ability.
And that is why Nihlius can win. The more powerful Revan is...the more powerful Nihlius becomes, and the more tasty Revan is. Nihlius wins, because of the NihliusDrain, that is uncounterable, expect via The Exile.

If Nihlius did not have this Drain, then he can be easily defeated. But then, you take away the only thing that make Nihlius cool.

Quote:
Oh, and Nihilus is capable of destroying all life, since every life is touched by the force, thus wiping out entire planets? Did I get that right? Everyone is connected to the force?
So, in Mandalor's case, that connection was apparently not enough to instantly kill him?
Cut content shows Mandalore possibly dying on The Raveger, though Visas predicts he'll surivie. So, yes, Mandalore could have been wounded by Darth Nihlius.
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Old 12-05-2006, 07:31 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Wookiepedia
Several Ysalamiri together would expand their force-neutral bubble by exponential distance - sometimes miles.
This proves that the Yslamiri possably could indeed prevent the drain, provided there were several of them in another room neaby.
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Originally Posted by JawaJoey
Some people mentioned some cut content where Nihilus one shot drains Sion, which I didn't know about, and gives a lot of valuable information about how Nihilus can use the power. It would seem that Nihilus can use it effectively in close combat on an individual, both suddenly and powerfully.
Its cut content for a reason right? I mean its a finished cutscene so they didn't remove it because it would hve taken time, which implies they didn't like it and dropped it, prehaps this posed Nihilus overpowered in the cutscene?
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
If you're a Jedi/Sith, if you're not a wound in the force, if you're not Visas, then you will die either instantly or be slowly devoured just by getting too close to Nihilus. Why do you think the Jedi hid in the first place?
Yes he may be killed OVER TIME but Revan would undoubtably have time to attack Nihilus befor his over-time effect killed him. Therefor Revan would win though be slightly/majorly injured, OR the power would kill Revan, but Revan would have had time enough to kill Nihilus befor he died.

Clearly this cannot be resolved without a developer stepping in and telling us what the answer would be, which they clearly won't so this discussion is over.

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Old 12-05-2006, 09:53 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Some people over-estimate Nihilus a lot.

And Revan is far more powerful then Nihilus. The only thing that Nihilus is very good with is his Super Force Drain ability.

And "The Chronicles" states that Revan feeds on Dark Side Energies. His will allows him to feed on DS energies and not consumed by them.

Here is some more information: "Early in the war, at some point in the year 3,963 BBY, Revan visited the ancient Sith world of Malachor V, while scouting for new outposts along the embattled Outer Rim. Word had reached him that Malachor was anathema to the Mandalorians and he wished to know the reason why. Upon landing on the planet's surface, he was nearly destroyed by the resonance of ancient Sith power and he only managed to survive the encounter through sheer force of will. He fed upon the power of the dark side of the Force, and in so doing, avoided being utterly consumed by it."

Revan is a very powerful individual.

Additional information: "Soon after, Revan arrived at Malachor and entered the fray, but he was late and the Mandalorian fleets were far from defeated. In that moment, he drew upon the Sith energies haunting the surface below to manipulate the Jedi fighting in orbit. Taking advantage of the raw emotions spawned by combat, he overpowered them and drew them to the dark side."

Revan alone can use Dark Side energies to turn tides in huge battles, so he can do that in a one-on-one scenario as well.

He also demonstrated his Super Force Lightening Storm ability on Lehon planet and killed an entire Rakatan army backed by mighty "Rancor Beasts" in a single attack. (The One) - Leader of that army narrated this event to Revan when he again visited Lehon as a Jedi.

Revan can use this Super Force Lightening Storm ability again and kill Nihilus from a large distance, even before Nihilus will turn to face him.

Revan can win in this fight.

As master kriea said "Revan was POWER".
*sigh*...I'm getting tired of this Revan fan-boy stuff. Revan cannot "drain" the Force. He had no power like that whatsoever. He turned all those Jedi by using the Trayus Core. As Kreia says, it corrupts anything that walks on its surface. If Revan can use these "Dark Side enregies to turn the tides in huge battles," then why would everyone always talk about how special Bastila's Battle Meditation is?

