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View Poll Results: Who would win in a fight?
Revan 149 74.13%
Nihilus 52 25.87%
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Thread: Revan VS. Nihilus... who would win
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Old 12-08-2006, 02:52 PM   #121
S_W_LeGenD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Like who? So what anyway? It hasn't been confirmed as canon as far as I can tell. Prove that it has been.
Some in this forum and as well in other forums believe that "Sion vs Nihilus" Video is canon. Check "Nihilus vs Sion" thread as a hint.

Also I am not sure that whether "Sion vs Nihilus" video is canon or not and I don't care much about it. But it explains to us a few things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
What Jediphile said.
I have high-lighted some of the abilites of Revan and add to them Malak's abilities as well (since Revan trained Malak in the Sith Arts) and you will get an idea that Revan was indeed a very powerful Force User as well.

See! I used some logic and put some pieces of Revan's achievements together to show a picture of what Revan would know. And still we don't know about the full extent of his power as his information is not even complete yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
You do realise how much of a Revan fan boy you sound like when you say crap like 'Revan's mastery of the force was so great' right? I agree with Jediphile. All this tells suggests is that the ancient Sith were more powerful than Revan, so your proof is somewhat self defeating. EagerWeasel makes a good point too. Since when did Darth Bane's opinion become a canonical source?
Revan always wanted to learn more then expected as even his masters remarked on this. And he visited various worlds to seek more knowledge and POD Novel has already provided us a hint that Revan's knowledge surpassed the entirety of Sith knowledge found in Korriban Planet (as Bane reveals this) after learning from Revan's holocron. And I must remind you that Korriban Planet also cantained Tombs of powerful ancient Sith Lords with their secrets preserved in them and Revan explored all those Tombs to discover their secrets. So all this shows that he learned a lot about Sith Knowledge and such great knowledge will also enhance his mastery in the force. Now you get the picture?

And Bane was not a fool and he had no reason to lie regarding Revan because Revan's teachings impressed him and Revan even taught Bane the secret of "Thought Bomb", which proved to be very useful to Bane.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Did they? This is the first I've heard of it. Care to prove it? Besides, Revan's companions did follow him/her on the Star Forge for a while, up until the fight with Bastila or the three Dark Jedi Masters. You have to remember from that point onwards, their were no more Sith to fight, apart from Malak.
Ok! tell me that what roles can "Mission Vao" and "T3-M4" can perform in such an extensive battle? Even "Zaalbar" is a very vulnerable target in such battles. And Revan will not risk his entire party in such engagements.

And no canonical sources have mentioned that all of his party members followed him and if any had then you can mention it over here.

Also, check this information: (taken from a detailed Revan's profile)

"Aboard the Star Forge, Revan almost single-handedly blew through Malak's defences composed of the Star Forge's droid, Sith soliders, and Dark Jedi, displaying his strong affinity to the Force and her/his mastery of lightsaber combat. He faced off against Bastila once again. Although she was able to renew her strength with the power of the Forge, Revan continued to stay strong no matter how much Bastila renewed her vigor. After winning the fight, he convinced her to turn back to the light side. Bastila used her Battle Meditation to aid the Republic, turning the tide of the ensuing battle. Finally, Revan again confronted his former friend and apprentice, Malak, in an epic lightsaber duel, while the Republic fleet, no longer hindered by Bastila's Battle Meditation, continued its bombardment of the Star Forge. Malak continually attempted suck energy from the Jedi prisoners he held in stasis to renew his strength, but this did not stop Revan, as he released many of these Jedi to allow them to become one with the Force. At last, with no Jedi to help renew his strength, Malak was cut down. Before his friend's death, Revan apologized for starting him down the dark path although reminded him that he continued down it willingly. Malak realized that he had no one to blame for his fate other than himself. Thus Darth Malak, Dark Lord of the Sith, died, his life ending in darkness and regret, and the Star Forge was destroyed. In light of his actions, Revan became known as The Prodigal Knight in the history of the Jedi."

And even Malak gave credit to Revan for destroying most of his forces stationed in Star Forge, as he mentioned this in during the battle on Star Forge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Also, you need to distinguish the difference between gameplay mechanics and the plot. The gameplay mechanics in K1 and K2 only allowed you to take two companions at the maximum.
Gameplay Mechanics are limitations added to your actions along with some feats, powers and the way you perform your actions in a game.

Examples are:

- Concept of "Leveling Up".
- Gender Selection.
- Feats. (A character learns things through training and does not gains feats actually to enhance his abilities.)
- A few non canon Force Moves like "Force Immunity". Technically "Force Immunity" is related to "Force Deflect". But in games, the developers should have provided "Force Deflect" power, which is a canonical Force Defensive ability.
- Damage of Force Moves.
- Low damage of Weapons.
- Party Members joining you and this too being influenced by Gender of main character. (in case of K2)
- Less Force Moves. (in case of K1)
- The Limitations in choosing number of Companions.
- Your actions in the game.

Actually the story or plot of KOTOR games are canon and Videos and Narrations in these games are also canon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Storywise, all of Revan's companions would of fought with him/her on the Star Forge, since none of them had any reason to stay on the Ebon Hawk, because half a dozen Jedi Knights were there to protect the ships so the Sith didn't cut off their escape route.
Like I have hinted above, some of his companions will become liabilities for him and would make things more complicated. So their is a good reason to state that not all of his companions followed him in to the Star Forge as not all were warriors and some would get killed in such a battle.

And Sith started engaging those Jedi as soon as they landed on Star Forge, so we can't say that more will not come.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Do you seriously think that three people would have fought the entire Sith army that was present on the Star Forge? You're looking at things from a gameplay perspective. Storywise, Revan and his/her companions would have had many Jedi Knights and Republic troops helping them fight the Sith on the Star Forge. Logic would tell you that.
A team of Jedi Knights did went in their to stop Bastilla from using her Battle Meditation but many of them got killed.

And remember that Malak clearly indicated that it was due to Revan's intervention that his forces were failing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Have you played K2? If you did, you'd realise that Sion, Kreia, the Exile and Darth Nihilus all possessed unique abilities that rivaled Revan's. Their is a concept in Star Wars that if you are more powerful than your opponent, then you will defeat them in an open, 'one on one' battle.
Each K2 character was unique in his own way but Revan's abilities still places him ahead of them.

Let me high-light some:

- Master Swordsman. (A Prodigal Knight)

Revan was the best known duelist in entire Jedi Order in his age. He has proved his superb swordsmanship by killing many powerful individuals.

Some of his notable victims were:

A) Mandalore - The Ultimate (Leader of the Mandalorian forces in KOTOR era. And he was very powerful.)
B) Yusanis (Greatest Echani warrior ever known)
C) Darth Malak (A very powerful Sith Lord and also a master swordsman)
D) Calo Nord (The most feared Bounty Hunter in his age)

And Revan killed many others, especially on Star Forge.

- Excellent Precognition ability.

Revan's precognition capability was put to ultimate test when he faced the greatest Echani warrior ever known. And Revan slaughtered him.

- Great mastery in the Force.

Revan explored many worlds in quest for greater power. Some of his Force moves are:

A) Force Lightning (Any powerful Sith Lord knows this)
B) Force Storm - Lightning (Demonstrated in Lehon)
C) Mind Control
D) Thought Bomb (Taught to Bane)
E) Telekinetic Abilities (Demonstrated in Lehon and Dantooine)
F) Drain Knowledge (A person who learned a lot from Malachor V will know this as well)

Then he also taught Malak in Sith Arts and he knows Malak's moves as well. Which also involves:

G) Saber Throw
H) Stasis Power
I) Force Push and Whirlwind
J) Force Choke and Kill
K) Defensive Abilities (Malak could counter many Force Moves as well)

Also, Revan learned more powers that have not been revealed yet but POD Novel hints that he knew some more deadly Sith Powers apart from "Thought Bomb".

- Very intelligent and Smart.

Revan was known for making smart decisions and he proved his great intelligence in the Mandalorian War.

- Ability to influence many people.

Revan always inspired people to join his cause. But in-case if some did not agree with him then he knew how to convince them with his Mind Control abilities.

- Amazing Achievements.

A) He led Republic Forces to victory against the Mandalorian Forces.
B) He created a Vast and powerful Sith Empire as a DLOTS.
C) His actions once again led Republic Forces to victory against Malak's Sith Empire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
You don't think that the Exile, Kreia, Nihilus and Sion could beat Revan in a one on one fight? I certainly think they could. In fact, I think they all would defeat Revan in combat, but that's just my opinion.
See the above information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
I'm not saying that Revan wasn't powerful. In his/her timeline, Revan was powerful, but 'looking at the big picture' which means in the entire Star Wars timeline, I don't see why Revan would be considered as one of the most powerful Jedi/Sith ever. No way.
His achievements speak volumes about his power. And I have high-lighted many of his abilities now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Darth Sidious was canonically the most powerful Sith Lord of all time.
I fully agree and mentioned this before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Well fair enough, that's your opinion, you're entitled to it. I don't think that Revan is among the most powerful characters in the entire Star Wars franchise, but you do. Meh, as Jediphile said, why should we have to agree all the time?
Then its your choice and I can't do much about this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Yes, you do actually. How does this prove that Revan was a brilliant strategist and a military genius? This is just a biast opinion of one man. As Jediphile and EagerWeasel have pointed out, of course Canderous is going to speak highly of Revan. Duh.
Read his details in his profiles and you will know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Apart from Revan's 'cleaning house' tactic, tell me what else Revan did that was fascinating? I'm not saying he/she isn't a brilliant strategist and I understand why people would assume that he/she was, I'm just pointing out that I haven't seen any proof of his/her 'genius' tactics.
Under Revan's command, Republic Forces started employing "Ambush and Retreat" tactics. They also fought in a very organized manner and laid Traps in their paths and led Mandalorians to those traps in many occasions.

Canderous explains all this in a very good manner regarding the changes Revan implemented in tactics of Republic Forces to out-smart Mandalorians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
There's no way in hell that you've made it clear that Revan was a military genius. This is a weak argument.
Do some search and you will know most of the answers. Spoon Feeding is not always a good idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
It was Revan and Malak who inspired the renegade Jedi to join them in the war and reject the decision of Jedi Council.
No! Revan made the decision to help Republic first and Malak followed him, since he was his friend and started helping Revan in getting more followers.

Last edited by S_W_LeGenD; 12-09-2006 at 03:13 AM.
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Old 12-08-2006, 03:29 PM   #122
Titanius Anglesmith
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Your last post eh? You didn't even respond to anythingfrom my last post which proves to me that you have no contradictory explanation for the things that I said. I guess it's for the best since obviously, neither one of us is going to be able to convince the other. It just seems to me that you let your fan-boy love for Revan influence your judgment on whether or not he could defeat Nihilus. It doesn't seem that you have listened to anything I, The Architect, or Jediphile has said, because no matter how much real and logical evidence we present to you, you just turn the other way. But oh well, a little healthy debating every now and then is always fun.


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Old 12-08-2006, 03:39 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
Your last post eh? You didn't even respond to anythingfrom my last post which proves to me that you have no contradictory explanation for the things that I said. I guess it's for the best since obviously, neither one of us is going to be able to convince the other. It just seems to me that you let your fan-boy love for Revan influence your judgment on whether or not he could defeat Nihilus. It doesn't seem that you have listened to anything I, The Architect, or Jediphile has said, because no matter how much real and logical evidence we present to you, you just turn the other way
QFE

I think Revan was a quality Sith Lord/Jedi, but i think too many of the fanboy's around here over rate him, hes he destroyed Malak and all those Sith, but he would have lost to Nihiulus, personally I think the Exile would beat him in a one on one fight but that Revan was the greater leader. If you like Revan would be the Supreme Comander and the Exile the Navy Seals/SAS.

Revan had no unique force storm lightning ability, and force lightning is not as good at killing people as a lightsaber. Eg, Yoda can block force lightning, but he would need a lightsaber to stop a lightsaber. I also believe that Yoda, Mace Windu, Obi-Wan, Plalpatine/Sidious/The Emporer, Vader/Anakin are all more powerful than Revan and I also believe all the above would loose in a fight against Nihilus because the Exile was the only 'Wound' in the force that Nihilus couldnt feed off



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Old 12-08-2006, 04:41 PM   #124
S_W_LeGenD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
I know he had Force Lightning. There is no power called Force Lightning Storm. Do you not understand? The One exaggerated greatly, he had never seen the Force in action before. I'm gunna use an example provided by
someone before me. Say I went back in time about 2,000 years and I take a flamethrower with me. The people see it in action and they think I have some kind special gift where I can take a canon and create fire to shoot out of it. Obviously we know that's not true, since that's impossible. The One greatly exaggerated.
Oh! boy!

The One was not as much of an idiot or primitive as you try to protray him here. Many Ships crashed on Lehon planet and many survivors were looted from their valuables (including their weapons) by Black Rakatans, so The One was getting familiar with the high-tech inhabitants of the galaxy and their weapons as well. He was also known to kill a Mandalorian and we already know that Mandalorians were skilled warriors and used ranged weaponry as well in fights, and this shows that The One was not an ignorant individual.

And a normal Force Lightning power does not kills several enemies in a single strike because it hits one target at a time. The One clearly said that "many" of his warriors and beasts were killed by a single Force attack from Revan and this power is known to us as "Force Lightning (Storm)". This power strikes its targets from above and hits several targets and not strikes its targets from below in a straight manner like a normal Force Lightning does. So get this information in your head now.

here is a brief on Force Storm (Lightning):

Force Storm was an extremely powerful dark side Force power and represented the pinnacle of the Force's power to conjure electricity, proving more devastating even than the lethal Force lightning. The user raised his palm upward and through the Force created an explosion of electricity directed at all foes in the vicinity. It was used by both the Sith and Jedi with dark side tendencies during the Jedi Civil War. Unlike the weaker Force lightning, Force Storm was not limited to attacking enemies in one direction, as it affected all foes within a certain radius from the user.

Link: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force...28lightning%29

This power has also been demonstrated by "Darth Bane" as well.

So stop making baseless claims.

Also, read more about The One here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_One

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
Show me somewhere that canon material says he has something called Mind Domination. And don't tell me that you think the fact of how many Jedi he recruited for the war explains that
Check this Link: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Affect_Mind

Revan knew this ability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
I've never read the Bane book and don't know what a thought bomb is so...yea.
A brief on Thought Bomb:

The Thought Bomb was a powerful and destructive application of the Dark Side of the Force which targeted all Force-sensitive individuals and vaporized clothing, flesh, bone, and even stone within the radius of the weapon's blast.

Link: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Thought_Bomb

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
What Telekinetic abilities did he show there? Another thing I'd like to see some material for.
Do you even understand that what Telekinesis means?

Here is a brief on TK:

Telekinesis, abbreviated TK, was a neutral ability that most Jedi had. With it, they could lift objects according to their concentration and move them, hovering the items in any direction.

Most Jedi can lift up objects and throw or move them. And Revan demonstrates this ability during his training session in Dantooine.

You surely need to open your eyes now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
So anyone who learns a lot from somewhere has Drain Knowledge? That would mean that nearly all Jedi have Drain Knowledge. Nearly all Sith have Drain Knowledge. Nearly all people who take a creative arts class have Drain Knowledge. Need I go on?
Drain knowledge was a power that was surely practised by many powerful Sith Lords of old times. And Jedi don't use this power so your arguement is baseless again. And a person who would explore and learn many Sith secrets in various worlds will surely learn this ability as well because it was a common power. Even Malak demonstrated this ability. You need to use some "Common Sense" as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
Uh...show me in there where I said the power of the Jedi had anything to do with corruption. You obviously didn't actually take the time to try to understand it. We all know that DS energies corrupt. DS energies do not kill. Revan's life was never in danger. Just because he gave in to the DS does not mean he was doing it to protect his life. He did it because he had no choice. As Kreia says, "It corrupts all life that walks upon it's surface." She did not say, it kills all life that walks upon it's surface that does not give in to the DS.
Ok! point taken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
Of course he had some knowledghe of defensive abilities, but that certainly does not mean he could absorb DS powers. And your point about how his sheer will saved him from death on Malachor is invalid. All Sith can feed on the power of the DS. How do you think they have any DS abilities at all. In the temple on Dxun, you can "feed" on the DS energies there, and don't tell me that's game mechanics because it's not. There is a difference between game mechanics and the story line.
Sith don't feed on DS power, and they are actually "consumed" by it. And a "Force Sensitive" individual is actually trained in the ways of the Sith before that individual becomes a Sith. Revan's body actually fed on DS energies on Malachor V and thus he demonstrated an ability to absorb DS power. And since Exile can feed on DS energies as well, then this information further clarifies my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
And about Kreia. She was corrupted on the surface of Malachor, but was her life ever in any danger? No, nor was anyone else's. She was simply corrupted by the DS, she never "absorbed" any DS energies, she simply gave in- just as Revan did. And provide me with a source for your statment about how the more lightsided a person is, the more vulnerable they are to DS energies.
She never fed on DS energies so she could not get this capability. She was only corrupted by DS energies.

