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View Poll Results: Who would win in a fight?
Revan 149 74.13%
Nihilus 52 25.87%
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Thread: Revan VS. Nihilus... who would win
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Old 12-06-2006, 07:00 PM   #81
Titanius Anglesmith
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
That regural Force Lightning spread in such a scale that slaughtered many Rakatan warriors and Rancor beasts in a single hit, which means it was much more deadly then normal Force Lightning.

And why would "The One" lie after seeing so many of his warriors dead. No one lies in such a case.
As I said, the Black Rakata had never seen the Force. They were amazed at whta they saw and most likely exaggerate. The Ancients who built the Star Forge were the only ones of their species to have any knowledge of the Force.
Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Not all DS users can use "Force Lightning Storm". It requires mastering "Force Lightning" to an immense level. Canonically only "Darth Sidious" and "Darth Bane" could demonstrate this ability apart from "Darth Revan".

And in canonical reality, Nihilus or any Sith Lord will be eliminated from such an attack. We already know that what a normal Force Lightning can do to an individual when it hits him/her in the Star Wars Movies. And we are talking about the mighty "Force Lightning Storm" power here, which spreads to immense proportions.
I'm geussing that Nihilus has a bit more resistance to the Force than some Rakata who knew nothing about it. And as Nihilus can drain the Force, it would seem to me that he can also absorb it, since eating up Force is what increases his power.
Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
You can't use Game Mechanices in the arguements. In reality, a Jedi (no matter how powerful) could die with a single hit of a Light Saber but in KOTOR games, you have to hit your targets multiple times to kill them, which is canonically not true.

And Revan's power killed some mighty Rancor Beats as well, who are not weak as we have seen one in SW: ROJ movie.
I assume that you have played KotOR before so you know that the Rancor that are on the Unknown World are not the same type of Rancor that we see on ROTJ (or in the Taris Sewers for that matter). Those rancor are much weaker than the larger rancor in the movie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Can't you understand that "The One" said that many of his warriors (along with the beasts) died in that attack by Revan?

A normal Force Lightning only hits a single individual. But Revan's Lightning hit many individuals and beasts in a single attack. As The One narrates that "it came down from the sky and slaughtered many of warriors and beats".

Normal Force Lightning does not works like that. It does not hits the target from above. And we have seen the impact of a normal Force Lightning attack on the individuals in the canon movies. And we are talking about Super Force Lightning Storm over here, which can kill large number of individuals instantly.
Uh...you have played KotOR before haven't you. Ever had the power Force Storm? That hits plenty of enemies and it does (in a manner of speaking) come down from the sky. The PC holds his hand up, lighting shoots up and then splits up to attack all enemies around you. And, by previous experiences of using that power, it's pretty darn powerful. I've never heard of this Super Force Lighting that Revan apparently has (by what you say that is).
Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Also, The One is not so primitive as you try to portray him to be. He became famous after killing a "Mandalorian". And we already know that how heavily armed are Mandalorians actually.

So try to get your facts straight and use some logic.
[sarcasm]Killed a Mandalorian?! Wow that's unbelievable![/sarcasm]

C'mon...wookiees can kill Mandalorians. And the logical thing to do, would be to just accept that Revan is not all-powerful.


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Old 12-06-2006, 07:12 PM   #82
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For even further evidence, remember that Nihilus killed every living thing on Katarr. That implies that once used, his power can stretch across the distance of thousands of miles. I highly doubt Revan has powers that can travel a similar distance.

And to quote myseful for emphasis:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
For everyone's future reference, there is evidence that Nihilus can kill people with his all-powerful drain before they react. Unseen, Unheard confirms that he went to the surface of Katarr to consume the Jedi there, and despite going against a whole conclave of Masters (obviously more than a match for Revan), he was clearly able to kill them.

No credence to Nihilus' power being slow, there.


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Old 12-06-2006, 07:13 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
As I said, the Black Rakata had never seen the Force. They were amazed at whta they saw and most likely exaggerate. The Ancients who built the Star Forge were the only ones of their species to have any knowledge of the Force.
The One knows about the Force actually but he uses the term "Magical Power" to describe it.

He saw many of his warriors and beasts killed by Revan in a single attack. So he has no reason to exaggerate in such a case. He was not a "Gizka" after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
I'm geussing that Nihilus has a bit more resistance to the Force than some Rakata who knew nothing about it. And as Nihilus can drain the Force, it would seem to me that he can also absorb it, since eating up Force is what increases his power.
Of course, a Sith Lord does knows some defensive abilities but no one can deflect or survive such a gigantic Force Attack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
I assume that you have played KotOR before so you know that the Rancor that are on the Unknown World are not the same type of Rancor that we see on ROTJ (or in the Taris Sewers for that matter). Those rancor are much weaker than the larger rancor in the movie.
Those Beasts were still large enough to eat people and could cause massive damage with a single hit of their large claws. And they were also trained to fight in battles.

So they were not that weak as you try to make them look like.
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Old 12-06-2006, 07:14 PM   #84
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S_W_LeGenD, you're talking about the Force power Force Storm. I can do that with Jolee, and I've seen Visas clear whole rooms of life on Onderon and the Ravenger with it. It's not something that is unique to Revan and Revan alone. And as others have said the Black Rakata (that would be the One's tribe) had never, ever, ever seen anyone use the Force before. Revan could have picked up a pebble and thrown it at the One, using the Force, and he would have bowed down to her like she was a god.

That all said I voted for Nihilus. The only reason he fell to the Exile, was because the Exile is dead to the Force (even Visas says that what she feels in the Exile is not something you would normally feel from "a living thing").


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Old 12-06-2006, 07:24 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Can't you understand that "The One" said that many of his warriors (along with the beasts) died in that attack by Revan?
My Exile has killed many, many Hssiss just the same way. So understanding that Revan killed many warrios is not the problem - the problem is that killing many warriors does make Revan's use of Force Storm unique in any way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
A normal Force Lightning only hits a single individual.
No. Shock hits only a single individual. Force Lightning can hit several, but strikes only in a straight line. The only advantage of Force Storm over Force Lightning is that it strikes in a radius around the user instead of from a straight from him. The damage done is the same, however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
But Revan's Lightning hit many individuals and beasts in a single attack. As The One narrates that "it came down from the sky and slaughtered many of warriors and beats".

Normal Force Lightning does not works like that. It does not hits the target from above. And we have seen the impact of a normal Force Lightning attack on the individuals in the canon movies. And we are talking about Super Force Lightning Storm over here, which can kill large number of individuals instantly.
Force Lightning is not the same as Force Storm, and my Force Storms with the Exile were always far more deadly than Revan's for the simple reason that the Exile could reach higher levels. And when I play either game, my force Storms always strike from above, meaning "the sky".

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Also, The One is not so primitive as you try to portray him to be. He became famous after killing a "Mandalorian". And we already know that how heavily armed are Mandalorians actually.
I did not call him primitive. I said that he had no inkling of the Force and therefore interpreted its use and mere existence as mind-shattering. I do not think those are the same, nor do I think that is an overstatement. That he can learn how to use weapons may make him a competent warrior and clever individual, but it does not mean that the discovery of someone using lightning magic apparently conjured out of thin air will not be scary and shocking (!) to him, if you'll forgive the pun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
So try to get your facts straight and use some logic.
Sound advice in any case... for either of us

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
The One knows about the Force actually but he uses the term "Magical Power" to describe it.
Actually, that is precisely how someone who have absolutely no idea of what the Force is would describe it. Besides, where would he know anything about the Force from, given that it has been lost to the Rakata for more than 20 millennia AND that they've gone through at least one dark age since?

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Of course, a Sith Lord does knows some defensive abilities but no one can deflect or survive such a gigantic Force Attack.
No one? Including Revan?

That is why Revan would lose - he would not be able to resist Nihilus' draining powers, but Nihilus would not have to drain anything Revan could throw at him - he could simply absorb it and "eat" it as Revan tried to use it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Those Beasts were still large enough to eat people and could cause massive damage with a single hit of their large claws. And they were also trained to fight in battles.
So are Hssiss (with their bites)

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
So they were not that weak as you try to make them look like.
Not weak, but in my experience certainly not as tough to kill as the Hssiss were either...


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Last edited by Jediphile; 12-06-2006 at 07:35 PM.
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Old 12-06-2006, 07:26 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
The One knows about the Force actually but he uses the term "Magical Power" to describe it.
He had never seen it in action and had no idea how it was used. So if many of his men were killed by a blast of Force Storm, then of course he would say that it was incredibly powerful and he had never seen anything like it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Of course, a Sith Lord does knows some defensive abilities but no one can deflect or survive such a gigantic Force Attack.
Yep...so lets put that into the situation of the topic of this discussion. Revan was also a Sith Lord, he knew some defensive abilities. Nihilus' Force Drain was a very powerful attack which Revan would also not be able to resist. And that's a fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Those Beasts were still large enough to eat people and could cause massive damage with a single hit of their large claws. And they were also trained to fight in battles.

So they were not that weak as you try to make them look like.
I wasn't saying that they were weak: I was just sayin that they were much smaller and inferior to the large rancor we see on ROTJ, which was the example you used.


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Old 12-06-2006, 07:27 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
Uh...you have played KotOR before haven't you. Ever had the power Force Storm? That hits plenty of enemies and it does (in a manner of speaking) come down from the sky. The PC holds his hand up, lighting shoots up and then splits up to attack all enemies around you. And, by previous experiences of using that power, it's pretty darn powerful.
Force Lightning Storm forms a gigantic ark of large number of deadly Lightning strikes, so thats why those strikes hit the targets from above.

And Force Powers in the games are immensly under-powered by Game Mechanics. Canonically, Force Powers are much more effective then that. And "Game Mechanics" should not be used in proper debates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
I've never heard of this Super Force Lighting that Revan apparently has (by what you say that is).[sarcasm]Killed a Mandalorian?! Wow that's unbelievable![/sarcasm]

C'mon...wookiees can kill Mandalorians. And the logical thing to do, would be to just accept that Revan is not all-powerful.
It is a powerful "Force Lightning Storm" ability which he (Revan) demonstrated in Lehon planet.

And Wookiees are ferocious warriors and they can use all kinds of advanced weapons in fights, so they can kill a mandalorian easily.

And The One, who mainly relies on melee weapons in a fight did a notable job by killing such a foe who was far more deadly then him.
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Old 12-06-2006, 07:35 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Force Lightning Storm forms a gigantic ark of large number of deadly Lightning strikes, so thats why those strikes hit the targets from above.

And Force Powers in the games are immensly under-powered by Game Mechanics. Canonically, Force Powers are much more effective then that. And like I said before that you can't use "Game Mechanics" in proper debates.
First off, get the facts straight. Force Lightning and Force Storm are different powers. There is no "Force Lightning Storm." And I was using the example of how the PC does it in the game to tell you exactly how Force Storm works.

And Revan is not unique in his ability to use Force Storm. As Jediphile said, the Exile can use it to a far greater extent than Revan. This power that you say he has cannot spread over hundreds of miles, more like about 20 feet.

Wookies are pretty primitive. Bowcasters and blades is what they use (at least on KotOR that's what they use). And besides, The One was a good fighter, and easily the best out of any other Black Rakata.


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Old 12-06-2006, 07:40 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
He had never seen it in action and had no idea how it was used. So if many of his men were killed by a blast of Force Storm, then of course he would say that it was incredibly powerful and he had never seen anything like it.
And that power was pretty effective against large number of enemies, and we are talking about using it on a single individual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
Yep...so lets put that into the situation of the topic of this discussion. Revan was also a Sith Lord, he knew some defensive abilities. Nihilus' Force Drain was a very powerful attack which Revan would also not be able to resist.
Revan can absord DS power. He demonstrated this ability on Malachor V and survived. He feeds on DS energies. I have provided a source above that has mentioned these details.

And I agree that Nihilus Force Drain was a very powerful attack and anyone getting caught in it will be in trouble. But Revan aborbs Dark Side powers and his resistance will be much stronger then expected.