And I'm also tired of this "Revan could kill Nihilus before he is able to use his Force drain." That's not a plausible explanation. No matter how "fast" Revan is, Nihilus would drain all the Force out of Revan and he's be dead in a matter of seconds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth-Meatbag
Its cut content for a reason right? I mean its a finished cutscene so they didn't remove it because it would hve taken time, which implies they didn't like it and dropped it, prehaps this posed Nihilus overpowered in the cutscene?
Just because it's finished doesn't mean that they had already included it in the game. And if Sion tried to face Nihilus one-on-one, then that is exactly what would happen. Sion, like Revan, would never even have a chance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth-Meatbag
Yes he may be killed OVER TIME but Revan would undoubtably have time to attack Nihilus befor his over-time effect killed him. Therefor Revan would win though be slightly/majorly injured, OR the power would kill Revan, but Revan would have had time enough to kill Nihilus befor he died.

Clearly this cannot be resolved without a developer stepping in and telling us what the answer would be, which they clearly won't so this discussion is over.
There's that same argument again. "Revan could kill him before he had a chance to drain his Force." Once again, it doesn't matter how fast anyone is. Nihilus would drain anyone that got near him before they even had a chance, with the exception of the Exile of course.

And the whole thing with the developer stepping in, true we probly won't know until that happens, but hey- I'm always up for a little healthy debate (especially one where I know I'm right).


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Old 12-05-2006, 10:21 PM   #65
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For everyone's future reference, there is evidence that Nihilus can kill people with his all-powerful drain before they react. Unseen, Unheard confirms that he went to the surface of Katarr to consume the Jedi there, and despite going against a whole conclave of Masters (obviously more than a match for Revan), he was clearly able to kill them.

No credence to Nihilus' power being slow, there.


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Old 12-05-2006, 11:21 PM   #66
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What points have people brought up that Nihilus' power doesn't work the way it is defined as in the game? Show me these points. Just look at the half dead Sith on the Ravager bridge. Listen to the weird ferrel, zombie like noise those Sith assassins make when you kill them.
The point is that it isn't defined in the game. It isn't shown that it is an undefensible power. It isn't clearly shown to be a greatly effective close quarters combat move (although there is evidence that it probably is).

I don't know why you'd even bring up the zombie sith people. That's an example of the slow draining that happens to people around him, you know the slow, not lethal for a very long time, passive effect that Nihilus has, the one that wouldn't matter in the slightest in a one on one fight.

Quote:
There is no defence against this technique. Even if there was, you wouldn't have a chance to defend your self, because Nihilus doesn't have to do anything to kill you. He can just stand there.
1. The no defense thing is exactly what people are questioning, and it isn't explicitly clear.
2. Just standing there does the slow effect... he doesn't insta kill everyone around him always. And if he did anything less than suddenly do the big power, then Revan would unquestionably win.


Quote:
So when you voted Revan, you were:
Yes, that's exactly what I was admitting. I initially voted Revan because I hate Nihilus, and also hadn't read the thread or thought of Nihilus' Force Suck power.


Emperor Devon brings up good evidence that Nihilus' power is effective in sudden combat. That's the kind of the stuff that helps answer the relevant questions about Nihilus' power, rather than complaints that Revan sucks and claims that Nihilus is a god.


God is a placebo with nasty side effects.
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Old 12-06-2006, 12:17 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
And that is why Nihlius can win. The more powerful Revan is...the more powerful Nihlius becomes, and the more tasty Revan is. Nihlius wins, because of the NihliusDrain, that is uncounterable, expect via The Exile.

If Nihlius did not have this Drain, then he can be easily defeated. But then, you take away the only thing that make Nihlius cool.
You actually do not understand the how Revan's Force Storm works. Revan does not needs to get close to Nihilus in-order to use his Force Storm on him. He can eliminate Nihilus with this power from many yards back.