A jedi's sensitivity is determined by his/her affiliation with the Force. Also, a Jedi who is very Light Sided, will always fear the Dark Side and will be more sensitive to such an exposure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
I don't care what novel it was in: it's still Darth Bane's opinion. And who said Bane lied? It was his opinion that what Revan taught him surpassed the teachings of the Sith Academy on Korriban. Just because I disagree does not mean either one of us has lied, it just means that I disagree. And I do not disagree with the fact that what Revan taught him surpassed the Academy, just that those were not necessarily his teachings. He learned those techniques from the Trayus Academy, then shared those things with Bane.
So it is your fault that if you disagree with a canon information. And canon materials always have high credibility.

And of-course, Revan learned many things from Malachor. But not all of his teachings were based on what he learned from Malachor. His personal beliefs were also involved in his teachings to Bane.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
I don't remember him actually speaking those words, but maybe he did- I don't know. But if he did, please provide me with a link.
Play KOTOR again and visit the Tomb of Ajunta Pall and meet his spirit and you will know this, when you will interrogate him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7
QFE

I think Revan was a quality Sith Lord/Jedi, but i think too many of the fanboy's around here over rate him, hes he destroyed Malak and all those Sith, but he would have lost to Nihiulus, personally I think the Exile would beat him in a one on one fight but that Revan was the greater leader. If you like Revan would be the Supreme Comander and the Exile the Navy Seals/SAS.

Revan had no unique force storm lightning ability, and force lightning is not as good at killing people as a lightsaber. Eg, Yoda can block force lightning, but he would need a lightsaber to stop a lightsaber. I also believe that Yoda, Mace Windu, Obi-Wan, Plalpatine/Sidious/The Emporer, Vader/Anakin are all more powerful than Revan and I also believe all the above would loose in a fight against Nihilus because the Exile was the only 'Wound' in the force that Nihilus couldnt feed off
Read my above points before making baseless conclusions. Because my points are backed by some sources.

Last edited by S_W_LeGenD; 12-08-2006 at 05:46 PM.
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Old 12-08-2006, 05:41 PM   #125
Titanius Anglesmith
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Wow...this is funny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
The One was not as much of an idiot or primitive as you try to protray him here. Many Ships crashed on Lehon planet and many survivors were looted from their valuables (including their weapons) by Black Rakatans, so The One was getting familiar with the high-tech inhabitants of the galaxy and their weapons as well. He was also known to kill a Mandalorian and we already know that Mandalorians were skilled warriors and used ranged weaponry as well in fights.

And a normal Force Lightning power does not kills several enemies in a single strike because it hits one target at a time. The One clearly said that many of his warriors and beasts were killed by a single "Force Attack" from Revan and this power is known to us as "Force Lightning (Storm)". This power strikes its targets from above and hits multiple targets and not strikes its targets from below like a normal Force Lightning does. So get this information in your head.

here is a brief on Force Storm (Lightning):

Force Storm was an extremely powerful dark side Force power and represented the pinnacle of the Force's power to conjure electricity, proving more devastating even than the lethal Force lightning. The user raised his palm upward and through the Force created an explosion of electricity directed at all foes in the vicinity. It was used by both the Sith and Jedi with dark side tendencies during the Jedi Civil War. Unlike the weaker Force lightning, Force Storm was not limited to attacking enemies in one direction, as it affected all foes within a certain radius from the user.
First, I have never claimed the One was an idiot, so stop putting words in my mouth. I realized ships crashed there and he took weapons and studied about them, but as I have said in the past, he had never seen the Force in action. And you're wrong about Force Lightning. It hits several enemies at a time, but only in a limited arc in front of you. The only difference between Force Storm and Force Lightning is that Force Sotrm hits all enemies around the attacker and not just in front of him. And btw, I have all my information in my head, it's just that you refuse to listen.

Wake up call- not everything on Wikipedia is canon material. People can go post whatever they want on there.

My claims do have a base, and that's logical thinking.

Mind Domination...Pretty much the same thing as Dominate Mind. Obi-Wan had it, as we see in Episode 4. Just because someone is an influential person does not mean they have a highly advanced form of Dominate Mind. Do you think Malak had this Mind Domination. He recruited plenty of Jedi to fight in the Mandalorian War.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
A brief on Thought Bomb:

The Thought Bomb was a powerful and destructive application of the Dark Side of the Force which targeted all Force-sensitive individuals and vaporized clothing, flesh, bone, and even stone within the radius of the weapon's blast.
Fair enough. Since I don't know much about Thought Bombs I don't really have much to say about that, but I certainly know that Revan was not the one who discovered this power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Do you even understand that what Telekinesis means?
Yes I know what telekinesis means. You don't have to treat me like a 5 year old.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Here is a brief on TK:

Telekinesis, abbreviated TK, was a neutral ability that most Jedi had. With it, they could lift objects according to their concentration and move them, hovering the items in any direction.

Most Jedi can lift up objects and throw or move them. And Revan demonstrates this ability during his training session in Dantooine.

You surely need to open your eyes now.
Uh...that is certainly not unique to Revan. I'm positive that Nihilus knew that too, so no advantage for Revan there.

My eyes are plenty open. Perhaps you should cut down on the little immature jabs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Drain knowledge was a power that was surely practised by many powerful Sith Lords of old times. And Jedi don't use this power so your arguement is baseless again. A person who would explore Sith secrets in many worlds will surely learn this ability as well. Even Malak demonstrated this ability. You need to use some "Common Sense".
Where exactly does it say that he has drain knowledge. From your list of powers that Revan supposedly has, it seems that you're just assuming that he has it. Don't jump to conclusions without some hard evidence to back it up.

Ah...another little immature jab. Read it again and you'll see that my point was that not all people who learn a lot from somewhere suddenly have Drain Knowledge. I know only Sith use it, but that doesn't mean that some might have the capability but they just don't use it. And also, Drain Knowledge would really have no impact on a 1 on 1 fight with Nihilus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
So it is your fault that if you disagree with a canon material. And canon materials always have high credibility.

And of-course, Revan learned many things from Malachor. But not all of his teachings were based on what he learned from Malachor. His personal beliefs were also involved in his teachings to Bane.
I'll say it again, Darth Bane's opinion is not canonical material. Now if the author of that book stated that what Bane learned surpassed the teachings of the Sith Academy on Lorriban, then I would believe it. But, it says, "in his opinion" (referring to Bane), Revan's teachings surpassed the Korriban Academy. Until there is some big announcement that says Darth Bane knows everything, then I won't believe that what he thinks is canon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Play KOTOR again and visit the Tomb of Ajunta Pall and meet his spirit and you will know this, when you will interrogate him.
When I get around to it, I'll play it again.


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Old 12-08-2006, 06:10 PM   #126
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Wow! now you suddenly claim to know everything. "Very smart"!

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
First, I have never claimed the One was an idiot, so stop putting words in my mouth. I realized ships crashed there and he took weapons and studied about them, but as I have said in the past, he had never seen the Force in action. And you're wrong about Force Lightning. It hits several enemies at a time, but only in a limited arc in front of you. The only difference between Force Storm and Force Lightning is that Force Sotrm hits all enemies around the attacker and not just in front of him. And btw, I have all my information in my head, it's just that you refuse to listen.
And? Revan actually demonstrated Force Storm because his power hit several Rakatan warriors from above, as The One said that "your power came down from the Sky and slaughtered many of my warriors". He was actually telling that Revan's Force attack hit several of his warriors from above their heads and this explains something. Normal Force Lightning does not hits it's target from above as it goes straight towards the target.

Thus my point stands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
Wake up call- not everything on Wikipedia is canon material. People can go post whatever they want on there.
It's an unofficial Star Wars source, which mostly relies on Canon material and you can't just openly Edit information in it, as owners of that Source watch these kinds of changes very clearly and they take actions accordingly. It is not like wikipedia actually.

And owners of that source certainly know a lot more about Star Wars then you do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
My claims do have a base, and that's logical thinking.
So do mine as well (as they are backed by some sources at-least) but you fail to understand my points or logic used behind them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
Mind Domination...Pretty much the same thing as Dominate Mind. Obi-Wan had it, as we see in Episode 4. Just because someone is an influential person does not mean they have a highly advanced form of Dominate Mind. Do you think Malak had this Mind Domination. He recruited plenty of Jedi to fight in the Mandalorian War.
He learns this power actually. And in KOTOR, "Dominate Mind" is only reserved for our main character actually. And their is a logical reason behind this, which only Bioware developers can explain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
Fair enough. Since I don't know much about Thought Bombs I don't really have much to say about that, but I certainly know that Revan was not the one who discovered this power.
But Revan learned it as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
Yes I know what telekinesis means. You don't have to treat me like a 5 year old.
Know you don't or otherwise you don't have to argue on this part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
Uh...that is certainly not unique to Revan. I'm positive that Nihilus knew that too, so no advantage for Revan there.
Of-course, both of them have this ability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
My eyes are plenty open. Perhaps you should cut down on the little immature jabs.
No they are not actually and thats why you keep on arguing on pitty matters as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
Where exactly does it say that he has drain knowledge. From your list of powers that Revan supposedly has, it seems that you're just assuming that he has it. Don't jump to conclusions without some hard evidence to back it up.
"Logic" and "Reasoning" certainly lacks in you. This power was commonly used by many Sith in KOTOR era, as even normal Dark Jedi demonstrated this power. So stop acting like someone, who always needs spoon-feeding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
Ah...another little immature jab. Read it again and you'll see that my point was that not all people who learn a lot from somewhere suddenly have Drain Knowledge. I know only Sith use it, but that doesn't mean that some might have the capability but they just don't use it. And also, Drain Knowledge would really have no impact on a 1 on 1 fight with Nihilus.
I am not discussing fight with Nihilus now and check your high-lighted line here. Some people know it but they don't use it most often. Revan became a Sith after landing on Malachor and he would learn this power as well as it was a common practise among Sith of his age.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
I'll say it again, Darth Bane's opinion is not canonical material. Now if the author of that book stated that what Bane learned surpassed the teachings of the Sith Academy on Lorriban, then I would believe it. But, it says, "in his opinion" (referring to Bane), Revan's teachings surpassed the Korriban Academy. Until there is some big announcement that says Darth Bane knows everything, then I won't believe that what he thinks is canon.
Wow! some of you can trust Kreia's opinions but some of you cannot trust Darth Bane's opinion. What kind of Bias is this?

Every bit of detail in POD Novel is canon including personal opinions of Bane. The writer tried to tell you this information in a realistic manner and thus he made it sound like that it was not just writer's opinion but also the opinion of the main character in his Novel. Get this now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
When I get around to it, I'll play it again.
Good enough!

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Old 12-08-2006, 06:34 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
And? Revan demonstrated Force Storm because his power hits Rakatan warriors from above, as The One said that "your power came down from the Sky". he was actually telling that Revan's attack hit his warriors from above.

Thus my point stands.
You just made my point. I know how Force Storm works. My point was that Revan had regular Force Storm just like any other powerful Sith.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
And owners of that source certainly know a lot more about Star Wars then you do.
I never claimed to more about Star Wars than the owners of that source. All I'm saying is that not everything on Wikipedia or Wookieepedia is canon.

[quote=S_W_LeGenD]He learns this power actually. And in KOTOR, "Dominate Mind" is only reserved for our main character actually. And their is a logical reason behind this, which only Bioware developers can explain.[.quote]

If you look a little closer at the article you provided, you will see that it says Revan moved on to gain Dominate Mind. It says nothing about a special Mind Dominance power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Know you don't or otherwise you don't have to argue on this part.

No they are not actually and thats why you keep on arguing on pitty matters as well.
Uh...you can quit denying it. I know what it means. If you think my eyes aren't open because I do not share the same opinions as you do, you're dead wrong. My eyes are open, I just see things a little differently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
"Logic" and "Reasoning" certainly lacks in you. This power was commonly used by many Sith in KOTOR era, even normal Dark Jedi demonstrated this power. So stop acting like someone, who always needs spoon-feeding.
Ok...so what? The topic of this discussion is Revan vs. Nihilus. We're supposed to be giving reasons as to why we think one or the other would win. It seems that you have been straying away from that. You keep providing me with this handful of powers, some of which were common among Jedi/Sith of that age, that Revan has, which would not give him an advantage over Nihilus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am not discussing fight with Nihilus now and your high-lighted line is what I am trying to say. Some people know it but they don't use it most often. Revan became a Sith after landing on Malachor and he would learn this power as well as it was common practise among Sith.
Well maybe you should start: give me some reasons why you think Revan would win: not whether you think he has a lot of good Force powers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
You can trust Kreia's opinion but you cannot trust Darth Bane's opinion. What kind of Bias is this?
Yes actually that's right. I believe more of what Kreia said than I do Bane. That is not bias, that is opinion. I have the right to believe that just as much as you have the right to believe what Bane says and not what Kreia says (that is, if you do).


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Old 12-08-2006, 06:50 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
You just made my point. I know how Force Storm works. My point was that Revan had regular Force Storm just like any other powerful Sith.
Ok! finally we settle on something, which is good.

And very few Sith have canonically demonstrated this power actually, as most has demonstrated regular Force Lightning. Sidious and Bane knew this power though. And Revan's demonstration of this power is part of the (Story) of KOTOR, so it is canon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
I never claimed to more about Star Wars than the owners of that source. All I'm saying is that not everything on Wikipedia or Wookieepedia is canon.
Wikipedia is sometimes objectionable in its information but now it has started improving a lot. But Wookieepedia is fully reliable as the sources it's owners use for the information are mostly canon. You can note this in Wookieepedia's "sources" section.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
If you look a little closer at the article you provided, you will see that it says Revan moved on to gain Dominate Mind. It says nothing about a special Mind Dominance power.
Ok! may be my explanation was little confusing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
Uh...you can quit denying it. I know what it means. If you think my eyes aren't open because I do not share the same opinions as you do, you're dead wrong. My eyes are open, I just see things a little differently.
Well since you understand things from a little different perspective then I can understand that some of my explanations took time for you to grab.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
Ok...so what? The topic of this discussion is Revan vs. Nihilus. We're supposed to be giving reasons as to why we think one or the other would win. It seems that you have been straying away from that. You keep providing me with this handful of powers, some of which were common among Jedi/Sith of that age, that Revan has, which would not give him an advantage over Nihilus.
Both of these Sith Lords are very powerful indeed.

But my point is that if Revan makes the first move with his force abilities, then he wins. But if Nihilus launches his attack first then Nihilus wins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
Well maybe you should start: give me some reasons why you think Revan would win: not whether you think he has a lot of good Force powers.
I have mentioned my final view above. Revan can hit Nihilus from many yards back with his Force Storm capability and over-power Nihilus. And in this case, Revan will get the upper-hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
Yes actually that's right. I believe more of what Kreia said than I do Bane. That is not bias, that is opinion. I have the right to believe that just as much as you have the right to believe what Bane says and not what Kreia says (that is, if you do).
Your choice but that does not makes my point wrong either.

And no hard feelings for you! so Chill!

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Old 12-08-2006, 07:04 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
But my point is that if Revan makes the first move with his force abilities, then he wins. But if Nihilus launches his attack first then Nihilus wins.
Well yea, whoever strikes first would win. They are both powerful enough to kill each other quickly, it's just that I'm almost positive that Nihilus would strike first, since his power covers a much greater distance than Revan's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
I have mentioned my final view above. Revan can hit Nihilus from many yards back with his Force Storm capability and over-power Nihilus. And in this case, Revan will get the upper-hand.
True, Revan can strike from a few yards away, but Nihilus can launch his power from his orbiting ship to encompass an entire planet, so that's a bit bigger range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Your choice but that does not makes my point wrong either.

And no hard feelings for you! so Chill!
Neither one of us is wrong on this point, we each have our own opinions.

And I'm very chilled. I've remained calm throughout this whole thing, it's just that when someone comes across as a Revan fan-boy, I get a little frustrated. Nothing against you, I just like a little healthy debate occasionally.