Also, he can use his "Force Lightning Storm" ability and can eliminate Nihilus from many yards back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
And that's a fact.I wasn't saying that they were weak: I was just sayin that they were much smaller and inferior to the large rancor we see on ROTJ, which was the example you used.
Big or small, they were deadly.

And I used a Mod in which that huge Rancor (in Taris) could be engaged in a Korriban Cave and I (as a Jedi) killed that huge beast with just 5 hits. So, it shows that being "large in size" does not always helps.
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Old 12-06-2006, 07:41 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
And Force Powers in the games are immensly under-powered by Game Mechanics. Canonically, Force Powers are much more effective then that. And "Game Mechanics" should not be used in proper debates.
And again, given that we've never seen anyone being actually killed by force lightning in the movies (I don't count Windu, who fell to his death), that doesn't sound very compelling to me. Lightsabers kill people all over the place. Force Lightning and Force Storms don't. Indeed, Yoda was able to resist the use of Force Lightning in both Episodes II and III.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
And that power was pretty effective against large number of enemies, and we are talking about using it on a single individual.
Force Storm doesn't work like that - against a single individual, it is no better than Shock or Force Lightning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan can absord DS power. He demonstrated this ability on Malachor V and survived. He feeds on DS energies. I have provided a source above that has mentioned these details.
And either you misunderstood or those sources did. You really need to consider the original sources, which are mostly the following:

HK-47: "Observation: Master, that was the lesson of Malachor. Any Jedi involved in the systematic slaughter on such a scale cannot help but doubt and question themselves.Observation: Master, I do not believe that the Mandalorians were the true target at Malachor - I believe that the intention was to destroy the Jedi, break their will, and make them loyal to Revan.I do not know if you examined the records of the deaths on Malachor, but you cannot escape that many of the Jedi and Republic soldiers who died were not Revan's strongest supporters. Observation: I believe that Revan was "cleaning house" at Malachor V. What ones did not die became Revan's allies against the Republic."

This is how Revan manipulated the events to convert the jedi to sith at Malachor V. However, it says nothing of those dark side powers, because HK-47 can speak only from what he can comprehend as a machine. Kreia, however, puts in perspective at THE essential part of TSL, when the master gather on Dantooine.

Kreia: "There is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface, drowns them in the power of the dark side - it corrupts all life. And it feeds on death. Revan knew the power of such places... and the power in making them. They can be used to break the will of others... of Jedi, promising them power, and turning them to the dark side.Did you never wonder how Revan corrupted so many of the Jedi, so much of the Republic, so quickly?The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion.Culminating a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from... save one."

That's where your dark power comes from - the Trayus Core. Revan used it to his advantage so that he could convert the jedi. But it does not give him any special powers that he can take with him beyond the knowledge he could learn at the Trayus Academy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
And I agree that Nihilus Force Drain was a very powerful attack and anyone getting caught in it will be in trouble. But Revan aborbs Dark Side powers and his resistance will be much stronger then expected.
And even if I agreed with that, Nihilus can absorb the Force itself...

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Also, he can use his "Force Lightning Storm" ability and can eliminate Nihilus from many yards back.
While Nihilus can absorb planets from orbit...

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Big or small, they were deadly.

And I used a Mod in which that huge Rancor (in Taris) could be engaged in a Korriban Cave and I (as a Jedi) killed that huge beast with just 5 hits. So, it shows that being "large in size" does not always helps.
Not by changing the size of a creature with a mod written by someone who may only have wanted larger rancors, no.


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Old 12-06-2006, 07:53 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
First off, get the facts straight. Force Lightning and Force Storm are different powers. There is no "Force Lightning Storm." And I was using the example of how the PC does it in the game to tell you exactly how Force Storm works.
My points are pretty much straight but you fail to understand them. I know that their is a force power, which is called as "Force Storm" and it was demonstrated by Darth Sidious.

But their is an another force power, which is known as Force Lightning (Storm) and both Bane and Revan have demonstrated this power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
And Revan is not unique in his ability to use Force Storm. As Jediphile said, the Exile can use it to a far greater extent than Revan. This power that you say he has cannot spread over hundreds of miles, more like about 20 feet.
Once again you are using "Game Mechanics", in your argument which is not good. Force Powers in KOTOR II are more improved then in KOTOR Game. But this is due to "Game Mechanics" and it has nothing to do with canonical reality. And we don't have proper "narrations" regarding Exile demonstrating this ability so it is not canon.

Force Lightning Storm can spread to far greater distances, as Bane demonstrated in POD Novel. So Revan can do that as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
Wookies are pretty primitive. Bowcasters and blades is what they use (at least on KotOR that's what they use). And besides, The One was a good fighter, and easily the best out of any other Black Rakata.
Wookiees are still deadly opponents and their weapons are very effective as we have seen in ROTS movie as well.

And of-course, The One was a good fighter and the leader of a Rakatan faction and was also not an idiot and he knew everything because many ships crashed in his planet and he looted the survivors of their valuables (including weapons). So he learned a lot about advanced technology through them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
And again, given that we've never seen anyone being actually killed by force lightning in the movies (I don't count Windu, who fell to his death), that doesn't sound very compelling to me. Lightsabers kill people all over the place. Force Lightning and Force Storms don't. Indeed, Yoda was able to resist the use of Force Lightning in both Episodes II and III.
Mace's vaapad was protecting him from being slaughtered by normal Force Lightning attack. His vaapad allows him to deflect the DS power related attack back to the attacker and that is why Sidious's face got scarred. And still Mace was having great difficulty in countering that Lightning attack.

And Yoda is a very powerful Jedi. He can absord Force Shock and Force Lightning but it is still deadly to him as well. We have noticed this in ROTS movie in Sidious vs Yoda show down. And Sidious's Lightning attack was so powerful that it blew the Light Saber out from the Yoda's hand in that fight.

Also in SW: ROJ, we all know very well that what would happen to Luke by the Lightning attack from Emperor, if Vader had not interrupted.

And Force Lightning Storm was never demonstrated in movies. It has been demonstrated and mentioned in EU Novels, Games and Stories only.

So you are dead wrong that Force Lightning power and Force Storm power cannot kill a Jedi or Sith. And Force Storms are far more deadly then normal Force Powers.

Last edited by RedHawke; 12-07-2006 at 06:58 AM. Reason: Combining double post...
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Old 12-06-2006, 08:06 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
So try to get your facts straight and use some logic.
Since you probably finished your previous post only a minute after mine:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
For even further evidence, remember that Nihilus killed every living thing on Katarr. That implies that once used, his power can stretch across the distance of thousands of miles. I highly doubt Revan has powers that can travel a similar distance.

And to quote myseful for emphasis:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
For everyone's future reference, there is evidence that Nihilus can kill people with his all-powerful drain before they react. Unseen, Unheard confirms that he went to the surface of Katarr to consume the Jedi there, and despite going against a whole conclave of Masters (obviously more than a match for Revan), he was clearly able to kill them.

No credence to Nihilus' power being slow, there.
I'd love to hear how Revan can still be more powerful.


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Old 12-06-2006, 08:15 PM   #93
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Well, it looks like I don't have to argue why Revan wouldn't beat Nihilus, since others are doing that quite well. Regardless of whether Nihilus can kill force users by just standing there or not, Revan would still be weakened just getting near Nihilus, because look at those Sith on the Ravager bridge.

They were all half dead, all weakened. Assuming that Revan is more powerful than all those Sith, he/she would be weakened even more by just getting near Nihilus, possibly even killed.

The only way Revan could win would be to attack from afar, but it would have to be from a fair distance, since as Emperor Devon said, Nihilus' attack works from long distances, since he wiped out a whole planet at once.

Even then, the Sith in K2 operate on stealth and guile. Revan would have to be careful not to be detected by the Sith, and he/she would have to find them in the first place, but since these Sith are drawn to powerful Jedi, it would be hard, almost impossible for Revan to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
Have you got nothing but contempt for Revan, Architect?
Revan is average? What are the other jedi then, pawns? You can't deny that Revan IS special and extraordinary in the Kotor era.
Yes, Revan was above average in the KotOR era. But in the Star Wars timeline as a whole, Revan was just average. There are many Jedi and Sith who were greater and more powerful than Revan IMO.

Just to name a few, Marka Ragnos, Yoda, Palpatine, Luke, Vader/Anakin, Exar Kun, Freedon Nadd, Tulak Hord, Mace Windu, Obi-Wan Kinobi and Darth Sidious are all more powerful than Revan.

Heck, I don't even think that Revan was the most powerful force user in the KotOR era. I think the Exile, Kreia, Sion and Nihilus were all more powerful than Revan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
I believe most of what you say, but if, like Kreia states (and what Kreia says is NOT necessarily true) Nihilus kills everything around him, just by his presence, how come there is that little cutscene were Nihilus attempts to use a drain like power on the Exile and fails?
Wouldn't that be unnecessary? In that case, his mere presence is not enough?
Nihilus fails because the Exile is a wound in the force. Nihilus probably does have to do more than just stand there to win against an opponent, but look at those Sith on the Ravager bridge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
Oh, and Nihilus is capable of destroying all life, since every life is touched by the force, thus wiping out entire planets? Did I get that right? Everyone is connected to the force?
So, in Mandalor's case, that connection was apparently not enough to instantly kill him? Or could it be, that Nihilus can only kill force sensitives? I wonder why you have "saved" Telos then. Noone would have died, except you and the other few force sensitives.
Yes, everyone is connected to the force. If the Exile didn't stop Nihilus, then all life would have been wiped out. You see, the galaxy is one big food platter for Nihilus. He was going for the big prizes, the main course first, which are the Jedi, since they have a stronger connection to the force than your average joe. He's drawn to those who are strong in the force.

Mandalore's connection was not enough to instantly kill him. He is not a Jedi or a Sith.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
To put it simply....Nihilus would win hands down.

@The Architect, I understand your frustration with Revan fan-boys, but don't take that anger out on Revan. No matter what you say, he was a great military genius. He nearly single-handedly turned the tide of the entire Mandalorian War. And unless you think Kreia is completely out of her mind, then you know that what she says about him is right, and she always talks about him with great admiration. Now I'm not sayin he's unstoppable (he's far from it actually), but give the guy some credit.
You're right. I shouldn't take it out on Revan, but it still won't change the fact that I don't like Revan that much and think he/she is overrated. There are plenty of characters that I like more than that idiot.

Also, I haven't seen any evidence of Revan's great military strategy. While Revan could very well have been a 'great military genius', I haven't seen any proof of it, so I can't say whether he/she was/wasn't a 'great military genius'.

Also, the Republic would have won the Mandalorian Wars, with or without Revan. If Revan didn't go to war, then Malak and the Exile would have led the charge.

You have to remember that the Republic had many more troops, supplies, ships and the Jedi on their side, so it's not as if Revan didn't have any help and did everything himself/herself.


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Old 12-06-2006, 08:15 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Mace's vaapad was protecting him from being slaughtered by normal Force Lightning attack. His vaapad allows him to deflects the DS power related attack back to the attacker and that is why Sidious's face got scarred. And still Mace was having great difficulty in countering that Lightning attack.
True, but it still didn't kill him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
And Yoda is a very powerful Jedi. He can absord Force Shock and Force Lightning but it is still deadly to him as well. We have noticed this in ROTS movie in Sidious vs Yoda show down. And Sidious's Lightning attack was so powerful that it blew the Light Saber out from Yoda's attack.
Actually, when Yoda and Sidious begin their confrontation, Sidious catches Yoda off guard and zaps him to the wall before Yoda can get his defenses up. Still, Yoda didn't die...

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Also in SW: ROJ, we all know very well that what would happen to Luke by the Lightning attack, if Vader had not interrupted.
Sure. But then Luke isn't even a Jedi Knight at this point - he is no match for Sidious' force powers. Indeed, that he can hold his own against Vader in lightsaber battle is hard to believe in itself...

