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Old 06-17-2000, 03:09 PM   #1
paulbarnard
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Post Defense of ESB

Plot wise, it's the most complete. There are 2 major subplots...Luke and his training, and Han and Leia.

Technically, anything on Hoth was the hardest to do (black matte lines on a white field). Plus AT-AT's are just cool.

Episodes I and IV are introductory. No major developments. They intro us to all the players. Episode V is where everything develops. (as i hope Ep II is). Episode VI resolves everything. And Ewoks were suppose to be Wookies.

Most of Star Wars is predictable. Good defeats evil. The Guy gets the girl. Episode V twisted the plot. Did you really expect Han to end up with Leia back in the years leading up to ESB after ANH (78,79)? No. Did anyone expect Vader was Luke's father? NO. Did you expect the capture (and limbo status) of Han? NO.

Final point, which movie had the least done to it in terms of the special edition. V. That was the one George Lucas was most happy with.

That is why.


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Old 06-17-2000, 03:54 PM   #2
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Of course ESB is the best. All the others completely and utterly pale in comparision.

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Old 06-17-2000, 07:58 PM   #3
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Plz stop using Roman Numerals!

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Old 06-18-2000, 12:55 AM   #4
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Suuure... Mention all of the pros, without mentioning the cons. Anyone can win an arguement like that;

*Hoth and the black line effect; cheapened the whole introduction.
*Wompa; a muppet and a fuzzy arm, really scary.
*Predicatbility; it's quite hard to even remember when I was suprised when Han got frozen and when I found out that Vader was Luke's father.. waaaay to long ago. Now it has to be taken at face value.
*Speed; if a plot twist was this tedious in a novel, noone would read it.
*Yoda/Training; In the end, all Yoda served as was a distraction and he didn't even accomplish teaching Luke anything except for scaring the utter **** out of him.
*Cloud City; one enormous cop-out, when Lucas was writing his script, he needed somewhere to stage the events of the movies.
*Action; the only real action happened about ten minutes into the movie and the last ten minutes of the movie.

I love the trilogy as a whole and it really shouldn't be separated and disected. All I really want to know is what's so good about it and after being told, I still don't see it. I guess it's hard sometimes changing someone's mind.

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Old 06-18-2000, 01:08 AM   #5
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and tell me why ewoks are so great????

just cuz there are more midgets then people taller than 6'8" in the screen actors guild...that's the only reason why there are ewoks.



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Old 06-20-2000, 07:22 PM   #6
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So it had the black line effect. It was made in the early eighties. At least they tried in that one instead of going the cheap route and having another major battle in space where you can't see the black lines.

Chewbacca's nothing more than a man in a costume as well. All of the aliens in RotJ are just people in rubber costumes. The wampa actually looked very good, I thought.

Sure, now that you've seen the movies a few many times it isn't predicatable, but then you didn't see it coming. They're still pretty big scenes in the movie, also.

What, were you confused while watching the movie? Plot twists like that are usually what make a good book.

Uuh, Yoda actually taught Luke enough for him to face off with Vader. He could have taught Luke but he decided to leave and by the time he got back Yoda died. Yoda's one of the best characters in Star Wars. Leave him alone.

That's probably true for most of the locations. He needed someplace to put the Rebel base, so he came up with Yavin 4 and Hoth. Same with everything else. Cloud City looked pretty cool, what's your problem with that.

It seemed like there was a lot of action to me. The Battle of Hoth; Luke's failure in the 'caaaaaave' ; the Falcon racing through the asteroid field getting away from the Imperials, then being chased out by a space slug; Leia, Lando, and Chewie chasing down Boba Fett, then fighting out of Cloud City; Luke fighting Darth Vader and then finding out his enemy was his father; the constant problems with the hyperdrive on the Falcon whenever they're in trouble; the race to fix the hyperdrive before they were captured by the Executor, etc. There's plenty of action.

Also, the acting was best in this movie. They were really getting into their roles; even Mark Hamill was doing a fairly decent job! We finally get to see the Emperor, and we finally get to see the Empire kick butt. What's not to like?

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Old 06-21-2000, 01:55 AM   #7
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I thought it was the best movie plot wise. Of course when I was a young stallion, I hated ESB cause there wasn't much action. But now i know the value of the acting and such. I love it.

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Old 06-21-2000, 02:28 AM   #8
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ESB was the first one I saw as a young viceroy to be.

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Old 06-25-2000, 04:47 PM   #9
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I used to like ROTJ best due to all the action, but now ESB is my choice for all the reasons stated above. It is the best of the original trilogy. I don't understand why people think its bad.
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Old 06-26-2000, 09:12 PM   #10
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I used to like ROTJ the best as well.

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Old 06-27-2000, 05:30 AM   #11
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I used to think ESB was the worst and ROTJ is the best. Then I grew up (really, I'm not trying to be offensive to anyone, but that is how I see it). I watched it again and discovered it was incredibly well done, which I had pretty much missed all the times I had watched it before.

Sometimes I enjoy pure actionless plot development more than action. I love to see characters evolve. As much as I enjoy EP1, every character in it is static. I'm really hoping they manage to develop Obi-Wan and Anakin really well in the next one.