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Old 12-08-2006, 07:06 PM   #130
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S_W_LegenD... Have you ever played KOTOR? Did you ever get Force storm? I can't believe some of the things you're claiming. Revan had it, just like any powerful Sith would. The Exile could have it, Kreia could have it, Juhani could have it for crying out loud. And the One's description of Revan's power fits exactly with what it should be. Force storm strikes multiple enemies, simultaneously, from above, and does a lot of damage.

Nihilus certainly would be able to use Force Storm himself, and there isn't really any evidence that either one would be significantly better at it than the other. If Revan was in range to do it on Nihilus, Nihilus would be in range to do it on Revan. And if they were in range, then Nihilus' drain power would be in range as well, assuming it worked like that. And that's the question.

Assuming that Nihilus' drain power does not work as a direct attack in close combat, Force Storm doesn't provide any advantage one way or the other. Revan would probably win, because he is the superior swordsman and is smarter.
Assuming Nihilus' drain power DOES work in close combat, the force storm point it moot because Nihilus would be able to use it on Revan right away anyways.


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Old 12-08-2006, 08:21 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JawaJoey
S_W_LegenD... Have you ever played KOTOR? Did you ever get Force storm? I can't believe some of the things you're claiming. Revan had it, just like any powerful Sith would. The Exile could have it, Kreia could have it, Juhani could have it for crying out loud. And the One's description of Revan's power fits exactly with what it should be. Force storm strikes multiple enemies, simultaneously, from above, and does a lot of damage.
Yes! I have played KOTOR many times. And Revan's demonstration of Force Storm power is mentioned in a narration by an individual (The One), which is part of the KOTOR Story and thus becomes canon and is also mentioned in some sources. And it did struck several enemies from above, and killed them all instantly.

And most of the Sith Lords have demonstrated regular Force Lightning and some even have demonstrated "Chain Lightning". But this does not means that they were weak or something. And people often confuse "Chain Lightning" with "Force Storm".

A brief on "Chain Lightning":

Chain Lightning was a variation of the Force Lightning ability, with the difference being that the lightning was able to strike one person and then move to another or several others. As it was more powerful than the standard lightning, it required a greater amount of discipline and concentration to project and sustain the stream of lightning. Notable users include the lightning-trained Sith Cultist.

As an example: Malak actually demonstrated "Chain Lightning" but still his power was devastating.

Other then this, we do not have any narrations or proper indications regarding Exile, Kreia or any other character in KOTOR games having this power. In gameplay, you can learn any power but it has nothing to do with canon until a power is specially reserved for your character and Force Storm is not specially reserved for anyone.

Also, remember that gameplay is not canon. You can learn anything in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JawaJoey
Nihilus certainly would be able to use Force Storm himself, and there isn't really any evidence that either one would be significantly better at it than the other. If Revan was in range to do it on Nihilus, Nihilus would be in range to do it on Revan. And if they were in range, then Nihilus' drain power would be in range as well, assuming it worked like that. And that's the question.
It's just an assumption from you that Nihilus would know Force Storm as their are no narrations or sources that confirm this.

Canonically he knows:

- Super Force Drain
- Stasis Power
- Telekinetic Abilities
- Force Push
- Bond knowledge
- Telepathic Communication

Quote:
Originally Posted by JawaJoey
Assuming that Nihilus' drain power does not work as a direct attack in close combat, Force Storm doesn't provide any advantage one way or the other. Revan would probably win, because he is the superior swordsman and is smarter.
Force Storm canonically does lot more damage then regular Force Lightning. So, do not under-estimate its effectiveness.

And I agree that Revan is a superior swordsman and smarter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JawaJoey
Assuming Nihilus' drain power DOES work in close combat, the force storm point it moot because Nihilus would be able to use it on Revan right away anyways.
Of-course! if Nihilus launches his attack first then he wins.

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Old 12-09-2006, 01:20 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
And it did struck several enemies from above, and killed them all instantly.
I recall The One mentioning that, though the timing is excluded. For all we know, Revan could have been electrocuting the Rakata for hours.

Given how this is only one vague statement given by someone was in total awe of the Force, I would doubt the credibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Notable users include the lightning-trained Sith Cultist.[/I][/B]
In JA, the Sith Cultists trained in that used the same, standard high-level lightning that Palpatine and Desann used.

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Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Of-course! if Nihilus launches his attack first then he wins.
I have the feeling Nihilus would be the quicker of the two. Unless you can explain how he was able to kill at least several Jedi Masters at once.


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Old 12-09-2006, 02:36 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
I recall The One mentioning that, though the timing is excluded. For all we know, Revan could have been electrocuting the Rakata for hours.

Given how this is only one vague statement given by someone was in total awe of the Force, I would doubt the credibility.
No! The One indicated that his warriors were killed in a single attack by Revan and several sources also back this. And after this attack happened, The One thought that Revan would be a useful guy and he asked for Revan's help in his fight against the Elders (regarding getting the secrets to enter the Temple). But this assistance never came.

And when you meet him again, The One remembers you, explains you about your past encounter with his forces and your promise and then again asks you to assist him in his fight against the Elders. So he was sure and clear about all things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
In JA, the Sith Cultists trained in that used the same, standard high-level lightning that Palpatine and Desann used.
That brief is about "Chain Lightning". And people often confuse this power with the "Force Storm".

Canonically; Revan and Bane have demonstrated Force Storm. Their would be some others as well but I have not explored so much.

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Old 12-09-2006, 04:19 AM   #134
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No! The One indicated that his warriors were killed in a single attack by Revan and several sources also back this.
"They tried to take you prisoner, but you unleashed your magic - what you called the Force - upon them. Seeing your power they bowed before you and brought you here to me."

"You came to us after defeating our scouts who confronted you, much as you have again this time. The One saw your power... and your desire for the knowledge inside the Temple."

That's about as specific as it gets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Canonically; Revan and Bane have demonstrated Force Storm. Their would be some others as well but I have not explored so much.
It's all just Force lightning, really. Some Sith have just mastered it to a higher degree than others (such as the small single arc beams in Legacy compared to Palpatine).

You appear to have agreed that Nihilus would be quicker, by the way.


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Old 12-09-2006, 04:58 AM   #135
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Read my above points before making baseless conclusions. Because my points are backed by some sources.
ROFL I have read the entire thread (I might have forgotten some stuff as its a very long thread), Basically m8, half of what you say is based on Wiki, which is hardly the best of places to source. If i sourced any of my lab reports or essays for uni on that I would get a fail. Then the other half on The One, who was a dude who ate people; yes he may have been inteligent, but hes nothing short of primitive because of that. He had also never seen the force, so Force Storm, is just the lightning power in TSL which means you can hit multiple enemies, abit like force wave.

Also generally when an awful lot of people argue against you, your wrong. If your trying to claim Revan was more powerful than Yoda, Anakin or Luke or Sidious your having a complete giraffe, I could perhaps understand an argument against Mace and Obi-Wan, but even then I think those two are stronger than Revan.

Anyway in conclusion you love Revan, and are blinded by your emotion. I personally believe the Exile would have Revan in a one on one fight, as I have stated before. But I presume there is no way you could possibly accept this. Revan would loose to Nihilus end of. I personally dont think any normal force powers would work against Nihilus because like the exile he was caused at Malachor VI.



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Old 12-09-2006, 06:04 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes! I have played KOTOR many times. And Revan's demonstration of Force Storm power is mentioned in a narration by an individual (The One), which is part of the KOTOR Story and thus becomes canon and is also mentioned in some sources. And it did struck several enemies from above, and killed them all instantly.
----
And most of the Sith Lords have demonstrated regular Force Lightning and some even have demonstrated "Chain Lightning". But this does not means that they were weak or something. And people often confuse "Chain Lightning" with "Force Storm".
-----
It's just an assumption from you that Nihilus would know Force Storm as their are no narrations or sources that confirm this.
----
Force Storm canonically does lot more damage then regular Force Lightning. So, do not under-estimate its effectiveness.
----
Of-course! if Nihilus launches his attack first then he wins.
Yes, Revan has force storm as the One described, ie plain old Force Storm. That's what I said.
----
Where did weakness come from? Who called Sith Lords weak for having lightning?
Out of curiosity, where is the canon material that mentions chain lightning. It seems to be just a natural extension of Force Lightning, one that can hit multiple people, in one way or another. The only "Chain Lightning" I know of is in WoW.
----
Yeah, Nihilus could have it, and one would assume that any proper Sith does, but there is indeed no canonical evidence. It doesn't really matter though. It is undoubtedly a matter of Nihilus just not wanting to do it, since its a relatively common and basic Sith ability, particularly for Sith lords. Whether he can or does isn't important to the fight, because if he needed to, he probably could, and would be capable enough to defend against it at least somewhat regardless.
----
1. Where are you getting that canonical information? Not from KOTOR, I hope, because its not there. Also, Sidious torturing Luke is different from Revan exterminating primitives.
2. I'm not underestimating its effectiveness. Force Storm is awesome. I'm saying it would not be a terribly huge factor in the Nihilus fight. Without force drain, it would be one of many factors, and one of the lesser ones, that would mean Revan wins. With force drain, it most likely wouldn't help.
----
Yes. Also, if Nihilus and Revan launch their attacks at the same time, Nihilus wins. If Revan attacks first, but doesn't kill Nihilus before Nihilus attacks back, then Nihilus wins.
Assuming that Nihilus' power works suddenly in close combat, of course.
If Revan can't one shot Nihilus before Nihilus can do his move, (which I highly doubt Revan could do with Force Storm), then Nihilus wins.



By the way, jonathan7- Having a giraffe? What the HELL does that mean? Is that a foreign expression, or some sort of crazy freudian slip?


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Old 12-09-2006, 06:57 AM   #137
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By the way, jonathan7- Having a giraffe? What the HELL does that mean? Is that a foreign expression, or some sort of crazy freudian slip?
Hehe, it means having a laugh, but in a bad way... its abit of slang from the area of England I'm from



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Old 12-09-2006, 07:12 AM   #138
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This is a very long thread with loads of arguments. And obviously it's not coming to any conclusion, because

1) People's perceptions on Revan's power differ widely, based on what they like to believe. How do you compare Obiwan, Yoda, Vader... etc with a jedi who lived 4000 years ago? They exist in different contexts, and any comparison would have to be mostly arbitrary. We can only be sure that Revan is very powerful in HIS time while Palpy is the ultimate sith lord in HIS time. There's really no point in arguing anymore.

2) We do not know how Nihilus initiate his force-sucking power. How fast is it? Does it work only when Nihilus is undistracted? We do not know. All we know is that the jedi masters in Katarr did NOT see Nihilus when attacked (see my previous post). Any speculation thereafter is up to you.

We all have our very valid reasons to believe in what we believe. Case closed.

BTW, CSI:Nihilus, your sig made me laugh.
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Old 12-09-2006, 09:23 AM   #139
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But we can keep trying to persuade each other ;-)

Don't get me wrong I think Revan was a much better Sith Lord than Nihilus, Revan was a better leader, a better lightsaber fighter and a great tactition. But I think that Nihilus power was such that anyone other than the Exile going up against him would be futile, hence the whole point of TSL game, as if anyone else could of done it then you would have no need for the Exile. Just like in K1 where Revan was the only Jedi/Sith capable of defeating Malak and the Star Forge defences.

I still believe Revan to be the better over all leader, and supreme commander, but the exile the better fighter, but thats my personally opinion. On this however I think Nihilus would win, as I don't think conventional force powers would work against him, and i don't think his power would take long against a foe. But there ya go



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Old 12-09-2006, 10:46 AM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
I have the feeling Nihilus would be the quicker of the two. Unless you can explain how he was able to kill at least several Jedi Masters at once.
Now that would not require any quickness at all. I'd say he just brought his ship in orbit around that planet, then he consumed the world killing everything. I'm sure there was no fight between the masters and Nihilus.

You all seem to think, Revan would not be capable of killing the Jedi Masters...
But Kreia is? She killed 3 Jedi Master Council members instantly at once, one of them being a popular and definitly highly skilled Master. Does that make her more powerful than Revan? Or perhaps Revan learned that skill as well.. after all he was at the Trayus academy, and that's where I think Kreia learned that ability...
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Old 12-09-2006, 11:26 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Then blame Obsidian for that and not me. Because we already have got various indications that Malachor V corrupts those who dare walk on its surface.

We already have indications that Malachor V can corrupt any individual. So if Obsidian have shown otherwise then it is their fault for such contradictions.
I have not blamed you for anything. I've just suggested that your conclusion of what happened to Revan on Malachor V might be somewhat exaggerated based on what else we know of Malachor V. Besides, to suggest contradiction on Obsidian's part seems a bit unreasonable to me consideirng that TSL is the only source to ever explore the planet. Granted, it was introduced in K1, but only as the name of the place where the final battle of the Mandalorian Wars took place - other than that, we learned nothing about it in K1. Even Wookieepedia mentions its use on in the games and in the TSL chronicles (which is also KotOR2) and in the "New Essential Chronology", where it would be mentioned. This means that TSL is the only source that really explores Malachor V, and so that the writers of the game are the only ones to delve into its mysteries. I don't think that leaves much room for contradictions, and given the choice between your assumptions about what happened to Revan and their facts about the place, I'd be more inclined to go with the latter. Sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
I did not made that information by myself and being sensitive does not translates in to word "weak" because he was not weak. And being cast out of Jedi Order does not makes any individual Evil by default. He was fighting to save The Republic from its doom, so it was a noble act.
It's a matter of opinion, then. Don't get me wrong - I agree with you that Revan served a higher and benevolent goal at the time, and I also agree that he was justified in going to war. As Kreia says, "The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war." But note in which context she says that:

Kreia: "You were there at Malachor. Revan's choices were always his own. It was not teaching, or circumstance, or example. It was him. Is that what he was? Or was he always true to himself, no matter what personality he wore?And there is something that the Council may never understand. That perhaps Revan never fell. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference, more than anyone knew.The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war. Perhaps he became the dark lord out of necessity, to prevent a greater evil."

The Mandalorians were a great threat to the Republic, and Revan was determined not to let the Republic fall. But in being so determined, I also think that Revan, even before he fell to the dark side on Malachor V, made some compromises. He would go to any length to save the Republic. He was willing to make sacrifices, a trait that Canderous would later praise him for.

In short, Revan accepted a "the ends justifies the means"-approach, and however justified he may have been in that regard for the sake of whatever noble and greater purpose, that choice alone will put him at odds with the grander principles of the light side, I think. Revan put his own choices and goals above anything else, and even though those goals may have been benevolent in a greater perspective, it still means that he puts his own desires, plans, and opinions above that of anyone else.

And that is Kreia's point - it doesn't matter what mask Revan wears or what others think of him, because it's still Revan in the end. But with that observation, it naturally follows, that Revan then does not follow or even aspire to the greater goals of the jedi order or even the light side itself - to follow your own motivations above all else is not the way of the light side.

So Revan compromised. As understandable as that might be under the circumstances, it does not make him a great servant of the light, because Revan was trying to save the Republic, not adhere to the greater will of the light side of the Force. If he had to compromise with his own adherence to the light side, then so be it.

That the masters themselves are arrogant and fearful at the same time is immaterial, because Revan is not swayed by their arguments. And just because they may not be true followers of the light themselves, that does not mean that Revan is either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sacred ground to them how? Did they worshipped the ancients?
Actually, I shouldn't have said that, because it gives the wrong impression. My apologies. But Malachor V was forbidden to the Mandalorians. Part IX of the TSL Chronicles mentions the following:

"Malachor V, a planet listed by Mandalorian scholars as "forbidden" to step foot on."

It seems the Mandalorians were forbidden to go there, because they simply realised something dangerous lurked there. Either way, it was forbidden for them to set foot on the planet. This part of the chronicles is more extensive, but I'll get to it later, since it speaks to Revan's corruption on Malachor V.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
It depends that how sensitive an individual is to such an exposure. Details in games can often contradict with details provided by other sources. And if that information is from a higher canon source then it is more accurate.
And what "higher canon source" would that be? TSL is the only source EVER explore Malachor V in detail. That could change, but since the planet canonically ceases to exist at the end of TSL, I doubt it, unless it is explored in pre-KotOR2 material.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
He would be more sensitive to such an exposure and I also mentioned the line "due to unknown reasons". And his body started feeding on those DS energies present in Malachor V, so it would have something to do with his great power in the Force. And why don't you read those lines properly and explain to me that what it actually mean't?

Reasons are unknown but he survived by giving in to the Dark Side and feeding on those DS energies.
Me? Forgive me, but I'm not the one to infer that Revan's corruption on Malachor V says a lot about how powerful he must have been.