And yet, despite his inexperience, despite being zapped for long minutes with no defense by Palpatine who zaps him with everything he has, Luke still lives through it. Certainly he would have died, but if Palpatine had used a lightsaber, Luke would have been finished a lot quicker!

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Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
And Force Lightning Storm was never demosntrated in movies. It has been demonstrated and mentioned in EU Novels, Games and Stories only.
Ah, a "special power" that exists only in rare corners of the EU and is limited only to "special people". How very convenient...

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
So you are dead wrong that Force Lightning and Force Storms cannot kill Jedi or Sith. And Force Storms are far more deadly then normal Force Powers.
I didn't say it couldn't, I said we haven't seen it, and that this implied that use of a lightsaber was more deadly. Of course someone will die, if they are continually zapped. But clearly just using a lightsaber seems to be far more quick and deadly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
You're right. I shouldn't take it out on Revan, but it still won't change the fact that I don't like Revan that much and think he/she is overrated. There are plenty of characters that I like more than that idiot.

Also, I haven't seen any evidence of Revan's great military strategy. While Revan could very well have been a 'great military genius', I haven't seen any proof of it, so I can't say whether he/she was/wasn't a 'great military genius'.

Also, the Republic would have won the Mandalorian Wars, with or without Revan. If Revan didn't go to war, then Malak and the Exile would have led the charge.

You have to remember that the Republic had many more troops, supplies, ships and the Jedi on their side, so it's not as if Revan didn't have any help and did everything himself/herself.
I think you're being rather hard on Revan. Even Canderous admits that Revan was the deciding factor in the war, not because he was this ultimate force-god, but because he was willing to make sacrifices to win the war. Revan was ruthless as a warleader, while Malak was nothing but a thug and the Exile was timid. The republic may have had more ships, but their strategies were a disaster until Revan took the reins.

Kreia: "You were there at Malachor. Revan's choices were always his own. It was not teaching, or circumstance, or example. It was him. Is that what he was? Or was he always true to himself, no matter what personality he wore?And there is something that the Council may never understand. That perhaps Revan never fell. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference, more than anyone knew.The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war. Perhaps he became the dark lord out of necessity, to prevent a greater evil. I do not believe the Jedi Council changed Revan, as they claimed. They merely stripped away the surface, and allowed the true self to emerge again - someone who was willing to wage war to save others."

I don't always credit Kreia with telling the whole truth, but since she and Canderous agree here, I'll accept it. The Exile may be a good leader by virtue of unique force-bonding abilities, but that doesn't make him a good strategist. And Malak was always terrible at that, measuring only strength against strength, which most fools can do. No, I agree with Kreia that the galaxy would have fallen, if Revan had not gone to war.

But while I like Revan, I like him most because he is NOT some uber-force-god. Sure, Revan may have been the strongest force-user of his time, but I dare say he pales if compared to Yoda or any of the Skywalkers. He is strong in the force, but there are limits, and that's what I like about Revan - he's not just some half-clever guy soaked in uber-powers. He's far closer to an "ordinary" jedi and special mostly for how sneaky and clever he is. To give him unique powers that nobody else has is to cheapen the traits that were his real strengths, which was his strategic mind and his utter dedication to his cause.

Not that Revan didn't have his weaknesses. After all, he made the same mistake Ulic had made less than half a century before - he thought he could use the dark side of the Force without becoming a slave to it. Either that or he underestimated his own potential, since he turned into a dark lord far more dangerous than the evil he had sacrificed himself to destroy. Either way, Revan erred greatly. But in doing so it also humanizes him. He may be powerful, but he's not above making mistakes. I like that.


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Old 12-06-2006, 08:45 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by The Architect
Regardless of whether Nihilus can kill force users by just standing there or not, Revan would still be weakened just getting near Nihilus, because look at those Sith on the Ravager bridge.

They were all half dead, all weakened. Assuming that Revan is more powerful than all those Sith, he/she would be weakened even more by just getting near Nihilus, possibly even killed.
That evidence is very weak at best that Revan would be significantly weakened by being near Nihilus. The Sith on the bridge and in the ravager aren't more force attuned than Mandalore. They're just guys. Footsoldiers and crewman aren't the same as normal jedi. They're normal people, and they, like anyone, are affected by Nihilus because he's been controlling them for so long.

Even if every one of those guys WAS a dark Jedi, what about Colonel Tobin? He's no Jedi and he provides some of the best evidence for what being trapped on the Ravager is like. He's affected because he has been there longer, not because he was a Jedi or something. Mandalore wasn't affected because they just arrived. That's also a better explanation than "The Exile is immune. Oh, and Visas too."

Could you show some evidence that Nihilus' draining power works stronger on those powerful in the Force?

The point it irrelevant, though, IMO, for two reasons. One, the question is whether Nihilus can do the move suddenly and effectively. And two, even if he was significantly weakened, I can't imagine Revan losing. To appease the Artchitect , I'll even say that its not because Revan was so great, but because Nihilus sucked so bad.



Frankly, I don't think it's worth arguing with S_W_LeGenD, because he's so very wrong in so many ways, but I want comment on the fatality of lightning.
Note: The following is somewhat philosophical and self indulgent, and not really related tot he topic at hand. Ignore it if you wish.
I have my own theories about the Luke/Palps moment. http://blogs.starwars.com/jawajoey/33 (see also http://blogs.starwars.com/jawajoey/43, if you're interested).
Basically, Luke faced the lightning with hope, love, and peace, not anger, which made the effects fleeting and temporary. He made a full recovery seconds later, and was not sacrred in any way. Yoda also faced lightning on several occasions with serenity, and successfully deterred it. But Sidious was disfigured by his own lightning when fighting Mace, because he was full of hate.
In other words, the fatal effectiveness of lightning, and the dark side in general, is tied not only to emotions of the user, but also the target.
Those are my thoughts on that matter, because I've already thought them out, but in terms of this argument, I don't think its important. Tons of Jedi can use force lightning, and plenty can resist it. Heck, in KOTOR all you need is a good Fort save.


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Old 12-06-2006, 08:48 PM   #96
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But while I like Revan, I like him most because he is NOT some uber-force-god. Sure, Revan may have been the strongest force-user of his time, but I dare say he pales if compared to Yoda or any of the Skywalkers. He is strong in the force, but there are limits, and that's what I like about Revan - he's not just some half-clever guy soaked in uber-powers. He's far closer to an "ordinary" jedi and special mostly for how sneaky and clever he is. To give him unique powers that nobody else has is to cheapen the traits that were his real strengths, which was his strategic mind and his utter dedication to his cause.
QFE.

Quote:
Not that Revan didn't have his weaknesses. After all, he made the same mistake Ulic had made less than half a century before - he thought he could use the dark side of the Force without becoming a slave to it. Either that or he underestimated his own potential, since he turned into a dark lord far more dangerous than the evil he had sacrificed himself to destroy.
Is that so? I assumed he sacrificied himself to destroy the True Sith. We don't know how powerful (or how weak) they are, so maybe, in K3, we might have proof that Revan had to fell.

More importantly, Revan had a plan. Take over the Republic, and then create a new Sith Empire that would then be able to fight the True Sith. That, or as ED once said, just do a spring cleaning, killing off most Jedi, and then letting his new Sith Empire decay, so that a new Jedi Order would spring that would fight the True Sith. Prehaps, even as he is still a slave to the Dark Side, he was still able to pull the plan off.

Could Revan actually contorl himself, be able to be a master of the Dark Side and not a slave to it? I don't know. I think he was able to contorl the Dark Side, but his goals would make some LS Jedi squirm. I'm thinking of Goto as an example of what I think Revan became. A patriot willing to do anything to save the Republic, even if it means that all goodness in it must be die.

EDIT:
Quote:
Could you show some evidence that Nihilus' draining power works stronger on those powerful in the Force?
The Sith Assisans. According to Kreia, he compares "the sect of assisans", and what they do...is only the pinncale of Darth Nihlius can do.

Another thing:
Quote:
Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained completely.
Stronger the connection, the more tastier the morsel.
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Old 12-06-2006, 08:54 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Well, it looks like I don't have to argue why Revan wouldn't beat Nihilus, since others are doing that quite well. Regardless of whether Nihilus can kill force users by just standing there or not, Revan would still be weakened just getting near Nihilus, because look at those Sith on the Ravager bridge.

They were all half dead, all weakened. Assuming that Revan is more powerful than all those Sith, he/she would be weakened even more by just getting near Nihilus, possibly even killed.
And how can you say that he will be even more weakened and that too due to the reason that he is far more powerful then those average Sith on Ravager? Did Sion got so much weakened by just standing close to Nihilus that he was no longer capable enough to launch an attack on him? The point is that your logic is heavily flawed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
The only way Revan could win would be to attack from afar, but it would have to be from a fair distance, since as Emperor Devon said, Nihilus' attack works from long distances, since he wiped out a whole planet at once.
And I have already pointed out that how Revan can attack from a large distance. Also, Nihilus needs to know the position of an enemy to launch his Drain attack on that enemy in close encounters. Draining a planet is different from Draining an individual in a one-on-one situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Even then, the Sith in K2 operate on stealth and guile. Revan would have to be careful not to be detected by the Sith, and he/she would have to find them in the first place, but since these Sith are drawn to powerful Jedi, it would be hard, almost impossible for Revan to do.
If you are using "Ravager" as the fighting place then Nihilus does have advantage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Yes, Revan was above average in the KotOR era. But in the Star Wars timeline as a whole, Revan was just average. There are many Jedi and Sith who were greater and more powerful than Revan IMO.
And since when Revan have been compared to others in canonical sources in terms of power?

Also, Revan had accomplished far more then many other Sith Lords and only Sidious rivalled his accomplishments - 4000 years later. And their are only a few Jedi and Sith, who were more powerful then Revan. You surely need to open your eyes now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Just to name a few, Marka Ragnos, Yoda, Palpatine, Luke, Vader/Anakin, Exar Kun, Freedon Nadd, Tulak Hord, Mace Windu, Obi-Wan Kinobi and Darth Sidious are all more powerful than Revan.
Darth Sidious and Palpatine are same individuals.

And only Palpatine and Luke are more powerful then Revan in your list. The rest are close and thats it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Heck, I don't even think that Revan was the most powerful force user in the KotOR era. I think the Exile, Kreia, Sion and Nihilus were all more powerful than Revan.
Yeah! Revan was sleeping in the Star Forge actually and that entire army of Sith was killed by his (not so powerful) companions.

And since when did Exile, kreia and Sion became more powerful then Revan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Nihilus fails because the Exile is a wound in the force. Nihilus probably does have to do more than just stand there to win against an opponent, but look at those Sith on the Ravager bridge.
Those Sith were normal individuals and were his slaves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Yes, everyone is connected to the force. If the Exile didn't stop Nihilus, then all life would have been wiped out. You see, the galaxy is one big food platter for Nihilus. He was going for the big prizes, the main course first, which are the Jedi, since they have a stronger connection to the force than your average joe. He's drawn to those who are strong in the force.
Yeah! since GL does not gives much importance to EU so any amount of BS can be thrown in it.

Star Wars canon sources confirm Darth Sidious to be the most powerful Sith Lord and by your logic, Nihilus will WTF-Pawn him and shoud be crowned as the most powerful Sith Lord in Star Wars Saga.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
You're right. I shouldn't take it out on Revan, but it still won't change the fact that I don't like Revan that much and think he/she is overrated. There are plenty of characters that I like more than that idiot.
Nopes! Ragnos and Vader are most over-rated individuals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Also, I haven't seen any evidence of Revan's great military strategy. While Revan could very well have been a 'great military genius', I haven't seen any proof of it, so I can't say whether he/she was/wasn't a 'great military genius'.
Because you are blind to the truth and your personal bias against Revan clouds your judgement regarding him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Also, the Republic would have won the Mandalorian Wars, with or without Revan. If Revan didn't go to war, then Malak and the Exile would have led the charge.
Yeah! and thats why Mandalorians said that it was Revan who turned the tide in the war and they were badly defeated.

