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Old 12-10-2006, 06:01 PM   #1
UDM
 
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Balancing

I'm sure everyone finds the pistol and explosives pretty useless right now. Also, imho the blaster and rocket launcher are in serious need of balancing right now. First, I need to talk about Force Sense. I hope it will be made always active.

I would suggest the following for the weapons' primary and secondary attacks:

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Pistol: good for attacks of long and med range, bad for short range due to slow rate of fire

Pri attack: Opens up a "homing" reticle on the enemy that you're aiming at, similar to the rocket launcher's homing function. The reticle takes about 3 seconds to complete the revolution. Once that happens, releasing the fire button will make the pistol's projectile unblockable, but dodgeable. I suggest it cuts off not too much DP, but not too little. Maybe one shot will cut off about 6DP

Sec attack: Normal fire, about the same speed as the E-11

Evaluation: I would say this would make the pistol a good choice of a weapon for any merc, as its fast firing, and good against both Jedi and Mercs. The downside is that its ROF is slow, but it makes up for it with sheer accuracy
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E-11 blaster rifle: good for short range and medium range attacks, bad for long range attacks due to inaccuracy

Pri attack: like it is right now

Sec attack: not full auto, but a burst fire mode, like how the stormtroopers fire them. Fires about 8 projectiles every 2 seconds, but very inaccurate ie. spread is larger than normal fire and eats ammo for breakfast (takes up 12 ammo)

Evaluation: very standard gun for rifle buffs, can be a very useful tool in many situations. I'm guessing that pros at this gun may even score lots of kills for long range attacks, but newbies will definitely feel at home with short and med ranged attacks
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Bowcaster: average firepower for all range of attacks due to slightly lower damage than the blaster and disruptor

Pri attack: should use the secondary attack for this instead, since I've never used the primary attack before and the secondary attack has always been more practical for me

Sec attack: opens up a scope. I can help design the GUI for this. The Bowcaster, in scope mode, fires exactly like primary mode, but the difference is that you get to hit long distance targets more easily

Evaluation: a weapon that newbies may prefer due to its friendliness and ability to adapt in most situations. However, specialists in specific ranges may not choose this as it is a jack of all trades but a master of none
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Disruptor: average for all distances since long ranges make up for lack of speed with power, and med/short ranges make up for less power with more speed

Pri attack: as it is right now, damage and rate of fire comparable to Bowcaster and E11

Secondary attack: Opens up the scope too. However, I think we should just scrape the whole "charge up" thing because it's too impractical here. It takes too long to charge up, plus the DP damage is simply not worth it unless you're a killstealer. I think the Disruptor should fire at a slightly slower rate, but does more damage. This makes it more practical at a long distance, and at the same time, it does not turn into a second bowcaster with a different model

Evaluation: Like the bowcaster, the disruptor offers adequate firepower for all situations, and it is more effective at longer ranges, but it does not dominate because, despite the power offered when scoped, it can still be avoided by simple maneuvres
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Thermal Dets: good for all ranges, but hindered by time taken to explode and self-damage

Pri attack + sec attack: a room clearing device. Simply put, this should be a weapon of mass destruction, being able to crush a room of people. It's impact should be so large that even people from the other room take DP damage. Of course, the downturn to this is that YOU, the user, are not protected from it as well. Also, it takes about 5 seconds to explode (time it leaves your hand + time it takes to complete the beeping sound). It gives people the opportunity to RUN like hell, but not enough to completely escape unscathed. I suggest the Thermal Dets be made un-auto-force-pushable, as things may get very confusing

Evaluation: the most powerful weapon in-game, but also the most self-destructive one. It's a love-hate kind of weapon, and players wouldn't choose this as a weapon unless they've got plenty of escape plans, or they've got a tendency for watching huge explosions. Ok I'm kidding, most players would choose this
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Repeater: excellent for close range attacks

Pri attack: seems balanced enough right now ie. low DP damage, insane rate of fire

Secondary attack: wow this is very easily exploitable. The ball of energy cant be force pushed, nor can it be easily avoided as its radius of impact is quite big. I think the ball of energy should move in a straight line instead of an arc, and that it should move quite slowly. Damage and radius of impact should not be touched. This gives users a higher chance to escape from the full devastation of the ball. Also, should eat up slightly more ammo than it does now so users do not over-exploit this at closer ranges. People exploit this easily because it causes them to fall too, thus Jedi are at a disadvantage here. With Force Speed, however, we may be able to avoid certain death easily if we slow down the movement of the ball

Evaluation: an excellent weapon for short and med ranges, but its attacks fall in 2 different extremes. Pri attack falls under the "fast and furious but crap power" category. Secondary attack falls under the "devastating old man" category. In other words, it is a very powerful weapon, but easily countered using the right tactics. Most players would choose this because it feels fun to be a heavy infantry though, and it's also easy to score kills in the hands of an expert
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Golan Arms Flechette: excellent for close range and med range attacks

Pri Attack: Rate of fire should be increased, since it's possibly one of the most useless weapons right now imho, especially at longer ranges. Even at shorter ranges, it's not practical, as projectiles get deflected easily. Besides ROF, I think nothing else should be changed