It is not like Sion vs Nihilus scenario.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
*sigh*...I'm getting tired of this Revan fan-boy stuff. Revan cannot "drain" the Force. He had no power like that whatsoever. He turned all those Jedi by using the Trayus Core. As Kreia says, it corrupts anything that walks on its surface. If Revan can use these "Dark Side enregies to turn the tides in huge battles," then why would everyone always talk about how special Bastila's Battle Meditation is?
You did not understand those lines properly. Revan feeds on Dark Side energies and powers. Malak also knew Force Drain and many other DS powers but his powers were un-effective on Revan because Revan consumed or absorbed any DS power related attack. He does not gets killed by DS powers including Force Drain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
And I'm also tired of this "Revan could kill Nihilus before he is able to use his Force drain." That's not a plausible explanation. No matter how "fast" Revan is, Nihilus would drain all the Force out of Revan and he's be dead in a matter of seconds.
It is possible because Revan knows some Force Powers that can eliminate his enemies from large distances. You have to keep this thing in mind. Revan does not even needs to get close to Nihilus to finish him off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
*
Just because it's finished doesn't mean that they had already included it in the game. And if Sion tried to face Nihilus one-on-one, then that is exactly what would happen. Sion, like Revan, would never even have a chance.
And you forgot to notice that Sion was a big idiot. He simply ignited his Light Saber and rushed towards Nihilus to strike him down, despite the knowledge that Nihilus could use his Force Drain on him and he did that.

Sion should have used some Force Moves on Nihilus to surprise him completely and then it would be a different story.

But Revan is not like Sion. He is much more smarter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
*
There's that same argument again. "Revan could kill him before he had a chance to drain his Force." Once again, it doesn't matter how fast anyone is. Nihilus would drain anyone that got near him before they even had a chance, with the exception of the Exile of course.
Like I said before that Revan can eliminate Nihilus from a large distance so he can win in this fight. I have already explained how.

Last edited by RedHawke; 12-07-2006 at 07:59 AM. Reason: Combining double post...
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Old 12-06-2006, 03:16 AM   #68
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Its cut content for a reason right? I mean its a finished cutscene so they didn't remove it because it would hve taken time, which implies they didn't like it and dropped it, prehaps this posed Nihilus overpowered in the cutscene?
It's finished, yes, but that's not the reason it was removed. Note that Sion says the jedi are all dead. Since Sion and Nihilus consider the Exile to be a jedi, this would mean the Exile is dead, which is precisely the impression that was to be given to both Sion and the Exile's companions at one point in the game. However, it was never implemented because Obsidian didn't have the time to finish writing all the stuff that set up the plot. And without that, you cannot have the cutscene. Just like you cannot have the G0T0 vs. HK-47 showdown on Malachor V without first having the HK-factory on Telos, which was also unfinished, and which therefore meant that that cutscene had to be cut too.

So yes, the reason for the cut was the rushed schedule rearing its ugly head once more. Not because the scene itself wasn't finished, but because the part of the game that would lead up to it wasn't.


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Old 12-06-2006, 09:31 AM   #69
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It is possible because Revan knows some Force Powers that can eliminate his enemies from large distances. You have to keep this thing in mind. Revan does not even needs to get close to Nihilus to finish him off.
Give me citations, real citiations of Revan having these Force Powers that can target people from large distances? And that Revan has these Force Powers? And if those distances, are, say, larger than 5 footsteps away?

Otherwise, I'll believe what you are spouting is fanboy nonsense.