And Malak and Exile only followed Revan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
You have to remember that the Republic had many more troops, supplies, ships and the Jedi on their side, so it's not as if Revan didn't have any help and did everything himself/herself.
And they were getting pawned badly by Mandalorian forces in every battle until Revan arrived on the scene and led the Republic forces to victory.

Almost all of your arguements are flawed.

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Old 12-06-2006, 09:01 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
And I have already pointed out that how Revan can attack from a large distance. Also, Nihilus needs to know the position of an enemy to launch his Drain attack on that enemy in close encounters. Draining a planet is different from Draining an individual in a one-on-one situation.
In terms of casting it, probably not. I've already provided evidence against that argument.

Calling people blind to the truth and similar remarks aren't supposed to be said here, by the way.


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Old 12-06-2006, 09:04 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Is that so? I assumed he sacrificied himself to destroy the True Sith. We don't know how powerful (or how weak) they are, so maybe, in K3, we might have proof that Revan had to fell.
True, but Revan almost destroyed the Republic itself trying to prepare for the coming war against the true Sith. In his zeal to destroy the enemy, he forgot the very thing that he was trying to save - the Republic. Oh yes, the Republic would have survived physically, but only as Revan's personal empire or military dictatorship, not as the democracy it was. Though he might have saved the Republic on the surface, the way he did it was an attack on its very soul of freedom and liberty. And so he would have destroyed the very thing he was trying to protect. And like Anakin, he would have become the very thing he swore to destroy. If Revan's actions ends up saving the Republic in KotOR3, it will be ironic indeed, that Malak will have actually saved the Republic by his betrayal...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
More importantly, Revan had a plan. Take over the Republic, and then create a new Sith Empire that would then be able to fight the True Sith. That, or as ED once said, just do a spring cleaning, killing off most Jedi, and then letting his new Sith Empire decay, so that a new Jedi Order would spring that would fight the True Sith. Prehaps, even as he is still a slave to the Dark Side, he was still able to pull the plan off.
Yes, but as you say, that's a Sith empire, not the Republic Revan sacrificed himself to save.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Could Revan actually contorl himself, be able to be a master of the Dark Side and not a slave to it? I don't know. I think he was able to contorl the Dark Side, but his goals would make some LS Jedi squirm. I'm thinking of Goto as an example of what I think Revan became. A patriot willing to do anything to save the Republic, even if it means that all goodness in it must be die.
True, but the problem is that once you walk down that road, all your good intentions are twisted into something horrid. And we all know what the road to Hell is paved with... Revan was either too confident that he could use the dark side as a tool for his own purposes or else he did not think that he would become so great a threat to the Republic as he did. Not sure if he learned the lesson, but if he did, he did it the hard way - you can't make a deal with the devil without paying the price...


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Old 12-06-2006, 09:16 PM   #100
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In terms of casting it, probably not. I've already provided evidence against that argument.

Calling people blind to the truth and similar remarks aren't supposed to be said here, by the way.
He needs to know that where his enemy is positioned in his ship (in case of close encounters). It is not that he will launch his DRAIN attack and that power will itself discover the position of his enemy and kill him/her.

As an example, Sion was very close to Nihilus when he used his Drain power on him.

And I apologize, if I had been rude to anyone but some views expressed by The Architect in his above post are beyond the truth and very frustrating.
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Old 12-06-2006, 09:35 PM   #101
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A lot of people refers to Revan than Nihilus.

BTW, welcome to LF, Obsidianian S_W_LeGenD.




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Old 12-06-2006, 09:36 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
And how can you say that he will be even more weakened and that too due to the reason that he is far more powerful then those average Sith on Ravager? Did Sion got so much weakened by just standing close to Nihilus that he was no longer capable enough to launch an attack on him? The point is that your logic is heavily flawed.


And I have already pointed out that how Revan can attack from a large distance. Also, Nihilus needs to know the position of an enemy to launch his Drain attack on that enemy in close encounters. Draining a planet is different from Draining an individual in a one-on-one situation.


If you are using "Ravager" as the fighting place then Nihilus does have advantage.


And since when Revan have been compared to others in canonical sources in terms of power?

Also, Revan had accomplished far more then many other Sith Lords and only Sidious rivalled his accomplishments - 4000 years later. And their are only a few Jedi and Sith, who were more powerful then Revan. You surely need to open your eyes now.


Darth Sidious and Palpatine are same individuals.

And only Palpatine and Luke are more powerful then Revan in your list. The rest are close and thats it.


Yeah! Revan was sleeping in the Star Forge actually and that entire army of Sith was killed by his (not so powerful) companions.

And since when did Exile, kreia and Sion became more powerful then Revan?


Those Sith were normal individuals and were his slaves.


Yeah! since GL does not gives much importance to EU so any amount of BS can be thrown in it.

Star Wars canon sources confirm Darth Sidious to be the most powerful Sith Lord and by your logic, Nihilus will WTF-Pawn him and shoud be crowned as the most powerful Sith Lord in Star Wars Saga.


Nopes! Ragnos and Vader are most over-rated individuals.


Because you are blind to the truth and your personal bias against Revan clouds your judgement regarding him.


Yeah! and thats why Mandalorians said that it was Revan who turned the tide in the war and they were badly defeated.

And Malak and Exile only followed Revan.


And they were getting pawned badly by Mandalorian forces in every battle until Revan arrived on the scene and led the Republic forces to victory.

Almost all of your arguements are flawed.
Ok, I said you were wrong before, about Lightning and the Rancors and stuff, but you're pretty much absolutely correct right here. Thank you.

Quote:
But while I like Revan, I like him most because he is NOT some uber-force-god. Sure, Revan may have been the strongest force-user of his time, but I dare say he pales if compared to Yoda or any of the Skywalkers. He is strong in the force, but there are limits, and that's what I like about Revan - he's not just some half-clever guy soaked in uber-powers. He's far closer to an "ordinary" jedi and special mostly for how sneaky and clever he is. To give him unique powers that nobody else has is to cheapen the traits that were his real strengths, which was his strategic mind and his utter dedication to his cause.
Excellent thought right there. I think Revan is awesome, and there is no doubt that he was very powerful in the force, but he is not the most powerful jedi ever, he is not supernatural in his abilities. He is very clever.


About him defending the republic, and sacrificing himself, I believe that he was more concerned with saving the galaxy than he was the Republic. He sought to end destructive conflict, and the weakness of the Republic. He wanted one strong empire, capable of fighting the True Sith, and he thought that the Republic was not that empire. So he set out to gain control of the galaxy, so that he could defend it adequately. His objective was not to save or destroy the republic itself.


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Old 12-06-2006, 09:41 PM   #103
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I grow tired of this. I don't know what more I can say to get this across to you. Revan had no special Lightning ability called Force Lightning Storm. He cannot drain DS energies: he simply used the power of the Trayus Core. I quote Jediphile to prove that statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Kreia: "There is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface, drowns them in the power of the dark side - it corrupts all life. And it feeds on death. Revan knew the power of such places... and the power in making them. They can be used to break the will of others... of Jedi, promising them power, and turning them to the dark side.Did you never wonder how Revan corrupted so many of the Jedi, so much of the Republic, so quickly?The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion.Culminating a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from... save one."
Nihilus can use his power from either afar or near. He used it on the surface of Katarr to absorb all life from the Jedi, and he uses it from afar on the Ravager as he sucks life from other worlds across the galaxy. And we also see that he attempts to use his drain ability in the fight with the Exile, but since the Exile is dead to the Force, it doesn't work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Star Wars canon sources confirm Darth Sidious to be the most powerful Sith Lord and by your logic, Nihilus will WTF-Pawn him and shoud be crowned as the most powerful Sith Lord in Star Wars Saga.
Uh...actually, yea. He is an extremely powerful individual, and he could use the drain just as well on Sidious as he could Revan, Sion, or any other Jedi that he has killed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Because you are blind to the truth and your personal bias against Revan clouds your judgement regarding him.
He is not blind to the truth, and, imo, you are the one allowing your personal bias for Revan to cloud your judgment. The evidence is completely in my favor and those who agree with me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Also, the Republic would have won the Mandalorian Wars, with or without Revan. If Revan didn't go to war, then Malak and the Exile would have led the charge.
Actually, the Mandalorians were countering the Republic's every move. It was not until Revan came in that the Republic began to fight back.


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Old 12-06-2006, 10:10 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
And how can you say that he will be even more weakened and that too due to the reason that he is far more powerful then those average Sith on Ravager? Did Sion got so much weakened by just standing close to Nihilus that he was no longer capable enough to launch an attack on him? The point is that your logic is heavily flawed.
The Sion vs. Nihilus scene is cut content though, so it doesn't officially count.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
And I have already pointed out that how Revan can attack from a large distance. Also, Nihilus needs to know the position of an enemy to launch his Drain attack on that enemy in close encounters. Draining a planet is different from Draining an individual in a one-on-one situation.
Tell me, how could Revan resist Nihilus' drain power in a 'one-on-one' situation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
And since when Revan have been compared to others in canonical sources in terms of power?
What's your point? I never said that Revan has been compared to others in canonical sources in terms of power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Sidious and Palpatine are same individuals.
Yes I know. I forgot that I already had Palpatine on my list, when I included Darth Sidious. Besides, I never said they were the same person. It was just a mistake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
And only Palpatine and Luke are more powerful then Revan in your list. The rest are close and thats it.
How do you know that? Whether Revan was more powerful than any of those individuals depends entirely upon our own point of view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yeah! Revan was sleeping in the Star Forge actually and that entire army of Sith was killed by his (not so powerful) companions.
You do realise the difference between gameplay and the plot, right? As if Revan would have fought all those Sith on the Star Forge alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
And since when did Exile, kreia and Sion became more powerful then Revan?
Since when didn't they? Besides, I said that I think they are more powerful, not that they actually are. There's a difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nopes! Ragnos and Vader are most over-rated individuals.
Overrated how? As far as I can tell, Revan is the only character who the fan boys claim is a perfect, ultra cool mega genius force god who would beat anyone in combat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Because you are blind to the truth and your personal bias against Revan clouds your judgement regarding him.
Perhaps my personal bias against Revan clouds my judgement, but blind to the truth? Prove that Revan was a 'great military genius'. Good leader? Yes. Powerful force user? Yes. Great military genius? Perhaps, but tell me something strategically brilliant that Revan did in the Mandalorian Wars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yeah! and thats why Mandalorians said that it was Revan who turned the tide in the war and they were badly defeated.
So? That could just mean that Revan was powerful, not a military genius. If Malak won the Jedi Civil War, would that make him a military genius? Winning a war doesn't make you a military genius.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
And Malak and Exile only followed Revan.
Who's to say they still wouldn't have gone to war? Remember, Malak was just as keen as what Revan was to fight the Mandalorians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
And they were getting pawned badly by Mandalorian forces in every battle until Revan arrived on the scene and led the Republic forces to victory.
So? How does that make Revan a military genius?

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Almost all of your arguements are flawed.
Think whatever you like. If anybody's arguments are flawed around here, it's yours.


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Old 12-06-2006, 10:46 PM   #105
SilentScope001
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This thread is turning into a topic on Revan. Someone should make a seperate topic so we can talk about Revan, he's an intersting character...

Quote:
Great military genius? Perhaps, but tell me something strategically brilliant that Revan did in the Mandalorian Wars.
Simple. He sent a large batallion of Republic men (conviently filled with traitors and those who are disloyal to Revan) to Malachor V. This was a trap, and the Mandalorians took it.

They sent their armies to battle the Republic men. In the middle of the battle, Exile used the MSG and blew up the Mandlorains and the Republic army.

Ta-da! That was stragerically billirant. He got rid of two great foes: The Mandlorains, and the Jedi who would not submit to his rule (by converting or by killing them). He even neturalized The Exile, by making him feel pain and misery from the bonds and having him leave known space, so that he wouldn't cause any harm to Revan. He used the simple bait-and-switch tactic, and is willing to kill off all his men.