And you really leave me no option but to question your train of thought. I mean, I can agree with you, when you say,

Quote:
And his body started feeding on those DS energies present in Malachor V,
But when you then say:

Quote:
so it would have something to do with his great power in the Force.
then I can't follow you. While I agree with the first statement, I fail to see how it can lead you to reach the conclusion you reach in the second statement. Sorry, but I just don't see it. I see no basis for concluding that Revan feeding on dark side energies on Malachor V is proof that he has great power in the Force.

I suppose the most canonic source on this that we have are the TSL chronicles. The following is from Part IX: Darth Revan Rising:

"It is a period of turmoil in the Galaxy. The fierce Mandalorian warrior race begins the MANDALORIAN WAR by viciously and simultaneously attacking three quadrants of Republic space. As the battle rages on, Jedi Master REVAN moves surreptitiously between unknown sectors, scouting for potential strongholds to withstand the attacks. He soon discovers the shadowy Malachor V, a planet listed by Mandalorian scholars as "forbidden" to step foot on. The reason for this soon becomes clear as Revan is almost devoured by primal Sith forces on the world's surface. Revan's will allows him to feed on (and not be consumed by) the power of the dark side. Revan develops an evil but brilliant plan: Using the dark power of Malachor V, he will seduce an army of Jedi, completely loyal to him alone. He will then turn the planet's evil power against the Mandalorian army in battle, luring them to his stronghold and destroying them completely. A stronghold is immediately constructed."

Now, there are several problems here that actually allow us to discard the entire text. For one, it calls Revan a jedi master, and we know that Revan was never a jedi master - he was still a young jedi, when he fell to the dark side. It also says that a stronghold is "immediately constructed" on Malachor V. Since it's fairly obvious, at least to me, that this place is the Trayus Academy, that's not entirely true, given that the academy has been there for centuries if not millennia. After all, the ancient lore of the Sith is what drew Revan's attention in the first place. So it would probably be more accurate to say that the academy was rebuilt and strengthened into a stronghold.

Anyway, I'll grant you that Revan's will saved him from death, because that's basically what it says. I don't see that it says something highly unusual about Revan's powers, though. It just says that he was a very strong-willed person, which I have never disagreed with. In fact, I don't recall anyone here saying otherwise. Will and determination are close concepts, and both are defining traits for Revan. They are not, however, related to the Force as such. The Mandalorians were also strong-willed and determined. Probably less so than Revan, but even so. So you don't need to be force-sensitive at all for that to be true.

And surviving by will, to me, is just a test for Revan - the dark side won't tolerate weakness. It won't abide Revan's light sided ideals, either, so the only way Revan will be allowed to live is to abandon the light side and demonstrate true potential. Both requires strength of will, and in that sense, it is true that Revan survives by will alone - will to survive by willfully sacrificing his own benevolence.

To me, the scene is very much like the scene in "Tales of the Jedi: The Dark Lords of the Sith" (issue 3), when Exar Kun finally abandons the light and embraces the dark side. Nadd's spirit tricks Exar Kun into a valley or gorge, where Nadd unleashes an avalance upon Kun, shattering his body completely. Exar Kun is doomed. The only way he can save his life is to abandon the light and turn to the dark side to save himself. But doing so will cost him his very soul. Both Nadd and Kun know this. Kun even tries to reach out to Master Ood. But it is to no avail. Kun must accept the darkness and reject the light, and it is not a simple choice. Merely saying that he accepts does not do the trick. He must accept it in his heart, and that takes will.

To me it was the same for Revan - he could not survive by accepting the dark side while holding onto some of the light. It took will to abandon the light completely, and Revan demonstrated that. Revan is not entirely consumed, however, because he manages to hold onto his own goals. He won't abandon his goal of saving the Republic from the Mandalorians, but then that is not a goal at odds with the dark side as such, and so Revan can hold onto that without being being killed by the dark side.

As we see, the goal does become twisted, however, since now Revan wants to conquer and rule the Republic himself, rather than merely save it from the Mandalorians. Ok, true, Revan also discovers the existence of the "true Sith" and so may have rationalized that it was necessary to prepare the Republic for that war too, which meant conquering the Republic itself first. But to me that is still the dark side twisting Revan's goals. If Revan's goal was to protect the Republic by destroying the Mandalorians and then the "true Sith", then why didn't he use the Star Forge to create a fleet that he then used to attack the "true Sith"? The only answer I can think of is that the dark side twisted his goals in this regard also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan's powers are not fully known yet but we know that he was a powerful force user and some of his powers are already known;

- Force Lightning (Any powerful Sith Lord knows this)
- Force Lightning Storm (Demonstrated in Lehon)
- Mind Domination (Power to convince many)
- Thought Bomb (Taught to Bane)
- Telekinetic Abilities (Demonstrated in Lehon)
- Drain Knowledge (A person who learned a lot from Malachor V will know this as well)
Force Lightning may not be known to all Sith lords, though I'd agree they are likely to. I'll accept that at least pre-KotOR1 Darth Revan knew Force Storm, since the One clearly mentions it. However, this is simply Force Storm as seen in the games. The only reference you have made to this power is clearly to the games themselves, in which case its only advantage to Force Lightning is that it strikes in a radius around the user instead of an arc in front of him. However, both powers do exactly the same amount of damage. The link you provided is clearly a reference to the power in the games, and its only illustrations are also from the games. One is of Revan using it, yes, but the second actually has Juhani using it.

That being the case, it is clear that Revan's Force Storm power is just the same as we see in the game, where the lightning strike all within a radius of 10 meters of the target enemy (who seems to be whichever enemy is closer).

However, the reason we have discussed this power is because you made this claim:

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan can use this Super Force Lightening Storm ability again and kill Nihilus from a large distance, even before Nihilus will turn to face him.
Force Storm only has a radius of 10 meters in the games, so it would seem obvious to me that your claim is doubtful at best. Your reference to The One only establishes that pre-K1 Darth Revan knew Force Storm, as seen in the games, and used it to kill many of the The One's warriors. Given that my Exile has been able to kill Gerevick and all of his goons with one use of Force Storm as well, this does not turn Revan's power into some super power, since Gerevick and his goons were all powerful thugs as well.

And clearly, Revan would need to get within 10 meters or so of Nihilus to use Force Storm at all, whereas Nihilus can devastate a planet and everybody on it from orbit, or at the very least do it from very great distances. Even if we double Revan's range with this power to 20 meters simply on account of him being Revan, it still won't make a difference. And whatever defenses Revan has don't matter either, because, as Kreia puts it at the precise moment when Nihilus uses his power against her in a cutscene, "there are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense."

Either way - exit Revan. Nihilus wins.

As for the other powers you mention, I'll accept that Revan had Dominate Mind, but I don't see that it is an ability to convince many people. It really is just as a stronger version of Affect Mind, which is itself rather common to jedi and sith. Revan is better at it than most, but I don't think it's what made him a great leader. That would mean that he was a good leader on the basis of some force power and not because he could inspire people to dedicate themselves to his cause, which I've always considered one of Revan's better traits. Basically, you could argue that Revan was a demagogue, because he could inspire people to follow his sometimes outrages plans. To me, he is like historical people like Napoleon, Hitler, or Stalin, whom we have no choice but to accept as great leaders, since they could inspire people to do truly despicable acts. If you give Revan unique force powers to explain this, then you do so at costs to his character, I think. And while Revan was a great jedi, I don't see any evidence him having such a power that would affect many people. Indeed, such a power would be Bastila's Battle Meditation, which Revan clearly does not seem to possess, since Bastila's use of it against the Republic in LS ending of KotOR1 is devastating the republic fleet without Revan being able to do anything about it but entering the Star Forge and stopping her.

That Revan, like almost all jedi and sith, has the power of telekinesis I'll accept without explanation.

I'm more skeptical about the thought bomb, because it would beg the explanation of why he then never used it. However, you're right that canon sources establish that Bane learned it from Revan's holocron, and so Revan must have known of it. Or rather, I was highly skeptical until I read the following: "Formed through an ancient ritual requiring the combined will of many powerful Sith Lords, the thought bomb, when triggered, unleashed the pure destructive energy of the dark side.". I think that explains why Revan didn't use this power - he simply never had enough Sith Lords to create the bomb in the first place, making knowledge of it useless to him, but useful to Bane. And in any event, it is then clear that the use of a Thought Bomb is then highly limited, because lots of Sith Lords need to agree to make one, which is rare enough in any event, and it would have to be created for a specific purpose. To Revan alone, this knowledge would be totally useless, and certainly in a one-on-one fight against Nihilus.

In fact, we could argue that Nihilus is basically an animated Thought Bomb himself, because what it does seems to be exactly what Nihilus does on a grand scale. I mean, a thought-bomb destroys force-sensitives in "the blast radius", which I take to mean not the entire planet. Nihilus, however, can destroy all LIFE on a whole planet in one attack. His powers are clearly far more potent than a mere thought bomb. So I'm not sure it would even work on him.

As for Drain Knowlege, I have no idea why you apply that to Revan. You've provided absolutely no source for Revan having this power, and even though Wookieepedia mentions it, Revan is not mentioned in relation to it any way.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Drain_Knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Then he trained Malak in Sith Arts as well, so Force Moves shown by Malak were also known to him. Also he knew some Defensive moves as well.
What? Malak couldn't have learned anything on his own as a Sith Lord? I think that's a pretty big supposition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
He said that he turned to Dark Side and he actually killed his master and thats why he left the Jedi Order because their was no valid reason for him to stay with the Jedi. Also, Ajunta Pall was one of the founding leaders of the old Sith during the time of the Old Sith Empire centered on Korriban, shortly after the "Hundred-Year Darkness". And he was among the most famous Ancient Sith Lords, as his Tomb was present their in Korriban as a sign of respect.
Him being buried there could simply be as a token of respect for founding the Sith Empire. It does not necessarily mean that he was one of the greatest Sith lords ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
So kreia mis-judged this event.
No, she stated an opinion. One that most sith lords would agree with, btw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Your arguement over Canderous's remarks on Revan is entirely baseless. Because what else would you expect from him to say about Revan? Of-course he will say high about Revan because Revan defeated the Mandalorian forces and ended their threat to the Republic for once and all. But Canderous also said that Revan gave the mandalorians an exceptional challenge that they desired for so many years and thats why he respected Revan so much. And Canderous also clearly said that it did not matters to him that his forces were defeated in the war with The Republic, but he appreciated the challenge given to his forces by Revan because it was he who turned the tide in that war.
Clearly I would expect them to say absolutely nothing else, which was my point. The Mandalorians are dedicated exclusively to a very military-fascist "might is right" kind of thinking. They allied with Exar Kun during the Sith War for the same reason - they saw Exar Kun as the strongest warlord. And, of course, they were wrong, since Exar Kun was eventually defeated too. But the Mandalorians don't accept that - they just continue to hold onto their flawed ideals regardless. Given how often they have lost their wars in the KotOR period, you'd think they would amend their position a little, but no - like lemmings they will follow any perceived great leader over a cliff.

Conclusion: Demonstrate that you're a great warleader, and you'll have Mandalorian brownoses crawling up your rear. That the Mandalorians aren't even able to dislike Revan for the utter destruction he caused to them just shows that they are completely devoid of any true sense of friendship, camaraderie, or sense of loyalty even to their own people. I truly find their inhuman principles detestable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Now he won't say the samething to any other person or would he?
If this person defeated Mandalorians on a grand scale, he would have to, yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
It's an unofficial Star Wars source, which mostly relies on Canon material and you can't just openly Edit information in it, as owners of that Source watch these kinds of changes very clearly and they take actions accordingly. It is not like wikipedia actually.
As much as both I and the owners of Wookieepedia would like for that to be true, I think even the owners would have to disagree with you. Try looking the description of the Exile there

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_exile

You'll note a box at the top saying: "The shield must be deactivated if any edits are to be attempted." Now why is that? Well, if you click the "discussion" button at the top, you'll get to the background of what it says about the Exile. The top message there says, "THE EXILE IS FEMALE. GET OVER IT." Sorry about the upper case, but that's a direct copy+paste. The problem is that so many people are unwilling to accept that the Exile was declared canonically female (and no - I won't go into that discussion here - it's not a related topic to this at all), that they kept editing the page back to saying the Exile was male. And so the owners of Wookieepedia locked the page from editing. If you have information to add about Revan, go to his page, edit it, save, blam - there it is on Wookieepedia. If you find information about the Thought Bomb lacking, then go to its page, edit and save - there you go - it's on Wookieepedia's page.

Now, I'm not saying in any way that Wookieepedia is a bad source of Star Wars in any way. I find it more credible than Wikipedia, and the owners do go to great lengths to keep the information accurate - I have nothing but great respect for them and their hard work. But it lies at the heart of any Wiki, that people writing inaccurate information is a constant and unavoidable risk. Even the owners of Wookieepedia clearly know this.


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Old 12-09-2006, 12:41 PM   #142
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*bows at Jediphile*
Don't make me fall in love with you

Actually, now that you mentioned the submission of Exar Kun to the dark side, I agree it might similar to how Revan "fell". But, enlighten me,

1) Exar Kun's body was already crushed and he was to either accept the dark side or to die. After he made his choice, he got a new found body, granted by the power of the dark side. He then forever belonged to the dark and could never return to the light, even though he attempted to. But if Revan indeed faced Exar's situation, how come he could be redeemed?

2) Kreia said Revan made his sacrifice to fight against a greater evil. Was he referring to the fact that Revan defied the jedi order (sacrifice) and fought in the wars to fight against the mandalorians (the greater evil), or the fact that he submitted to the dark side (sacrifice) to fight against the true sith (the greater evil)?

3) IF Revan indeed fell to the dark side like how Exar Kun did, that means he did not really plan it- he did not actually plan the fall to the dark side. If so, how could Kreia say that Revan did not "fall"? If so, it'd be like:

i) Revan looking for a stronghold to resist the mandalorians
ii) Stumbled on Malachor, experienced something like what happened to Kun
iii) Submitted to the dark side
iv) Thinking, "Now that I've fallen. Great, I can use this place to convert an army of jedi."

At this point, was he thinking of fighting the Mandalorians? Or already the true sith? I just wanna make things clear, if possible.

And back to the question. In this case, Kreia's argument does not stand, for Revan did not plan to fall to the dark side to fight against the enemy; it just happened that he fell, but he'd continue to fight the mandalorians (or the true sith).

Hope you could sort out this mess for me.

Last edited by Evln; 12-09-2006 at 01:15 PM.
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Old 12-09-2006, 01:16 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evln
*bows at Jediphile*
Don't make me fall in love with you


Thanks. I'll try not to.

Though you saying so may suggest something. Someone else has called me "Revan incarnate" in the past. And no, it wasn't The Architect. Though he seems to respect me too. Hmmm, actually that just underscores the point... Now I'm scared...

[looks hastily around for the lure of the dark side]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evln
Actually, now that you mentioned the submission of Exar Kun to the dark side, I agree it might similar to how Revan "fell". But, enlighten me,

1) Exar Kun's body was already crushed and he was to either accept the dark side or to die. After he made his choice, he got a new found body, granted by the power of the dark side. He then forever belonged to the dark and could never return to the light, even though he attempted to. But if Revan indeed faced Exar's situation, how come he could be redeemed?
Exar's body was crushed, but it was healed, when he accepted the dark side. I guess the LS could have done this too, had it not been because this took place on Korriban, where the light side was banished. So Nadd just tricked Kun, so that his body could be destroyed. Then Kun had no choice but to fall, if he wanted to live.

I don't think the same is true for Revan, but then we have very little knowledge of what exactly happened there, but for what I've quoted from the chronicles above. If I had to venture a guess, I would say that Revan's corruption was closer to a mix between Kun's fall and Ulic's. Revan always seemed more like Ulic (who was named after Luke as a sort of anagram) to me. Ulic was injected with sith poison that twisted and corrupted him. I see Revan's fall as a mixture between the two - the power of the dark side was like poison to Revan, and his body was decaying for that reason. But like Exar Kun, then then had to demonstrate his will to abandon the light and embrace the dark side to survive. That's my interpretation, however, based on the known facts though it may be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evln
2) Kreia said Revan made his sacrifice to fight against a greater evil. Was he referring to the fact that Revan defied the jedi order (sacrifice) and fought in the wars to fight against the mandalorians (the greater evil), or the fact that he submitted to the dark side (sacrifice) to fight against the true sith (the greater evil)?
It's a bit unclear, but actually I tend to think it's to fight the Mandalorians, since it seems Revan did not learn about the true Sith until he studied the arcane lore of the Trayus Academy, which must clearly have been *after* he landed on Malachor V and was overcome by the dark side. I don't see how Revan could have had any inkling of the true Sith before that point, so his dedication to destroy the true Sith must have come after his fall to the dark side, I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evln
3) IF Revan indeed fell to the dark side like how Exar Kun did, that means he did not really plan it- he did not actually plan the fall to the dark side. If so, how could Kreia say that Revan did not "fall"? If so, it'd be like:

i) Revan looking for a stronghold to resist the mandalorians
ii) Stumbled on Malachor, experienced something like what happened to Kun
iii) Submitted to the dark side
iv) Thinking, "Now that I've fallen. Great, I can use this place to convert an army of jedi."