Nihlius is there to be killed only by the Exile. Revan may be more powerful than Exile is any case, but the Exile is there for a reason in K2. He, and Nihlius, is important to the plot.
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Old 12-06-2006, 02:02 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
You did not understand those lines properly. Revan feeds on Dark Side energies and powers. Malak also knew Force Drain and many other DS powers but his powers were un-effective on Revan because Revan consumed or absorbed any DS power related attack. He does not gets killed by DS powers including Force Drain.
Um...I don't think so. Show me somewhere in the game or another official reference where it says Revan can do these things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is possible because Revan knows some Force Powers that can eliminate his enemies from large distances. You have to keep this thing in mind. Revan does not even needs to get close to Nihilus to finish him off.
Another thing that I would like to have some proof about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Like I said before that Revan can eliminate Nihilus from a large distance so he can win in this fight. I have already explained how.
The same thing. Show me some proof.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JawaJoey
1. The no defense thing is exactly what people are questioning, and it isn't explicitly clear.
Now I quote Kreia on this: "There are some techniques in the Force to which there is no defense." That's pretty explicitly clear IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JawaJoey
2. Just standing there does the slow effect... he doesn't insta kill everyone around him always. And if he did anything less than suddenly do the big power, then Revan would unquestionably win.
ED made a good point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
For everyone's future reference, there is evidence that Nihilus can kill people with his all-powerful drain before they react. Unseen, Unheard confirms that he went to the surface of Katarr to consume the Jedi there, and despite going against a whole conclave of Masters (obviously more than a match for Revan), he was clearly able to kill them.

No credence to Nihilus' power being slow, there.
I can't believe how far Revan is up in the poll. I'm embarrassed to say that I voted for him, but that was when I was letting biased, fan-boy judgment get in the way.


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Old 12-06-2006, 02:53 PM   #71
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I can't believe how far Revan is up in the poll. I'm embarrassed to say that I voted for him, but that was when I was letting biased, fan-boy judgment get in the way.
At least you moved on, which is always commendable.


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Old 12-06-2006, 06:59 PM   #72
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Give me citations, real citiations of Revan having these Force Powers that can target people from large distances? And that Revan has these Force Powers? And if those distances, are, say, larger than 5 footsteps away?

Otherwise, I'll believe what you are spouting is fanboy nonsense.
On Lehon planet, The One - (Leader of the Black Rakatan faction) tells you that Revan slaughtered many of his Rakatan warriors and Rancor Beasts by his deadly "Force Lightening Storm" in an instant attack.

The One also describes that how Revan's Force Storm hit his warriors and beasts. He says that "it came from the sky and killed many of my warriors and beasts instantly".

Revan's Force Lightening Storm is a power of gigantic proportions, which can kill large number of individuals in a single hit and it hits the targets from above and it can spread to large distances.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7901372
Originally posted by The Planet
Nihlius is there to be killed only by the Exile. Revan may be more powerful than Exile is any case, but the Exile is there for a reason in K2. He, and Nihlius, is important to the plot.
I can understand this logic but Exile does not knows the move that I have mentioned above.

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Old 12-06-2006, 07:14 PM   #73
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On Lehon planet, The One - (Leader of the Black Rakatan faction) tells you that Revan slaughtered many of his Rakatan warriors and Rancor Beasts by his deadly "Force Lightening Storm" in an instant attack.
THAT?

Bah. That's just regural Force Lighting. We're talking about the Raktan race who hasn't even seen the Force until just recently. The Black Raktan is exagrating the effects, being scared and shocked. (If someone waved their hands and brought lighting to the ground...I would be very scared and shocked too)

Any DSer can do a Force Storm as the Raktans describe it. The Exile, Revan. You have to be close to your enemy though. It could kill off the Raktans who are weak against the Force, but Nihlius may only suffer some damage from it. And Nihlius would drain Revan at that distance, so it is moot.
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Old 12-06-2006, 07:28 PM   #74
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Um...I don't think so. Show me somewhere in the game or another official reference where it says Revan can do these things.
Why not check this link: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mandalorian_Wars

Note: Read the portion called "The War Ends".

And all the details in this article were taken and compiled from at-least 4 canon sources.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
Another thing that I would like to have some proof about.
On Lehon planet, The One - (Leader of the Black Rakatan faction) tells you that Revan slaughtered many of his Rakatan warriors and Rancor Beasts by his deadly "Force Lightening Storm" in an instant attack.