Sec attack: The time taken for balls to explode should be 1 second after they come into contact with a surface, or instantaneous explosion once they touch another player. Balls should still be auto-pushable, or force pushable. I think the balls should also increase the radius of explosion, maybe slightly less than the current thermal dets' radius

Evaluation: It is a choice weapon for those who like to get up close and personal, and it also gives players ample protection when against hordes of enemies. Though it is rather useless at longer ranges, it is a pure killing machine when close to the enemy
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Rocket Launcher: excellent for med attacks, average for short range attacks, horrible long range attacks

Pri attack: fires at a rate of 1 every 2 seconds. Right now Pri attack makes it take tooooooo long. However, the speed of rockets should be slower, making it a poor long range weapon and the power of every rocket should be reduced as it moves out of the center of the point of explosion. This means that the enemy still suffers splash damage, but not as much as right now, where being anywhere near the radius will cause the enemy to fall.

Sec attack: charges up ammo and prepares to fire it, at a rate of +1 every 2 seconds, with a max of 4 missiles fireable at one shot. Every additional rocket loaded up into the firing chamber will have a "CLICK" sound to let the user know how many rockets he has ready to fire. Once the max number of rockets are in the firing chamber, the rocket launcher automatically fires the rockets. This means that players cannot exploit the system by always loading up rockets first before encountering an enemy. I got the idea from Unreal btw :P

Evaluation: It is a rocket launcher! Good for preparing your steak medium! The primary attack offers quick and devastating attacks, but it is easily avoidable due to the slow movement of the rockets and the fact that the rocket is most effective only when it scores a direct hit. It can be made up for, however, with the secondary mode of fire, whcih will most likely kill anything in its way. The downside is that, by the time you realize you need to use it and loaded it up with 3-4 rockets, you'd have already gotten your ass kicked
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Conc rifle: Good for long and med ranges, average for short range due to lower DP damage than the rocket launcher but offers kickback ability

Pri attack: Pri attack should offer more damage (notice the big ass rail/laser it fires) but at a slower rate and eats more DP. It offers a quart more damage than the disruptor's scoped mode suggested above, but it offers no scope and it is slower. Its damage should be somewhere between the disruptor's scoped mode and rocket launcher. Nevertheless, it offers massive kickback to propel enemies away. Can be easily countered by fast maneuvering enemies

Sec attack: Offers less kickback and less DP damage, but fires faster and eats less ammo

Evaluation: this should be an interesting weapon to use. It is powerful in itself, but not that powerful enough to score a kill all the time; it can used as a weapon for guerilla tactics due to both attacks. However, guerilla tactics can still be easily countered by a fast Jedi or a quick-fingered Merc (pistol, anyone?)
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Det packs

Pri attack and secondary attack should be left untouched. However, they can be countered ie. not an all killing device. I shall talk more about the bolded words below: Mercs can disarm det packs with seeker bots or simply shoot them, while Jedi can use Force Disable to disarm them

Now about those bolded words...

I think seeker bots are not really worth buying right now, besides being able to offer some small firepower assistance. However, they would be made more useful if given the ability to detect and destroy det packs or trip mines, if the mercs are lazy or fail to detect the det packs or trip mines

Also, a good force power to use would be Force Disable. I think we can borrow Tobe's force lightning effects for this, or we can use the Force Drain fx. This offers 2x-4x damage against bots, and is the only power capable of destroying det packs/tripmines, but does not hurt other players. To further its usefulness, I suggest it be able to deplete the merc's fuel more easily, and also being able to destroy his seeker bot, as well as slowing down the enemy's rate of fire (at a rate of 0.5-0.7, from level 1 to 3 respectively). Force Disable also kills thermal dets, but a level 3 Force Disable is required

I know I didn't mention tripmines and the EMP rifle, but that's because I'm lazy to. I never use the EMP rifle anyway lol, so if anyone's got suggestions, throw them in
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Old 12-11-2006, 01:31 AM   #2
razorace
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I like some of the ideas you have for the pistols and blasters but I don't think we'll have the Flechette or Repeater in OJP Enhanced. They just seem to be anti-jedi weapons and I don't think they'd be so useful vs jedi and not be seen in the movies or EU.


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Old 12-11-2006, 11:09 PM   #3
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I think it would be nice if detpacks and thermals could be countered with Force Push, as in Single Player.
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Old 12-12-2006, 02:03 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by razorace
I like some of the ideas you have for the pistols and blasters but I don't think we'll have the Flechette or Repeater in OJP Enhanced. They just seem to be anti-jedi weapons and I don't think they'd be so useful vs jedi and not be seen in the movies or EU.
I still think the repeater should be in with a clone rifle as the replacement. ITs just a feature thats too cool to pass up and I still worry about how reviewers will view having less overall weapons available. And it should be nearly out of range for beginner cost or have very low ammo to start.