At this point, was he thinking of fighting the Mandalorians? Or already the true sith? I just wanna make things clear, if possible.
I think you have to take Kreia's pride concerning Revan into account there. Though Kreia does her best to hide it, she has great difficulty hiding just how pride she is of Revan's achievements. Because being his master, it says something about her too, and that flatters her. Besides, it underscores her teachings, which is essential to her, particularly since they were rejected by the jedi council.

As for why Revan went to Malachor V, I'm not sure. He may have been simply looking for a point from which to strike against the Mandalorians. I don't think he found his way there from Korriban, since Kreia also says, "It is because he remembered what lay buried here - this place, its teachings. It paved the way to Korriban, you know, the remnants here," at the end of the game.

Whether Revan realised what dark powers lurked on Malachor V is uncertain, but I'd like to think he was smarter than to just blunder in without checking first. And though I've spoken out against Revan being an uber-jedi, I do think he was strong enough to sense the danger. Which leads me to believe that Revan sensed it, but was arrogant enough to think that he could overcome any danger. Which is, of course, another flaw - nobody is ever above any danger.

Revan's plan to convert the jedi to sith, IMHO, clearly came after he learned of the true Sith. The dark side twisted him further by showing him a greater threat than the Mandalorians, so that he could be corrupted further and spread his corruption further. Revan thought he was using the dark side as a tool, but you don't make deals with the devils without paying the price. And while fire can be a useful servant, it is a harsh master. And Revan was burned indeed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evln
And back to the question. In this case, Kreia's argument does not stand, for Revan did not plan to fall to the dark side to fight against the enemy; it just happened that he fell, but he'd continue to fight the mandalorians (or the true sith).

Hope you could sort out this mess for me.
Not sure what the real question is, but if you're asking whether Revan is basically a good person, whose goals are twisted by the dark side, or whether he was always a powerhungry megalomaniac, then I don't think we can answer that question at all.

One of the things that both The Architect and I like about TSL is that your LS/DS choice in K1 is perserved in the game and was always meant to be so. Is Revan ulimately good or evil? It's for the player to decide, because it ultimately comes down to how you perceive Revan. He is a hero or a villain depending on how you look at him. And that's the way it should be, too. Revan is the player's character. It would be best if his true nature is indeed decided upon by the eyes that see him.

Not sure if that's much of an answer, though, since it means I don't believe we can say anything about whether Revan was really good or evil in the end. All I can tell is how I see him. And to me Revan was basically a good person, who was a little to certain of his own goals as well as underestimating his own potential, since he became a greater danger to the Republic than he thought he would. He made the same mistake Ulic made by thinking he could use the dark side as a tool without becoming corrupted by it. I also think his guilt over this is what led LS Revan to abandon his friends and leave to fight the true Sith alone. It's an understandable and commendable choice, but I think he made another mistake with it - facing the dark side alone is not the jedi way.


"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia

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Last edited by Jediphile; 12-09-2006 at 02:14 PM. Reason: horribly bad typos too numerous to mention
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Old 12-09-2006, 01:24 PM   #144
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Oops, editted the post just after your last post. Do look back on my last post and try to answer my questions, Revan incarnate.
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Old 12-09-2006, 01:55 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evln
Oops, editted the post just after your last post. Do look back on my last post and try to answer my questions, Revan incarnate.
I hope I managed that to some extent.


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Old 12-09-2006, 02:10 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Jediphile
It's a matter of opinion, then. Don't get me wrong - I agree with you that Revan served a higher and benevolent goal at the time, and I also agree that he was justified in going to war. As Kreia says, "The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war." But note in which context she says that:

Kreia: "You were there at Malachor. Revan's choices were always his own. It was not teaching, or circumstance, or example. It was him. Is that what he was? Or was he always true to himself, no matter what personality he wore?And there is something that the Council may never understand. That perhaps Revan never fell. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference, more than anyone knew.The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war. Perhaps he became the dark lord out of necessity, to prevent a greater evil."

The Mandalorians were a great threat to the Republic, and Revan was determined not to let the Republic fall. But in being so determined, I also think that Revan, even before he fell to the dark side on Malachor V, made some compromises. He would go to any length to save the Republic. He was willing to make sacrifices, a trait that Canderous would later praise him for.

In short, Revan accepted a "the ends justifies the means"-approach, and however justified he may have been in that regard for the sake of whatever noble and greater purpose, that choice alone will put him at odds with the grander principles of the light side, I think. Revan put his own choices and goals above anything else, and even though those goals may have been benevolent in a greater perspective, it still means that he puts his own desires, plans, and opinions above that of anyone else.

And that is Kreia's point - it doesn't matter what mask Revan wears or what others think of him, because it's still Revan in the end. But with that observation, it naturally follows, that Revan then does not follow or even aspire to the greater goals of the jedi order or even the light side itself - to follow your own motivations above all else is not the way of the light side.

So Revan compromised. As understandable as that might be under the circumstances, it does not make him a great servant of the light, because Revan was trying to save the Republic, not adhere to the greater will of the light side of the Force. If he had to compromise with his own adherence to the light side, then so be it.

That the masters themselves are arrogant and fearful at the same time is immaterial, because Revan is not swayed by their arguments. And just because they may not be true followers of the light themselves, that does not mean that Revan is either.
Very good points indeed and I appreciate your effort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Actually, I shouldn't have said that, because it gives the wrong impression. My apologies. But Malachor V was forbidden to the Mandalorians. Part IX of the TSL Chronicles mentions the following:

"Malachor V, a planet listed by Mandalorian scholars as "forbidden" to step foot on."

It seems the Mandalorians were forbidden to go there, because they simply realised something dangerous lurked there. Either way, it was forbidden for them to set foot on the planet. This part of the chronicles is more extensive, but I'll get to it later, since it speaks to Revan's corruption on Malachor V.
Well! this was my point as well. As I have said that Mandalorians avoided this planet and it was due to specific reason and that Malachor was a dangerous planet. This is why it is mentioned in Chronicles that Malachor was a sort of "anathema" to Mandalorians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
And what "higher canon source" would that be? TSL is the only source EVER explore Malachor V in detail. That could change, but since the planet canonically ceases to exist at the end of TSL, I doubt it, unless it is explored in pre-KotOR2 material.
TSL is still a C-Canon source. Though we can wait and see that if any higher canon source explains about Malachor V in details.

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Originally Posted by Jediphile
then I can't follow you. While I agree with the first statement, I fail to see how it can lead you to reach the conclusion you reach in the second statement. Sorry, but I just don't see it. I see no basis for concluding that Revan feeding on dark side energies on Malachor V is proof that he has great power in the Force.
A matter of opinion here. But since their are many other reasons to suggest that he has great power in the Force, so this case is not of much importance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
I suppose the most canonic source on this that we have are the TSL chronicles. The following is from Part IX: Darth Revan Rising:

"It is a period of turmoil in the Galaxy. The fierce Mandalorian warrior race begins the MANDALORIAN WAR by viciously and simultaneously attacking three quadrants of Republic space. As the battle rages on, Jedi Master REVAN moves surreptitiously between unknown sectors, scouting for potential strongholds to withstand the attacks. He soon discovers the shadowy Malachor V, a planet listed by Mandalorian scholars as "forbidden" to step foot on. The reason for this soon becomes clear as Revan is almost devoured by primal Sith forces on the world's surface. Revan's will allows him to feed on (and not be consumed by) the power of the dark side. Revan develops an evil but brilliant plan: Using the dark power of Malachor V, he will seduce an army of Jedi, completely loyal to him alone. He will then turn the planet's evil power against the Mandalorian army in battle, luring them to his stronghold and destroying them completely. A stronghold is immediately constructed."

Now, there are several problems here that actually allow us to discard the entire text. For one, it calls Revan a jedi master, and we know that Revan was never a jedi master - he was still a young jedi, when he fell to the dark side. It also says that a stronghold is "immediately constructed" on Malachor V. Since it's fairly obvious, at least to me, that this place is the Trayus Academy, that's not entirely true, given that the academy has been there for centuries if not millennia. After all, the ancient lore of the Sith is what drew Revan's attention in the first place. So it would probably be more accurate to say that the academy was rebuilt and strengthened into a stronghold.

Anyway, I'll grant you that Revan's will saved him from death, because that's basically what it says. I don't see that it says something highly unusual about Revan's powers, though. It just says that he was a very strong-willed person, which I have never disagreed with. In fact, I don't recall anyone here saying otherwise. Will and determination are close concepts, and both are defining traits for Revan. They are not, however, related to the Force as such. The Mandalorians were also strong-willed and determined. Probably less so than Revan, but even so. So you don't need to be force-sensitive at all for that to be true.

And surviving by will, to me, is just a test for Revan - the dark side won't tolerate weakness. It won't abide Revan's light sided ideals, either, so the only way Revan will be allowed to live is to abandon the light side and demonstrate true potential. Both requires strength of will, and in that sense, it is true that Revan survives by will alone - will to survive by willfully sacrificing his own benevolence.

To me, the scene is very much like the scene in "Tales of the Jedi: The Dark Lords of the Sith" (issue 3), when Exar Kun finally abandons the light and embraces the dark side. Nadd's spirit tricks Exar Kun into a valley or gorge, where Nadd unleashes an avalance upon Kun, shattering his body completely. Exar Kun is doomed. The only way he can save his life is to abandon the light and turn to the dark side to save himself. But doing so will cost him his very soul. Both Nadd and Kun know this. Kun even tries to reach out to Master Ood. But it is to no avail. Kun must accept the darkness and reject the light, and it is not a simple choice. Merely saying that he accepts does not do the trick. He must accept it in his heart, and that takes will.

To me it was the same for Revan - he could not survive by accepting the dark side while holding onto some of the light. It took will to abandon the light completely, and Revan demonstrated that. Revan is not entirely consumed, however, because he manages to hold onto his own goals. He won't abandon his goal of saving the Republic from the Mandalorians, but then that is not a goal at odds with the dark side as such, and so Revan can hold onto that without being being killed by the dark side.

As we see, the goal does become twisted, however, since now Revan wants to conquer and rule the Republic himself, rather than merely save it from the Mandalorians. Ok, true, Revan also discovers the existence of the "true Sith" and so may have rationalized that it was necessary to prepare the Republic for that war too, which meant conquering the Republic itself first. But to me that is still the dark side twisting Revan's goals. If Revan's goal was to protect the Republic by destroying the Mandalorians and then the "true Sith", then why didn't he use the Star Forge to create a fleet that he then used to attack the "true Sith"? The only answer I can think of is that the dark side twisted his goals in this regard also.
Excellent points and I applaud you for your great effort once again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Force Lightning may not be known to all Sith lords, though I'd agree they are likely to. I'll accept that at least pre-KotOR1 Darth Revan knew Force Storm, since the One clearly mentions it. However, this is simply Force Storm as seen in the games. The only reference you have made to this power is clearly to the games themselves, in which case its only advantage to Force Lightning is that it strikes in a radius around the user instead of an arc in front of him. However, both powers do exactly the same amount of damage. The link you provided is clearly a reference to the power in the games, and its only illustrations are also from the games. One is of Revan using it, yes, but the second actually has Juhani using it.
Look! "Game Play mechanics" have limited the effectiveness of Force Powers in the game, so it is not canon. In canonical reality, Force powers are much more effective.

Force Storm is not limited to a certain radius. It can spread in a large area as "sheer intensity" behind it is far greater. The more energy a Sith Lord puts in it, the more it spreads.

In the movies, we have seen that a normal Force Lightning power can hit individuals from many yards away. In "Dooku vs Yoda showdown" in AOTC, we have seen this happen and it is not restricted to a few yards as you mention.

Now a normal Force Lightning can canonically hit its intended target from many yards away, then its much more powerful variant "Force Storm" can spread in an entire area.

And Force Lightning does not forms an Arc. Only in a "Force Storm", several powerful bolts of Lightning hit their intended targets in a Arc form because they hit their targets from above and not below.

And both these powers don't do exactly the same amount of Damage. Even in KOTOR games, these two powers don't do same amout of Damage. Their is an enormous difference in the amounts of energy that is put in a "Force Storm" and that in a "normal Force Lightning". These two powers massively differ from each other in the sheer amount of intensity, damage and target capacity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
That being the case, it is clear that Revan's Force Storm power is just the same as we see in the game, where the lightning strike all within a radius of 10 meters of the target enemy (who seems to be whichever enemy is closer).
No it is not. In the narration, we get to know that his attack killed several individuals along with some beasts as well. But in the K1 game, only 3 arcs form from a Force Storm and that is not enough to kill several targets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Force Storm only has a radius of 10 meters in the games, so it would seem obvious to me that your claim is doubtful at best. Your reference to The One only establishes that pre-K1 Darth Revan knew Force Storm, as seen in the games, and used it to kill many of the The One's warriors. Given that my Exile has been able to kill Gerevick and all of his goons with one use of Force Storm as well, this does not turn Revan's power into some super power, since Gerevick and his goons were all powerful thugs as well.
My claim is not doubtful at all. You can't use "Game Mechanics" as a valid reason to describe that how far this power can spread. And things have improved a lot in KOTOR 2 and so the damage of "Force Storm" in it looks more realistic and effective then before. But even in K2, Force Powers are not as effective as they are in Canonical reality.

As an example: a simple "Force Push" can send a Jedi or Sith flying many yards away and we have seen this in ROTS movie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
And clearly, Revan would need to get within 10 meters or so of Nihilus to use Force Storm at all, whereas Nihilus can devastate a planet and everybody on it from orbit, or at the very least do it from very great distances. Even if we double Revan's range with this power to 20 meters simply on account of him being Revan, it still won't make a difference. And whatever defenses Revan has don't matter either, because, as Kreia puts it at the precise moment when Nihilus uses his power against her in a cutscene, "there are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense."
Their is no reason for Revan to get to 10 meters to use his "Force Storm" on Nihilus. Because in canonical reality a normal Force Lightning power can hit it's intended target from many yards away and we are talking about much more powerful "Force Storm" here.

And "Force Storm" does lot more damage then regular Force Lightning. Because the sheer amount of energy used in it is far greater. Even in games, they have shown this one distinction clearly.