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Old 06-29-2000, 08:42 AM   #12
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Im not knocking ESB - I mean, the story that gave us the Battle of Hoth, imperial walkers, and that was the inspiration for Shadows of the Empire
Sorry, but Return of the Jedi is by FAR the best :
You have all the great sequences - land battle, space battle, a death star, and melee at the start, storyline, characters, twists and the greatest asset - emotion - 'If you will not turn, then maybe she will !' - WHAT A LINE, and some GREAT acting. If you have ever watched the remastered (I have FINALLY got a copy) then you will have seen the added 3 seconds here and there that add to the atmosphere - eg :
On the deathstar when luke says you have failed your highness, originally the emperor immedialty started his line, but instead, they look at the emperoro for his reaction, then go back to luke to show how serious and sure he is, and THEN the emperor can hold out no more.
Leia and Luke - related. Han and Leia finally get it together. The feelings and emotion injected was immense !
The ending sequence - Ewoks, jedi masters, pilots, wookies, and you see the t-16, coruscant, tatooine free of oppression - the film has something for everyone, and will ALWYS remaon my favourite, especially because it is the film in which we get to see my fave fighter in action - the B-Wing assualt bomber !
And to cap it all off, that Luke is no-longer a 'wanna' be, not even the last of the old jedi order, but he is in actual fact the first of the new jedi........
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Old 06-30-2000, 04:06 AM   #13
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This will date me...but i've seen all 3 movies in the theatres....the year they were first released (77, 80 and 83). And ESB will always be better. Had the least done to it in the Special Edition. ROTJ will always rate as fourth best (yes, i rate Ep I ahead of it) for the simple reason, EWOKS SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Old 07-04-2000, 11:26 AM   #14
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If ewoks are such crappy (excuse langauge) little hait balls that are hated so much, why did they ahve 2 very popular films of their own :
Battle for Endor
Caravan of Courage
HAHAHAHAHA !
NOW who sucks !
Ewoks are brave, clever, cute and can improvise and use ANYTHING !

And for the Ewoks themselves, Wicket - 'Echawawa Mutha F...'

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!

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Old 07-05-2000, 03:13 AM   #15
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Every seriously watch those movies???? They suck. They were totally there to keep the toy line alive. didn't work. the line fell.

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Old 07-05-2000, 03:39 AM   #16
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I didn't like the Ewoks or Droids cartoons either. They confused me as a small child.

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Old 07-05-2000, 05:36 AM   #17
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The original trilogy should be considered as such. Episode 4 it's basically an introduction, in 5 the plot thickens and the story takes a darker twist. The last fact maybe the reason that a lot of people don't like it or not rate it as high as the other ones. In episode 6 we have the climax of the story and of course better filming and FX tech. Although ROTJ is still my best, I still rate the battle of Yavin as the best space action sequence.



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Old 07-05-2000, 10:00 AM   #18
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No, trilogy should be considered as thus :
It works out like an opera (Well, star wars is classed as a 'space opera').
Episode 4 was the first act, introdcing the charactures and the setiing, giving you the premise of the series, and handing alot of it to you on a a plate.
Episode 5 is as most operas or greek tradegy - **** hits the fan, and the good guys get stung badly. Things go sour as plans are turned bad, escapes are not as great as believed, and one of the main characters is lost.. roll on Episode 6...
Episode 6 - WE strike back ! After a close call in retrieving our friend Han, the fleet gets ready for a potential suicidal and f rather final battle. again, emotions and special attachments risks the missions, and the good guys look as if they wont make it, but the bad guys over confidence shines throw as a beacon of their inferiority, and fuels the good guys resiliance. As such, even against over wheleming odds, and wit masses of luck, we suceed.
Freedom is restored, relatives are reunited and a new order begins....
And above all, ROTJ shows that when races unite, they can accomplish anything, and taht united is ALWAYS superior to facist xenophobic orders.

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Old 07-06-2000, 03:35 AM   #19
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That's Why ESB is better. Because Star Wars as a whole is fairly predictable (good will win in the end). The fact that ESB is the middle, and must be the darkest...must be the climax.

I had this argument on my dorm floor before. The Climax of the Trilogy is the Vader/Luke duel of ESB and the famous often over used line. Each movie has a different climax...in ESB we could never agree if it was when Leia said i loved you or when luke decided to go to Bespin....but that's another post....

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Old 07-06-2000, 05:50 PM   #20
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my ratings
1.ESB
2.ROTJ
3.TPM
4.ANH
1.Han and Leia got together in ESB if you remember, not ROTJ.

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Old 07-07-2000, 08:36 AM   #21
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1) When I said 'get together', I mean taht they are finally clear that they love each other and there Luke is not in the way, in which case it happened in ROTJ
2) How can you POSSIBLY rate TPM higher than ANH. The original trilogy will ALWAYS be better than the prequel trilogy, and as such should ALWAYS come higher.
I realise that ANH was kinda poor compared to others, but the Yavin Sequence rescues it, ESPECIALLY the remastered X-Wing sequence (Any one iwth a set will know what I mean - the new Fly-by sequence).

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Old 07-07-2000, 10:23 AM   #22
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TPM is better than ANH, simply because ANH is a very slow paced movie and very little actually happens in it. I remember reading the TPM novel at the beginning of May (May 1999) and thinking about how much happened before the pod race alone.

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Old 07-07-2000, 01:54 PM   #23
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My point exactly Newty Boy
The new X-wing fly by wasn't that special. It had only a few different shots in it. The others really had a lot more story to them.

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Old 07-12-2000, 07:21 AM   #24
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EXCUSE ME !
I think that if you had REALY watched ANH:SE, then you will have noticed how the readdition of biggs and the longer x-wing flyby added plenty :
1) The Fly-by -
One of my personnal favourite additions of the whole set. The larger number of ships is more believable, and gives a greater semse of finality - that they are throwing in all they have and that it is now or never.
2) Biggs :
The rebels were never really a group whom looked cohesive as such. It was people brought together by a common cause, but with Biggs back, it added new depth - that they werent all necessarily strangers, but friends, family, may be a son and father, or 2 freinds from a quieter time.
HA ! 'Didnt add much.' - rubbish !
You give me a new addition - even if 2 seconds long, and I will give you what it added - im good at this kinda thing.
Next......

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