The One also describes that how Revan's Force Storm hit his warriors and beasts. He says that "it came from the sky and killed many of my warriors and beasts instantly".

Revan's Force Lightening Storm is a power of gigantic proportions, which can kill large number of individuals in a single hit and it hits the targets from above and it can spread to large distances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
The same thing. Show me some proof.
Posted above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
Now I quote Kreia on this: "There are some techniques in the Force to which there is no defense." That's pretty explicitly clear IMO.
A possibility but she was not always right.
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Old 12-06-2006, 07:35 PM   #75
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I would love to see how this discussion would be goin if the situation was reversed. Say that, still having been your character in K1, Revan had Nihilus' power of bein able to drain the Force and Nihilus was just like Revan. The Revan fan-boys would be goin on about how powerful Revan's drain is. This whole thing about how Revan could use his "ultra powerful" Super Force Lighting (or however he said it) and kill Nihilus before he had a chance to drain him is just personal, biased feelings about Revan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
On Lehon planet, The One - (Leader of the Black Rakatan faction) tells you that Revan slaughtered many of his Rakatan warriors and Rancor Beasts by his deadly "Force Lightening Storm" in an instant attack.

The One also describes that how Revan's Force Storm hit his warriors and beasts. He says that "it came from the sky and killed many of my warriors and beasts instantly".

Revan's Force Lightening Storm is a power of gigantic proportions, which can kill large number of individuals in a single hit and it hits the targets from above and it can spread to large distances.
The Rakatans know nothing of the Force, and if they saw somebody shooting lighting out of their fingertips at them, then they would be awe-stricken. They would have no idea what had happened and would think that Revan is a god.

The truth is, although he is my favorite SW character, Revan is overhyped and the majority of the blame goes to Revan fan-boys who think that he is some uber-powerful god. Revan has no incredibl Force ability like that: his best attributes are his great saber skills (which still are far from the best ever) and his ability to best his enemy in large battles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Why not check this link: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mandalorian_Wars

Note: Read the portion called "The War Ends".

And all the details in this article were taken and compiled from at-least 4 canon sources.
I know all that. And as I've stated before, he used the power of the Trayus Core to turn those Jedi. Revan had no special ability like that.
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Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
A possibility but she was not always right.
Hardly a reason for me to alter my thinking.


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Old 12-06-2006, 07:37 PM   #76
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Now I quote Kreia on this: "There are some techniques in the Force to which there is no defense." That's pretty explicitly clear IMO.
Um, yes, I remember that line, and specifically thought of it in fact, but I thought it was obvious that a line like that by no means explicitly refers to Nihilus' power. As clear as the meaning is, the line is incredibly vague in the relevant context.
I'm not sure of the exact context, I thought it was about when she was overthrown.
...looking it up...
Aha, it is Kreia describing her fall.
"There are dark places in the galaxy, where few tread. Ancient centers of learning, of knowledge. But I did not walk alone. To be united by hatred is a fragile alliance at best. But my will was not law. There were disagreements, ambition . . . and hunger for power. There are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense. I was cast down, stripped of my power, exiled. I suffered indignities, and fell into darkness."

"techniques against which there is no defense" basically only means that in her betrayal, Sion and Nihilus did something that she simply couldn't resist. It is once again unclear what. "stripped of her power" probably means stripped of her title and authority, not her ability to command the force, since she still retains her abilities of perception and mind trickery and sensitivity to the nature of the force.

If she was referring specifically to Nihilus' power, then the evidence shows that it wasn't able to do any permanent or significant damage to her.
Therefore, either she was not talking about his power,
or, his power wasn't terribly crippling to one strong in the force.

Why Sion and Nihilus didn't kill Kreia is uncertain. Perhaps they assumed that stripped of most of her force power, she would die, and left her to suffer. But they probably could have killed her.