And I have said before that if Nihilus launches his attack first, he wins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Either way - exit Revan. Nihilus wins.
Not if Revan launches his Force attack first. Nihilus was not invincible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
As for the other powers you mention, I'll accept that Revan had Dominate Mind, but I don't see that it is an ability to convince many people. It really is just as a stronger version of Affect Mind, which is itself rather common to jedi and sith. Revan is better at it than most, but I don't think it's what made him a great leader. That would mean that he was a good leader on the basis of some force power and not because he could inspire people to dedicate themselves to his cause, which I've always considered one of Revan's better traits. Basically, you could argue that Revan was a demagogue, because he could inspire people to follow his sometimes outrages plans. To me, he is like historical people like Napoleon, Hitler, or Stalin, whom we have no choice but to accept as great leaders, since they could inspire people to do truly despicable acts. If you give Revan unique force powers to explain this, then you do so at costs to his character, I think. And while Revan was a great jedi, I don't see any evidence him having such a power that would affect many people. Indeed, such a power would be Bastila's Battle Meditation, which Revan clearly does not seem to possess, since Bastila's use of it against the Republic in LS ending of KotOR1 is devastating the republic fleet without Revan being able to do anything about it but entering the Star Forge and stopping her.
Well! I can agree that "Dominate Mind" ability of Revan may not be very effective against many individuals as not all are weak minded fools.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
That Revan, like almost all jedi and sith, has the power of telekinesis I'll accept without explanation.
Good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
I'm more skeptical about the thought bomb, because it would beg the explanation of why he then never used it. However, you're right that canon sources establish that Bane learned it from Revan's holocron, and so Revan must have known of it. Or rather, I was highly skeptical until I read the following: "Formed through an ancient ritual requiring the combined will of many powerful Sith Lords, the thought bomb, when triggered, unleashed the pure destructive energy of the dark side.". I think that explains why Revan didn't use this power - he simply never had enough Sith Lords to create the bomb in the first place, making knowledge of it useless to him, but useful to Bane. And in any event, it is then clear that the use of a Thought Bomb is then highly limited, because lots of Sith Lords need to agree to make one, which is rare enough in any event, and it would have to be created for a specific purpose. To Revan alone, this knowledge would be totally useless, and certainly in a one-on-one fight against Nihilus.
I know and this is why I have not used this power in my case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
In fact, we could argue that Nihilus is basically an animated Thought Bomb himself, because what it does seems to be exactly what Nihilus does on a grand scale. I mean, a thought-bomb destroys force-sensitives in "the blast radius", which I take to mean not the entire planet. Nihilus, however, can destroy all LIFE on a whole planet in one attack. His powers are clearly far more potent than a mere thought bomb. So I'm not sure it would even work on him.
Perhaps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
As for Drain Knowlege, I have no idea why you apply that to Revan. You've provided absolutely no source for Revan having this power, and even though Wookieepedia mentions it, Revan is not mentioned in relation to it any way.
It was a common practise among Sith of his age. Come-on now! even Darth Bandon demonstrated this power, and we are talking about a powerful DLOTS here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
What? Malak couldn't have learned anything on his own as a Sith Lord? I think that's a pretty big supposition.
Malak already was very powerful before betraying Revan and he spent most of his time in making Star Forge effective and finding Bastilla, after he took command of the Sith Forces. Revan had trained him in the arts of Sith and Revan was more knowledgeable then Malak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Him being buried there could simply be as a token of respect for founding the Sith Empire. It does not necessarily mean that he was one of the greatest Sith lords ever.
Since very few Sith Lords have enjoyed the privilege to have Tombs built for them after their death as a major sign of respect, so Ajunta was among them and this surely means something or adds to his credibility. Because Sith would not built such Tombs for normal individuals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
No, she stated an opinion. One that most sith lords would agree with, btw.
Not necessarily if they knew the actual facts about Ajunta.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Clearly I would expect them to say absolutely nothing else, which was my point. The Mandalorians are dedicated exclusively to a very military-fascist "might is right" kind of thinking. They allied with Exar Kun during the Sith War for the same reason - they saw Exar Kun as the strongest warlord. And, of course, they were wrong, since Exar Kun was eventually defeated too. But the Mandalorians don't accept that - they just continue to hold onto their flawed ideals regardless. Given how often they have lost their wars in the KotOR period, you'd think they would amend their position a little, but no - like lemmings they will follow any perceived great leader over a cliff.

Conclusion: Demonstrate that you're a great warleader, and you'll have Mandalorian brownoses crawling up your rear. That the Mandalorians aren't even able to dislike Revan for the utter destruction he caused to them just shows that they are completely devoid of any true sense of friendship, camaraderie, or sense of loyalty even to their own people. I truly find their inhuman principles detestable.
Well! Revan was certainly among those who they respected and that was due to the reason that Revan out-smarted them in tactics, planning and intelligence in the War.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
If this person defeated Mandalorians on a grand scale, he would have to, yes.
Only Revan accomplished this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
As much as both I and the owners of Wookieepedia would like for that to be true, I think even the owners would have to disagree with you. Try looking the description of the Exile there

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_exile

You'll note a box at the top saying: "The shield must be deactivated if any edits are to be attempted." Now why is that? Well, if you click the "discussion" button at the top, you'll get to the background of what it says about the Exile. The top message there says, "THE EXILE IS FEMALE. GET OVER IT." Sorry about the upper case, but that's a direct copy+paste. The problem is that so many people are unwilling to accept that the Exile was declared canonically female (and no - I won't go into that discussion here - it's not a related topic to this at all), that they kept editing the page back to saying the Exile was male. And so the owners of Wookieepedia locked the page from editing. If you have information to add about Revan, go to his page, edit it, save, blam - there it is on Wookieepedia. If you find information about the Thought Bomb lacking, then go to its page, edit and save - there you go - it's on Wookieepedia's page.

Now, I'm not saying in any way that Wookieepedia is a bad source of Star Wars in any way. I find it more credible than Wikipedia, and the owners do go to great lengths to keep the information accurate - I have nothing but great respect for them and their hard work. But it lies at the heart of any Wiki, that people writing inaccurate information is a constant and unavoidable risk. Even the owners of Wookieepedia clearly know this.
Revan's profile is also forbidden to be edited in Wookieepedia and since, information in Wookieepedia regarding Star Wars has never been disappointng and the owners of this source try to keep their information as better and canonical as possible, so we can trust this source. Though! no one is perfect indeed.

And the owners of wookieepedia accept editing based changes if they don't contradict with canon.

Last edited by S_W_LeGenD; 12-09-2006 at 03:19 PM.
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Old 12-09-2006, 02:14 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
I'd say he just brought his ship in orbit around that planet, then he consumed the world killing everything. I'm sure there was no fight between the masters and Nihilus.
He went there himself. I already provided proof for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
You all seem to think, Revan would not be capable of killing the Jedi Masters... But Kreia is?
That sounds like a theory to me... The technique she used was one specific to the post-Jedi Civil War Sith. In any event, I would imagine that there were than three Masters there. That's too a small a number to label a conclave.


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Old 12-09-2006, 02:23 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by jediphile
The dark side twisted him further by showing him a greater threat than the Mandalorians, so that he could be corrupted further and spread his corruption further.
Is this supported by any source or pure speculation?
I'd opt to believe that it's not true, because you'd be suggesting that the dark side actually planned it for Revan that he'd be converting those jedi to his cause. I'd rather believe that Revan for some reason found out about the true sith and devised a way to fight against it, and converting jedi is what he came up with. As from what I recall of Kreia's saying, Revan actually chose Malachor as the battleground for the sole reason of converting the jedi by the dark power of the planet. Of course she could be wrong, but it all just seems too remote to be all planned and intended by the dark side of the force.

And thanks for sharing your thoughts on Revan. I believe he's a good person too. Among all the other reasons you mentioned, I remember Kreia saying Revan having the traits of a jedi forever etched on his soul. Though as deceitful as Kreia is, there's no way she's lying all the time; she only lies when necessary. And as the first and last teacher of Revan I'd say she knows him pretty well, especially with sensitivity of a force-sensitive. Anyway... let's get back on topic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor_Devon
He went there himself. I acutally provided proof for it.
I actually provided a counter-argument in one of my previous posts. As you have not addressed my argument, I thought that you agreed with me on it, but now I take that you have not read it? Post #116 in page 3. Please look at it.

Last edited by Evln; 12-09-2006 at 02:40 PM.
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Old 12-09-2006, 03:10 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
TSL is still a C-Canon source. Though we can wait and see that if any higher canon source explains about Malachor V in details.
Canon is canon. If later canon revises stuff about Malachor V, then we'll have to deal with that, but for now there is no reason to, since TSL's information about it stands. And since the planet is canonically destroyed in the end, it is unlikely we'll ever see revision that will alter events as they are in TSL. There would be no reason to that I can see.

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Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Look! "Game Play mechanics" have limited the effectiveness of Force Powers in the game, so it is not canon. In canonical reality, Force powers are much more effective.
In which case we all get to claim that those powers can canonically do whatever we prefer them to do? Sorry, but no. If a canon source had estalished this, it would be one thing, but since it doesn't, we have little choice but to look at the game mechanics for now. I agree that's not a good source, but it better than nothing. It's also better than blindly accepting anyone's opinion of what the power might do, whether that opinion be yours or mine or whomever's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Force Storm is not limited to a certain radius. It can spread in a large area as "sheer intensity" behind it is far great. The more energy a Sith Lord puts in it, the more it spreads.
It is in the game rules. But fine, let's say we extend. How much then? Even if we take it up to 100 meters, ten times what it is in the rules, it still pales horribly next to Nihilus' draining powers. So it's a moot point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
In the movies, we have seen that a normal Force Lightning can hit individuals from many yards back. In Dooku vs Yoda showdown, we have seen this happen and it is not restricted to a few yards as you mention.
How far then? Fine, I'll accept 20 or 30 meters, but I don't think we see anything beyond that in any of the movies, comic books, or whatever. And naturally, it still wouldn't help Revan against Nihilus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Now a normal Force Lightning can canonically hit its intended target from many yards away, then its much more powerful variant "Force Storm" can spread in an entire area.
No basis for that conclusion, so I'll have to disagree. It's almost as if you're saying that because we can't be sure, you surely must be right in your assumption. What's to prevent me from saying the same about my conclusions? What's to stop anyone else, for that matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
And Force Lightning does not forms an Arc. Only in a "Force Storm", several bolts of Lightning hit their intended targets in a Arc form because they hit their targets from above and not below.
Funny - my force lightning attacks could always hit several individuals if I positioned my character carefully... Shock was another matter, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
And both these powers don't do exactly the same amount of Damage. Even in KOTOR games, these two powers don't do same amout of Damage. Their is an enormous difference in the amounts of energy that is put in a Force Storm and that in a normal Force Lightning. These two powers massively differ from each other in the sheer amount of intensity, damage and target capacity.
Actually, they both inflict exactly the same amount of damage - 1d6 per level up to a certain maximum. But I do agree that it might be difficult to see, since:

1. You naturally progress to higher levels, so learning a new power at a new level would make it seem more potent. This is due to the increased character level, however, not because the power itself does greater damage.

2. Since higher progressions of some abilities, such as Shock -> Force Lighning -> Force Storm cannot be learned until certain levels, at which point they utterly replace the "lower" power, it gives the impression that the new power does more damage for the reasons given in point 1 above and because it strikes more people.

Ruleswise, however, Shock, Force Lightning, and Force Storm all deal out the exact same amount of damage. The higher powers are just more effective because they affect more enemies. Any actually increased damage comes from a higher experience level of the character alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
No it is not. In the narration, we get to know that his attack killed several individuals along with some beats as well. But in the game, only 3 arcs form from a Force Storm and that is not enough to kill several targets.
Nope - I've been able to hit 20+ Hssiss in the tomb on Korriban with my Exile, so that is not accurate. In fact, it could 30+ Hssiss or beyond - I'm just not sure. But they were many indeed. And this was without cheating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
My claim is not doubtful at all. You can't use "Game Mechanics" as a valid reason to describe that how far this power can spread. And things have improved a lot in KOTOR 2 and so did the damage of Force Storm in it looks more realistic and effective then before. But even in K2, Force Powers are not as effective as they are in Canonical reality.
Even if I were to accept that, that doesn't mean that canonical force powers are limitless. I might accept that they are more powerful canonically, but I won't accept that they can do whatever you or anyone else would prefer them to do simply on the basis that their limits are not established outside the game mechanics. That they are not is no free pass for anyone to claim whatever they want to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
As an example: a simple "Force Push" can send a Jedi or Sith flying many yards away and we have seen this in ROTS movie.
Yes, but we've seen that in the games too. At least, I have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Their is no reason for Revan to get to 10 meters to use his Force Storm on Nihilus. Because in canonical reality a normal Force Lightning power can hit its intended target from many yards away and we are talking about much more powerful "Force Storm" here.

And Force Storm does lot more damage then regular Force Lightning. Because the sheer amount of energy used in it is far greater. Even in games, they have shown this one distinction clearly.
I'm sorry, but you're mistaken about how these powers work in the game. And the only source you have given for the Force Storm power is a reference to how it exists in the games. That gives you no basis for claiming how it might work in "canonical reality".

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
It was a common practise among Sith of his age. Come on! man! Even Darth Bandon demonstrated this power, and we are talking about a DLOTS here.
Where did Bandon demonstrate this? And as you have explained so well yourself, not every sith lord has every sith power. And all instances of Drain Knowledge mentioned on Wookieepedia are movie era or later. So for all we know, the power may not even have been known before then.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Drain_Knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Since very few Sith Lords had the privilege to have Tombs built for them after their death as a major sign of respect, so Ajunta was among them and this means something or adds to his credibility.
He was one of the founders of the empire. That would assure him a place. That does not make him one of the most powerful sith lords, however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Only Revan did this.
Actually, Mandalore also greatly respects the Exile. Indeed, he expresses respect for Bao-Dur's Mass Shadow Generator and the destruction it wrought at Malachor V. It speaks volumes that Mandalore can't even feel any disgust or regret for all those dead Mandalorians who were killed by Bao-Dur's technological terror. Even Bao-Dur shows greater compassion for those dead Mandalorians than any of the Mandalorians do. Yuck!

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan's profile is also forbidden to be edited in Wookieepedia and since, information in it regarding Star Wars has never been disappointng and the owners of this source try to keep their information as better and canonical as possible, so we can trust them.

And the owners of wookieepedia accept editing based changes if they don't contradict with canon.
I didn't realise Revan's page was also locked. But then that just underscores my point.


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Old 12-09-2006, 03:17 PM   #150
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*bows to Jediphile*

Jeez....you couldn't have said it better, my friend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Look! "Game Play" mechanics have limited the effectiveness of Force Powers in the game, so it is not canon. In canonical reality, Force powers are much more effective.

Force Storm is not limited to a certain radius. It can spread in a large area as "sheer intensity" behind it matters the most. The more energy a Sith Lord puts in it, the more it spreads.

In the movies, we have seen that a normal Force Lightning can hit individuals from many yards back. In Dooku vs Yoda showdown, we have seen this happen and it is not restricted to a few yards as you mention.

Now a normal Force Lightning can canonically hit its intended target from many yards away, then its much more powerful variant "Force Storm" can spread in an entire area.

And Force Lightning does not forms an arc. Only in a Force Storm, several bolts of Lightning hit their intended targets in a arc form because they hit their targets from above and not below.

And both these powers don't do exactly the same amount of Damage. Even in KOTOR games, these two powers don't do same amout of Damage. Their is an enormous difference in the amounts of energy that is put in a Force Storm and that in a normal Force Lightning. These two powers massively differ from each other in sheer amount of intensity, damage and target capacity.
It seems that you're the one using game mechanics. You haven't shown anyone a source that says Revan used a power that was much greater than any other type of lightning. As Jediphile stated, your own link to Force Storm was clearly a reference to the game, and only had illustrations from the game. If you don't want to use gameplay mechanics and you want to prove your claim of how Force Storm is more powerful than Lightning, then provide a source that talks about it's use other than use in KotOR.

And the explanation of the sights that The One saw are not good either. As I and others have said, he had never seen the Force in action before and he was in total awe.


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Old 12-09-2006, 03:29 PM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evln
Is this supported by any source or pure speculation?
Conjecture on my part entirely.

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Originally Posted by Evln
I'd opt to believe that it's not true, because you'd be suggesting that the dark side actually planned it for Revan that he'd be converting those jedi to his cause. I'd rather believe that Revan for some reason found out about the true sith and devised a way to fight against it, and converting jedi is what he came up with. As from what I recall of Kreia's saying, Revan actually chose Malachor as the battleground for the sole reason of converting the jedi by the dark power of the planet. Of course she could be wrong, but it all just seems too remote to be all planned and intended by the dark side of the force.
Well, I don't mean to give the impression that Revan was a slave to the dark side of the Force, because I don't believe that to be accurate. But what he did was decidedly malevolent and manipulative to an unholy degree. It was Revan's choice, but I do see influence of the dark side in it, because otherwise it would have meant that there was no other way to fight the "true Sith" than to convert all those jedi, and if that is true, then the Republic is now doomed, since Revan lost his dark army in the Jedi Civil War. The really nasty irony is that the masters seem to have sensed some greater evil behidn the Mandalorians, but once Revan that greater evil, there was no way he could go back to the masters and ally with them, since he had to fall to the dark side himself to find out what this greater evil was. And that fall, I think, prevented him from seeing any other choice than to convert the jedi. Had he not fallen, the alternative would have been obvious, I think - to return to the jedi council and make an ulimate alliance to stand against the "true Sith". But because Revan had already fallen, it was not an option to him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evln
And thanks for sharing your thoughts on Revan. I believe he's a good person too. Among all the other reasons you mentioned, I remember Kreia saying Revan having the traits of a jedi forever etched on his soul. Though as deceitful as Kreia is, there's no way she's lying all the time; she only lies when necessary. And as the first and last teacher of Revan I'd say she knows him pretty well, especially with sensitivity of a force-sensitive.
The really annoying thing about Kreia is that she never tells a complete truth or lie. All her truths are 60% lies, and her lies are all 50% truth.