If that doesn't sound like a man of great stragery, well, that's the only detail we have of Revan's military prowess. Tells more about Revan's descend to the Dark Side than anything else.

Jediphile: That was my point that you have mentioned, and tried to tell others...that Revan, in fact, is evil. Revan wanted to save the galaxy but destroyed the Republic in the process. Like Goto, Revan saw the bigger picture, and did not concern himself with good or evil. At least, that is what I think. K3 is needed to learn more.

What I'd be interested in is why Revan would do all this to prevent the True Sith from taking over. Maybe the True Sith is worse than the loss of liberty that would happen thanks to Revan's Sith Empire. Another thing is why Revan wanted to perseve the Galaxy...sounds a bit strange. I doubt all the answers will be given, but it is these details that makes the game interesting.
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Old 12-07-2006, 01:42 AM   #106
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Well while I like Revan, I wouldn't even be tempted to think that Nihilus would be beaten by him... it would be possible for Revan to beat Nihilus, but it would take much planning and 'chess games' to do so, and even still would need to be from a 'safe' distance. Like with a Resonance Torpedo.

In a straight up fight Nihilus would dominate most all he faced, as his life draining power allows him to do so, only someone versed with this power could defend themselves from it.

Another note: Kreia was mistaken in claiming the power could not be taught, it actually is a learnable skill called Drain Life Energy (Nihilus' power was likely taken from the D6 RPG). And yes, you could indeed drain entire worlds with said power. Nihilus was an unusual example in that he had a 'hunger' attached to the power, but the power remains the same.

Edit: *Puts on mod hat* Let's keep the discussion civil folks. Mkay!


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Old 12-07-2006, 02:01 AM   #107
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I guess I have a habit of speaking with my heart rather than my head, if that makes sense. I do like Revan, mainly because of the reasons Jediphile said, plus the fact that I played as Revan.

I have been harsh on Revan. SilentScope001, I was already aware of what Revan did. I must say, it was an impressive tactic. I guess I can't deny that Revan was at least a 'good' strategist.

Still, I wouldn't say he/she was a 'genius' tactician, because although he/she may have been, the details of what Revan did in the Mandalorian Wars are vague.

Obsidian at least made an effort to discuss the things that Revan did, said and planned in the Mandalorian Wars, unlike BioWare. If you ask me, you can learn more about Revan in K2 than what you do in K1. So, I admit I was being too hard on Revan. I like Revan. I still like many more Star Wars characters more than Revan though.

Now, back on topic. At the end of the day, this discussion is pointless, as the outcome of a fight is whatever the author/s want it to be. However, the knowledge of K2 tells me that if Nihilus' can wipe out hundreds of Jedi on Katarr, then he can deal with one force user, powerful or not.

The only reason Nihilus lost to the Exile in the first place was because the Exile is a wound in the force. Sure, Nihilus was piss easy to beat in the game, but that doesn't mean he is weak and Revan would beat him. That's just a gameplay issue.


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Old 12-07-2006, 06:00 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
The Sion vs. Nihilus scene is cut content though, so it doesn't officially count.
Some people say that it is canon material.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Tell me, how could Revan resist Nihilus' drain power in a 'one-on-one' situation?
It depends that if Revan gets caught in Nihilus's Force Drain in a "one-on-one" scenario or not, because it is not like that Nihilus will always make the first move. And Revan's resistance to DS powers is very good because he absorbs DS power. When he landed on Malachor V, the DS energies in that planet were too dangerous to him but he survived by sheer force of his will and he fed on the DS Power to stay alive. Also, Malak knew Force Drain and many other DS Force moves but his powers failed on Revan and that is because Revan absorbs DS powers. The point is that Revan's resistance will be much better then expected and I also believe that Nihilus's Force Drain is a power to be feared.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
What's your point? I never said that Revan has been compared to others in canonical sources in terms of power.
But you were stating that many others are more powerful then Revan and this is canonically not confirmed and true. So your supposition is wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Yes I know. I forgot that I already had Palpatine on my list, when I included Darth Sidious. Besides, I never said they were the same person. It was just a mistake.
OK! I understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
How do you know that? Whether Revan was more powerful than any of those individuals depends entirely upon our own point of view.
From Darth Bane POD Novel: Darth Bane—recently proclaimed a Dark Lord himself—traveled to Lehon in search of power enough to topple the existing Sith regime, the Brotherhood of Darkness. Once there, he discovered Revan's holocron and from it received training and instruction that, in his opinion, surpassed the entirety of Korriban Academy's archives.

Revan's mastery in force was so great that it surpassed the entirety of Sith knowledge found in a Sith Planet called "Korriban" (and this planet was already rich with Sith secrets).

And the reason behind this is that Revan has explored the worlds of Malachor V and Korriban in quest for great knowledge in Ancient Sith Arts and he learned a huge number of Sith secrets from these worlds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
You do realise the difference between gameplay and the plot, right? As if Revan would have fought all those Sith on the Star Forge alone.
Canonically, Revan's companions followed him on Star Forge for not a long time as Revan faced Bastilla and Malak and their elite legions alone. And not all of his companions followed him as some had to stay in the ship to protect it from possible ambushes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Since when didn't they? Besides, I said that I think they are more powerful, not that they actually are. There's a difference.
They have never shown accomplishments that rival Revan's. Their is a concept that "the more powerful you are, the more you will accomplish".

Narration by Yuthura Ban (regarding Revan): "I hear he was a very powerful man. Very charismatic."

Take an example of Darth Sidious: he was also very powerful, charismatic and a brilliant strategist as well (like Darth Revan) and he accomplished a lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Overrated how? As far as I can tell, Revan is the only character who the fan boys claim is a perfect, ultra cool mega genius force god who would beat anyone in combat.
Not all think like this. And I never think like this but I believe that he is among the most powerful characters in Star Wars Saga and canonical sources have already provided us hints.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Perhaps my personal bias against Revan clouds my judgement, but blind to the truth? Prove that Revan was a 'great military genius'. Good leader? Yes. Powerful force user? Yes. Great military genius? Perhaps, but tell me something strategically brilliant that Revan did in the Mandalorian Wars.
Narration by Canderous Ordo (regarding Revan): "His strategies and tactics defeated the best of us. Even Mandalore himself was taken aback by the ferocity of his attacks, the tenacity of his defenses and and the subtlety of his plans."

Need I say more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
So? That could just mean that Revan was powerful, not a military genius. If Malak won the Jedi Civil War, would that make him a military genius? Winning a war doesn't make you a military genius.
Revan was very powerful and a military genius as well.

Another narration by Canderous Ordo: "You, Revan, are the single greatest warrior of this age, and any battle we fight will bring me honor."

And I have already mentioned his narration (regarding Revan), which makes it clear that Revan was a military genius.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Who's to say they still wouldn't have gone to war? Remember, Malak was just as keen as what Revan was to fight the Mandalorians.
It was Revan who inspired them to join him in the war and reject the decision of Jedi Council.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
So? How does that make Revan a military genius?
I have provided a hint above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Think whatever you like. If anybody's arguments are flawed around here, it's yours.
Not necessarily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSI: Nihilus
A lot of people refers to Revan than Nihilus.

BTW, welcome to LF, Obsidianian S_W_LeGenD.
Thanks for welcoming me!

Last edited by RedHawke; 12-07-2006 at 07:02 AM. Reason: Combining double post...
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Old 12-07-2006, 07:34 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
It depends that if Revan gets caught in Nihilus's Force Drain in a "one-on-one" scenario or not, because it is not like that Nihilus will always make the first move. And Revan's resistance to DS powers is very good because he absorbs DS power. When he landed on Malachor V, the DS energies in that planet were too dangerous to him but he survived by sheer force of his will and he fed on the DS Power to stay alive. Also, Malak knew Force Drain and many other DS Force moves but his powers failed on Revan and that is because Revan absorbs DS powers. The point is that Revan's resistance will be much better then expected and I also believe that Nihilus's Force Drain is a power to be feared.
I think you're reading an awful lot into that ability. Yes, Revan survived by absorbing ds powers, but how much of a feat is that, really? Revan was overcome by the dark side, when he went to Malachor V, yet in the end of TSL, the Exile and all his companions can go to Malachor V just fine, even though they were all LS, which is the canonical way of things. Lots of people seem to have gone to Malachor V without dying from it. It certainly seems Kreia did too, and though she was also overcome by the dark side, she didn't need to "absorb dark side powers" just to survive.

Besides, what does it mean to "absorb dark side powers" anyway? I remember doing that with some characters on Dxun, when we went to Freedon Nadd's tomb and found some dark side energies. If that is what Revan needed to do just to survive, then I don't think that's very impressive. Rather, I think it's a little pathetic. Besides, the dark side doesn't kill people - it corrupts them. And they certainly did that with Revan, if we assume that he was even trying to resist the dark side.

Finally, what Revan can do on Malachor V cannot be attributed to another place - Malachor is a pretty wierd place to begin with.

Kreia: "It corrupts all that walks on its surface, drowns them in the power of the dark side - it corrupts all life. And it feeds on death."

You can't say that about most places, which leaves us little basis for claiming that Revan absorbing dark side powers there means that he can do it anywhere else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
But you were stating that many others are more powerful then Revan and this is canonically not confirmed and true. So your supposition is wrong.
No, it's a supposition. For it to be wrong, it must be proven that Revan is more powerful, and we really don't know that either. You think so, and I tend to agree that Revan was probably one of the more potent force-users in his day, but we actually don't know that beyond speculation from Kreia, who is speaking about her favorite student and so is not exactly an objective source.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
From Darth Bane POD Novel: Darth Bane—recently proclaimed a Dark Lord himself—traveled to Lehon in search of power enough to topple the existing Sith regime, the Brotherhood of Darkness. Once there, he discovered Revan's holocron and from it received training and instruction that, in his opinion, surpassed the entirety of Korriban Academy's archives.
All that really says is that the knowledge Revan gained from the Trayus Academy was better than that of Korriban. That says more about the quality of what Revan learned at the Trayus Academy than it does about Revan himself. In fact, all it tells us about Revan is that he learned a lot there, which has never been in dispute anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan's mastery in force was so great that it surpassed the entirety of Sith knowledge found in a Sith Planet called "Korriban" (and this planet was already rich with Sith secrets).

And the reason behind this is that Revan has explored the worlds of Malachor V and Korriban in quest for great knowledge in Ancient Sith Arts and he learned a huge number of Sith secrets from these worlds.
Revan learned secrets that had long been lost to the Sith. Does that speak more to the abilities of Revan or the ancient Sith? All it tells me is that the ancient Sith were far more powerful, and that Revan gained power from trying to understand what arcane knowledge had not been lost to posterity. That doesn't exactly tell me that Revan was particularly powerful to begin with. Actually, it suggests just the opposite to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Narration by Canderous Ordo (regarding Revan): "His strategies and tactics defeated the best of us. Even Mandalore himself was taken aback by the ferocity of his attacks, the tenacity of his defenses and and the subtlety of his plans."
The obvious counter-argument to that is that Canderous has little choice but to say that about Revan, since Revan beat the Mandalorians into a pulp. And since the Mandalorians think of themselves as great warriors and strategists, they must consider the person who defeated them as an even greater warrior and strategist, because to do otherwise would require that they reconsider their own high opinion of themselves. And none of the Mandalorians demonstrate any such introspection or reevaluation during either game that I've noticed. Quite the contrary - they are all warmongering, arrogant pigs with a "might is right" attitude the lot of them!


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Old 12-07-2006, 09:53 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Jediphile
I think you're reading an awful lot into that ability. Yes, Revan survived by absorbing ds powers, but how much of a feat is that, really? Revan was overcome by the dark side, when he went to Malachor V, yet in the end of TSL, the Exile and all his companions can go to Malachor V just fine, even though they were all LS, which is the canonical way of things. Lots of people seem to have gone to Malachor V without dying from it. It certainly seems Kreia did too, and though she was also overcome by the dark side, she didn't need to "absorb dark side powers" just to survive.
Gameplay is not canon actually and thus you don't feel a damn thing when you enter Malachor V. But since Exile was a wound in the force, so she was also possibly less sensitive to exposure to DS energies.