So assuming she was really talking about Nihilus's power, he probably could defeat Revan with it.

Quote:
ED made a good point.
I agree, I was just arguing against the claim that Nihilus wouldn't even have to do anything to automatically insta win.


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Old 12-06-2006, 07:41 PM   #77
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THAT?

Bah. That's just regural Force Lighting. We're talking about the Raktan race who hasn't even seen the Force until just recently. The Black Raktan is exagrating the effects, being scared and shocked. (If someone waved their hands and brought lighting to the ground...I would be very scared and shocked too)
That regural Force Lightning spread in such a scale that it slaughtered many Rakatan warriors and Rancor beasts in a single hit, which means it was much more deadly then a normal Force Lightning.

And why would "The One" lie after seeing so many of his warriors dead? No one lies in such a case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Any DSer can do a Force Storm as the Raktans describe it. The Exile, Revan. You have to be close to your enemy though. It could kill off the Raktans who are weak against the Force, but Nihlius may only suffer some damage from it. And Nihlius would drain Revan at that distance, so it is moot.
Not all DS users can use "Force Lightning Storm". It requires mastering "Force Lightning" to an immense level. Canonically only "Darth Sidious" and "Darth Bane" could demonstrate this ability apart from "Darth Revan".

And in canonical reality, Nihilus or any Sith Lord will be eliminated instantly from such an attack. We already know that what a normal Force Lightning can do to an individual when it hits him/her in the Star Wars Movies. And we are talking about the mighty "Force Lightning Storm" power here, which spreads to immense proportions.

You can't use Game Mechanices in the arguements. In reality, a Jedi (no matter how powerful) could die with a single hit of a Light Saber but in KOTOR games, you have to hit your targets multiple times to kill them, which is canonically not true.

And Revan's power killed some mighty Rancor Beats as well, who are not weak as we have seen one in SW: ROJ movie.

My point is not moot.

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Old 12-06-2006, 07:44 PM   #78
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"techniques against which there is no defense" basically only means that in her betrayal, Sion and Nihilus did something that she simply couldn't resist. It is once again unclear what. "stripped of her power" probably means stripped of her title and authority, not her ability to command the force, since she still retains her abilities of perception and mind trickery and sensitivity to the nature of the force.
I would agree with you, but at the end of K2, when she is talking about how the exile is unique, Kreia said:

"There will be those who will deny the force, try to forget it, but they manitan unconusius ties. And there would be those, like me, who have had the Force stripped from them."

So, I think Kreia was stripped of the Force, but regained her powers via the same method the Exile used to regain her powers...by using Force Bonds.
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Old 12-06-2006, 07:44 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
On Lehon planet, The One - (Leader of the Black Rakatan faction) tells you that Revan slaughtered many of his Rakatan warriors and Rancor Beasts by his deadly "Force Lightening Storm" in an instant attack.

The One also describes that how Revan's Force Storm hit his warriors and beasts. He says that "it came from the sky and killed many of my warriors and beasts instantly".

Revan's Force Lightening Storm is a power of gigantic proportions, which can kill large number of individuals in a single hit and it hits the targets from above and it can spread to large distances.
I must say that I agree with SilentScope001. It seems to me that what The One is describing is simply how a non-forceuser with absolutely no knowledge or even the slightest comprehension of even the existence of the Force would describe a fairly "common" Force Storm.

Don't forget that the Rakatans lost their force abilities due to their meddling with the Star Forge, which was a long, LONG time before KotOR1 (more than 20,000 years). Only the ancients even have knowledge of the Force, and they are interested in The One because they suspect that he has emerging force potential. The only conclusion there is that the Force is a completely alien concept to the Rakata, particularly after most of their civilization fell into a dark age and forgot all about their past, except for the ancients, who are a dying breed fighting a losing war, when you meet them.