A lot of people claim that Kreia is always lying, but it's not true. In fact, most of what she says is quite true... "from a certain point of view," as Obi-Wan would say

Suffice it to say that if Kreia told me water was wet, I would check it myself and ask at least three other people to confirm it before I believed her


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Old 12-09-2006, 04:16 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Canon is canon. If later canon revises stuff about Malachor V, then we'll have to deal with that, but for now there is no reason to, since TSL's information about it stands. And since the planet is canonically destroyed in the end, it is unlikely we'll ever see revision that will alter events as they are in TSL. There would be no reason to that I can see.
Fine! and I have not said that I disagree with TSL's information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
In which case we all get to claim that those powers can canonically do whatever we prefer them to do? Sorry, but no. If a canon source had estalished this, it would be one thing, but since it doesn't, we have little choice but to look at the game mechanics for now. I agree that's not a good source, but it better than nothing. It's also better than blindly accepting anyone's opinion of what the power might do, whether that opinion be yours or mine or whomever's.
WTH?

Force Powers do what they are intended to. You just launch and see the results and results seen in the movies are far better then what we see in the games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
It is in the game rules. But fine, let's say we extend. How much then? Even if we take it up to 100 meters, ten times what it is in the rules, it still pales horribly next to Nihilus' draining powers. So it's a moot point.
100 meters is a very safe distance to begin with. And if Revan launches his "Force Storm" from such a far away distance and this is before Nihilus does something and gets hit by it, then Nihilus will be destroyed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
How far then? Fine, I'll accept 20 or 30 meters, but I don't think we see anything beyond that in any of the movies, comic books, or whatever. And naturally, it still wouldn't help Revan against Nihilus.
Fine! still it is good enough distance to launch an attack and surprise an enemy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
No basis for that conclusion, so I'll have to disagree. It's almost as if you're saying that because we can't be sure, you surely must be right in your assumption. What's to prevent me from saying the same about my conclusions? What's to stop anyone else, for that matter?
Have you seen the movies? if yes then you would have noticed that Dooku launched his Lightning attack on Yoda from a very safe distance. The evidence is clear enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Funny - my force lightning attacks could always hit several individuals if I positioned my character carefully... Shock was another matter, though.
What does your character's game based Force Lightning have to do with canonical reality? And if you haven't noticed yet, their is an advanced form of Force Lightning, which does the samething as you have mentioned here. This is actually called "Chain Lightning".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Actually, they both inflict exactly the same amount of damage - 1d6 per level up to a certain maximum. But I do agree that it might be difficult to see, since:

1. You naturally progress to higher levels, so learning a new power at a new level would make it seem more potent. This is due to the increased character level, however, not because the power itself does greater damage.

2. Since higher progressions of some abilities, such as Shock -> Force Lighning -> Force Storm cannot be learned until certain levels, at which point they utterly replace the "lower" power, it gives the impression that the new power does more damage for the reasons given in point 1 above and because it strikes more people.

Ruleswise, however, Shock, Force Lightning, and Force Storm all deal out the exact same amount of damage. The higher powers are just more effective because they affect more enemies. Any actually increased damage comes from a higher experience level of the character alone.
Using "Game Mechanics" as a source of explanation? Oh Boy?

Here is a real example:

Sidious's Chain Lightning was more deadly and effective then Dooku's Force Lightning. In AOTC Movie, Yoda blocked Dooku's Force Lightning with his bare hands. But in ROTS movie, when same Yoda faced Sidious, Sidious's Lightning attack blew the damn Light Saber out of Yoda's hand and Yoda could not successfully counter this attack with his bare hands and fall apart. Thus the level of effectiveness is clearly different.

And effectiveness of the Force Powers increases in the game due to your better attributes and not due to your levels of experience. The damage of any Force Power remains the same, regardless of how much you "Level-Up".

And by using the logic of the game, both Count Dooku and Sidious will do the same amount of damage if they use the same Lightning power. So "Game Mechanics" are not true and cannot be used in the proper debates.

And canonically, it depends on how strong your defensive abilities are if you have to successfully counter a Force Attack. Experience is irrelevant in determining the power behind a Force Attack. This is actually more related with your "mastery in the force".

Sidious's mastery in the Force was greater then that of Dooku's and that's why his Force attacks were more effective. And Sidious's Lightning attack can't be blocked by a Light Saber as an indication.

And Mace's case is different because his Vaapad ability managed to deflect Sidious's attack back at Sidious, which resulted in Sidious getting scarred.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Nope - I've been able to hit 20+ Hssiss in the tomb on Korriban with my Exile, so that is not accurate. In fact, it could 30+ Hssiss or beyond - I'm just not sure. But they were many indeed. And this was without cheating.
This problem is related to "Game Mechanics".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Even if I were to accept that, that doesn't mean that canonical force powers are limitless. I might accept that they are more powerful canonically, but I won't accept that they can do whatever you or anyone else would prefer them to do simply on the basis that their limits are not established outside the game mechanics. That they are not is no free pass for anyone to claim whatever they want to.
Some Canonical Force Powers are not limitless but some are actually. And Force Lightning in reality (if not successfully blocked), causes an individual to loose his balance and that victim can't do ****.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Yes, but we've seen that in the games too. At least, I have.
In game, the characters don't fall far away during gameplay. In movies, a Force Push can send an individual flying far away from the attacker's position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
I'm sorry, but you're mistaken about how these powers work in the game. And the only source you have given for the Force Storm power is a reference to how it exists in the games. That gives you no basis for claiming how it might work in "canonical reality".
You should read the text actually. And Novels show that Chain Lightning and Force Storm cover more area and are more effective. The point is that these two advanced forms of Lightning will kill an individual more quickly then a normal Force Lightning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Where did Bandon demonstrate this? And as you have explained so well yourself, not every sith lord has every sith power. And all instances of Drain Knowledge mentioned on Wookieepedia are movie era or later. So for all we know, the power may not even have been known before then.
Try KOTOR 1 again and you will know. He uses "Force Drain" on you frequently.

Drain Knowledge and "Force Drain" ability are a same thing in terms of meaning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
He was one of the founders of the empire. That would assure him a place. That does not make him one of the most powerful sith lords, however.
And was also powerful. Check his brief as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Actually, Mandalore also greatly respects the Exile. Indeed, he expresses respect for Bao-Dur's Mass Shadow Generator and the destruction it wrought at Malachor V. It speaks volumes that Mandalore can't even feel any disgust or regret for all those dead Mandalorians who were killed by Bao-Dur's technological terror. Even Bao-Dur shows greater compassion for those dead Mandalorians than any of the Mandalorians do. Yuck!
Did I said that Canderous did not respected "The Exile"? Of-course! he aided Exile for a reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
I didn't realise Revan's page was also locked. But then that just underscores my point.
Right.

Last edited by S_W_LeGenD; 12-09-2006 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 12-09-2006, 04:52 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sidious's mastery in the Force was greater then that of Dooku's and that's why his Force attacks were more effective. And Sidious's Lightning attack can't be blocked by a Light Saber as an indication.
Can't be blocked eh? Well explain how Obi-Wan blocked Dooku's lightning attack in AOTC. He didn't use Vaapad style, so it's obviously not limited to the stance of the victim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sidious's Chain Lightning was more deadly and effective then Dooku's Force Lightning. In AOTC Movie, Yoda blocked Dooku's Force Lightning with his bare hands. But in ROTS movie, when same Yoda faced Sidious, Sidious's Lightning attack blew the damn Light Saber out of Yoda's hand and Yoda could not stop this attack with his bare hands. Thus the level of effectiveness is clearly different.
Did you notice how much closer Yoda is to Sidious than he is to Dooku? I'm thinking Sidious caught him by surprise, and being that close the force of it knocked his lightsaber out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Try KOTOR 1 again and you will know. He uses "Force Drain" on you frequently.

Drain Knowledge and "Force Drain" ability are a same thing in terms of meaning.
Wrong. Force Drain in KotOR is not the same thing as Drain Knowledge. In KotOR, it's called Drain Life. Bandon uses Death Field, the more advanced form of Drain Life, but like Force Storm, it does no more damage to your enemies, it just takes life away from everyone around you.


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Old 12-09-2006, 05:09 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
Can't be blocked eh? Well explain how Obi-Wan blocked Dooku's lightning attack in AOTC. He didn't use Vaapad style, so it's obviously not limited to the stance of the victim.
Dooku's mastery in Lightning is not that great and was surely not on par with that of Sidious. Sidious would have pawned Obi-Wan with his Lightning attack as even Yoda failed to block his Lightning attack in his ROTS fight. And Sidious can perform chain Lightning as well but Dooku can't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
Did you notice how much closer Yoda is to Sidious than he is to Dooku? I'm thinking Sidious caught him by surprise, and being that close the force of it knocked his lightsaber out.
Yoda can perform "Force Deflect" and in case it fails, then he can absorb DS attacks as well. And distance is irrelevant here. Defensive abilities can be effective even if you are close to the attacker's position. And Yoda was caught in the surprise early in the fight when he was hit by "Force Shock".

Sidious blew Yoda's Light Saber out from his hand with his Lightning attack later-on in the fight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
Wrong. Force Drain in KotOR is not the same thing as Drain Knowledge. In KotOR, it's called Drain Life. Bandon uses Death Field, the more advanced form of Drain Life, but like Force Storm, it does no more damage to your enemies, it just takes life away from everyone around you.
Ok! Lets call it Drain Life.
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Old 12-09-2006, 05:30 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Force Powers do what they are intended to. You just launch and see the results and results seen in the movies are far better then what we see in the games.
Since the powers in the games are made to mirror those in the movies, that does not seem very persuasive to me. They might be more effective outside the games, but not by much really. If they were, the games would reflect it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
100 meters is a very safe distance to begin with. And if Revan launches his "Force Storm" from such a far away distance and this is before Nihilus does something and gets hit by it, then Nihilus will be destroyed.
Nihilus can lauch his attack from the distance of an orbit around a planet, which would typically be around 35,000 km above the surface of an Earth-sized planet. Far longer than any application of Force Storm in any event.

Besides, there is nothing to suggest that Nihilus can't resist force powers himself. Yoda clearly is able to do so, and while we can only speculate on Nihilus' powers in this regard, it is just as reasonable for me to speculate that he can resist this power as it is for you to assume that Revan's Force Storm has a far greater range and power-level than it has in the game mechanics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Have you seen the movies? if yes then you would have noticed that Dooku launched his Lightning attack on Yoda from a very safe distance. The evidence is clear enough.
I have both seen all the movies in the cinema several times and own them all on dvd. Clearly Yoda and Dooku were close enough to have a conversation, so clearly any gun has a longer range, which is not what I would call "safe distance".

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
What does your character's game based Force Lightning have to do with canonical reality? And if you haven't noticed yet, their is an advanced form of Force Lightning, which does the samething as you have mentioned here. This is actually called "Chain Lightning".

Using "Game Mechanics" as a source of explanation? Oh Boy?
Chain Lightning seems to be just a variant of how Force Lightning strikes, which doesn't suggest that it does more damage or has longer reach in any event. And as I have said, using game mechanics to explain things is still better than for any of us to jump to whatever baseless conclusions we want to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Here is a real example:

Sidious's Chain Lightning was more deadly and effective then Dooku's Force Lightning. In AOTC Movie, Yoda blocked Dooku's Force Lightning with his bare hands. But in ROTS movie, when same Yoda faced Sidious, Sidious's Lightning attack blew the damn Light Saber out of Yoda's hand and Yoda could not counter this attack with his bare hands. Thus the level of effectiveness is clearly different.
Ah, but Yoda DID block Sidious' attack in ROTS. He did that when they were fighting in the senate hall. But you're right that he failed to block it in Palpatine's personal chambers. Now why is that? Could it be because Palpatine simply used his lightning attack before Yoda could put up his defenses? I suspect as much. In either way, Yoda was never surprised by Dooku's attack, so I doubt this the situation is quite as conclusive as you seem to think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
And effectiveness of the Force Powers increases in the game due to your better attributes and not due to your levels of experience. The damage of any Force Power remains the same, regardless of how much you "Level-Up".
No, better attributes makes it more difficult for opponents to resist taking full damage from your lightning attack. When someone uses a force power, the victim usually gets a "saving throw" to avoid the full effect of the power. In the case of any of the Lightning attacks, making this saving throw means that the damage is cut to half. But if the force-user has good attributes, then the saving throw becomes more difficult to make, and so the attack will tend to inflict more damage on account of more victims failing that saving throw. The damage inflicted by ligtning attacks, however, is determined by the force-user's experience level alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
And by using the logic of the game, both Count Dooku and Sidious will do the same amount of damage if they use the same Lightning power. So "Game Mechanics" are not true and cannot be used in the proper debates.
We don't know that they didn't. But I do agree that the D20 rules are stupid and frequently lead to silly assumptions. Going by those rules, there is no way Obi-Wan could ever have defeated Darth Maul, when Maul had just killed Qui-Gon, who was clearly far more experienced Obi-Wan and probably Maul too. Let alone that there is no way Luke could ever have won a fight against Vader AND Palpatine under those rules. I don't like the D20 rules. I have said so before, I will say it again. But however much I dislike them, they are still better than going by completely baseless speculation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
And canonically, it depends on how strong your defensive abilities are if you have to successfully counter a Force Attack. Experience is irrelevant in determining the power behind a Force Attack. This is actually more related with your "mastery in the force".

Sidious's mastery in the Force was greater then that of Dooku's and that's why his Force attacks were more effective. And Sidious's Lightning attack can't be blocked by a Light Saber as an indication.

And Mace's case is different because his Vaapad ability managed to deflect Sidious's attack back at Sidious, which resulted in Sidious getting scarred.
So it IS possible to counter Sidious lightning attacks after all? You know, Palpatine only ever uses his force powers against three people during all the movies. One could resist it (Yoda), one could deflect it (Windu), and one was defenseless because he was not even a full jedi knight and had even thrown his lightsaber away (Luke). I don't think that gives us a particularly good basis for concluding how unstoppable Palpatine's force lightning really is...

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
This problem is related to "Game Mechanics".
You say that as if "game mechanics" is some magic wand you can wave and then discard the entire argument. I don't entirely agree with you on that. Though game mechanics are not conclusive, neither is canon, and game mechanics always attempt to mirror canon in Star Wars. That makes it at least relevant to consider why the game mechanics have been written the way they have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Some Canonical Force Powers are not limitless but some are actually. And Force Lightning in reality (if not successfully blocked), causes an individual to loose his balance and that victim can't do ****.
So, in canon you alone gets to decide what those limits are, if Lucas hasn't defined them for you already? Sorry, but that's not very compelling either...

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
In game, the characters don't fall far away during gameplay. In movies, a Force Push can send an individual flying far away from the attacker's position.
You really should try to play a very high leveled Exile using Force Push on someone in an open field or similar. It's true they don't fly far in the Trayus Academy, but what... Did you expect them crash through the walls?

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
You should read the text actually. And Novels show that Chain Lightning and Force Storm cover more area and are more effective. The point is that these two advanced forms of Lightning will kill an individual more quickly then a normal Force Lightning.
The movies themselves are not particularly conclusive on this matter. If you accept that Palpatine is the strongest user of force lightning ever, then how do you explain that he zaps Luke again, and again, and again, and Luke STILL doesn't die. If you were right, Luke should have been dead after one blast, but he isn't. You could claim that he's toying with Luke, but it's obvious to me that after saying, "and now, jedi, you will die" he isn't holding back anything and giving Luke the full dose. He certainly is once Vader grabs him, and clearly Vader is still able to throw Palpatine to his death anyway. Now, if Palpatine is the most powerful user of force lightning ever, then how can you EVER claim that Revan's lightning power could instantly kill Nihilus in one attack?!? Sorry, but that really doesn't add up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Try KOTOR 1 again and you will know. He uses "Force Drain" on you frequently.

Drain Knowledge and "Force Drain" ability are a same thing in terms of meaning.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Drain_Knowledge
and
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_Drain

Wookieepedia would seem to disagree with you. So do I, btw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Did I said that Canderous did not respected "The Exile"? Of-course! he aided Exile for a reason.
You claimed only Revan earned the respect of the Mandalorians. Or at least you managed to imply it. But the Exile and Bao-Dur earned respect too, though for different reasons than Revan.

And actually, the Mandalorians' respect for Revan would only mirror the respect they had for Exar Kun. The Mandalorians actually joined Exar Kun in his crusade. They never did that for Revan, when he turned against the jedi.