And Kriea too got corrupted by the influence of the Dark Side power in Malachor V, despite her great wisdom and she was not the true servant of the Light and thus was less sensitive to exposure to DS power. She actually believed in Gray philosophies.

Here is more information: Her crusade ended on the dark world of Malachor V. As she descended to the lowest levels of the world, the extreme caress of dark side energies encompassed the frail Gray Jedi. From the descent of Jedi Master Kreia into the abyss arose Darth Traya, Dark Lord of Betrayal.

So Malachor's influence was enough to turn her in to a Sith Lord.

And Revan was much more sensitive to DS power then Kriea and Exile, because he was a true servant of the Light and was very strong in the force and probably due to some more unknown reasons. Even the Mandalorians were very sensitive to such DS energies and thats why they avoided capturing the Malachor V planet.

So their is no hard and fast rule that how sensitive an individual can be to DS energies in that planet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Besides, what does it mean to "absorb dark side powers" anyway? I remember doing that with some characters on Dxun, when we went to Freedon Nadd's tomb and found some dark side energies. If that is what Revan needed to do just to survive, then I don't think that's very impressive. Rather, I think it's a little pathetic. Besides, the dark side doesn't kill people - it corrupts them. And they certainly did that with Revan, if we assume that he was even trying to resist the dark side.
Revan was a true servant of the Light and when he landed on a world fueled by Dark Side power, he was over-whelmed by the Dark Side energies and resisted his doom only through his strong will. So he saved himself by "feeding on" or absorbing those DS energies that posed a threat to him. But he eventually got corrupted by them as well, since Dark Side power corrupts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Finally, what Revan can do on Malachor V cannot be attributed to another place - Malachor is a pretty wierd place to begin with.

Kreia: "It corrupts all that walks on its surface, drowns them in the power of the dark side - it corrupts all life. And it feeds on death."
And this shows that Malachor is a place that can influence anyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
You can't say that about most places, which leaves us little basis for claiming that Revan absorbing dark side powers there means that he can do it anywhere else.
But how he manages to defend against Malak's DS power based attacks, who was a powerful DS force user as well, and despite the truth that Malak's powers were further enhanced by Star Forge? The only logical answer is that he naturally became resistant to DS related power attacks, after his exposure to DS energies in Malachor V. And this means that he could absorb DS powers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
No, it's a supposition. For it to be wrong, it must be proven that Revan is more powerful, and we really don't know that either. You think so, and I tend to agree that Revan was probably one of the more potent force-users in his day, but we actually don't know that beyond speculation from Kreia, who is speaking about her favorite student and so is not exactly an objective source.
Canonical sources have given us sufficient hints about Revan's power, so his great power should not be questioned. And the accomplishments of a person, clearly speak about the power of that individual as well.

And Kreia was pretty much accurate in describing the characters she knew, so her point stands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
All that really says is that the knowledge Revan gained from the Trayus Academy was better than that of Korriban. That says more about the quality of what Revan learned at the Trayus Academy than it does about Revan himself. In fact, all it tells us about Revan is that he learned a lot there, which has never been in dispute anyway.
I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Revan learned secrets that had long been lost to the Sith. Does that speak more to the abilities of Revan or the ancient Sith? All it tells me is that the ancient Sith were far more powerful, and that Revan gained power from trying to understand what arcane knowledge had not been lost to posterity. That doesn't exactly tell me that Revan was particularly powerful to begin with. Actually, it suggests just the opposite to me.
When you learn some secrets, then you can use them as well. And it was only a speculation that ancient sith were far more powerful. Because when Revan met the spirit of "Ajunta Pall" (who is also among the most powerful ancient Sith Lords), he told Ajunta Pall clearly that Sith of his age are far more powerful then before. And this explains a lot as Revan knew what he was saying because he had already studied about Ancient Sith in great details.

And Revan was already a powerful Jedi Warrior and considered a hero, before he visited Malachor V.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
The obvious counter-argument to that is that Canderous has little choice but to say that about Revan, since Revan beat the Mandalorians into a pulp. And since the Mandalorians think of themselves as great warriors and strategists, they must consider the person who defeated them as an even greater warrior and strategist, because to do otherwise would require that they reconsider their own high opinion of themselves. And none of the Mandalorians demonstrate any such introspection or reevaluation during either game that I've noticed. Quite the contrary - they are all warmongering, arrogant pigs with a "might is right" attitude the lot of them!
You make it sound like that Revan was holding a Gun on Canderous head, when Canderous said these words. Dude! Canderous never feared anyone and he was always looking for real challenges and he admired Revan a lot because Revan's achievements were clear to him.

He did not said those lines out of fear of being killed. So your assumption is lame.

Last edited by S_W_LeGenD; 12-07-2006 at 12:21 PM.
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Old 12-07-2006, 01:47 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Gameplay is not canon actually and thus you don't feel a damn thing when you enter Malachor V. But since Exile was a wound in the force, so she was also possibly less sensitive to exposure to DS energies.
For the Exile, yes, but not the Exile's companions. Now, I know that you're going to argue that those scenes were cut and so not canon, but not all of them - the Mira vs. Hanharr fight is still in there, and Mira shows no sign of corruption by the dark side. None.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
So Malachor's influence was enough to turn her in to a Sith Lord.
Have I claimed otherwise? This is the first I hear of it... Why doesn't anyone ever tell me these things?

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
And Revan was much more sensitive to DS power then Kriea and Exile, because he was a true servant of the Light and was very strong in the force and probably due to some more unknown reasons.
In this case "sensitive" could be interpreted as "weak". As for how much of a servant to the light Revan was at this point, I think that is highly debatable. Certainly the jedi masters would not agree with you - they had already cast Revan out of the order for his defiance at this point. Scarcely an indication of his lofty status with the light, to be sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Even the Mandalorians were very sensitive to such DS energies and thats why they avoided capturing the Malachor V planet.
Avoided capturing?!? It's sacred ground to them! I think that might have something to do with it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
So their is no hard and fast rule that how sensitive an individual can be to DS energies in that planet.
If that is the case, then how can you conclude the following...

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan was a true servant of the Light and when he landed on a world fueled by Dark Side power, he was over-whelmed by the Dark Side energies and resisted his doom only through his strong will. So he saved himself by "feeding on" or absorbing those DS energies that posed a threat to him. But he eventually got corrupted by them as well, since Dark Side power corrupts.
If there are no hard and fast rules about how Malachor V affects people, then I don't understand how you can conclude that Revan survived Malachor only by his strong will and his great power in the Force.

And why would Malachor V be lethal to him? Kreia says nothing about that in her quote. On the contrary, she says that it corrupts irresistably, which is how the dark side works. True, Kreia says that it feeds on death, but that's not the same as killing someone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
But how he manages to defend against Malak's DS power based attacks, who was a powerful DS force user as well, and despite the truth that Malak's powers were further enhanced by Star Forge? The only logical answer is that he naturally became resistant to DS related power attacks, after his exposure to DS energies in Malachor V. And this means that he could absorb DS powers.
That's pure game mechanics. There is no basis for claiming that Revan has unique powers on that ground that I can see - you could put Jolee, Juhani, or Bastila in there, and it would have been just the same, depending on how you built them as they progressed through the levels. And Revan doesn't always resist. I've bit the dust in that fight, when I didn't get Force Resistance/Immunity up fast enough and failed a save against Malak's paralyzing attacks. There is nothing special about Revan there that I have experienced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Canonical sources have given us sufficient hints about Revan's power, so his great power should not be questioned. And the accomplishments of a person, clearly speak about the power of that individual as well.
I don't see that Revan had any particular powers. Sure, he was strong in the Force, but that doesn't give him any special abilities as such. Revan was great because he was not merely strong in the Force but also smart, resourceful, and determined. Not because the author poured uber-powers all over him. In that case I would hate Revan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
When you learn some secrets, then you can use them as well. And it was only a speculation that ancient sith were far more powerful. Because when Revan met the spirit of "Ajunta Pall" (who is also among the most powerful ancient Sith Lords), he told Ajunta Pall clearly that Sith of his age are far more powerful then before. And this explains a lot as Revan knew what he was saying because he had already studied about Ancient Sith in great details.
Actually, I don't get that impression at all from Ajunta Pall. He speaks of how "we" turned from our masters, suggesting that he was one of the original dark jedi cast out of the jedi order after the Hundred Years War. In short, he was the losing side that was kicked out by the Jedi. That doesn't exactly put him among the greatest great lords of the Sith Empire, such as Ragnos or Sadow and Kressh, who could probably have conquered the Republic, if only they didn't quarrel so much amongst themselves. Besides, any Sith would call Pall a pathetic weakling and disgrace to the Sith for turning back to the light at Revan's suggestion. Even Kreia says as much in TSL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
You make it sound like that Revan was holding a Gun on Canderous head, when Canderous said these words. Dude! Canderous never feared anyone and he was always looking for real challenges and he admired Revan a lot because Revan's achievements were clear to him.

He did not said those lines out of fear of being killed. So your assumption is lame.
Nonsense. Please reread. What I say is that the high opinion the Mandalorians have of themselves prevents them from seeing things any other way. That's not Revan's responsibility in any event, nor does it say that the Mandalorians are afraid of anything. It just says that they are so arrogant and full of themselves that this is the only way they can perceive Revan. How you get that to be Revan threatening Canderous or Canderous being afraid is completely beyond me.


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Old 12-07-2006, 02:15 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan was a true servant of the Light and when he landed on a world fueled by Dark Side power, he was over-whelmed by the Dark Side energies and resisted his doom only through his strong will. So he saved himself by "feeding on" or absorbing those DS energies that posed a threat to him. But he eventually got corrupted by them as well, since Dark Side power corrupts.
Listen this time. The mere essence of the Dark Side does not kill. It corrupts, which is exactly what happened to Revan. That fact would actually prove that he is not as strong as you claim, because if he could resist DS energies, then why couldn't he resist being corrupted? Revan's life was never endangered: only his spirit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
But how he manages to defend against Malak's DS power based attacks, who was a powerful DS force user as well, and despite the truth that Malak's powers were further enhanced by Star Forge? The only logical answer is that he naturally became resistant to DS related power attacks, after his exposure to DS energies in Malachor V. And this means that he could absorb DS powers.
Ok, when, besides in the game, does Revan resist Malak's DS Force attacks. Now you yourself said that "gameplay mechanics" don't apply to this. So please explain to me how this applies to how powerful Revan is, and other "gameplay mechanics" don't. Revan is not any more "resistant" to DS related powers than any other powerful Force user of that day, and he certainly cannot absorb DS powers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
From Darth Bane POD Novel: Darth Bane—recently proclaimed a Dark Lord himself—traveled to Lehon in search of power enough to topple the existing Sith regime, the Brotherhood of Darkness. Once there, he discovered Revan's holocron and from it received training and instruction that, in his opinion, surpassed the entirety of Korriban Academy's archives.
Revan learned many things from the Trayus Academy on Malachor V. As others before me have said, all that means is that the teachings of the Trayus Academy surpass the teachings of the Sith Academy on Korriban. Also, if you didn't notice, that says "in his opinion." Since when is Darth Bane's opinion a canonical source?

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
When you learn some secrets, then you can use them as well. And it was only a speculation that ancient sith were far more powerful. Because when Revan met the spirit of "Ajunta Pall" (who is also among the most powerful ancient Sith Lords), he told Ajunta Pall clearly that Sith of his age are far more powerful then before. And this explains a lot as Revan knew what he was saying because he had already studied about Ancient Sith in great details.
Uh...provide me with some material that says Revan said the Sith of his age were far more powerful than before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
You make it sound like that Revan was holding a Gun on Canderous head, when Canderous said these words. Dude! Canderous never feared anyone and he was always looking for real challenges and he admired Revan a lot because Revan's achievements were clear to him.