If I took a flame-thrower, a mini-gun, and a bazooka back in time just a thousand years, let along 20,000, imagine how the people watching my use of these weapons would think. It would blow their minds to say the least, and they might consider me a God of unlimited power. Revan was just the same to the Rakata, and he exploited it all that he could too. Besides, if Revan could do that, why does he never do it in the game?

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
That regural Force Lightning spread in such a scale that slaughtered many Rakatan warriors and Rancor beasts in a single hit, which means it was much more deadly then normal Force Lightning.
I've done far worse with the Exile when exploiting the infinite Hssiss spawning point in KotOR2. They may not all have died in a single hit, but when they bit the dust, they sure died by the dozens... And given how much less of a threat the Rakatans are compared to Hssiss, that's not a particularly impressive observation IMHO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Not all DS users can use "Force Lightning Storm". It requires mastering "Force Lightning" to an immense level. Canonically only "Darth Sidious" and "Darth Bane" could demonstrate this ability apart from "Darth Revan".
Strange. I distinctly remember Dooku using it in Episode II... and Yoda even using it right back at him...

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
And in canonical reality, Nihilus or any Sith Lord will be eliminated from such an attack. We already know that what a normal Force Lightning can do to an individual when it hits him/her in the Star Wars Movies. And we are talking about the mighty "Force Lightning Storm" power here, which spreads to immense proportions.
Well, given we might just as well argue that Windu was killed from the fall as from being shocked by Sidious, it would seem that no person has ever actually been killed by a force lightning or storm in the movies. That doesn't exactly make for the most compelling argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
You can't use Game Mechanices in the arguements. In reality, a Jedi (no matter how powerful) could die with a single hit of a Light Saber but in KOTOR games, you have to hit your targets multiple times to kill them, which is canonically not true.
Actually, that's true, but it only further weakens your arguments, since we see nobody killed by force storms/lightnings, while people are killed by lightsabers all over the place. That would lead us to the conclusion that lightsabers are far more dangerous than any force storm or lightning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
And Revan's power killed some mighty Rancor Beats as well, who are not weak as we have seen one in SW: ROJ movie.

My point is not moot.
Given that I've killed boatfuls of Hssiss - who also aren't pushovers - with the Exile's Force Storms, I would respectfully have to disagree...


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Last edited by Jediphile; 12-06-2006 at 08:11 PM.
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Old 12-06-2006, 07:58 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
I must say that I agree with SilentScope001. It seems to me that what The One is describing is simply how a non-forceuser with absolutely no knowledge or even the slightest comprehension of even the existence of the Force would describe a fairly "common" Force Storm.

Don't forget that the Rakatans lost their force abilities due to their meddling with the Star Forge, which was a long, LONG time before KotOR1 (more than 20,000 years). Only the ancients even have knowledge of the Force, and they are interested in The One because they suspect that he has emerging force potential. The only conclusion there is that the Force is a completely alien concept to the Rakata, particularly after most of their civilization fell into a dark age and forgot all about their past, except for the ancients, who are a dying breed fighting a losing war, when you meet them.

If I took a flame-thrower, a mini-gun, and a bazooka back in time just a thousand years, let along 20,000, imagine how the people watching my use of these weapons would think. It would blow their minds to say the least, and they might consider me a God of unlimited power. Revan was just the same to the Rakata, and he exploited it all that he could too. Besides, if Revan could do that, why does he never do it in the game?
Can't you understand that "The One" said that many of his warriors (along with the beasts) died in that attack by Revan?

A normal Force Lightning only hits a single individual. But Revan's Lightning hit many individuals and beasts in a single attack. As The One narrates that "it came down from the sky and slaughtered many of warriors and beats".

Normal Force Lightning does not works like that. It does not hits the target from above. And we have seen the impact of a normal Force Lightning attack on the individuals in the canon movies. And we are talking about Super Force Lightning Storm over here, which can kill large number of individuals instantly.

Also, The One is not so primitive as you try to portray him to be. He became famous after killing a "Mandalorian". And we already know that how heavily armed are Mandalorians actually.

So try to get your facts straight and use some logic.
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