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Old 12-09-2006, 05:32 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
Wrong. Force Drain in KotOR is not the same thing as Drain Knowledge. In KotOR, it's called Drain Life. Bandon uses Death Field, the more advanced form of Drain Life, but like Force Storm, it does no more damage to your enemies, it just takes life away from everyone around you.
I know your argument, and I read Jediphile's, and I totally understand the explantion based on the game mechanics. Right, like, in the game, Drain life and Death Field inflict identical amount of damage on each single person, but the latter does that to multiple persons. But in reality, if the force used to inflict damage to multiple persons is focused on one single person, it'd seem more logical to think that More damage would be done. Thus, the ability to do Death Field may mean the ability to inflict gruesomer damage on one single person. I guess it's not too remote to come up with this suggestion.

Of course, we don't actually know how the Force works. All that we can base on is in-game mechanics. But as much as I agree that we shouldn't imagine the force to work in whatever extent we want it to, I think we should not solely rely on the game mechanics to draw conclusions of how the force actually works in reality. That's why I came up with the suggestion I gave in the above paragraph.
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Old 12-09-2006, 06:59 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by Jediphile
Since the powers in the games are made to mirror those in the movies, that does not seem very persuasive to me. They might be more effective outside the games, but not by much really. If they were, the games would reflect it.
Powers in the games do mirror that of in the movies but they are not as effective. And I think that in KOTOR 3, they should make gameplay powers as close to canonical reality as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Nihilus can lauch his attack from the distance of an orbit around a planet, which would typically be around 35,000 km above the surface of an Earth-sized planet. Far longer than any application of Force Storm in any event.
I agree! But he had proper time to prepare for such an event and the Jedi never knew that what was coming. And in a one-on-one situation, time is short and you have to react very fast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Besides, there is nothing to suggest that Nihilus can't resist force powers himself. Yoda clearly is able to do so, and while we can only speculate on Nihilus' powers in this regard, it is just as reasonable for me to speculate that he can resist this power as it is for you to assume that Revan's Force Storm has a far greater range and power-level than it has in the game mechanics.
Of-course! Nihilus would have had his own defensive abilties but what are they exactly?

And Force Storm can't be deflected like Force Lightning because it's style of hitting an opponent is different and their are many Lightning bolts in it coming straight on your head with massive intensity. And "Force Immunity" is not canon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
I have both seen all the movies in the cinema several times and own them all on dvd. Clearly Yoda and Dooku were close enough to have a conversation, so clearly any gun has a longer range, which is not what I would call "safe distance".
They were still positioned many yards away from each other. And people can talk loud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Chain Lightning seems to be just a variant of how Force Lightning strikes, which doesn't suggest that it does more damage or has longer reach in any event. And as I have said, using game mechanics to explain things is still better than for any of us to jump to whatever baseless conclusions we want to.
Really? check this then: http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ouspwnsnx0.jpg (this image is from a Canon Novel of Sidious)

Does normal Lightning comes even close to intensity of this attack?

And Game Mechanics are not good for proper explanation of Force Powers because they don't mirror canonical damage. And some gameplay powers are not even canon like "Force Immunity" and "Force Heal". You don't heal your physical wounds with the Force and "Force Immunity" has never been demonstrated in canon materials. And "Force Deflect" is true canon defensive power and it is performed through hands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Ah, but Yoda DID block Sidious' attack in ROTS. He did that when they were fighting in the senate hall. But you're right that he failed to block it in Palpatine's personal chambers. Now why is that? Could it be because Palpatine simply used his lightning attack before Yoda could put up his defenses? I suspect as much. In either way, Yoda was never surprised by Dooku's attack, so I doubt this the situation is quite as conclusive as you seem to think.
He tried to block it and look at his face expressions then. And he finally fell apart due to the sheer intensity behind Sidious's Lightining, so Yoda's defense was not successful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
No, better attributes makes it more difficult for opponents to resist taking full damage from your lightning attack. When someone uses a force power, the victim usually gets a "saving throw" to avoid the full effect of the power. In the case of any of the Lightning attacks, making this saving throw means that the damage is cut to half. But if the force-user has good attributes, then the saving throw becomes more difficult to make, and so the attack will tend to inflict more damage on account of more victims failing that saving throw. The damage inflicted by ligtning attacks, however, is determined by the force-user's experience level alone.
I have not noticed that Force powers become more effective with "Leveling-Up". They do not actually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
We don't know that they didn't. But I do agree that the D20 rules are stupid and frequently lead to silly assumptions. Going by those rules, there is no way Obi-Wan could ever have defeated Darth Maul, when Maul had just killed Qui-Gon, who was clearly far more experienced Obi-Wan and probably Maul too. Let alone that there is no way Luke could ever have won a fight against Vader AND Palpatine under those rules. I don't like the D20 rules. I have said so before, I will say it again. But however much I dislike them, they are still better than going by completely baseless speculation.
Obi-Wan won through a surprising move!

And "Gameplay Mechanics" are also not good way to explain the effectiveness of Force Powers because they also involve D20 rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
So it IS possible to counter Sidious lightning attacks after all? You know, Palpatine only ever uses his force powers against three people during all the movies. One could resist it (Yoda), one could deflect it (Windu), and one was defenseless because he was not even a full jedi knight and had even thrown his lightsaber away (Luke). I don't think that gives us a particularly good basis for concluding how unstoppable Palpatine's force lightning really is...
- Yoda failed to successfully deflect it. I have explained the reason above.
- Mace's Vaapad gave him the advantage and others don't have this ability.
- Luke was not powerful enough to block Sidious's Lightning attack even with his Light Saber, because even Yoda could not do this.

And Lightning kills you slowly but painfully because it works in a continuous fashion. But in KOTOR games, Lightning is not continuous, which is an additional reason that Lightning is not accurately mirrored in the games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
You say that as if "game mechanics" is some magic wand you can wave and then discard the entire argument. I don't entirely agree with you on that. Though game mechanics are not conclusive, neither is canon, and game mechanics always attempt to mirror canon in Star Wars. That makes it at least relevant to consider why the game mechanics have been written the way they have.
No! "Game Mechanics" only follow certain rules that do not apply properly in canonical reality of Star Wars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
So, in canon you alone gets to decide what those limits are, if Lucas hasn't defined them for you already? Sorry, but that's not very compelling either...
You can take an example of a "Force Storm" power demonstrated by Sidious in Dark Empire EU based event and that power was limitless and it destroyed an entire fleet. So my point stands that not all canon Force Powers are limited.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
You really should try to play a very high leveled Exile using Force Push on someone in an open field or similar. It's true they don't fly far in the Trayus Academy, but what... Did you expect them crash through the walls?
I will try it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
The movies themselves are not particularly conclusive on this matter. If you accept that Palpatine is the strongest user of force lightning ever, then how do you explain that he zaps Luke again, and again, and again, and Luke STILL doesn't die. If you were right, Luke should have been dead after one blast, but he isn't. You could claim that he's toying with Luke, but it's obvious to me that after saying, "and now, jedi, you will die" he isn't holding back anything and giving Luke the full dose. He certainly is once Vader grabs him, and clearly Vader is still able to throw Palpatine to his death anyway. Now, if Palpatine is the most powerful user of force lightning ever, then how can you EVER claim that Revan's lightning power could instantly kill Nihilus in one attack?!? Sorry, but that really doesn't add up.
Force Lightning in canonical reality kills slowly but painfully. Although, its more advanced variant like "Force Storm" kills more quickly because several bolts of Lightning hits an individual instantly from above in that power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Drain_Knowledge
and
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_Drain

Wookieepedia would seem to disagree with you. So do I, btw.
Lets call it Drain Life then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
You claimed only Revan earned the respect of the Mandalorians. Or at least you managed to imply it. But the Exile and Bao-Dur earned respect too, though for different reasons than Revan.
No! I said that Revan was among those who earned respect of Mandalorians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
And actually, the Mandalorians' respect for Revan would only mirror the respect they had for Exar Kun. The Mandalorians actually joined Exar Kun in his crusade. They never did that for Revan, when he turned against the jedi.
Both events took place at different times and Exar Kun was planning to destroy Republic and Jedi, so his plans were similar as that of Mandalorians. So Mandalorians had a good enough reason to join him.

Last edited by S_W_LeGenD; 12-09-2006 at 07:43 PM.
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Old 12-09-2006, 08:26 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Of-course! Nihilus would have had his own defensive abilties but what are they exactly?
Not sure, but I'd be surprised if they were less than Yoda's, absorbing power apparently being what Nihilus does best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
And Force Storm can't be deflected like Force Lightning because it's style of hitting an opponent is different and their are many Lightning bolts in it coming straight on your head with massive intensity. And "Force Immunity" is not canon.
Electricity damage is electricity damage, no matter how you deliver it. You're either protected from or you're not. So coming from different angles might not matter a whole lot, unless you're using some sort of physical shield to deflect it, which is not relevant in this case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
They were still positioned many yards away from each other. And people can talk loud.
20-30 yards is already pushing it with a war quite literally going on outside.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Really? check this then: http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ouspwnsnx0.jpg (this image is from a Canon Novel of Sidious)

Does normal Lightning comes even close to intensity of this attack?
That's an impressive display of force lightning and no mistake. But yes, lightning does come close to that. The arc is just wider than usual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
And Game Mechanics are not good for proper explanation of Force Powers because they don't mirror canonical damage.
Well, I can scarcely argue with you there, because the "hit points" or "vitality" of d20 games is one of my own pet peeves with that system. Lightning should paralyze and cause horrible burns and so, as it did with Luke, but the game rules don't reflect that sort of thing at all, which is one reason why I really hate d20 rules. Still, if we abandon them completely, then we have no basis for discussion. Or we get to claim whatever with want to. Neither of which is very enlightening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
And some gameplay powers are not even canon like "Force Immunity" and "Force Heal". You don't heal your physical wounds with the Force and "Force Immunity" has never been demonstrated in canon materials. And "Force Deflect" is true canon defensive power and it is performed through hands.
Actually, I've always thought that Obi-Wan used Force Heal or some version of it on Luke, when he put his hand over him after the Sand People attack in Episode IV. Isn't it odd that Luke is struck down and lies there unconscious, apparently lifeless, but when Obi-Wan bends over him, he wakes up immediately? Definitely something going on there, I think. So it's not as if there is no basis in canon for claiming that. And if we accept Force Resistance, then it's easy to accept Force Immunity, since it really is just a more powerful version of the same ability. I'd say it's about the same ability as you call Force Deflect. Besides, I can find no entry for Force Deflect on Wookieepediea, whereas Force Immunity is right here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_Immunity

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
He tried to block it and look at his face expressions then. And he finally fell apart due to the sheer intensity behind Sidious's Lightining, so Yoda's defense was not successful.
It was, because Sidious never got to fire that lightning attack fully. He kept pushing for it, but then so did Yoda. The result was not that Yoda was fried. No. The result was that resonance of power between the two caused a burst that sent them both flying. Yoda just happened to be unlucky that this sent him flying to the bottom of the senate hall, whereas Sidious was able to hold onto the side of the "chair." Clearly the power is not unstoppable, and given Sidious' level of power with this ability, it's rather impressive that Yoda was able to keep it at bay at all. But he did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
I have not noticed that Force powers become more effective with "Leveling-Up". They do not actually.
Actually, most of them do, only you might not notice that, since the game balances all your enemies to reflect your new power level, and therefore nothing seems to change. If you don't want to argue game rules, then fair enough, but if you do, you should at least take a look at how those mechanics work first. It's not as if there aren't plenty of game guides out there that explain it all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Obi-Wan won through a surprising move!
Yes, but my point is that the rules don't reflect that possibility. D20 combat rules is just boring dice-rolling until someone drops dead. There is no surprise or strategy in them IMHO, which is my major problem with them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
And "Gameplay Mechanics" are also not good way to explain the effectiveness of Force Powers because they also involve D20 rules.
I actually agree with that, but I'll take it over having no frame of reference at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
- Yoda failed to successfully deflect it. I have explained the reason above.
You have claimed it, but you have not convinced me. It still seems obvious to me that Yoda blocked Sidious' attack. If you look carefully, you'll even see that Yoda wants to jump Sidious with his lightsaber, but Sidious zaps him, knocking his lightsaber out his hands. Yoda is right on the edge already, YET HE DOESN'T FALL OVER. In fact, had Yoda moved backwards at all, he would have fallen down already, so clearly lightning doesn't strike as strongly as you suggest. Sidious then pushes the attack, and Yoda begins to deflect it. As Sidious pushes forward and pours power into the attack, you'll note Yoda deflecting it and befriely leaning backwards from the assault, before he then begins actually PUSHING THE ATTACK BACK ON SIDIOUS. Indeed, he pushes it all the way back to Sidious' very hands, at which point the collision of power between the two of them "erupts" in a burst that sends them both flying. If you want to see it, the entire bit begins exactly 1 hour 48 minutes and 55 seconds into the movie on my dvd. And yes, I've just checked it again to make sure I'm right

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
- Mace's Vaapad gave him the advantage and others don't have this ability.
Ah, "uber-power not available to other people." Always nice. But wait, Obi-Wan deflected Dooku's lightning attack with HIS lightsaber in Episode II. Although you can claim that Sidious is more powerful, that does seem to speak against your point that Windu doing so is completely unique for that character alone, I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
- Luke was not powerful enough to block Sidious's Lightning attack even with his Light Saber, because even Yoda could not do this.
Just because Yoda didn't pull it off does not mean that it's not possible. Obi-Wan did it against Dooku, and Yoda and Sidious are both stronger than either of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
And Lightning kills you slowly but painfully because it works in a continuous fashion. But in KOTOR games, Lightning is not continuous, which is an additional reason that Lightning is not accurately mirrored in the games.
But suddenly Force Storm is instant in canon? Why? Because otherwise your argument is flawed? As others have pointed out, we actually don't know that Revan's use of Force Storm then wasn't a continuous lightning attack against the One's warriors and beasts either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
You can take an example of a "Force Storm" power demonstrated by Sidious in Dark Empire EU based event and that power was limitless and it destroyed an entire fleet. So my point stands that not all canon Force Powers are limited.
Although Leia that power is called Force Storm, it clearly is not the Force Storm power you have been describing here. And we certainly have no basis for claiming that Revan has that power. Especially not since Luke reveals that having used that power, Palpatine has unleashed a chaos that even he cannot control. Revan was always careful about that sort of thing - always the strategist, he never unleashed anything he couldn't control himself. That's why he never used the Star Forge to its full potential, after all.

So even then there are limits, because even Palpatine couldn't control that power, and obviously it did not destroy the entire Alliance fleet. Also, by merely focusing on separating Palpatine from his use of the power, Luke and Leia turn it on Palpatine himself. As impressive a display of destruction as it is, you really do have to admit that this very force storm is also what destroys Palpatine himself in that confrontation. So I don't think it's a power that Revan would ever use, and certainly not in a casual encounter with a few rakatan warriors and other beasts. And that's assuming Revan even has the power, which I find highly doutbful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD
Force Lightning in canonical reality kills slowly but painfully. Although, its more advanced variant like "Force Storm" kills more quickly because several bolts of Lightning hits an individual instantly from above in that power.
Ah, but you have no canonic use of Force Storm to support that claim. The only canonic use of Force Storm you have mentioned is a description by The One, and we have no idea how instant or continuous that Force Storm was. Force Lighting is instant in the game mechanics, just as Force Storm is. But you say lightning is more continuous in canon. Might the same not then also apply to force storm? That would seem to be a reasonable conclusion to me.


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Old 12-09-2006, 08:54 PM   #159
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Woah, lets stop at this point; Yoda stopped Sidious Lightning in the Senate Chamber, infact Yoda had pain on his face but then came back with a determined look on his face, and Sidious looked like he was struggling, it was a draw; - Sidious cought Yoda of guard once, and that didnt do jack to the little green master, and at the end they both fell back after the collision of LS and DS powers. You grossely over estimate the power of force lightning as in no star was film has it ever killed anyone (unless you count vader, but even then that was because it fried his life support circuits)

I cant be bothered arguing with your own stuborness and Jediphile is doing an admirable job (well done!)



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Old 12-10-2006, 12:42 AM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
"They tried to take you prisoner, but you unleashed your magic - what you called the Force - upon them. Seeing your power they bowed before you and brought you here to me."

"You came to us after defeating our scouts who confronted you, much as you have again this time. The One saw your power... and your desire for the knowledge inside the Temple."
QFE

That's what the One says about Revan's attack on the his scouts (I know because I checked the dialog files after ED posted that). There is absolutly no mention of Force Lightning or Force Storm. Just that Revan used her "magic" on them. Which could have been anything from pushing them with the Force to choking them to death.


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