He did not said those lines out of fear of being killed. So your assumption is lame.
Did you actually read what he said? Canderous wasn't protecting his life because Revan was holding a gun to his head. He was protecting the honor of the Mandalorians. They always talk about how great and powerful they are, and yet they were defeated. To say anything less than Revan was an incredible genius would put a bad name on them. If they said he was weak, then that would obviously prove that they weren't quite as powerful as they claim.


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Old 12-07-2006, 07:37 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Some people say that it is canon material.
Like who? So what anyway? It hasn't been confirmed as canon as far as I can tell. Prove that it has been.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
But you were stating that many others are more powerful then Revan and this is canonically not confirmed and true. So your supposition is wrong.
What Jediphile said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
From Darth Bane POD Novel: Darth Bane—recently proclaimed a Dark Lord himself—traveled to Lehon in search of power enough to topple the existing Sith regime, the Brotherhood of Darkness. Once there, he discovered Revan's holocron and from it received training and instruction that, in his opinion, surpassed the entirety of Korriban Academy's archives.

Revan's mastery in force was so great that it surpassed the entirety of Sith knowledge found in a Sith Planet called "Korriban" (and this planet was already rich with Sith secrets).

And the reason behind this is that Revan has explored the worlds of Malachor V and Korriban in quest for great knowledge in Ancient Sith Arts and he learned a huge number of Sith secrets from these worlds.
You do realise how much of a Revan fan boy you sound like when you say crap like 'Revan's mastery of the force was so great' right? I agree with Jediphile. All this tells suggests is that the ancient Sith were more powerful than Revan, so your proof is somewhat self defeating. EagerWeasel makes a good point too. Since when did Darth Bane's opinion become a canonical source?

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Canonically, Revan's companions followed him on Star Forge for not a long time as Revan faced Bastilla and Malak and their elite legions alone. And not all of his companions followed him as some had to stay in the ship to protect it from possible ambushes.
Did they? This is the first I've heard of it. Care to prove it? Besides, Revan's companions did follow him/her on the Star Forge for a while, up until the fight with Bastila or the three Dark Jedi Masters. You have to remember from that point onwards, their were no more Sith to fight, apart from Malak.

Also, you need to distinguish the difference between gameplay mechanics and the plot. The gameplay mechanics in K1 and K2 only allowed you to take two companions at the maximum.

Storywise, all of Revan's companions would of fought with him/her on the Star Forge, since none of them had any reason to stay on the Ebon Hawk, because half a dozen Jedi Knights were there to protect the ships so the Sith didn't cut off their escape route.

Do you seriously think that three people would have fought the entire Sith army that was present on the Star Forge? You're looking at things from a gameplay perspective. Storywise, Revan and his/her companions would have had many Jedi Knights and Republic troops helping them fight the Sith on the Star Forge. Logic would tell you that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
They have never shown accomplishments that rival Revan's. Their is a concept that "the more powerful you are, the more you will accomplish".
Have you played K2? If you did, you'd realise that Sion, Kreia, the Exile and Darth Nihilus all possessed unique abilities that rivaled Revan's. Their is a concept in Star Wars that if you are more powerful than your opponent, then you will defeat them in an open, 'one on one' battle.

You don't think that the Exile, Kreia, Nihilus and Sion could beat Revan in a one on one fight? I certainly think they could. In fact, I think they all would defeat Revan in combat, but that's just my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Narration by Yuthura Ban (regarding Revan): "I hear he was a very powerful man. Very charismatic."
I'm not saying that Revan wasn't powerful. In his/her timeline, Revan was powerful, but 'looking at the big picture' which means in the entire Star Wars timeline, I don't see why Revan would be considered as one of the most powerful Jedi/Sith ever. No way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Take an example of Darth Sidious: he was also very powerful, charismatic and a brilliant strategist as well (like Darth Revan) and he accomplished a lot.
Darth Sidious was canonically the most powerful Sith Lord of all time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Not all think like this. And I never think like this but I believe that he is among the most powerful characters in Star Wars Saga and canonical sources have already provided us hints.
Well fair enough, that's your opinion, you're entitled to it. I don't think that Revan is among the most powerful characters in the entire Star Wars franchise, but you do. Meh, as Jediphile said, why should we have to agree all the time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Narration by Canderous Ordo (regarding Revan): "His strategies and tactics defeated the best of us. Even Mandalore himself was taken aback by the ferocity of his attacks, the tenacity of his defenses and and the subtlety of his plans."

Need I say more?
Yes, you do actually. How does this prove that Revan was a brilliant strategist and a military genius? This is just a biast opinion of one man. As Jediphile and EagerWeasel have pointed out, of course Canderous is going to speak highly of Revan. Duh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan was very powerful and a military genius as well.
Apart from Revan's 'cleaning house' tactic, tell me what else Revan did that was fascinating? I'm not saying he/she isn't a brilliant strategist and I understand why people would assume that he/she was, I'm just pointing out that I haven't seen any proof of his/her 'genius' tactics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Another narration by Canderous Ordo: "You, Revan, are the single greatest warrior of this age, and any battle we fight will bring me honor."

And I have already mentioned his narration (regarding Revan), which makes it clear that Revan was a military genius.
There's no way in hell that you've made it clear that Revan was a military genius. This is a weak argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
It was Revan who inspired them to join him in the war and reject the decision of Jedi Council.
It was Revan and Malak who inspired the renegade Jedi to join them in the war and reject the decision of Jedi Council.


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Old 12-07-2006, 11:48 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Jediphile
For the Exile, yes, but not the Exile's companions. Now, I know that you're going to argue that those scenes were cut and so not canon, but not all of them - the Mira vs. Hanharr fight is still in there, and Mira shows no sign of corruption by the dark side. None.
Then blame Obsidian for that and not me. Because we already have got various indications that Malachor V corrupts those who dare walk on its surface.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Have I claimed otherwise? This is the first I hear of it... Why doesn't anyone ever tell me these things?
We already have indications that Malachor V can corrupt any individual. So if Obsidian have shown otherwise then it is their fault for such contradictions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
In this case "sensitive" could be interpreted as "weak". As for how much of a servant to the light Revan was at this point, I think that is highly debatable. Certainly the jedi masters would not agree with you - they had already cast Revan out of the order for his defiance at this point. Scarcely an indication of his lofty status with the light, to be sure.
I did not made that information by myself and being sensitive does not translates in to word "weak" because he was not weak. And being cast out of Jedi Order does not makes any individual Evil by default. He was fighting to save The Republic from its doom, so it was a noble act.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Avoided capturing?!? It's sacred ground to them! I think that might have something to do with it...
Sacred ground to them how? Did they worshipped the ancients?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
If that is the case, then how can you conclude the following...
It depends that how sensitive an individual is to such an exposure. Details in games can often contradict with details provided by other sources. And if that information is from a higher canon source then it is more accurate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
If there are no hard and fast rules about how Malachor V affects people, then I don't understand how you can conclude that Revan survived Malachor only by his strong will and his great power in the Force.
He would be more sensitive to such an exposure and I also mentioned the line "due to unknown reasons". And his body started feeding on those DS energies present in Malachor V, so it would have something to do with his great power in the Force. And why don't you read those lines properly and explain to me that what it actually mean't?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
And why would Malachor V be lethal to him? Kreia says nothing about that in her quote. On the contrary, she says that it corrupts irresistably, which is how the dark side works. True, Kreia says that it feeds on death, but that's not the same as killing someone.
Reasons are unknown but he survived by giving in to the Dark Side and feeding on those DS energies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
That's pure game mechanics. There is no basis for claiming that Revan has unique powers on that ground that I can see - you could put Jolee, Juhani, or Bastila in there, and it would have been just the same, depending on how you built them as they progressed through the levels. And Revan doesn't always resist. I've bit the dust in that fight, when I didn't get Force Resistance/Immunity up fast enough and failed a save against Malak's paralyzing attacks. There is nothing special about Revan there that I have experienced.
I have never used any "Game Mechanics" in my argument, since I never used the word "Force Immunity". The only known canon defenses are "Force Deflect" and "Absorb Capability". Revan would have known one of these or probably both to survive such an encounter. Because you can't fight and defeat a powerful Sith Lord unless you can defend against his Force attacks, which that Sith Lord will use on you in any case.

And Jolee Bindo and Juhani have never faced Malak and we don't know that canonically what defensive abilities they have, so your assumption regarding them are wrong and actually based on "Game Mechanics".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
I don't see that Revan had any particular powers. Sure, he was strong in the Force, but that doesn't give him any special abilities as such. Revan was great because he was not merely strong in the Force but also smart, resourceful, and determined. Not because the author poured uber-powers all over him. In that case I would hate Revan.
Revan's powers are not fully known yet but we know that he was a powerful force user and some of his powers are already known;

- Force Lightning (Any powerful Sith Lord knows this)
- Force Lightning Storm (Demonstrated in Lehon)
- Mind Domination (Power to convince many)
- Thought Bomb (Taught to Bane)
- Telekinetic Abilities (Demonstrated in Lehon)
- Drain Knowledge (A person who learned a lot from Malachor V will know this as well)

Then he trained Malak in Sith Arts as well, so Force Moves shown by Malak were also known to him. Also he knew some Defensive moves as well.

So, you can't say that his abilities are fully unknown, if you pay some attention to his achievements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Actually, I don't get that impression at all from Ajunta Pall. He speaks of how "we" turned from our masters, suggesting that he was one of the original dark jedi cast out of the jedi order after the Hundred Years War. In short, he was the losing side that was kicked out by the Jedi. That doesn't exactly put him among the greatest great lords of the Sith Empire, such as Ragnos or Sadow and Kressh, who could probably have conquered the Republic, if only they didn't quarrel so much amongst themselves. Besides, any Sith would call Pall a pathetic weakling and disgrace to the Sith for turning back to the light at Revan's suggestion. Even Kreia says as much in TSL.
He said that he turned to Dark Side and he actually killed his master and thats why he left the Jedi Order because their was no valid reason for him to stay with the Jedi. Also, Ajunta Pall was one of the founding leaders of the old Sith during the time of the Old Sith Empire centered on Korriban, shortly after the "Hundred-Year Darkness". And he was among the most famous Ancient Sith Lords, as his Tomb was present their in Korriban as a sign of respect.

But after his death, his spirit remained to haunt his Tomb for many centuries and he started having doubts about Sith Philosophies. And Revan convinced him to turn to Light as their was no glory in the Dark. And after Ajunta's spirit turned to Light, it finally rested in peace and no longer haunted his tomb.

So kreia mis-judged this event.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Nonsense. Please reread. What I say is that the high opinion the Mandalorians have of themselves prevents them from seeing things any other way. That's not Revan's responsibility in any event, nor does it say that the Mandalorians are afraid of anything. It just says that they are so arrogant and full of themselves that this is the only way they can perceive Revan. How you get that to be Revan threatening Canderous or Canderous being afraid is completely beyond me.
Your arguement over Canderous's remarks on Revan is entirely baseless. Because what else would you expect from him to say about Revan? Of-course he will say high about Revan because Revan defeated the Mandalorian forces and ended their threat to the Republic for once and all. But Canderous also said that Revan gave the mandalorians an exceptional challenge that they desired for so many years and thats why he respected Revan so much. And Canderous also clearly said that it did not matters to him that his forces were defeated in the war with The Republic, but he appreciated the challenge given to his forces by Revan because it was he who turned the tide in that war.

Now he won't say the samething to any other person or would he?