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Old 12-14-2006, 03:33 AM   #5
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I think ultimately, it's best to make the weapons up to players' preferences. The list I have above has been carefully thought out to suit one's taste, so that no weapon dominates the game. It's the kind of situation where you can pop into the game and ask "Hey dude what kind of a killing machine do you want to be? Oh you like to be stealthy? Ok pistol's for you. Hey what about you? Oh you want to be a heavy gunner? No worries, pick either the Repeater or Rocket Launcher.", and everyone's happy with the weapons they choose. I'm hoping for a system whereby if there are too many pros on a weapon, then it will be offset by the cons
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Old 12-15-2006, 12:09 AM   #6
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Oh yeah, can we have Nightvision goggles for our dear mercs?
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Old 12-15-2006, 12:18 AM   #7
Lathain Valtiel
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I actually have an alternate suggestion for Pistol and Blaster. I'll copy it from my task ticket. It met with some approval on Meatgrinder:

Blaster Rifle -

Primary: A highly accurate three-round burst.

Secondary: An INaccurate full automatic mode, ridiculously fast.

Pistol -

Primary: Standard fire, turn it red and speed it up some, no?

Secondary: 'Stunning' effect. Chrage up a bolt (maybe blue), and, if you strike with it, it does significant DP damage and enhanced shield damage, but it cannot do health damage.

----

I also had two FP ideas, replicated here:

Seeing: Lv. 1 Seeing counters Lv. 1 Mind Trick, Lv. 2 countetrs up to Lv. 2, and so on. Furthermore, Seeing after Lv. 2 gives passive bonuses to DP usage, and can be considered a sort of minor precognition. At Lv. 2, attacks cost 5% less DP to dodge. At Lv. 3, they cost 10% less DP to dodge. I recommend that they cost 4, 6, and 8 skill points respectively.

Mind Trick: You are invisible as normal. However, landing a successful strike while invisible (obviously you only get one chance), causes that attack to drain more DP than normal. For Lv. 1, it's 25% more DP (x 1.25). For Lv. 2, 50% more DP (x 1.50). And for Lv. 3, it's a powerful 100% more DP (x 2.0). Make it cost a good amount of skill points, like 6, 8, and 8.

Sabers get a further DP boost if they successfully surprise attack. All boosts are tripled. Hence, at Lv. 1 a successful strike costs 75% (x 1.75) more DP to evade, at Lv. 2 it is 150% (x 2.5), and at lv. 3 it is 300% (x 4.0) more.


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Old 12-19-2006, 08:01 AM   #8
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I think there should be some Powers/Abilities that can only be bought for pure-sided players.

By this, I mean players who are full Gunner or full Jedi.

For example, if a gunner buys no Force powers at all, no Sense, no nothing, he gains access to a few special "Gunner-only" abilities. I was thinking the Flame Thrower could be one of these, since currently the Flame Thrower is a bit too powerful in combination with Saber/Force. This would balance that issue without having to make the Flame Thrower worthlessly weak.

Lightning would also be this way. CUrrently it's too easy to lightning and then shoot someone on the floor. This would get rid of that issue without having to make Lightning weaker.

A Clone Rifle could also fit into this type. A high-rate of fire blaster weapon that could shread things easily enough. This gun would be expensive and excluseive to gunners only.

Force Heal could also fall under this.

There's possiblity for more, but those four come to the top of my head. If this idea is liked I could write some more about abilities that would work well with a single-sided build.

I think the above idea would allow us to have powerful Jedi/Gunner abilties, without having to worry about them being overpowered when they mix together. But players still have the opition of mixing guns and Force, just without those abilities.



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Old 12-19-2006, 02:19 PM   #9
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That could work. I am hesitant about anything that restricts what combinations of weapons/powers players could use, but having a few special powers like that could work.

Before we do that, though, I think we should keep trying to balance an everyone-gets-everything system. I still think it can work.
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Old 12-20-2006, 03:38 AM   #10
Lathain Valtiel
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The problem with making such a system Cariss is the fact that such a gunner would be utterly helpless against Push, Pull, or Lightning unless they walk, which makes it easier for the Jedi to cut them down AND makes it harder to use that exclusive flamethrower in the first place. It's not as fair as you make it out to be.

Something like flamethrower should not be exclusive. It isn't powerful enough for that if we talk of exclusive vs. exclusive.

Example.

Exclusive Flamer vs. Exclusive Lightning: Lightning wins, because it can inflict knockdown and thus helplessness, leaving a person open for a finisher saber.

Exclusive Clone Rifle is not very good against Jedi, because speed of attack is irrelevant against them considering the fact that Bowcaster can't penetrate their defenses for a good while.


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Old 12-20-2006, 08:07 PM   #11
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I am against having uber weapons or skills that can be obtained in any way. Yes it gives an incentive for being a purist, but ultimately, you then have to re-consider the pros and cons against the opposite group of purists (merc vs Jedi). For example, if you want to give the Mercs a uber gun, then the Jedi must have something to make up for it too, in which case people will demand more and better force powers, which again is not going to be easy on Razor's part to programme in

As I've mentioned in my initial post, if you noticed, the secondary and primary fire modes are more or less equally balanced and offer different solutions for different situations. IMHO that's how we obtain an optimal balance - whereby there is a huge significant difference between weapons, yet subtle enough to remain balanced/evenly matched

Btw I've edited a few parts of my first post
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