Last edited by S_W_LeGenD; 12-08-2006 at 07:53 AM.
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Old 12-08-2006, 07:13 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
Listen this time. The mere essence of the Dark Side does not kill. It corrupts, which is exactly what happened to Revan. That fact would actually prove that he is not as strong as you claim, because if he could resist DS energies, then why couldn't he resist being corrupted? Revan's life was never endangered: only his spirit.
OK! you have a point here but remember that power of a Jedi has nothing to do with corruption. Kreia despite having great wisdom and knowledge also got corrupted by DS energies in Malachor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
Ok, when, besides in the game, does Revan resist Malak's DS Force attacks. Now you yourself said that "gameplay mechanics" don't apply to this. So please explain to me how this applies to how powerful Revan is, and other "gameplay mechanics" don't. Revan is not any more "resistant" to DS related powers than any other powerful Force user of that day, and he certainly cannot absorb DS powers.
You are trying to tell me that Revan survived in that battle without having defensive abilities to block Force attacks by Malak? Remember that if you can't defend against Force attacks of your adversary who will use them on you then you will never win. Yoda could absorb and counter Force attacks by Sidious and thats why he survived in his fight against Sidious.

And information in the provided Link indicates that Revan's body started feeding on DS energies in Malachor and this shows that he could absorb DS powers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
Revan learned many things from the Trayus Academy on Malachor V. As others before me have said, all that means is that the teachings of the Trayus Academy surpass the teachings of the Sith Academy on Korriban. Also, if you didn't notice, that says "in his opinion." Since when is Darth Bane's opinion a canonical source?
Darth Bane's opinion is mentioned in POD Novel and it becomes canon by default. And Bane had no valid reason to lie because Revan's teachings impressed him. And Revan also taught Bane the deadly ritual of "Thought Bomb", which proved to be very useful to Bane.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
Uh...provide me with some material that says Revan said the Sith of his age were far more powerful than before?
When Revan met Ajunta Pall (who is also a powerful and famous ancient Sith Lord), Ajunta asked Revan about the conditions of Sith in his age and Revan told him that Sith of his age are far more powerful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
Did you actually read what he said? Canderous wasn't protecting his life because Revan was holding a gun to his head. He was protecting the honor of the Mandalorians. They always talk about how great and powerful they are, and yet they were defeated. To say anything less than Revan was an incredible genius would put a bad name on them. If they said he was weak, then that would obviously prove that they weren't quite as powerful as they claim.
He was actually praising Revan and he even said that defeat of Mandalorians did not concerned him. And Canderous clearly mentioned that he praised Revan so much because Revan gave Mandalorians an exceptional challenge they desired for so many years.

And Revan was not weak because a weak person would never be able to defeat the powerful leader of Mandalorians who was "Mandalore - The Ultimate" in a single combat. So Canderous had no valid reason to say that Revan was weak.

Last edited by S_W_LeGenD; 12-08-2006 at 07:27 AM.
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Old 12-08-2006, 11:20 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
For everyone's future reference, there is evidence that Nihilus can kill people with his all-powerful drain before they react. Unseen, Unheard confirms that he went to the surface of Katarr to consume the Jedi there, and despite going against a whole conclave of Masters (obviously more than a match for Revan), he was clearly able to kill them.

No credence to Nihilus' power being slow, there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JawaJoey
Emperor Devon brings up good evidence that Nihilus' power is effective in sudden combat. That's the kind of the stuff that helps answer the relevant questions about Nihilus' power, rather than complaints that Revan sucks and claims that Nihilus is a god.
I saw the picture that Devon posted in Wookiepedia.

It's captioned: Darth Nihilus encounters Visas Marr as he walks the devastated surface of Katarr. But that only shows Nihilus on the planet AFTER the massacre, or during, we can't conclude. Nowhere in the passage mentions Nihilus actually was on the planet when he struck, nor does anywhere suggest that he actually was being attacked when he struck- he could have exerted his ability while hidden somewhere on the planet, and after that walked out and encountered Visas. The picture did not prove anything that's material to our discussion at all.

I looked further into the article, then I got to the page titled "Devestation of Katarr":

"My people never saw his face when he struck — but they heard his voice. When my lord spoke, every living thing on Katarr died. The destruction of Katarr echoed through the Force, the screaming of countless lives."
—Visas Marr

You may want to think what this might suggest. "Never saw his face when he struck"- could mean that Nihilus was actually not there, at least not under the attack of the jedi masters.

That way, we can't really be sure as whether Nihilus can maneouvre his ability as usual when he's under attack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
But while I like Revan, I like him most because he is NOT some uber-force-god. Sure, Revan may have been the strongest force-user of his time, but I dare say he pales if compared to Yoda or any of the Skywalkers. He is strong in the force, but there are limits, and that's what I like about Revan - he's not just some half-clever guy soaked in uber-powers. He's far closer to an "ordinary" jedi and special mostly for how sneaky and clever he is. To give him unique powers that nobody else has is to cheapen the traits that were his real strengths, which was his strategic mind and his utter dedication to his cause.

Not that Revan didn't have his weaknesses. After all, he made the same mistake Ulic had made less than half a century before - he thought he could use the dark side of the Force without becoming a slave to it. Either that or he underestimated his own potential, since he turned into a dark lord far more dangerous than the evil he had sacrificed himself to destroy. Either way, Revan erred greatly. But in doing so it also humanizes him. He may be powerful, but he's not above making mistakes. I like that.
QFE. And Architect said Revan was stupid. I wonder what makes you hold that opinion? I hope it's not only because Revan's overrated by some fanboys out there.

Last edited by Evln; 12-08-2006 at 12:54 PM.
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Old 12-08-2006, 12:01 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan's powers are not fully known yet but we know that he was a powerful force user and some of his powers are already known;

- Force Lightning (Any powerful Sith Lord knows this)
- Force Lightning Storm (Demonstrated in Lehon)
- Mind Domination (Power to convince many)
- Thought Bomb (Taught to Bane)
- Telekinetic Abilities (Demonstrated in Lehon)
- Drain Knowledge (A person who learned a lot from Malachor V will know this as well)
I know he had Force Lightning. There is no power called Force Lightning Storm. Do you not understand? The One exaggerated greatly, he had never seen the Force in action before. I'm gunna use an example provided by
someone before me. Say I went back in time about 2,000 years and I take a flamethrower with me. The people see it in action and they think I have some kind special gift where I can take a canon and create fire to shoot out of it. Obviously we know that's not true, since that's impossible. The One greatly exaggerated.

Show me somewhere that canon material says he has something called Mind Domination. And don't tell me that you think the fact of how many Jedi he recruited for the war explains that.

I've never read the Bane book and don't know what a thought bomb is so...yea.

What Telekinetic abilities did he show there? Another thing I'd like to see some material for.

So anyone who learns a lot from somewhere has Drain Knowledge? That would mean that nearly all Jedi have Drain Knowledge. Nearly all Sith have Drain Knowledge. Nearly all people who take a creative arts class have Drain Knowledge. Need I go on?
Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Your arguement over Canderous's remarks on Revan is entirely baseless. Because what else would you expect from him to say about Revan? Of-course he will say high about Revan because Revan defeated the Mandalorian forces and ended their threat to the Republic for once and all. But Canderous also said that Revan gave the mandalorians an exceptional challenge that they desired for so many years and thats why he respected Revan so much. And Canderous also clearly said that it did not matters to him that his forces were defeated in the war with The Republic, but he appreciated the challenge given to his forces by Revan because it was he who turned the tide in that war.
Well you just stated my point exactly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
OK! you have a point here but remember that power of a Jedi has nothing to do with corruption. Kreia despite having great wisdom and knowledge also got corrupted by DS energies in Malachor.
Uh...show me in there where I said the power of the Jedi had anything to do with corruption. You obviously didn't actually take the time to try to understand it. We all know that DS energies corrupt. DS energies do not kill. Revan's life was never in danger. Just because he gave in to the DS does not mean he was doing it to protect his life. He did it because he had no choice. As Kreia says, "It corrupts all life that walks upon it's surface." She did not say, it kills all life that walks upon it's surface that does not give in to the DS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are trying to tell me that Revan survived in that battle without having defensive abilities to block Force attacks by Malak? Remember that if you can't defend against Force attacks of your adversary who will use them on you then you will never win. Yoda could absorb and counter Force attacks by Sidious and thats why he survived in his fight against Sidious.

And information in the provided Link indicates that Revan's body started feeding on DS energies in Malachor and this shows that he could absorb DS powers.
Of course he had some knowledghe of defensive abilities, but that certainly does not mean he could absorb DS powers. And your point about how his sheer will saved him from death on Malachor is invalid. All Sith can feed on the power of the DS. How do you think they have any DS abilities at all. In the temple on Dxun, you can "feed" on the DS energies there, and don't tell me that's game mechanics because it's not. There is a difference between game mechanics and the story line.

And about Kreia. She was corrupted on the surface of Malachor, but was her life ever in any danger? No, nor was anyone else's. She was simply corrupted by the DS, she never "absorbed" any DS energies, she simply gave in- just as Revan did. And provide me with a source for your statment about how the more lightsided a person is, the more vulnerable they are to DS energies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Bane's opinion is mentioned in POD Novel and it becomes canon by default. And Bane had no valid reason to lie because Revan's teachings impressed him. And Revan also taught Bane the deadly ritual of "Thought Bomb", which proved to be very useful to Bane.
I don't care what novel it was in: it's still Darth Bane's opinion. And who said Bane lied? It was his opinion that what Revan taught him surpassed the teachings of the Sith Academy on Korriban. Just because I disagree does not mean either one of us has lied, it just means that I disagree. And I do not disagree with the fact that what Revan taught him surpassed the Academy, just that those were not necessarily his teachings. He learned those techniques from the Trayus Academy, then shared those things with Bane.
Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
When Revan met Ajunta Pall (who is also a powerful and famous ancient Sith Lord), Ajunta asked Revan about the conditions of Sith in his age and Revan told him that Sith of his age are far more powerful.
I don't remember him actually speaking those words, but maybe he did- I don't know. But if he did, please provide me with a link.


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Old 12-08-2006, 12:29 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Your arguement over Canderous's remarks on Revan is entirely baseless. Because what else would you expect from him to say about Revan? Of-course he will say high about Revan because Revan defeated the Mandalorian forces and ended their threat to the Republic for once and all. But Canderous also said that Revan gave the mandalorians an exceptional challenge that they desired for so many years and thats why he respected Revan so much. And Canderous also clearly said that it did not matters to him that his forces were defeated in the war with The Republic, but he appreciated the challenge given to his forces by Revan because it was he who turned the tide in that war.

Well you just stated my point exactly.
From a human perspective, yes, I totally agree. People do flatter those who defeat them. But mind that it's a game, and what's provided by the game itself is basically what it's SUPPOSED to be. Revan's image being such, as described by Canderous, is simply what the game designers designed it to be. And it's not only Canderous- the entire KotOR game contributes to such an image of Revan. You "take the victim as you find him". I mean, Revan is that, protraited by the contents in the game, and we should take him the way he's portraited to be. Whether you like him or not is up to you, and you can imagine him to be whatever you want him to be in your universe, and you can insert whatever human motives into the speakers in the game. But that would make no constructive contribution to an objective discussion based on the game.
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Old 12-08-2006, 12:36 PM   #119
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True. Don't get me wrong, I do think Revan was a smart guy, a powerful Force user, and a great leader, I just do not think he is some all-powerful, all-knowing, un-beatable god.


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Old 12-08-2006, 12:47 PM   #120
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True. Don't get me wrong, I do think Revan was a smart guy, a powerful Force user, and a great leader, I just do not think he is some all-powerful, all-knowing, un-beatable god.
I know, of course he isn't almighty; he's not even a skywalker and even a skywalker isn't all almighty.

But giving him the credits he deserves doesn't make one a fanboy- it's important to see such distinction. I see people who shy away from giving deserved tributes to Revan perhaps simply because Revan's overrated by fanboys out there. Maybe they're afraid they might be called a fanboy if they do so, or maybe they simply want to do something different, I don't know. But it's best to see things objectively. Whether one likes him or not is one thing, but one can't undo what he's done as portraited in the game. Else one'd only become the extreme opposite of "Revan fanboys".
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